Stargate Universe Forums

Syfy (ended 2011)

Questions about Destiny and the Seeders

  • Avatar of TOCM19

    TOCM19

    [1]Apr 25, 2010
    • member since: 08/30/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 2,221

    Very sorry if this has been discussed and please feel free to direct me to the right thread for it but I have some questions about how we are thinking the seeders and destiny works.


    Since whenever they stop there tendsto be 2 or 3 planets in range, I was assuming that every stop was in a new galaxy and that the seeders must only be placing 2 or 3 gates in each galaxy before they moved on. My basis for this reasoning is that Stargates can normally relatively easily reach any other gate in the same galaxy, so when they stop they should be able to dial any gate in the same galaxy as them, thefrore that should be what "in range" means. However the way they talk about what is "in range" and the general feel you get from watchign is that "in range" is actually reffereign to some range a little more "relatively" near by. But since this doesn't really fit with the established rules of SG I've been assuming that it is reffering to the Galaxy as "in range".


    However, in the recent episdoe "Faith" the planet they ran in to (I assume was inside a galaxy) as Eli askes why the seeders didn't put a gate on the planet.



    This question suggests that the seeders were actually putting down gates on every planet that they find, if this is true then why do they only ever have a couple of destinations when destiny stops?


    Any thoughts on this.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of someguy0830

    someguy0830

    [2]Apr 25, 2010
    • member since: 06/14/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 10,103
    TOCM19 wrote:
    Since whenever they stop there tends to be 2 or 3 planets in range, I was assuming that every stop was in a new galaxy and that the seeders must only be placing 2 or 3 gates in each galaxy before they moved on. My basis for this reasoning is that Stargates can normally relatively easily reach any other gate in the same galaxy, so when they stop they should be able to dial any gate in the same galaxy as them, thefrore that should be what "in range" means. However the way they talk about what is "in range" and the general feel you get from watchign is that "in range" is actually reffereign to some range a little more "relatively" near by. But since this doesn't really fit with the established rules of SG I've been assuming that it is reffering to the Galaxy as "in range".

    However, in the recent episode "Faith" the planet they ran in to (I assume was inside a galaxy) as Eli askes why the seeders didn't put a gate on the planet.

    This question suggests that the seeders were actually putting down gates on every planet that they find, if this is true then why do they only ever have a couple of destinations when destiny stops?
    The Destiny gate model is the prototype for all future models, Milky Way included. It doesn't have galactic range. They haven't left the galaxy yet.

    The seeder ships place gates on any world which is habitable or contains resources of need to Destiny. Destiny can dial these gates once it gets close enough to do so.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of TOCM19

    TOCM19

    [3]Apr 25, 2010
    • member since: 08/30/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 2,221
    someguy0830 wrote:
    The Destiny gate model is the prototype for all future models, Milky Way included. It doesn't have galactic range. They haven't left the galaxy yet.

    The seeder ships place gates on any world which is habitable or contains resources of need to Destiny. Destiny can dial these gates once it gets close enough to do so.


    Where did you get that from though? The ancients had stargates in their own galaxy before they left it for the milky way though?
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of someguy0830

    someguy0830

    [4]Apr 25, 2010
    • member since: 06/14/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 10,103
    TOCM19 wrote:
    Where did you get that from though? The ancients had stargates in their own galaxy before they left it for the milky way though?
    Moviehole - Stargate Universe cast interview

    Also, they did not have Stargates in their home galaxy before leaving for the Milky Way galaxy. Amelius, the inventor of the Stargates, had only just drawn up the plans when they left what is now the Ori galaxy.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of TOCM19

    TOCM19

    [5]Apr 25, 2010
    • member since: 08/30/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 2,221
    someguy0830 wrote:
    TOCM19 wrote:
    Where did you get that from though? The ancients had stargates in their own galaxy before they left it for the milky way though?
    Moviehole - Stargate Universe cast interview

    Also, they did not have Stargates in their home galaxy before leaving for the Milky Way galaxy. Amelius, the inventor of the Stargates, had only just drawn up the plans when they left what is now the Ori galaxy.


    Ah ok, so the prototype stargates are pretty pointless then. They have limited range so they still need the ship, but the ship has shuttles, so its a totall waste of time to have gates at all?

    And how come they are trying to dial earth from destiny?

    This is more rubbish that I first thought.

