Do you think we'll have TNG travel capibilities...

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    TelFan7

    [21]May 14, 2007
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    Tronman100 wrote:
    banyon wrote:

    AFAICT, special relativity holds that the speed of light is constant and independent of the relative positions of observers, but does not impose any limit upon exceeding the value of that constant by some other means.

    Again, any explanation woud be helpful, as opposed to some unspecific categorical "Eh, it's specific relativty, that's all I can say."

    Well, its not my job to try and convince anyone but this stipulation of special relativity is well documented and explained with some google research, and there is a nice explanation on Howstuffworks.com

    banyon wrote:

    With respect to the telportation, you naysaying again is unconvincing. To say that it's not the kind of teleportation that we would eventually need to beam people up is obvious. It does, however represent a leap forward in an area that previously would've be ridiculed just 15 years earlier. Just like there was a Newton for Aristotle and Einstein for Newton, there will be someone else to come along to help us reconceptualize our current paradigm. It is the way that science has ever worked.

    Maybe, but all I can do is go by evidence, and at the moment I just don't see how the "teleporting" as its happening now will evolve to Star Trek teleporting.



    The type of teleporting done in "Star Trek" would actually kill you since it uses different atoms at the destination and not your own original ones. Just like a fax machine doesn't send it's ink or lasering and paper to the other fax machine, the other just uses it's own. So the person after the teleportation process at point B would really be a new person who just looks, acts, and has the memories of the point A person, who may or may not be original also depending on whether or not they teleported before or not. In other words if anyone offers to teleport you the "Star Trek" way say "NO, THANK YOU, I'll fly (air or space), (and if on the same planet) drive, take a bus or train, or walk!!"

    The only safe way to teleport is like the way Hiro from "Heroes" does it, and the "Wrinkle In Time" way by bending space and bringing two points together so you won't have to take your atoms apart. I wonder if String-Theory has a safe way to do it? And what about Quantum Teleportation? If anyone here nows about the varies ways to teleport and which are the safer ways and which are the more dangerous ways please tell!!!
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    Tronman100

    [22]May 14, 2007
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    TelFan7 wrote:
    The type of teleporting done in "Star Trek" would actually kill you since it uses different atoms at the destination and not your own original ones. Just like a fax machine doesn't send it's ink or lasering and paper to the other fax machine, the other just uses it's own. So the person after the teleportation process at point B would really be a new person who just looks, acts, and has the memories of the point A person, who may or may not be original also depending on whether or not they teleported before or not. In other words if anyone offers to teleport you the "Star Trek" way say "NO, THANK YOU, I'll fly (air or space), (and if on the same planet) drive, take a bus or train, or walk!!" The only safe way to teleport is like the way Hiro from "Heroes" does it, and the "Wrinkle In Time" way by bending space and bringing two points together so you won't have to take your atoms apart. I wonder if String-Theory has a safe way to do it? And what about Quantum Teleportation? If anyone here nows about the varies ways to teleport and which are the safer ways and which are the more dangerous ways please tell!!!

    That's pretty much the way it seems to me too (though I googled it and I think a star trek transporter acutally uses the original atoms transmitted, not ones at the destination). As far as I know, Quantum Teleportation won't evolve into it either (based on the little reading up on it I've done). Again, for string theory, I only know a tiny bit and am not really well versed it it. I did write a "speculative" paper though (not anything formal, just for fun) on some properties of the universe that would have to exist and be exploited into for teleportation to be possible, I'll see if I can find it.

    Edited on 05/14/2007 1:51pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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    TelFan7

    [23]May 14, 2007
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    Tronman100 wrote:

    TelFan7 wrote:
    The type of teleporting done in "Star Trek" would actually kill you since it uses different atoms at the destination and not your own original ones. Just like a fax machine doesn't send it's ink or lasering and paper to the other fax machine, the other just uses it's own. So the person after the teleportation process at point B would really be a new person who just looks, acts, and has the memories of the point A person, who may or may not be original also depending on whether or not they teleported before or not. In other words if anyone offers to teleport you the "Star Trek" way say "NO, THANK YOU, I'll fly (air or space), (and if on the same planet) drive, take a bus or train, or walk!!" The only safe way to teleport is like the way Hiro from "Heroes" does it, and the "Wrinkle In Time" way by bending space and bringing two points together so you won't have to take your atoms apart. I wonder if String-Theory has a safe way to do it? And what about Quantum Teleportation? If anyone here nows about the varies ways to teleport and which are the safer ways and which are the more dangerous ways please tell!!!

