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Supernatural S09E14: "Captives"

Welp, that was a rather misleading episode promo, wasn't it? Just saying, I've been pining for the inevitable "haunted bunker" storyline pretty much since the introduction of the Men of Letters HQ and... whatever. Because KEVIN TRAN. I saw Osric Chau's name in the credits and made the most obnoxious dolphin noises. Kevin's pseudo-return was such a pleasant surprise that even though "Captives" didn't actually feature Dean and Sam under spooky lockdown in their doomsday cave, I'm not as disappointed as I could be. Supernatural even threw in Kevin's badass mom as a bonus.

But of course, this is still Supernatural, so Kevin's return wasn't all sunshine and continuations of the show's arbitrary decisions regarding who gets to come back from the dead (sort of) and who doesn't. Dean gave Kevin the ol' salt and burn treatment back when Gadreel wasted him, so according to Supernatural's own mythology, that should've been plenty to send the kid to that big Advanced Placement study session in the sky... except that as it turns out, with Metatron in charge, the pearly gates have been slammed shut and the souls of the newly departed are locked out. 

Also, it appears that the show is pulling a Bobby and gluing Kevin's soul to a cherished possession. Hopefully we'll avoid repeating Bobby's storyline in its entirety, however, because it was crappy the first time around; sometimes dead is better, Supernatural! Sometimes dead is better! 


But anyway, yeah, at the moment, fresh souls are literally locked out of heaven, just like in the Bruno Mars song. That has the potential to be interesting, because how's a hunter supposed to end a haunting if there's nowhere to send the soul? Also: KEVIN TRAN. Kevin Tran conversing via coffeemaker. Kevin Tran telling the Winchesters to get over themselves. Kevin Tran haunting his mommy because she wants him to. I need Kevin Tran to come be my ghost BFF. I just have a lot of Kevin Tran feelings. 

I have a lot of Castiel feelings, too. Bartholomew—who was once poised to be one of Season Fine's Big Bads (but not really, in retrospect)—sassed the wrong reluctant revolutionary and got himself shanked in the process. Now Cas has a bit of a following and he's really, really not into it. So much better than being hunted down though, right? RIGHT?

Reluctant revolutionary Castiel has a lot in common with accidental boy-king Sam from back in the day. Supernatural really loves its Sam/Castiel parallels this season, doesn't it? What's more, the current Castiel of 2014 is inching ever so close to becoming a more half-baked version of his Doomsday 2014 self, at least concerning the whole "I really don't wanna fight, man, but if I have to, I'll totes eff you up" mindset. 


"Captives" was a subdued return after Supernatural's short hiatus. It's not that the episode wasn't enjoyable, but it felt restrained in places, and despite the progress made toward the season's main story—souls trapped in the veil, the end of Bart, the "return" of Kevin—it just didn't have the feel of an important installment, and I can't quite put my finger on why. I didn't feel myself flying into a rage over anything, and maybe that was the problem? Supernatural excels at eliciting some seriously heavy emotion from its viewers. Like, I'm pretty sure Season 5 contributed to a grad school drinking problemo. The fact that Dean and Sam are still fighting—even after Ghost Kevin's wise, sage monologue—is painful. Bad episodes of Supernatural make me angry because I know the show is capable of being really great, but when an episode leaves me speechless in a weird way, I'd almost rather the episode had outright sucked, because then at least I'd have something to say and passionate (if misguided) arguments to add some sparkle. Let's be clear: "Captives" did not suck.

But even though I didn't mind "Captives," it was an important episode that never really felt important. The action was there, but the tone was off. Kevin's back, but not really, and now I'm going to worry that he'll get the full Bobby treatment because Supernatural tends to kill off beloved characters to reap the huge emotional impact, only to realize two episodes later that oops, fans really liked that character and there's no one to replace 'em with. Better bring them back as a zombie/ghost/demon-with-a-new-meatsuit and hope for the best. 