    Also the Ori did have gate, so they co-incidentally invented an almost entirely identical technology that was miraculously compatible?
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of someguy0830

    someguy0830

    [6]Apr 25, 2010
    • member since: 06/14/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 10,103
    TOCM19 wrote:
    Ah ok, so the prototype stargates are pretty pointless then. They have limited range so they still need the ship, but the ship has shuttles, so its a totall waste of time to have gates at all?
    Shuttles are slower than gates, both in reaching a destination and bringing supplies back. The gates are better, not to mention that they could be upgraded later to Milky Way style if needed.

    TOCM19 wrote:
    And how come they are trying to dial earth from destiny?
    Destiny gates have a limited range, the reverse is not true. A Milky Way gate can reach as far as it needs to with the right amount of power, even to an older model. The Milky Way gate is holding the connection, not the Destiny gate.

    TOCM19 wrote:
    Also the Ori did have gate, so they co-incidentally invented an almost entirely identical technology that was miraculously compatible?
    The Ori used ascended knowledge, which includes almost all forms of Ancient technology and then some. That why they also have rings and crystal technology.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of TOCM19

    TOCM19

    [7]Apr 25, 2010
    • member since: 08/30/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 2,221
    someguy0830 wrote:
    TOCM19 wrote:
    Ah ok, so the prototype stargates are pretty pointless then. They have limited range so they still need the ship, but the ship has shuttles, so its a totall waste of time to have gates at all?
    Shuttles are slower than gates, both in reaching a destination and bringing supplies back. The gates are better, not to mention that they could be upgraded later to Milky Way style if needed.


    I kinda get that, but it's just that there's a whole load of Galaxies that are unreachable from destiny without a long journey.

    someguy0830 wrote:
    TOCM19 wrote:
    And how come they are trying to dial earth from destiny?

    Destiny gates have a limited range, the reverse is not true. A Milky Way gate can reach as far as it needs to with the right amount of power, even to an older model. The Milky Way gate is holding the connection, not the Destiny gate.


    I'm talking about the fat that they were trying to dial the Earth gate from Destiny, you're answer to that makes no sense. The gates are just conduits that essentially catch hold of the end of a wormhole that's aimed at it, the only real constraint in terms of range is how far the dialling gate is able to project that wormhole, if the range is limited from the prototype gates then that must mean that their design is less energy efficient or simply by design isnt able to project wormholes far enough, therefore dialling earth wouldn't work. If it did then Destiny could dial any gate (even another of the prototypes) anywhere if the galaxy, and the reciever would simply catch the exit end of the wormhole.
    someguy0830 wrote:

    TOCM19 wrote:
    Also the Ori did have gate, so they co-incidentally invented an almost entirely identical technology that was miraculously compatible?
    The Ori used ascended knowledge, which includes almost all forms of Ancient technology and then some. That why they also have rings and crystal technology.[/QUOTE


    I'm sure that Daniel said at some point that you don't just gain all knowlage simply by ascending, you have to know that stuff, rember they didn't know about the milky way at all, they must have had some form of stargate before the ancients left or they wouldn't have been compatible.

    Also if destiny is still in the same Galaxy then it's comparitively very slow, does that mean that the FTL drives it has are not as good as hyper space? presumably that means the FTL is the tech the ancients used to leave the ori galaxy, so i guess it took them a long old time to get to the milky way. The ori ships were much much faster and they still thought it necassary to build the supergates instead of just flying. I get the impression that the timeline wasn;t all that well thought out is all i'm getting at.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of someguy0830

    someguy0830

    [8]Apr 25, 2010
    • member since: 06/14/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 10,103
    TOCM19 wrote:
    I kinda get that, but it's just that there's a whole load of Galaxies that are unreachable from destiny without a long journey.
    That was kind of the point. The ships go out and seed planets. Destiny follows and explores them.

    TOCM19 wrote:
    I'm talking about the fat that they were trying to dial the Earth gate from Destiny, you're answer to that makes no sense. The gates are just conduits that essentially catch hold of the end of a wormhole that's aimed at it, the only real constraint in terms of range is how far the dialling gate is able to project that wormhole, if the range is limited from the prototype gates then that must mean that their design is less energy efficient or simply by design isnt able to project wormholes far enough, therefore dialling earth wouldn't work. If it did then Destiny could dial any gate (even another of the prototypes) anywhere if the galaxy, and the reciever would simply catch the exit end of the wormhole.
    The crew may not be aware of this, or simply felt it worth a shot in any case. Rush was very obviously opposed to the idea, so he at least knew better.

