Star Trek: Enterprise Forums

UPN (ended 2005)

The Borg

  • Avatar of SRP76

    SRP76

    [21]Apr 22, 2006
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    beowulf579 wrote:

    "What Are Little Girls Made Of?"
    Androids a plenty, though I think they are pretty much all gone by the end of this ep
    "I, Mudd"
    Again...a whole culture of androids.

    This would show that Data is indeed either able to forget, or he just never saw this info before. Now, deep down I think the odds of Data researching info on androids about 100 years ago higher than what happened on the First Enterprise two centuries ago.


    Just because Data doesn't mention something, doesn't mean he doesn't know about it. Why WOULD he bring these andriods up? They were FAR less sophisticated than Lore and Data. There was a passing resemblance, nothing more.

    It would be like one of us saying that we're not alone, because "there were once some CroMagnons" at thus-and-such a place. You wouldn't consider a CroMagnon to be "one of you". Why would Data feel a kinship toward these robots?
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  • Avatar of beowulf579

    beowulf579

    [22]Apr 22, 2006
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    And thats the whole point basically. Even if Data knew of the Enterprise Incident two hundred years before. He may have not connected the Borg of today with what happened two hundred years earlier when Archer and crew defeated some cyborgs.
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  • Avatar of beowulf579

    beowulf579

    [23]Apr 22, 2006
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    SRP76 wrote:
    beowulf579 wrote:

    "What Are Little Girls Made Of?"
    Androids a plenty, though I think they are pretty much all gone by the end of this ep
    "I, Mudd"
    Again...a whole culture of androids.

    This would show that Data is indeed either able to forget, or he just never saw this info before. Now, deep down I think the odds of Data researching info on androids about 100 years ago higher than what happened on the First Enterprise two centuries ago.


    Just because Data doesn't mention something, doesn't mean he doesn't know about it. Why WOULD he bring these andriods up? They were FAR less sophisticated than Lore and Data. There was a passing resemblance, nothing more.

    It would be like one of us saying that we're not alone, because "there were once some CroMagnons" at thus-and-such a place. You wouldn't consider a CroMagnon to be "one of you". Why would Data feel a kinship toward these robots?


    Oh..real quick. Data did feel a connecting to those little robots that where a part of that mining operation. Sorry, I forget the ep.
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  • Avatar of alex20020712

    alex20020712

    [24]Apr 22, 2006
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    beowulf579 wrote:
    Ok...then how about this. In the Next Generation we are introduced to Lt. Cmdr. Elizabeth Shelby. She is considered the Borg expert. Expert?? How could that be. Just about any of the bridge crew has just as much expierence as she could have. Heck, they at least encountered the Borg. All Shelby has is their accounts and records to go on.

    So, being the expert in the Borg that she is. Perhaps she got some extra info on them from somewhere.


    You are reaching. It is not necessary for Shelby to have some "extra info." Being an "expert" simply means she spent a lot of time studying whatever data the Enterprise (1701-D) collected from their first encounter, and coming up with scenarios and possible defenses.

    Besides, Shelby having "extra info," would not "fix" everything that was wrong with Regeneration.

    beowulf579 wrote:
    Also, in regards to Data not knowing the Borg from any historical info. He isn't perfect, and besides...he would be researching for anything in extra-federation space. He probally didn't access ALL info available.


    You are missing my point. At *no time* on TNG was there *any* reference whatsoever to Starfleet meeting cybernetic organisms that are rather relentless in taking over other organisms and technology, who also sent a signal to the Delta Quadrant which Archer and his crew *clearly* consider an invitation for an invasion.

    The only way to reconcile this nonsense with established Star Trek history is to presume that Enterprise happens in a different universe, which defeats the idea of seeing the beginning of the Federation. In short, the writers SCREWED UP, BIG TIME, and no amount of rationalizations can fix that.

    beowulf579 wrote:
    And remember, Data always feels alone. Alone!! Based on the logic here, he should know of all the android/machine based lifeforms that Kirk and company encountered. But for some reason he doesn't...plot hole?? You be the judge.


    No, Data considers himself the only POSITRONIC android.

    Except for Lore and B-4. Personally, I think Lore was OK, but B-4 was overkill. Reminds me of Superman being the only survivor of Krypton, until his dog and an entire city showed up.
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  • Avatar of beowulf579

    beowulf579

    [25]Apr 22, 2006
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    *You are reaching. It is not necessary for Shelby to have some "extra info." Being an "expert" simply means she spent a lot of time studying whatever data the Enterprise (1701-D) collected from their first encounter, and coming up with scenarios and possible defenses.

    Besides, Shelby having "extra info," would not "fix" everything that was wrong with Regeneration.