So Dean and Sam are still at odds, having moved on to pouting in their rooms like scorned teenagers rather than the 30-something grown-ass-men that they are (and they're actually older than that if we're counting Sam's time loop in "Mystery Spot" and both of their tenures in hell). I'm curious as to what will finally break the tension, because so far, all of the old standards have failed to crack it. In fact, that may be the biggest takeaway from this episode. Supernatural is continuing to treat the rift between Sam and Dean like a valid, serious, and inevitable conflict between two mutually wounded, human parties, rather than as an annual plot device between two fleshy Ken dolls in a risque puppet show. This conflict is bigger and deeper than the ones that came before. An impassioned plea from a dead friend just isn't going to cut it anymore, even if that dead friend is Kevin Tran XOXO <3. 



CASE NOTES

– Sam's sweater vest. :D

– I've seen so many interesting Mark of Cain theories floating around the internet. I really need Supernatural to get back to exploring that topic so I can see which ones pan out. There are a few that I'm crossing all my appendages for. Do you have any? What are your faves?

– Are we ever going to get to the supposed downside of Castiel stealing that one angel's grace a billion episodes ago?

– Castiel turning the blade on Bart was fierce. Love me some badass Cas. It's so easy to get stuck in Dean's "baby in a trenchcoat" mindset that I always love the reminders that no, Castiel is actually really powerful, capable, and deadly on his own thankyouverymuch. 

– Got any Ghost Kevin predictions? 

– Crowley wanted to keep the hostages alive and even went so far as to tell his intern to "protect" them. Do you think that was purely to keep his leverage in place or is he still more human than we think?


What'd you think of "Captives"?


Previously Aired Episode

AIRED ON 5/25/2016

Season 11 : Episode 23

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While that demon was blathering on about how much he likes murder and his own bad-arsery, I was totally expecting Dean to just say 'roll up my right sleeve a bit....' and scare the pants of the little bugger with the Mark.
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When a ghost tells the Winchesters to quit the pity parade then you know something ain't right.................enough already, it was boring when it was done the first time they had a falling out but at least way back then (season 2 and Sam ended up possessed) they actually had a valid reason. Sam caught out Dean in a lie and here we are SEVEN seasons later and NOTHING changes. You would think that in seven years they would learn something even if that something is that Sam can't trust a word that comes out of Dean's mouth because all he can do is lie. That way Sam wouldn't need to get so self righteously pissed and they can get on with the job. Give me more of the story line and less of the sob fest please.

Back to the story, welcome back Mrs Tran the most kick-ass mum in TV land. Its kind of no surprise to find she out lived her son but also desperately sad that she fought her way out of Crowley's self store dungeon only to find out Kevin had died. Here's hoping her feisty kick-assness can keep spirit Kevin from trouble and turning into something bad.

So its not just angels who are locked out of heaven but spirits to, all of them stuck in limbo with no where to go. Does that mean there is a whole heap of potential demons (given the only other place for a spirit to go is down) or will they just wait there till they turn into some psycho killing poltergeist type and get blasted, salted and burned by hunters? Interesting potential with that me thinks.

Speaking of kick ass I must admit to shouting at the screen for Cas to kill Bart the batty angel long before he did but I also get why he did it in self defence rather than out right angelcide. By doing it the way he did he has managed to turn some of the Bart faction to his way of thinking and in an angel war even Cas needs allies so here's hoping he can convince more to help him on his quest to defeat Metatron and reopen heaven.


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A very VERY wise person once said:

"You can have an emotionally stable Sam or you can have Sam with a pulse."

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with lying to a person for the right reasons..
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You would think that in seven years they would learn something even if that something is that Sam can't trust a word that comes out of Dean's mouth because all he can do is lie.

I respectfully disagree. Dean is no less trustworthy than Sam is. I don't know if anyone has added them all up (that would be an interesting project), but Sam has probably told as many lies as Dean has and some of them have been real whoppers. And as far as I can recall, none of Dean's lies have led to the end of the world. We can't say the same for Sam's secrets and lies. I agree with you that Sam gets pretty self-righteous when it comes to this issue, but I don't think he can afford to be. If lies, secrets and lack of trust are the main reasons their relationship is broken, Sam has just as much responsibiilty for that as Dean does.

