Datas child

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    port5170

    [1]Feb 7, 2006
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    saw the episode where Data makes a android, and when Starfleet tries to take her , she feels fear then malfunctions.. I think this was one of the better episodes, anyone else like this one
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    reachums

    [2]Feb 8, 2006
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    I think it's my favorite NG episode
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    lobomensch

    [3]Feb 9, 2006
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    I liked "The Offspring," too, was a moving episode. One thing I didn't care for about it was after Data's rights had already been established as a sentient being able to make his own choices had already been decided, the writer chose to ignore it and have Lal suddenly being confiscated from him. That went against the whole premise of androids having rights as a race once there was more than Data, that Picard established in "Measure Of A Man," and really seemed hackneyed. Frakes was able to pull it off without it becoming too overtly sentimental or maudlin.
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    BeautifulAkimov

    [4]Apr 30, 2006
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    lobomensch wrote:
    I liked "The Offspring," too, was a moving episode. One thing I didn't care for about it was after Data's rights had already been established as a sentient being able to make his own choices had already been decided, the writer chose to ignore it and have Lal suddenly being confiscated from him. That went against the whole premise of androids having rights as a race once there was more than Data, that Picard established in "Measure Of A Man," and really seemed hackneyed. Frakes was able to pull it off without it becoming too overtly sentimental or maudlin.


    I think that only Data was defined as a sentient being; not all androids. Also in "The Measure of a Man" Picard said something to the effect that a human made Data, and that's part of what made him sentient...but Data who is an android made another android, which might cross out that since Data made Lal, then she isn't sentient, so she doesn't have the right to choose.
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    lobomensch

    [5]May 1, 2006
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    Show where Lal isn't sentient though. Lal was aware of her own existence in making choices (such as the body selection scene) not to mention displaying the characteristic of curiosity, which only sentient beings display.
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    BeautifulAkimov

    [6]May 1, 2006
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    lobomensch wrote:
    Show where Lal isn't sentient though. Lal was aware of her own existence in making choices (such as the body selection scene) not to mention displaying the characteristic of curiosity, which only sentient beings display.


    I didn't really say she wasn't. In "the Measure of a Man" episode, Data was claimed to be just an android before he was defined as being a sentient being. Seeing as Data is also aware of his existence, and could make his own choices.
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    lobomensch

    [7]May 1, 2006
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    BeautifulAkimov wrote:

    I didn't really say she wasn't.
     

    BeautifulAkimov wrote:
    .but Data who is an android made another android, which might cross out that since Data made Lal, then she isn't sentient, so she doesn't have the right to choose.

    By that standard, then, after the ruling on Data, and Lal's showing her capacity to make her own choices also qualifies her as a sentient being and that would disqualify her from being property of Starfleet.  The case was the hinge this episode was built around and in that it failed to show where this Admiral was to be given the autonomous authority over Lal -- it violated the very precept of what had been established before.  Sloppy continuity but still a good episode.

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    Baucon_Batista

    [8]May 16, 2006
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    Probably one of my favorite stories in the entire ST universe.
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    SRP76

    [9]May 16, 2006
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    I think they completely missed the boat with both "are androids people, too?" episodes.

    Let's say that they ARE "just robots", have NO rights, NO identity, and ARE just property.

    Now, how does Starfleet figure that they are STARFLEET property? Soong built Data. If Data belongs to ANYBODY, it's Soong, NOT Starfleet. "Oh, but we landed, and nobody was around, so we figured it would be okay to just take the android". Yeah, right. Just because Bob isn't home when you walk into his backyard and take his motorcycle, does NOT mean that the bike is YOURS!

    Lal was even MORE clear-cut; her creator was RIGHT THERE! If Lal is property, she is DATA'S property, not Starfleet's.

    What Starfleet was doing was saying that "if it happens in the Federation, it belongs to the Federation". Yeah. That's like the United States government going to Bob's house (Bob sure gets around), and telling him that the workbench he built for his garage was "property of the U.S. government". Obviously, this doesn't work.

    Technically, Starfleet should have been making NO claims on Data OR Lal, in the first place!
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    lobomensch

    [10]May 17, 2006
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    That's exactly what irked me about these episodes, SRP, the assertion of property without any real legitimate claim to begin with. About the only excuse that could be given in regards to Lal was that she was manufactured with materials replicated on Enterprise, but even that has to be disallowed granted an officer's "replicator allowance" - if that were the case, then Starfleet could claim every meal someone would eat as theirs let alone Lal. Both instances of Berman vomit just really yuppified Starfleet from where Roddenberry first had it, treating the Enterprise crew like corporate "employees" rather than skilled professionals who also had individual rights.
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    jimisalive24

    [11]Jun 21, 2006
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    Well what I interpreted from The Offspring was that even though Data had been found to be sentient in Measure of a Man he was not fully able to grasp human cultural interactions and, as Lal had advanced beyond Data's own "humanity",  he was also not deemed to be fully capable of being in  control of Lal scientifically. It was for these reasons that Starfleet research was going to take control of Lal's development. To me this indicated that Starfleet was acting as if they were a state taking control of the child to transfer the child to foster care due to the parent being unfit not as if they owned Lal in the same sense as was portrayed in Measure of a Man.
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    lobomensch

    [12]Jun 23, 2006
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    In a sense though, "Measure Of A Man" did find for Picard's making the case that as a species, they had the right to self-determination - their own evolution, so to speak. Just because Lal showed more potential than Data, doesn't negate it, it only reinforces what was decided there.
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    GodEmperorJason

    [13]Jun 28, 2006
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    What irked me most was how she was never, to my recollection, mentioned again
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    DistantWords

    [14]Jul 16, 2006
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    GodEmperorJason wrote:
    What irked me most was how she was never, to my recollection, mentioned again

    Well, Data did tell his "mom" (so to speak) in the 7th season "Inheritance"...

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    TheOrangeKid007

    [15]Jul 21, 2006
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    Comparing The Offspring to Measure of a Man is unwise.  The writers have 2 different intents in these episodes.  Measure of a Man is more Philosophical while The Offspring, at least for me, evokes an emotional repsonse to one's idea of self.  Both awesome episodes
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    lobomensch

    [16]Jul 25, 2006
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    Both still dealt with the rights of the individual (Data/Lal) vs. the desires of the State. (Starfleet) They both had their own emotional angle as well, that is where the difference came in.
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    Species_125

    [17]Aug 1, 2006
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    Didn't you know?  Starfleet is the 24th Century version of The American Dream... they own whatever they want to own.
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    lobomensch

    [18]Aug 2, 2006
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    All we need for the Federation to meet that dream is loving money more than life itself and shoving religious opinions down everyone's throat.
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    king_wah

    [19]Oct 6, 2007
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    I have just watched this episode for the first timeand I have to say if you did not cry at the end when she said 'I love you father' and Data could not respond, then I suggest you check your pulse . You cannot have a heart.
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