    ~I don't think I am. Under that thought, Data could be called an expert on the Borg. He seen all the info on the Borg and had first hand expierence with them. And granted..it wouldn't fix all the problems with Regeneration. My gosh I wish the writers would have spent just a little time and put section 31 in there.

    *You are missing my point. At *no time* on TNG was there *any* reference whatsoever to Starfleet meeting cybernetic organisms that are rather relentless in taking over other organisms and technology, who also sent a signal to the Delta Quadrant which Archer and his crew *clearly* consider an invitation for an invasion.

    ~Just because there wasn't any reference doesn't mean it never happened. Also...relentless. The Borg on Ent was hardly that. Phase pistols took them out and a few well placed bombs finished them. Phlox's own biology resisted them and it took awhile for full assimulation to have happened.

    *The only way to reconcile this nonsense with established Star Trek history is to presume that Enterprise happens in a different universe, which defeats the idea of seeing the beginning of the Federation. In short, the writers SCREWED UP, BIG TIME, and no amount of rationalizations can fix that.

    ~Hardly, making an excuse of a different universe is a cheap cop out. Now the writers didn't do enough..but a little, ( and a little is all you got it would seem) imagination and The Borg in Ent is possible. Won't win any continuity awards in writing..but still.

    *No, Data considers himself the only POSITRONIC android.

    ~And where did he say this at in reference to any or all other artificial lifeforms?
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  • Avatar of alex20020712

    alex20020712

    [26]Apr 22, 2006
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    beowulf579 wrote:
    ~Just because there wasn't any reference doesn't mean it never happened.


    In this case, it does.

    beowulf579 wrote:
    Also...relentless. The Borg on Ent was hardly that. Phase pistols took them out and a few well placed bombs finished them. Phlox's own biology resisted them and it took awhile for full assimulation to have happened.


    Relentless does not mean unstoppable. As I remember it, just a couple of drones caused a lot of trouble for Archer, and he is already talking about an invasion. What does he do about it? He forgets to file a report, apparently. So does the doctor and everyone else. All the information about it just disappears. This is absurd.

    beowulf579 wrote:
    ~Hardly, making an excuse of a different universe is a cheap cop out.


    And using the Borg on Enterprise is not?

    beowulf579 wrote:
    Now the writers didn't do enough..but a little, ( and a little is all you got it would seem) imagination and The Borg in Ent is possible. Won't win any continuity awards in writing..but still.


    Imagination is not enough to fix those problems. The "solutions" proposed have as many holes as the problems, and are just as unbelievable.

    beowulf579 wrote:
    ~And where did he say this at in reference to any or all other artificial lifeforms?


    I do not have every episode memorized word for word, but if I come across it, I will let you know.
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  • Avatar of beowulf579

    beowulf579

    [27]Apr 22, 2006
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    Would recommend this for everyone..it seems like a good resource; http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg_history#Origin
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  • Avatar of alex20020712

    alex20020712

    [28]Apr 23, 2006
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    beowulf579 wrote:
    Would recommend this for everyone..it seems like a good resource; http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg_history#Origin


    "Of course the problem can be vaguely explained away, stating that the events of First Contact and 'Regeneration' had changed the timeline for future (Voyager) episodes, this was by no means an intention of the creators."

    Vaguely explained. Change in the timeline. Not the intention of the writers.

    Case closed.

    I would recommend the entire Memory Alpha site. Though not perfect or 100% accurate, it is probably the most comprehensive Star Trek reference sites.
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  • Avatar of beowulf579

    beowulf579

    [29]Apr 23, 2006
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    That site is very good. It's a good online reference.

    The biggest problem was the failure of the writers and everyone basically is not planning for a long drawn out series of trek shows. If the guys back in the late 80's had some idea of how far these stories would go..I am sure they would have prepared for Borg continuity better.
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  • Avatar of alex20020712

    alex20020712

    [30]Apr 24, 2006
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    beowulf579 wrote:
    That site is very good. It's a good online reference.

    The biggest problem was the failure of the writers and everyone basically is not planning for a long drawn out series of trek shows. If the guys back in the late 80's had some idea of how far these stories would go..I am sure they would have prepared for Borg continuity better.


    It is not the responsibility of a writer to anticipate how other writers will mess with the story in the future. It is the responsibility of the other writers to respect the original material and build on it, not contradict it.
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    aolhater

    [31]Dec 7, 2006
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    I saw Regeneration. I don't give a hoot what anybody says, I say that episode was awesome.
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    bigds9fan

    [32]Dec 10, 2006
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    The episode did have several plot holes. However, plausible explanations can be offered for some of them.

    The Borg being less effective could have been because they were buried in ice for so long. As for the phase pistols havinjg so much effect on them despite them being obsolete makes sense too. A friend of mine once encountered a virus on his pc.