Interesting point about the trapped spirits, but if hunters salt and burn a spirit now they won't be sending it to rest so I don't know if hunters have a way of dealing with vengeful spirits now. That makes the situation much worse...
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It's also worth noting that Dean and Sam's motivations for lying or keeping secrets are different. When Dean lies, 99% of the time it's to protect Sam in some way. The Gadreel situation was to save Sam's life; in season 7, not telling Sam about Amy was because Dean was afraid Sam would have another psychotic break; is season 2, Dean kept the secret about Sam going dark-side because it was his father's dying wish and he wasn't sure how it would affect Sam. In contrast, most of Sam's lies and secrets are motivated by self interest. He used his demon blood-amplified psychic powers to feel more powerful (saving victims of demonic possession was a part of it, but he admits toward the end that he liked feeling powerful); being with Ruby made him feel in-control and powerful, etc.

I'm not condoning lying and keeping secrets, especially when it has damaged their relationship so severely, but it's one thing to lie to someone to protect them and a completely different thing to lie for your own benefit.
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Agreed that Sam is no better than Dean but you'd think one of them would have learned by now that lying doesn't solve anything. Dean lied about Sam turning dark side in season 2 because Daddy Winchester asked him not to tell and look how well that turned out. Dean lied about Sam dying at the end of season 2 and then selling his soul, look how well that turned out. Dean lied about his time in hell and look how well that turned out.

Sam lied about Ruby and demon blood and look how well that turned out; Soulless Sam, Psycho Sam seeing Lucifer, Sam and Amy, Sam and the apocalypse blah blah blah. The list is endless for both of them and its one long lie fest that has gone on for the better part of SEVEN years and you'd think that ONE of them would catch on and NOT DO IT any more.

Following the lie/earth shattering secret reveal we get weeks of them moping around each other in their self righteous indignation because they had 'reasons' to lie. There is never a good reason to lie, its ALWAYS going to come back and bite you in the ass and karma is going to kick your ass to boot. Lying solves nothing and has been the root cause of 99% of their problems. The ONLY difference now (in my opinion) is that Sam has actually recognised they are their own worst enemies and that something needs to change.

I just think it would be nice for once if there were no secrets and lies and the writers would actually have the pair of them grow up and reconnect in a way that would allow the camaraderie of the first season without either of them falling back on guilt trips, endless recrimination and the constant drowning of their emotions in booze (Dean) or work (Sam).
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There is never a good reason to lie, its ALWAYS going to come back and bite you in the ass...


I'm not in favor of telling big humdingers just for the heck of it, but there are times when society has collectively decided that it's ok to bend the truth. I don't think parents who tell their children that Santa Claus is real are evil. I also know there are times when people lie to protect someone else, so I'm comfortable saying that certain lies (properly applied) may not harm anyone.
That said, this has been the biggest and most long-lasting melt-down in Dean and Sam's relationship so far. If the pain of this memory makes them lie to each other less often from now on, I'd call that a very good thing.

As much as I miss the Sam and Dean of seasons 1 and 2, I can't see the boys ever going back to that. They've both been through too much and they aren't the same people anymore. Their innocence has been lost and, once the current crisis is over, they will need to find something in each other that is still worth clinging to. I hope they do.
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I loved all the Tran scenes, but I couldn't care less for Bartolomew and all that.
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The show is seriously going down hill. I've been watching in for at least five-six years and it has no direction anymore. I didn't really give a crap about Kevin since his acting was terrible and the plot is running in circles.
I've been crossing my fingers for something great to happen to this season but it's been totally flat. I loved the episode with Kain(Cain) and the mark but that's pretty much the only strong bible reference they've had for a long time.
If the winchesters would just go on a quest to find god so he could reboot the series back to season one and safe Sam girlfriend - That'd be great.
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Crowley's intent was purely about leverage. You can threaten someone with death only once but can threaten them with pain for a lifetime. Obviously, he wasn't out to torture these people; he's a businessman (and sadist) at heart. Having his captives living and relatively unharmed makes more sense then dead.
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The one thing to keep in mind is that there is a war going on.. A war that holds the fate of two worlds..

