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UPN (ended 2001)

Kes or Seven?

  • Avatar of sam24

    sam24

    [21]Dec 21, 2009
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    hmm well i really liked voyager but i have to say when seven was introduced it did improve the show a lot i actually didn't like the show that much before and i think by adding seven of nine it did what the writers intended was to boost the show. Yes we watch because we like the show but it is like any other buisness they have to do what is best fot the show and at the time introducing this character was and it paid off for them in a big way. It did however leave them with a big delemma ten characters would be hard to write for around an hour show and it could fail if they try so they had to chose to focus on a few characters and use the rest as backups. If u took in consideration the nature of the show the dynamics of the characters she seemed like the best choice. Personally i didn't really care for her character one way or the other and having her gone didn't really effect the show u could see that they changed the dynamics of the show but it seemed more like the audience didn't really care one way or the other about her . Harry was also another character that could be gone but they used him to strengthen paris character all in all voyger really focused on seven of nine, the captain, chocotaye, doctor, paris and belona to a lesser degree and the rest were mostly widow dressing
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  • Avatar of StarTrekGone

    StarTrekGone

    [22]Jan 7, 2010
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    I loved Seven. But I was sorry that they created her character at the expense of others. Solution: They needed two shows per week ... well, that's fantasy!

    After a few years they didn't handle the character of Kes well. They essentially broke her character.

    I'll be forever grateful that they allowed Neelix to shine. He was a joy!

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  • Avatar of Parsec54

    Parsec54

    [23]Jan 26, 2010
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    StarTrekGone wrote:

    .

    I'll be forever grateful that they allowed Neelix to shine. He was a joy!



    I still remember how enthusiastically he greeted Tuvok... the huge hug and the Hello Mr. Vulcan. But as far as the main point of the thread is concerned, although I liked Seven, I feel they emphasized her at the expense of too many of the other characters. I liked Harry, and Paris, but I never cared for Chakotay, unfortunately. The same with Tuvok. They were too generic. Kes was just... blah. She tried to come across as innocent and awed by just about everything, but she just seemed to OVER do it while at the same time being flat and unconvincing. I don't know how else to explain it. And no, for those who might take that comment wrong, I'm using "flat" to describe her voice and acting, nothing else.
    Someone also brought up the point of Seven not having a uniform... well, she never really was brought into Starfleet, so why should she wear a uniform?
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  • Avatar of finalcry

    finalcry

    [24]Feb 13, 2010
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    :
    I still remember how enthusiastically he greeted Tuvok... the huge hug and the Hello Mr. Vulcan.

    I always thought it was somewhat derogatory when someone refered to Tuvok as "Mr. Vulcan." That would be like calling Barak Obama "Mr. African-American" instead of Mr. President. But to answer the original question, Seven, definitely.

    Edited on 02/13/2010 8:21pm
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  • Avatar of pinguaq

    pinguaq

    [25]Mar 28, 2010
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    finalcry wrote:
    I always thought it was somewhat derogatory when someone refered to Tuvok as "Mr. Vulcan." That would be like calling Barak Obama "Mr. African-American" instead of Mr. President. But to answer the original question, Seven, definitely.


    Actually, it would be more like a non-human bi-ped calling Barak "Mr. Human". Eitherway, Vulcans, being an elightened species unlike the typical 21st centary human, are sure to live by simular axioms as:


    "He who takes offense when none is intended is a fool. He who takes offense when offense is intended is a bigger fool." - Confucius


    "We should be too big to take offense and too noble to give it." - Abraham Lincoln


    As for which character is better, the liberated borg for sure. I consider her the most interesting charater in the show. Her cold, hard demenor, super intellegence, and all the knowledge of the borg made so many plot twists posible. Her internal struggle to find her lost humanity and the courage to contradict Janeway also provided intersting situations.


    Live long and prosper.

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  • Avatar of baskok

    baskok

    [26]Jun 2, 2010
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    i liked kes and seven of nine but in that episode after seven of nine became a member onboard voyager it felt like that whole kes getting superpowers idea was a litlle bit strange. It felt like they we're replacing kes so quickly that theyforgot a good reason to leave voyager. Stil seven of nine had some interesting storylines wich brought more borg episodes! This has happened before to boost shows. Bring in a beauty with big boobs to enhance shows popularity. Like t'pol on ENT.

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  • Avatar of seto1

    seto1

    [27]Jun 4, 2010
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    I likeed kes but the show did improved after she left and 7 and introduced,it had better stories ad more character development.However if i had to choose one to go on a date with its kes all the way.
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  • Avatar of pferreira86

    pferreira86

    [28]Jun 6, 2010
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    seto1 wrote:
    I likeed kes but the show did improved after she left and 7 and introduced,it had better stories ad more character development.However if i had to choose one to go on a date with its kes all the way.
    I have to disagree here. The show was better before Kes left. The series got progressively worse after Seven joined. The writing felt tired, there was too much action and not enough character development, the over reliance CGI made the show feel cheap at times, there was a lack of continuity and a lot of characters got sidelined as the show focused too much on Seven. Of course I'm probably in a minority but that's just my opinion.