    His virus software could not deal with it but he still had older software that he ran and it did remove the virus. It was so old that newer programmes just forgot about as they never expected anyone to use such an archaic virus. The Borg were used to dealing with 24th century phases and not that old stuff so they were not even prepared for it.

    Phlox's immune system was strong enough to fight the nano probes and probably the Borg never learned about Denobulans as they only learn by assimlating. We never saw Denobula in TNG or any other Star Trek show so they could either be a minor player in the Federation which explains the Borg do not know everything about them.

    As for Phox coming up with an alternate treatment. Why is that so odd. I mean he thought fighting the nano probes as an infection and then he thought he should view it as an engeneering problem. It is very likely that Crusher never thought of that.

    All this took place BEFORE the the Federation was founded so the info would not be in the Federation data base and so that info would not nessecarily be in a ships database. And Section 31 could have easily covered it up. Any Admiral could have ordered Archer and his crew never to discuss it and kept it out of the logs.

    And it is easy for people to forget about a threat when it is not a visible one. The  U.S.S. Defiant was the first ship of a proposed battle fleet that could fight the Borg. The project was shelves when design problems began to pop up and when the Borg threat seemed less urgent.

    We do not care much about the future our children face either, I mean we pollute this planet and spend its resources like there is no tomorrow. Eventually (I predict within 50 to 100 years) we will run out of oil and other vital resources and humanity will be in great trouble.

    So it seems likely that Starfleet disgerageded the message the Borg sent to their homeworld. Even IF the message got trough it would be at least a century before the Borg would come back. Why worry about something like that?


    I found this to be a really good episode that redeemed the Borg after Voyager. Voyager turned the Borg into wusses that could be walked over at all times. It was a disgrace to see that. A Borg cube that could easily take on an entire fleet of Starships in First Contact (including the Defiant) is run over by Voyager. The Voyager that constantly gets outgunned and beaten by the Kazon who were little more than space thugs (even the Borg did not consider them worthy of assimilation).


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    scifinut99

    [33]Dec 13, 2006
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    lobomensch wrote:
    I do agree with all of the points you made in your note, Kirke, though I do have a very hard time reconciling it with the continuty, esepcially in regards to "Q Who?" My biggest pet peeve that you did address was Starfleet somehow forgetting it, though the Section 31 idea would help explain it. Amazing how Zephrem Cochrane, Lily etc. didn't leave any observations about them either.



    actuly zefram cochrene did leave some info on the borg the people just ignored him because they thought he was a carzy drunk
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  • Avatar of alex20020712

    alex20020712

    [34]Dec 13, 2006
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    bigds9fan wrote:
    The episode did have several plot holes. However, plausible explanations can be offered for some of them.


    If you can only plug some of the holes on a boat, the boat is going to sink. Furthermore, some holes are too big to plug.
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    ganados

    [35]Dec 14, 2006
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    If Voyager episode Threshhold isn't considered canon then it's up to viewers to decide if Regeneration ad Aqcuisition are to.
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  • Avatar of alex20020712

    alex20020712

    [36]Dec 14, 2006
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    ganados wrote:
    If Voyager episode Threshhold isn't considered canon then it's up to viewers to decide if Regeneration ad Aqcuisition are to.


    Not even the writers consider Threshold canon!
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  • Avatar of ganados

    ganados

    [37]Dec 19, 2006
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    alex20020712 wrote:
    ganados wrote:
    If Voyager episode Threshhold isn't considered canon then it's up to viewers to decide if Regeneration ad Aqcuisition are to.
    Not even the writers consider Threshold canon!

    Braga wrote it and then later on said it was terrible and full of bad science and then years later comes up with a TV show that gets canned called Threshold. Behold the talent that sunk Star Trek!

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    sagostinho

    [38]Jan 31, 2007
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    I have just watched this episode and I liked it a lot it. I don't know why all the harsh critics. Ok, the Phlox resistance to Borg stuff, and the weapons working too good on the Borg was little far fetched, but it doesn't seem to be that this episode contradicts the remaining series.
    Why didn't the future humans know about the Borg? Simple, because you are assuming that Enterprise events occur before TNG. Confused? While these events do occur chronologically before TNG, they might occur after the effects of the First Contact movie. Putting it simply: this is another time line! This is the time line changed by the First Contact, not the original time line that preceded TNG. As such, this not has to be coherent to the other series. It is not easy to understand, I know, but you think about it, it is not that illogical (it is somewhat like Terminator plot).
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    alex20020712

    [39]Feb 1, 2007
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    sagostinho wrote:
    Putting it simply: this is another time line!


    No, it is not. Not according to the writers, anyway. They insisted Enterprise does not take place in an alternate universe or timeline.
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    sagostinho

    [40]Feb 1, 2007
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    Ok, I wasn't aware of that. I that case, it really doesn't make sense (A pity, if it was true, it could also be used to explain other discrepancies, such as NX-01's name.)
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