Sam and Dean are soldiers.

The priority is the mission.

That's the long and short of it..
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Sam and Dean are soldiers. The priority is the mission.

Excellent point! Hopefully there will be time for finger pointing, healing and mutual introspection after they've saved Earth, heaven and all the souls trapped in the veil.
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Exactly. Despite their faults, Sam & Dean are the best soldiers for this war.. It makes no logistical sense to severely curtail that effectiveness by letting one of them die..

When the war is won and the Winchesters are tipping back an endless supply of cold ones, then they can play the "jerk/b!tch" game...

"She will grow up believing that her father is a traitor, but she will grow up."
-Admiral Jarok

Sam will grow old, thinking his brother is a royal class pr!ck, but he WILL grow old...

In the end, that is all that matters...
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Maybe Kevin will be lucky and avoid becoming a vengeful spirit. Not all ghosts become vengeful spirits. Remember Molly in the season 2 episode (one of my all time favorites) 'Road Kill?' She had been a ghost for 15 years and didn't even realize she was a ghost. Bobby, on the other hand, wanted revenge on Dick Roman. Once he decided to step on that path, he went downhill very fast.
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Maybe Kevin will be lucky and avoid becoming a vengeful spirit.

Kevin IS a prophet.. Perhaps that gives him certain protections...

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I find it interesting that people think Cas was bad ass in this ep. After deciding a few episodes ago that he needed to do whatever it takes to help his "kind" his big plan basically amounted to moping around. If he is not planning to take a proactive stance in helping the other angels (and humans they're destroying) then why not just stay with the Winchesters?

He doesn't want to lead, he has no suggestions, he couldn't make a clear argument with Bart on how and why things should be done differently, and then after allowing him to kill an "innocent" angel I'm supposed to cheer him on for killing Bartholomew?

A heroic "person" is someone who sometimes has to do terrible things to protect others NOT himself. And don't tell me that Castiel was being restrained. He barely flinched. He's a seraph level angel who has survived purgatory and has been fighting along side the Winchesters (aka scrappiest fighters of all time) for the last 4 years, I have no doubt that he could have obliterated everyone in that room if he wanted to.

This is not my Cas. :( And you know what I'd be okay with that, if these changes made sense to me. But I just really can't figure out where they are going with this...

Then again, I thought most of last season was weak, and then all of sudden we got As Time Goes By, Goodbye Stranger, The Great Escapist and Sacrifice which were all fantastic. So maybe the best is still yet to come?

P.S Why didn't Mrs. Tran call on Cas when she was captured?
P.P.S Remember how awesome Abaddon was last season? I miss that.
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He's a seraph level angel who has survived purgatory and has been fighting along side the Winchesters (aka scrappiest fighters of all time) for the last 4 years

Except that Castiel isn't a seraph anymore, since Metatron took his grace in the Season 8 finale. Didn't Castiel take grace from a regular angel (and not a seraph)?
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Good points, flintslady, but I think of Castiel as a reluctant hero and an emotionally wounded soldier. He still has what it takes to be a leader, but is is also still haunted and tortured by guilt over all the angels he killed the last time he ascended to power (went insane with soul-power, declared himself "god", and almost destroyed heaven). He's also very worried about making another big mistake. Remember when he told Sam that he's the only one who has messed things up more often than Sam has? I think he is burdened by that and is afraid of making another bad judgement call.

I'm sure he is torn between wanting to stop the angel civil war and unify heaven again; destroy Metatron and re-open heaven; and save as many angels (and humans) as possible -- AND trying to do all that without killing anyone he doesn't have to kill. He's hoping to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, but probably isn't yet clear about how to do that. I think he'll figure it out and end up being a great leader.
I agree with you that the best is yet to come from him this season.


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Cas has come to realize the truth of that saying about a road and good intentions..

He doesn't trust his good intentions anymore... He is going to need a couple wins under his belt to solidify the idea in his mind that he IS one of the good guys, his past notwithstanding..