    Edited on 06/06/2010 7:46am
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  • Avatar of baskok

    baskok

    [29]Dec 4, 2010
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    Well seven did became more important then the others but it was all about the ratings. they wanted to show as much of seven as possible. For me I never really cared about harry or tom or be'lanna. And kes was too boring for me she did'nt have much use to me. It was refreshing to see a new character. A borg, maybe they thought star trek fans like borgs, like boobs, new character.

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  • Avatar of pferreira86

    pferreira86

    [30]Dec 5, 2010
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    baskok wrote:


    Well seven did became more important then the others but it was all about the ratings. they wanted to show as much of seven as possible. For me I never really cared about harry or tom or be'lanna. And kes was too boring for me she did'nt have much use to me. It was refreshing to see a new character. A borg, maybe they thought star trek fans like borgs, like boobs, new character.


    They thought fans just wanted Borg and time travel and as a result we had to put up with Endgame as the series finale. Cry

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  • Avatar of baskok

    baskok

    [31]Dec 9, 2010
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    The endgame episode was not what I expected of voyager. The ending was so abrupt. Was the ending planned or was voyager going to run for more seasons? I would have liked to see a map of the delta quadrant we're every episode the progress was explained. Still i liked the armor and the transfasic torpedoes from the future. ( outclassed the borg) During the later seasons you had a lot of borg episodes. I did enjoy them but i think that the seven of nine character became much to dominant. Other characters like tom and harry we're side tracked. It became all about the captain and seven.

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  • Avatar of pferreira86

    pferreira86

    [32]Dec 12, 2010
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    baskok wrote:


    The endgame episode was not what I expected of voyager. The ending was so abrupt. Was the ending planned or was voyager going to run for more seasons? I would have liked to see a map of the delta quadrant we're every episode the progress was explained. Still i liked the armor and the transfasic torpedoes from the future. ( outclassed the borg) During the later seasons you had a lot of borg episodes. I did enjoy them but i think that the seven of nine character became much to dominant. Other characters like tom and harry we're side tracked. It became all about the captain and seven.


    Totally agree with you on your last comment. It also focused too much on the Doctor. I'll add that Endgame was planned as the series finale so if it feels abrupt it was more poor scripting than time.

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  • Avatar of seto1

    seto1

    [33]Dec 18, 2010
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    Endgame makes me remember the Atlantis finale since both seemed rush even though Atlantis was due to the series being cancelled i was surprise with Voyager's ending it seemed like a cheat to me.Time travel is the usually the product of lazy writing and thats the sham we got for a finale.
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  • Avatar of pferreira86

    pferreira86

    [34]Dec 19, 2010
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    seto1 wrote:
    Endgame makes me remember the Atlantis finale since both seemed rush even though Atlantis was due to the series being cancelled i was surprise with Voyager's ending it seemed like a cheat to me.Time travel is the usually the product of lazy writing and thats the sham we got for a finale.
    Kenneth Biller's reasoning at the time was that everyone loves time travel and everyone loves Borg so lets have them both together for the finale! The last three seasons seemed to have this kind of mentality unfortunately. Yell

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  • Avatar of lillinda

    lillinda

    [35]Oct 25, 2012
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    I can see no need for an either ... or. Both of those characters are so different. But finally I liked Seven much more. Kes became kind of annoying, and less attractive with that long hair.

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    aprilia1k

    [36]Dec 8, 2012
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    There was a post to this very long-running thread in October - month and a half ago - these types of topics are lurker havens anyway - so, here I lurk - and I figure since I'm watching - just watched the Kes "departure" episode (hardly for the first time). I admire Jennifer's acting - alot - and the Kes character, but.. well.. for whatever reason, it seems like she was written "in to a corner" of sorts. I consider the episode Warlord, where Kes' body is taken - to be a "Jump the Shark" moment, unfortunately (in hindsight - IMHO). Not that she was not brilliant, just that the story.. while challenging her, did not flatter her (not to mention that, after this, she suddenly had no interest in Nelix... it just doesn't go down well - for me. It was "too convenient" to turn the "Warlord's" rejection of Nelix in to Kes' own. Body-swaps are difficult (easier for the Borg characters I think, all those minds mingling ;-) - borderline Deus Ex Machina moments all over the place... Anyway - I think that, despite Jennifer Lien's considerable acting chops - the writing for many Kes episodes was just not as consistently inspired as the writing across many other character's showcase episodes. I love these writers btw - Voyager's the epitome of spirited and compelling Sci-Fi Drama (Human Drama) - about the best show ever. (I have about 5 - 6 "best show ever"'s, ;-) .


    Seems that history proved out the replacement of Kes with Seven; definitely so, in terms of show ratings. I also think that Jeri Ryan proved to be another excellent actor. Watch "Infinite Regress" (Season 5, Epi. 7). She nails several quite disparate roles/characters; damn challenging but - she did make it look easy - which takes considerable talent. That was the right way to do the "body/mind swap", as far as writing, btw. Fine actor.