    That's pretty much the way it seems to me too (though I googled it and I think a star trek transporter acutally uses the original atoms transmitted, not ones at the destination). As far as I know, Quantum Teleportation won't evolve into it either (based on the little reading up on it I've done). Again, for string theory, I only know a tiny bit and am not really well versed it it. I did write a "speculative" paper though (not anything formal, just for fun) on some properties of the universe that would have to exist and be exploited into for teleportation to be possible, I'll see if I can find it.



    Whether they use the original atoms or ones at the destination, how can you guarantee that the mind/conscience and/or soul, or whatever makes you you is teleportable that way?
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    Tronman100

    [24]May 15, 2007
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    TelFan7 wrote:
    Tronman100 wrote:

    TelFan7 wrote:
    The type of teleporting done in "Star Trek" would actually kill you since it uses different atoms at the destination and not your own original ones. Just like a fax machine doesn't send it's ink or lasering and paper to the other fax machine, the other just uses it's own. So the person after the teleportation process at point B would really be a new person who just looks, acts, and has the memories of the point A person, who may or may not be original also depending on whether or not they teleported before or not. In other words if anyone offers to teleport you the "Star Trek" way say "NO, THANK YOU, I'll fly (air or space), (and if on the same planet) drive, take a bus or train, or walk!!" The only safe way to teleport is like the way Hiro from "Heroes" does it, and the "Wrinkle In Time" way by bending space and bringing two points together so you won't have to take your atoms apart. I wonder if String-Theory has a safe way to do it? And what about Quantum Teleportation? If anyone here nows about the varies ways to teleport and which are the safer ways and which are the more dangerous ways please tell!!!

    That's pretty much the way it seems to me too (though I googled it and I think a star trek transporter acutally uses the original atoms transmitted, not ones at the destination). As far as I know, Quantum Teleportation won't evolve into it either (based on the little reading up on it I've done). Again, for string theory, I only know a tiny bit and am not really well versed it it. I did write a "speculative" paper though (not anything formal, just for fun) on some properties of the universe that would have to exist and be exploited into for teleportation to be possible, I'll see if I can find it.

    Whether they use the original atoms or ones at the destination, how can you guarantee that the mind/conscience and/or soul, or whatever makes you you is teleportable that way?

    Oh, yea I agree that you can't guarantee that whatsoever, which is why I agree it's still dangerous. But I think there's a greater 'chance' or it still being 'you' if the original atoms were used....just my opinion though and theres no real way to guarentee it in any case. I mean, just looked what happened to Riker when the transporter cloned him...

     

    EDIT: That is, I suppose unless you adopt the philosophy that "you" do not have a mind/consciousness/soul outside of the electrical impulses in your brain...in which case I suppose there would be no difference between the "you" that went into the transporter and the "you" which came out on the other end.
     

    Edited on 05/15/2007 1:52pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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    alex20020712

    [25]May 16, 2007
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    TelFan7 wrote:
    Whether they use the original atoms or ones at the destination, how can you guarantee that the mind/conscience and/or soul, or whatever makes you you is teleportable that way?


    Which atoms are used is irrelevant. We do not have the same atoms from one moment to the next. We do not even have exactly the same cells from one day to the next.

    The real question is about conscience, individuality, and so on. If someone told you that you were a "copy," not the "original," would it make any difference? Would you be any less of a person, an individual?
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    Tronman100

    [26]May 16, 2007
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    alex20020712 wrote:
    TelFan7 wrote:
    Whether they use the original atoms or ones at the destination, how can you guarantee that the mind/conscience and/or soul, or whatever makes you you is teleportable that way?


    Which atoms are used is irrelevant. We do not have the same atoms from one moment to the next. We do not even have exactly the same cells from one day to the next.

    The real question is about conscience, individuality, and so on. If someone told you that you were a "copy," not the "original," would it make any difference? Would you be any less of a person, an individual?