Just to throw another wrench at the monkey, if Castiel can return from the Dark Side, can Gadreel??
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As for the Sam haters saying Sam needs to get over it, Dean went waaay beyond anything he has done in the past. Not only did he trick Sam into allowing Gadreel possess him without his permission, Dean allowed a TOTAL STRANGER to possess Sam. Dean knew squat about Gadreel, nothing, zero. But he said 'sure, go ahead and take over my brother!' And Sam is supposed to just get over it?
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I didn't know there were any Sam haters in the Supernatural fandom. I always thought it was agreed upon that we all love the Winchester brothers. We might prefer one to the other but no one actually dislikes any one of them.

When people say a Winchester should just get over it, we're saying move on with this plotline so we can see Winchester brotherly love again. Who actually enjoys watching two main leads be unhappy with each other for half a season? I don't care who's right. I just want them both to get over it.
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Well said, HanhKim :)
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Oh please, with all due respect. Just get over it. Yes. Know one hates Sam. How can any SPN fan hate Sam. It's just the story line, that the writers are using over and over again to get us going. Sam, being right or wrong, gave Dean what I think is , hopefully, his final message on how he wants to be handled if he should die or during his death. So start being brothers again and save the world.
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And Sam is supposed to just get over it?

With the fate of two worlds (Earth and Heaven) at stake??

Uh... yea.....
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Something about Sam just grates. Even when he's basically right, I still feel the urge to tell him to just get over it. Do you think it's his hair?

I don't think what Dean did was all that terrible. The possession IMO isn't a big deal. I think what it MEANS is a bigger deal. Sam was ready to die and Dean wouldn't allow it. Dean can't let go. That's a huge weight for Sam to bear, especially in their line of work. Kind hard to be someone's everything when you know that just means other people are going to get hurt and killed as a consequence, and that you can't just lay down in your grave when you're damn well good and ready.

These are the things that Sam needs to be saying to Dean. Stop making it all about his hurt feelings and start focusing on the cost. It's one thing for Dean to keep saying "that's on me", "it's my fault", "I'm sorry". But without modifying his behaviour what are all these guilty feelings and apologies worth?

Old Sam* would recognize this. He would force Dean to talk about it, to actually see it. Not just throw out thinly veiled insults like "you want to be brother's…" and "no I wouldn't… [stop you from dying and crossing over if you felt it was your time]"

It's like he's more interested in proving that he's a better person than Dean, instead of helping him see why he might have made the wrong choice and why.

It smacks of arrogance and pretension, which is why I think people find it so easy to hate him. (Not saying they should, just saying)

*Or Bobby, or Castiel, or Benny or some random hot hookup. It's funny when the world was falling down around him and he had a bunch of people to rely on, he shut them out and became an alcoholic. Now the world is falling apart, he's gotten multiple people killed, he has no support group and is for the first time truly alone, and he's somehow able to hold it together. HUH?
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His hair? Could be. lol Yes, Dean needs to change his behavior. Every time he apologizes to Sam, and Sam accepts the apology, he sucker punches Sam with another lie down the road. Look how easily he lied to Sam about Garth in 'Sharp Tooth.' And Sam sure isn't innocent when it comes to lying. They both need someone to bang their heads together.
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I am not a Sam hater, but In Dean's defense, Castiel did vouch for Ezekiel and since Dean trusts Castiel he had reason to trust Zeke's intentions at the time. He also wanted to tell Sam right away (and MANY times afterward), but Zeke talked him out of it by convincing him Sam would die. Zeke also continued to gain Dean's trust by resurrecting Castiel and Charlie, and saving Sam (more than once). There was no obvious indication that Zeke was a bad guy until the end.

I agree that Dean was overstepping (which he has done many times to protect Sam) and he made a split-second decision that ended up being a mistake. I don't think that's way beyond -- it's pretty much in line with where the brothers have been. Sam gets into trouble and Dean moves heaven, hell, and Earth to save him. Have they lied to each other and kept secrets? Yes - plenty of times. So if that's where their relationship has ended up, it's as much Sam's fault as it is Dean's. If this last episode was way beyond, it's only because the line wasn't clear in the first place. You can't draw a line in the sand after the other person has already crossed over it -- that's not fair.