    TOCM19 wrote:
    I'm sure that Daniel said at some point that you don't just gain all knowlage simply by ascending, you have to know that stuff, rember they didn't know about the milky way at all, they must have had some form of stargate before the ancients left or they wouldn't have been compatible.
    You confuse knowledge with wisdom and experience. Base knowledge of science, mathematics, quantum mechanics and all that good stuff is part of the package. What you don't get is omniscience. They knew how to build Stargates because they ascended. The concept, in an of itself, was available to them.

    TOCM19 wrote:
    Also if destiny is still in the same Galaxy then it's comparitively very slow, does that mean that the FTL drives it has are not as good as hyper space? presumably that means the FTL is the tech the ancients used to leave the ori galaxy, so i guess it took them a long old time to get to the milky way. The ori ships were much much faster and they still thought it necassary to build the supergates instead of just flying. I get the impression that the timeline wasn't all that well thought out is all i'm getting at.
    The Ori galaxy, for all we know, could be hundreds of millions of light-years away. They never give a number. Supergates allowed them to move to and from their galaxy in no time flat, and it's not like the Ori care about resources.

    And yes, Destiny FTL is rather slow. Any modern intergalactic hyperdrive could make the same journey within a century.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of TOCM19

    TOCM19

    [9]Apr 25, 2010
    • member since: 08/30/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 2,221
    someguy0830 wrote:
    You confuse knowledge with wisdom and experience. Base knowledge of science, mathematics, quantum mechanics and all that good stuff is part of the package. What you don't get is omniscience. They knew how to build Stargates because they ascended. The concept, in an of itself, was available to them.


    Are you making this up or basing it on anything? Because Daniel doesn't have all that knowlege and he rembers ascending the second time. Not to mention the entire population of Abydos that ascended, are they all uber boffs now?
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of someguy0830

    someguy0830

    [10]Apr 25, 2010
    • member since: 06/14/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 10,103

    TOCM19 wrote:
    Are you making this up or basing it on anything? Because Daniel doesn't have all that knowlege and he rembers ascending the second time. Not to mention the entire population of Abydos that ascended, are they all uber boffs now?
    Daniel does have all that knowledge, RepliCarter makes a point of it when scanning his mind. It is simply beyond his reach because he's a normal human and it would kill him. The Ancients, when sending him back, took his ability to use that knowledge. It's something all ascended share.

    Edited on 04/25/2010 4:15pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of wHiTeHaT44

    wHiTeHaT44

    [11]Nov 15, 2010
    • member since: 11/16/10
    • level: 1
    • rank: Weatherman
    • posts: 7
    I think someguy0830 missed the fact that the capability to dial a gate "in range" is based on the "remote's" reach for pinpointing the destiny's location.

    "You cant call a gate if you dont now it's position, this is covered already in sg1, where some missing gates where found couse of the time passed by and planets moved from there place."

    There's also an episode where some crew members are stranded on a planet and destiny moved away from that planet.
    The crew members had to jump to several planets to become in "remote" range (didnt you noticed that there are no DHD's) of the destiny.

    On a critical stage of that show it is been said that once they leave the gallaxy, they wont be able to return to destiny.(reaching the gallaxy's border, where then is nothing anymore as empty space, until the next gallaxy, so no more gates to jump to couse no position for these gates).

    So "luckly" the remote has some planets/gates from the destiny's database,and surely it have.

    Comming to the point abouth putting gates on every planet.
    That is not correct , it only puts gates on planets that are for some reason interesting enough.How that is decided is behind the scenes.

    Basicly , another question to ask is:
    Why can the chevron-9 on ikarus planet pinpoint the destiny while it's moving?
    And why chevron-7 cant connect to a gate, couse the planet moved from it's position?
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of wHiTeHaT44

    wHiTeHaT44

    [12]Nov 15, 2010
    • member since: 11/16/10
    • level: 1
    • rank: Weatherman
    • posts: 7

    Also dont forget the power that is needed to create a stable connection between 2 gates. In sg-a there are some parts where it is said that atlantis is to far away to connect to atlantis gate from the planet they are. The dhd's have an internal power source with a limited power for connecting to other gate's , so just gate's what are in range.



    Also to directly tell you why there arent any dhd's at the gate's, they didnt need them.


    First off... the gate-seeder-ships plant gate's...right.


    Destiny folows a trail these seed-ships leave behind,when ariving a new gallaxy , destiny scans for gate's.It then store the location data to the ships database,the remote will be updated with this data.