    I understand what you mean about our cells changing from one day to the next; since they constantly regenerate, but would you mind explaining what you mean that we don't have the same atoms from moment to the next? Do you mean that each instant our atoms change? Or just that our atoms change since cells are composed of atoms, and those cells change over time? Or am I completely off base here? Thanks!
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    GTOshinobi

    [27]May 16, 2007
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    i highly doubt our technology will grow at such a slow rate of speed that we will need another 1.3k years to start traveling like that. if it does ever happen, negating the fact that humanity may destroy itself, i wouldn't be surprised if it is in the next 300 years. also with the possibility of aliens, who knows? there may already be a "federation" type deal out there, and they are simply waiting for us to become more advanced before confronting us.
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    GTOshinobi

    [28]May 16, 2007
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    Tronman100 wrote:
    I understand what you mean about our cells changing from one day to the next; since they constantly regenerate, but would you mind explaining what you mean that we don't have the same atoms from moment to the next? Do you mean that each instant our atoms change? Or just that our atoms change since cells are composed of atoms, and those cells change over time? Or am I completely off base here? Thanks!


    We are constantly gaining new atoms through the air we breathe and the things we consume, as such, we are also constantly losing atoms through dead skin, hair, waste etc... i believe that is what he is refering to
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    alex20020712

    [29]May 17, 2007
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    Tronman100 wrote:
    I understand what you mean about our cells changing from one day to the next; since they constantly regenerate, but would you mind explaining what you mean that we don't have the same atoms from moment to the next? Do you mean that each instant our atoms change? Or just that our atoms change since cells are composed of atoms, and those cells change over time? Or am I completely off base here? Thanks!


    Difficult to explain. At the atomic and subatomic level, the concept of "solid" does not exist. There is no definite barrier or limit between "me" and "not-me," so that you could say this atom is mine, that one is not.

    In any case, we do not have to get to the atomic level. As already mentioned, we are constantly shedding, losing and replacing material. Yet, we maintain the basic structure. As Spock would say, fascinating.
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    Tronman100

    [30]May 18, 2007
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    alex20020712 wrote:
    As Spock would say, fascinating.

     
    As Tuvok would say, Indeed. Maybe I should have majored in phys instead of CS...but then I just remind myself of those god awful labs and think "no chance in hell...".

     

    Anyway, just for fun as a though experiement, lets pretend we did have a "black box" of sorts could take an atom as input and determine whether or not it belonged to "you".

     

    Now lets imagine two types of teleporters, both with two chambers (or pads, or whatever) which the idea of transplanting anything in Chamber 1 into Chamber 2. The first type of transporter works like so: It can scan all the atoms in Chamber A, determine which ones are "you" and which one's aren't (the black box), then (never mind the mechanism for the time being) could make each individual, "actual atom" (pretending this can be determined of course) that was actually you disappear from Chamber A and instantaneously appear in Chamber B.

    The second type of transporter reads all the atoms in Chamber A, finds out all the imformation about each atom that is "you" in Chamber A, destroys it, then simultaneously gives a corresponding atom in Chamber B all the imformation it scanned from the atom in Chamber A (again never minding the mechanism).

    Speaking from a philosophical standpoint, it seems to me that the first type of transporter would be "safe", i.e. the consciousness that entered was the same consciousness that came out, and if I stepped in, me, and only me, would come out.

    But I don't think the second type of transporter would do that. If I walked into the second type, the "me" that is "me" would die, while an identical copy would be created in the other. Now, whether or not this bothers you may be dependent on whether or not you think that "you" have a soul or consciousness which is independent of the electrical impulses in your brain. If not, then I suppose which transporter used wouldn't really matter. Just a thought anyway.

     

    EDIT: I suppose it could also be argued that your "consciousness" would transfer at the moment of death from you to the copy, but I see no real reason to think that.

    Edited on 05/18/2007 8:56am
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    alex20020712

    [31]May 18, 2007
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    Tronman100 wrote:
    Speaking from a philosophical standpoint, it seems to me that the first type of transporter would be "safe", i.e. the consciousness that entered was the same consciousness that came out, and if I stepped in, me, and only me, would come out.


    But is it? To me, it is not a question of atoms or elemental particles, but what makes us individuals. That is the question we have not answered. We are talking about transporting our bodies, and I do not want to get metaphysical about it, but what other choice is there?

    I am not saying I believe or do not believe in a "soul" or something like that. What I am saying is, no one knows. No one knows or understands what consciousness or individuality really is, or where it resides.