It's not like Sam hasn't lied, kept secrets and made a TON of huge mistakes that have endangered and hurt Dean, and rocked the stability and foundation of the entire universe. Dean has always found a way to forgive him, so he deserves the same.
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Well said....
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Good point. I forgot that Castiel vouched for Zeke. Both Dean and Castiel got suckered because Castiel didn't know Zeke was actually Gadreel.
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Yeah, the Sam hate hurts my soul.
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I hope Mama Tran is safe and Kevin doesn't deteriorate too fast. Bobby's ghost went downhill fast.
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Maybe Kevin will not deteriorate because he is stuck in the veil. It's not that he refused to go to heaven. He never intended to stay on earth. While in the veil he maybe able to work with Sam and Dean. The veil maybe protecting him from deterioration.
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If their egos healed as quickly as their bodies seem to, maybe we'd have some fresh plot up in this biz!
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I like how Kevin coming back highlighted a plot point (unlike Bobby's that just felt like the writer's had a panic attack over the fan response) but please keep him to a minimum.

The Bart story however has really rubbed me the wrong way. I've commented before about how this season seems overcrowded and this episode solidified this for me. There was alot of talk about things that have happened (purging another faction, getting rid of the crazy preacher recruitment officer) but these all felt like things that should have been happening on-screen.

As much as I like the other stories (Abbadon, mark of Cain etc.) I feel like they are taking away from what should be the focus (the damn title screen has angel wings!). Other seasons have always had the one major threat (Lucifer, Yellow-Eyes, Leviathan, Alphas/Eve, the Trials?) but this season has a couple. Either they are going to find a way to bring all plot points together, something's going to get missed/underdeveloped or one (or more) are going to bleed over into next season.

Final point, I can see why the brother's are at odds once again but this seems to be getting dragged out too. The longer they keep this up the bigger a resolution it's going to need and I don't think they're going to hit the right note with it.
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It is sort of intense with like a real legitimate issue between the boys. Maybe they need their pseudo sister to return from Oz.

I have no valid ideas about the mark of Cain other than wondering shouldn't it be giving Dean a bit of a leg up in dealing with the demon lackey. And Dean Crowley is searching in the deepest ocean for the sword or whatever. ..cell service is probably sketchy.

I am going to guess Kevin discovers he asthe last prophet can probably access the gates. He probably can't do anything about Megatron but still.
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Metatron.
Megatron is transformers =)
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My phone and I were fighting over that for like five full minutes. It kept changing it to Megatron (and I have no idea why that would be in my autocorrect dictionary, I can honestly say I've never had a conversation about Transformers in my life). I thought I had gotten it committed and of course it changes it. At least my issue in the Teen Wolf forums is self imposed because I accidentally spelled it Nogitune the first time, my phone won't accept Nogistune now. As you can see there is real punctuation, I am at my work computer right now.
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I used to adore this show, but now, over the last few seasons, I've become really disenchanted. It's the same recycled ol' stories over and over! Sam is hurt and Dean is crying by his bedside or Sam and Dean are fighting--those are the two default tropes, and I'm sorry but I stayed in school long enough to get a law degree and need better, more convincing entertainment! I've stuck it out for Sam and Dean (whose characters I love), but I can't take it anymore; it's too frustrating. Moreover, with all the fans' talk about "curing" their codependency, I find myself even more unsettled by what's to come. Some of us actually like their codependency and see it as the show's main underpinning. Plus, I think Jared needs to get the name of LeAnn Rimes's counselor for social media addiction. Badmouthing the Beebs is fine, but insulting the family of one of the most respected actors of our time isn't cool.
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Who did he insult? Give me all the deets.

I stopped following his twitter when he started talking shit about the hullabaloo around Kate and Will's baby out of one side of his mouth and then announced his second child out of the other. #comeonnow
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I haven't watched it a second time, but did anyone else think that they heard Candy mention there were three people locked up? The entire time I was waiting for them to open a door and find Meg locked up.