    Which brings me to Garret Wang - another very talented actor IMHO - I strongly disagree with the notion that he should have gone instead of Jennifer, and I have trouble believing the hearsay that he was originally slated to go. And reading someone's statement that "they never did anything with .." the Harry Kim character - that seems an absurd thing to say, IMFAO. It's a known fact that he collaborated with several of the producers (WRITERS people), and he directed some episodes as well iirc. I mean no disrespect, though I guess "absurd" isn't flattery. Garret Wang's character had SO many episodes that were "his" episodes, before and after season 3. I haven't tally'd them to compare - but it SEEMS like as many episodes were "H.K." episodes as were "Janeway", "Doctor", any of the other characters. And -- the H.K. episodes were among the .. most compelling - certainly quite well done. It's not that I'm biased - I think Paris, Torres, Doctor & of course I've always loved Kate Mulgrew.. they're all my favs really. But, in defense of "the Harry character", that they never did anything with - Recall the episode where he was thrown in to a different timeline, and woke up in bed in San Francisco with "Libby" iirc. Or the, episode where the ship and crew crashed on an Ice planet, when attempting to .. open a Slipstream? (I'm not checking my nomenclature, going from memory). Harry and Chakotay came back to make things right. I think these were some damn fine episodes ;-) But - the "hearsay" about his being lazy or late to set and all that, supported by a post on memory alpha (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Talk:Jennifer_Lien) was pretty bogus. That OP, while spreading these negatives about Garret Wang, then actually criticized and called "totally false and incredibly nasty" the other forum assertions regarding Jennifer Lien's "drug addiction". It seemed pretty lame to spread cr** before complaining about someone else doing it. I don't admire any such talk, about either of these actors. But found it pretty hypocritical to be sure.


    Edited on 12/08/2012 3:46am
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  • Avatar of pferreira86

    pferreira86

    [37]Dec 24, 2012
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    Kes did have some shaky episodes but she also had some good ones. Seven had many bad episodes and very few good ones. I think that's the problem.

    Edited on 12/24/2012 6:25am
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  • Avatar of fanboy34

    fanboy34

    [38]Mar 8, 2013
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    Seven - I'd nearly forgotten dear Kes by the end of the series' run. Her character was poorly thought out for a series which they hoped to run for seven years. Having painted Kes into a corner from the outset with such a short lifespan, it was kinder to let her go and move on. Also, no one has mentioned the factor that Jennifer Lien was severely allergic to the glue used for her prosthetic ears so they had to switch to hairstyles that covered up the entire sides of her face instead. This made her look like just any cute blonde doll so when they decided to spare Harry from being the sacrifice, Kes became the natural one to leave instead.


    She just wasn't interesting enough going forward, even with the writers' silly hand-waving about meditation to prolong life. Jennifer's acting was fine, no complaints - it was just a badly botched character. The brief return arc where she said goodbye for good was the best of Kes. It showed her as some sort of badass space pirate, similar to Nana Visitor's character in the DS9's alternate universe.


    Enter Jeri Ryan as our Femme Frankenstein creature in a catsuit. She was toxic yet tragic as the orphaned blonde girl who watched her parents assimilated before becoming the ultimate example of Stockholm syndrome - tertiary adjunct of Unimatrix Zero or pet and right-hand associate of the evil Borg queen herself. In my opinion, they actually tamed her much too soon, still, it opened up so many plot avenues by having a Borg on board. Of the original cast, Harry was clearly the most interchangeable and ordinary character but human-looking Kes was the next most likely to be sacrificed like a red-shirt.

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    pferreira86

    [39]Mar 10, 2013
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    The problem with the introduction of Seven is that it paved the way for turning the Borg into rubbish villains. A shame really.Cry

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    MissMunchkin

    [40]May 1, 2013
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    I'm in the minority when I say that I think Kes's actress was... untrained, too raw, and overacted way too much. Which is strange to say on a Star Trek show when overacting is exactly what you need. However, Kes always stood out for all of the wrong reasons to me. When they changed Kes's style in season 3, it did something to her character... It matured her, and made her a different person. For those handful of episodes in which she had the long hair and wore the red, she was suddenly someone that I liked. She also wasn't forced to overact because she was in mating season or being possessed or whatever else happened... But unfortunately, they started to turn her into a deux ex machina instead, so I am definitely glad that they got rid of her. They made her way too powerful. Had they allowed her to accept some sort of suppression for her abilities instead of being so... damn insistent on accepting these silly powers, I think her character would have been salvaged.


    As long as they didn't try to get her with Tom.


    I always liked Seven's character from the second she was introduced. Jeri Ryan is a fabulous actress. I've loved her on everything I've seen her in, and she gave Seven such a vulnerability despite her hard exterior... Just wonderful. However, her introduction did kind of making it Star Trek: Seven of Nine instead, and that was a huge bummer. The overselling of her character did, at times, make me resent her presence, but I was always aware that in the end, Seven was cool and I did really like her, even if I got annoyed by how much she was oversold. I just wish that the Chakotay/Seven romance would have built up a bit more obviously. It seemed to come out of nowhere, and while I actually supported them when they suddenly were a couple, I certainly had never considered it before her holodec program.


    But if we're talking in terms of beauty... I always thought B'Elanna as a human was gorgeous and much more my type.

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