    Going back to my previous question, if you were told you are a "copy," not an "original," what difference would that make? Would you feel any less of an individual? Why? How could you tell a "copy" from an "original," if they were both identical in every way?
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    TelFan7

    [32]May 19, 2007
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    alex20020712 wrote:
    Tronman100 wrote:
    Speaking from a philosophical standpoint, it seems to me that the first type of transporter would be "safe", i.e. the consciousness that entered was the same consciousness that came out, and if I stepped in, me, and only me, would come out.
    But is it? To me, it is not a question of atoms or elemental particles, but what makes us individuals. That is the question we have not answered. We are talking about transporting our bodies, and I do not want to get metaphysical about it, but what other choice is there? I am not saying I believe or do not believe in a "soul" or something like that. What I am saying is, no one knows. No one knows or understands what consciousness or individuality really is, or where it resides. Going back to my previous question, if you were told you are a "copy," not an "original," what difference would that make? Would you feel any less of an individual? Why? How could you tell a "copy" from an "original," if they were both identical in every way?

    But would you want a "copy" of a loved one or the "original" aka "real-thing"? I would never accept a "copy" if I found out they were!! They'd be dead to me, since I believe you either go to an after-life or nowhere, but you can't be teleported if done the Star Trek method which breaks you apart. I'll only accept someone I love if they do it the Hiro way in which all is done simultaneously!!!

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    alex20020712

    [33]May 19, 2007
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    TelFan7 wrote:
    But would you want a "copy" of a loved one or the "original" aka "real-thing"? I would never accept a "copy" if I found out they were!!


    Maybe you do not understand the question. We are talking about *perfect* copies, with no way to differentiate them from the original. In other words, it would be impossible to determine which one is a copy and which one is the original.

    Maybe the terms are confusing, because we are used to thinking of copies as something less than an original. Not in this case. We are talking about a duplicate that is exact, to the last subatomic particle, assuming that could ever be done.
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    Tronman100

    [34]May 19, 2007
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    alex20020712 wrote:


    But is it? To me, it is not a question of atoms or elemental particles, but what makes us individuals. That is the question we have not answered. We are talking about transporting our bodies, and I do not want to get metaphysical about it, but what other choice is there?

    I am not saying I believe or do not believe in a "soul" or something like that. What I am saying is, no one knows. No one knows or understands what consciousness or individuality really is, or where it resides.

    Going back to my previous question, if you were told you are a "copy," not an "original," what difference would that make? Would you feel any less of an individual? Why? How could you tell a "copy" from an "original," if they were both identical in every way?

    Agreed, no one knows for sure, all we can do is speculate. As far as I know, based on medical evidence alone, there is no consciousness outside of the impulses in our brain. Therefore, a perfectly identical copy (not that I'm saying one can exist...this is just speculation remember) would be no different then the original, no one would be lost or sent to an afterlife. But...that's a big if, and personally I'm not sure I'd want to take the risk. I, as an individual right now, feel as though I have a unique consciousness and a 'copy transporter' could not recreate the consciousness, even if I was recreated to the level of subatomic particles. Then the question becomes, if that new consciousness were identical in every way, would it matter that it was a copy? An individual question at best I suppose.

    I have been unable to decide if there is some physical part of us (a 'primary key' of sorts to use some database terminology) which uniquely determines our consciousness, but at the moment that seems most likely to me, but I don't know. If there is, then perfect replication of that physical part (where ever it is...after all we can lose many parts of us, including sections of our brain, without losing us) would in essence replicate that consciouness. Let's pretend in our copy transporter, that the copy was made without destroying the original. What then? Would it be one consciousness controling two bodies, or two unique, but identical (up to the point of the split anyway) consciousnesses (wow thats an awkward word to pluralize) controlling each body? It seems there in lies the answer. If it were one consciouness controling two bodies, then destroying the original wouldn't matter. If not, then destroying it would kill the original. Of course, if it turns out that our consciouness is entirely independant of our bodies, all bets are off, I don't even have a speculation for that (yet anyway). But I'm not sure how likely this is, since we can't just have our consciouness leave our bodies now (though, granted, some people claim to be able to do this, but I'm not sure if they really can). 

    Now, if I were to come out of a transporter and told I was a "copy", I can't say with certainty what my reaction would be, but I don't think I would feel any less of an individual, because I have just as much of a consciouness that the being that went in did (unless it turns out that they copy the transporter made had no consciousness whatsoever and was simply inanimate matter, again hard to say for sure). I would have all of my old memories and would likely act the same way in different situations. But I, personally, would still feel as though I were a new 'person' but no less and no more then the person who went in, but I would feel that the person who went in no longer existed. Whether or not other people would accept me, who knows.
     