    Also keep in mind the remote can brake, to use your fantasy...hey... these where the guy's who made the gate's , so they could probaly do witouth the remote if they had to.

    Edited on 11/15/2010 2:31pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of TOCM19

    TOCM19

    [13]Nov 15, 2010
    • member since: 08/30/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 2,221
    hush.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Yaspaa

    Yaspaa

    [14]Nov 16, 2010
    • member since: 02/12/07
    • level: 79
    • rank: "Make It So"
    • posts: 1,875
    TOCM19 wrote:
    hush.
    Hehe.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of SamMillman

    SamMillman

    [15]Nov 16, 2010
    • member since: 10/10/09
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 9

    There is another theory to not have dhds at stargates. That is to protect destiny. Why else would the Ancients not place dhds down? I bet they had their own little devices for dialing gates back in milkyway and pegasus...



    As we know the stargates on destiny are very old and are not the stargates we are used to (mentioned in first season). It just takes the shortest route through that galaxy to it's destination. A clue to their use can be fouind in season 2 with rush talking to himself (or the ships computer) and the entity suggests that the gates are there "merely to let people stretch their legs".



    Why can the chevron-9 on ikarus planet pinpoint the destiny while it's moving?
    And why chevron-7 cant connect to a gate, couse the planet moved from it's position?


    I have a theory about this. Notice how the 9th chevron was a key code rather than a normal positional input. They had to use earth position to get it to work so it was apparent it was more of a key code. I would think it is a built in parameter into every stargate that it should be able to send a signal across massive distances (much like the telecommunication stones) and pick up destinys computers and force the ship to stop. Of course to do this would take massive power in itself. But once destiny was pin pointed the gate could just connect. I'm guessing the Ancients would have a basic understanding of how to calculate the x,y,z of a position within the universe in general being the brain boxes they are/were.



    We also find out from sga that it is possible to dail a gate that is out of position if you have the right tools but you must be standing still. This is found out from the drifting episode in sga...I think it is raddick who says it.

    Edited on 11/16/2010 11:59am
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of seto1

    seto1

    [16]Nov 16, 2010
    • member since: 02/13/07
    • level: 16
    • rank: Church Lady
    • posts: 2,085

    SamMillman wrote:


    There is another theory to not have dhds at stargates. That is to protect destiny. Why else would the Ancients not place dhds down? I bet they had their own little devices for dialing gates back in milkyway and pegasus...



    As we know the stargates on destiny are very old and are not the stargates we are used to (mentioned in first season). It just takes the shortest route through that galaxy to it's destination. A clue to their use can be fouind in season 2 with rush talking to himself (or the ships computer) and the entity suggests that the gates are there "merely to let people stretch their legs".



    Why can the chevron-9 on ikarus planet pinpoint the destiny while it's moving?
    And why chevron-7 cant connect to a gate, couse the planet moved from it's position?


    I have a theory about this. Notice how the 9th chevron was a key code rather than a normal positional input. They had to use earth position to get it to work so it was apparent it was more of a key code. I would think it is a built in parameter into every stargate that it should be able to send a signal across massive distances (much like the telecommunication stones) and pick up destinys computers and force the ship to stop. Of course to do this would take massive power in itself. But once destiny was pin pointed the gate could just connect. I'm guessing the Ancients would have a basic understanding of how to calculate the x,y,z of a position within the universe in general being the brain boxes they are/were.



    We also find out from sga that it is possible to dail a gate that is out of position if you have the right tools but you must be standing still. This is found out from the drifting episode in sga...I think it is raddick who says it.


    Well actually Earth was the final part of a mathematical equation that lets the dialing computer locate destiny anywhere in the in universe.Ok im thinking it works like this Destiny started off from earth going at a constant ftl speed of x,then factoring stop times and recharges itspossibleto predict the distance traveled since destiny is more or less going it astraightline for the full length of the journey .Irealizesuch math seems ungodly by our standard but we are talking about the gatebuildershere.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of TOCM19

    TOCM19

    [17]Nov 17, 2010
    • member since: 08/30/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 2,221
    seto1 wrote:

    SamMillman wrote:


    There is another theory to not have dhds at stargates. That is to protect destiny. Why else would the Ancients not place dhds down? I bet they had their own little devices for dialing gates back in milkyway and pegasus...



    As we know the stargates on destiny are very old and are not the stargates we are used to (mentioned in first season). It just takes the shortest route through that galaxy to it's destination. A clue to their use can be fouind in season 2 with rush talking to himself (or the ships computer) and the entity suggests that the gates are there "merely to let people stretch their legs".