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    alex20020712

    [35]May 19, 2007
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    Tronman100 wrote:
    Now, if I were to come out of a transporter and told I was a "copy", I can't say with certainty what my reaction would be, but I don't think I would feel any less of an individual, because I have just as much of a consciouness that the being that went in did (unless it turns out that they copy the transporter made had no consciousness whatsoever and was simply inanimate matter, again hard to say for sure). I would have all of my old memories and would likely act the same way in different situations. But I, personally, would still feel as though I were a new 'person' but no less and no more then the person who went in, but I would feel that the person who went in no longer existed. Whether or not other people would accept me, who knows.


    If you had all those memories as your own, why would you feel like a new person? When you wake up in the morning, how certain can you be that you are the same person? That is what I am getting at, our concept of individuality and uniqueness.
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    Tronman100

    [36]May 19, 2007
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    alex20020712 wrote:

    If you had all those memories as your own, why would you feel like a new person? When you wake up in the morning, how certain can you be that you are the same person? That is what I am getting at, our concept of individuality and uniqueness.


    Strictly speaking, I cannot be certain at all when I wake up that I even existed yesterday. For all I know, I was just created and all my previous memories happened to someone else. Or didn't happen at all, and we're just planted into my head. For all I know, the entire universe was just created an instant ago and everything I think happened up to this point didn't really happen, those memories were implanted. I do not actually think this is the case, but I have to accept the possbility and can never be 100% sure that it isn't. All I can prove to myself is that I exist now, in the instant I proved it, but I can't prove that to anyone else, nor can I prove to myself that I existed two instants ago. I suppose the only reason I would think I was a new person is because I think the old one may have been destroyed. I would not feel any more or less me, but I would have to at least accept the possibility that the same person that went in is not the same person that came out. As for what makes us unique individuals, I'm really not sure. Is there any difference between me and a newly created perfect copy? I can't say there is but I can't say there isn't for sure.
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    TelFan7

    [37]May 20, 2007
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    alex20020712 wrote:
    TelFan7 wrote:
    But would you want a "copy" of a loved one or the "original" aka "real-thing"? I would never accept a "copy" if I found out they were!!
    Maybe you do not understand the question. We are talking about *perfect* copies, with no way to differentiate them from the original. In other words, it would be impossible to determine which one is a copy and which one is the original. Maybe the terms are confusing, because we are used to thinking of copies as something less than an original. Not in this case. We are talking about a duplicate that is exact, to the last subatomic particle, assuming that could ever be done.

    NO, NO, NO!!! In fact it's very EASY to determine by the SIMPLE FACT that they've been teleported the "Star Trek" method!! At least it is if and once you find-out. So it's not as difficult as you say, you see?

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    Tronman100

    [38]May 20, 2007
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    TelFan7 wrote:

    alex20020712 wrote:
    TelFan7 wrote:
    But would you want a "copy" of a loved one or the "original" aka "real-thing"? I would never accept a "copy" if I found out they were!!
    Maybe you do not understand the question. We are talking about *perfect* copies, with no way to differentiate them from the original. In other words, it would be impossible to determine which one is a copy and which one is the original. Maybe the terms are confusing, because we are used to thinking of copies as something less than an original. Not in this case. We are talking about a duplicate that is exact, to the last subatomic particle, assuming that could ever be done.

    NO, NO, NO!!! In fact it's very EASY to determine by the SIMPLE FACT that they've been teleported the "Star Trek" method!! At least it is if and once you find-out. So it's not as difficult as you say, you see?



    I don't see, I'm afraid I don't have a clue what you're talking about.
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    alex20020712

    [39]May 20, 2007
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    Tronman100 wrote:
    I don't see, I'm afraid I don't have a clue what you're talking about.


    Neither do I. The "Star Trek method" makes perfect duplicates, with no degradation whatsoever. It would be impossible to examine a person and determine whether he or she has ever been transported, for example.
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    TelFan7

    [40]May 20, 2007
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    alex20020712 wrote:
    Tronman100 wrote:
    I don't see, I'm afraid I don't have a clue what you're talking about.
    Neither do I. The "Star Trek method" makes perfect duplicates, with no degradation whatsoever. It would be impossible to examine a person and determine whether he or she has ever been transported, for example.

    I mean if you either have an eye-witness or more reliable a video (which has been analyzed to make sure it's an actual teleportation shown and not special-effects). But you're right without this you wouldn't know, I'm speaking if the persons caught in the act!!

     

     

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