    Why can the chevron-9 on ikarus planet pinpoint the destiny while it's moving?
    And why chevron-7 cant connect to a gate, couse the planet moved from it's position?


    I have a theory about this. Notice how the 9th chevron was a key code rather than a normal positional input. They had to use earth position to get it to work so it was apparent it was more of a key code. I would think it is a built in parameter into every stargate that it should be able to send a signal across massive distances (much like the telecommunication stones) and pick up destinys computers and force the ship to stop. Of course to do this would take massive power in itself. But once destiny was pin pointed the gate could just connect. I'm guessing the Ancients would have a basic understanding of how to calculate the x,y,z of a position within the universe in general being the brain boxes they are/were.



    We also find out from sga that it is possible to dail a gate that is out of position if you have the right tools but you must be standing still. This is found out from the drifting episode in sga...I think it is raddick who says it.


    Well actually Earth was the final part of a mathematical equation that lets the dialing computer locate destiny anywhere in the in universe.Ok im thinking it works like this Destiny started off from earth going at a constant ftl speed of x,then factoring stop times and recharges itspossibleto predict the distance traveled since destiny is more or less going it astraightline for the full length of the journey .Irealizesuch math seems ungodly by our standard but we are talking about the gatebuildershere.



    The gate co-ordinate system as they would have you believe from the Movie, and season 1 of SG-1 doesn't work anyway. It's impossible. The Milky gates have 39 symbols on them, 38 of which are on every gate, we are told this, the only different one is the POO, so the POO has to have always just been a sort of code, it makes way more sense if the gates just use the POO as a signal for the gate to know that the user has finishes dialling (given that there can actually be more than 6 symbols)

    I know it contradicts the early seasons of SG-1 but that's all it does, and there's a whole bunch of stuff they got wrong in those seasons. The idea that you'd need 6 symbols to pinpoint a 3d location is nonsense, any mathematician worth his salt can tell you that. Not to mention the fact that if it was based on this silly intersecting lines idea there's no way that you could have co-ordinates for thousands of gates using only 38 points in a galaxy. Not possible.

    My take on it is that the stargates work like phones in more than just dialling, each one has an address, and each gate has a phone book that corelates a set of symbols to a position in space. That's why the correlative update software is needed, each gate needs to tell all the others where they are in space, to re-map their address to their spacial position.

    Sam's program in early SG-1 backs up this, as it calculated the new positions of individual addresses and fed them in to the gate, so that the address now worked. it doesn't make sense that it would work for individual planets if the gates just used a universal co-ordinate system that needed updating.

    Ok so on to how destiny works based on that. Firstly, there's no way that the icarus gate could have had Earth's POO on it, that wouldn't make sense, if other gates have Earth's POO on them then that means they are missing other symbols and makes no sense, so the dialling computer that they used must have sent a signal to the gate saying "Earth". The gates would have to have a sub routine programmed in that says, "if you receive this code then send out this signal" once the signal is sent destiny receives it, and the on board gate sends out a response that maps it's position in space back to the dialling gate. Just like the correlative update routine does, with that info the gate can establish a wormhole. and snap the jobs a game.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of SamMillman

    SamMillman

    [18]Nov 17, 2010
    • member since: 10/10/09
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 9
    Your reply is backed up by the resyncing theory in the last sga episode. They had to resync their position (after dropping out prematurely) in order to be able to dial. I am guessing that when they resync it is like running an isolated version of the update program.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of TOCM19

    TOCM19

    [19]Nov 17, 2010
    • member since: 08/30/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 2,221
    SamMillman wrote:
    Your reply is backed up by the resyncing theory in the last sga episode. They had to resync their position (after dropping out prematurely) in order to be able to dial. I am guessing that when they resync it is like running an isolated version of the update program.


    Oui.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of seto1

    seto1

    [20]Nov 17, 2010
    • member since: 02/13/07
    • level: 16
    • rank: Church Lady
    • posts: 2,085

    Ok one false notion you seem to have is that each chevron represents a single point in space it does not, these are constellations of stars which in of them self represent large areas ,on such scales six points are useful and once again given the area represented they are enough for all the gates in the galaxy.With regards to the seventh symbol being to simply say when dialing is done this really wouldnt make sense since there is a button that does this on the DHD, since the last part of the dialing process the palm is touched to the center orb.I'll agree with you that many errors were made early in the show for instance gates lighting up even before the dialing process is completed thats crazy .

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.