I also don't think Kevin is a proper ghost like Bobby. I don't think he's bound by something, I think he's just stuck in the veil and since they're linked to the place they died they figured maybe tiger mommy could take him with her with some of his stuff. I don't think we'll see too much of him. Although we still don't know who his real father is.
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Oh gods, if Meg was in there and they missed her, I would just DIE! But the producers confirmed she'd proper dead... :(
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Yes, three people locked. It was odd that they didn't at least show the other containers empty
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Were only angels expelled from heaven or all the soles inhabiting it as well? This may have already been addressed this but the shows pace of telling rather than showing has quickened in a big way the past two seasons.
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Were only angels expelled from heaven or all the soles inhabiting it as well?

The show hasn't addressed this, but there's been no evidence that Ashe, Pamela or anyone else we know from heaven has been kicked out. Kevin didn't mention any of them being stuck in the veil...
So far we've only been told that newly-departed souls destined for heaven can't get in, and (of course) all the angels got the boot.
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This was a much needed episode that hopefully, maybe will soon put the show back on track. As Maryanne said an " important episode ". I have a feel we still haven't seen the last of Kevin. A profit from beyond, helping Sam and Dean read the angel tables . Cass taking over the Angels on earth. trying to find Metatron and re open the gates of heaven. Cas becoming human, help him view life from the human world. While Sam and Dean doing the heavenly trials. This is what I see happening. As for closing down hell and the Mark of Cain. I have no Idea yet.
I saw the beautiful old Sam, that was always compassionate towards people come back. When Mrs. Tran was speaking about seeing her son in the dungeon ( or whatever it was ) you saw Sam's was really feeling for Mrs. Tran.

But the brotherly rift is still there. Something else maybe the cause of Sam's anger because the way I see it Dean sure got Sam's message and I think that he'll think twice before attempting to bring Sam from the dead in these very un natural circumstances. But again Dean is Dean. This episode brought back a little hope for me, because of the story line. Anyway, good episode.
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I enjoyed the episode up until the end - because I didn't see the end. CW's streaming apparently sucks because it cut off 30 seconds before the actual end of the episode, just as Kevin was starting to talk to Sam and Dean. I missed the big painful emotional speech and I feel like I was cheated out of it. Even though emotional pain is actually not a good thing. It's weird how that works.. I want to see it D:
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It seems that the writers are trying to use the brothers conflict again as it seems to always work for previous seasons (if aint broke don't fix it) I do agree with comment below regarding Cas when he tries to do good it usually ends badly .
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Sam needs to get over it. He really wants to hold it against Dean for saving his life? He's got a short memory, after all he is the one who was suckling on demon blood and paved the way for Lucy to make his grand return. Its not the first time the boys have parted ways, and eventually they'll get over it. I just wish that Moose wasn't such a baby about it.

Nothing good happens when Cas has followers.

If all the angels were cast out of heaven, then where's Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Too much of a Holy Cow for the show to address.

This show, much like my current comment, has a lot of ADD. Let's introduce the Mark of Lassie and then not use it for a couple episodes. We'll throw you a jawbone, then Psych! we'll pull it back.

Ghost Kevin Prediction: He (quantum) leaps into Whoopi Goldberg's body and accosts an unsuspecting pottery student.

Can't wait for Ghost Facers. Both actors had/have roles on Justified. Possible Supernatural/Justified crossover? What would Raylon Givens do with the Colt? nerdgasm.

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Didn't we already meet Jesus? Joshua in the Garden in season 5, the lone entity that still spoke to God on the regular. He's probably still watering the plants and continuing not to gaf.
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Joshua is/was the Garden of Eden's gardener or grounds keeper I think they called him. I don't think he is an angel or even if he is dead.


I think he is also was the person ( or whoever ) God spoke to for company.
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Pretty sure he's been stated as being an angel, otherwise he wouldn't be entrusted with tending the Garden (which BTW is NOT the Garden of Eden, that would be on Earth someplace). I also kind of remember Metatron telling someone he killed him just don't recall who or what episode.
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Um, no he's Joshua not Jesus and I thought there was something about him being killed. If not he should have been banished with every other angel.
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I was going with a straight translation when considering Joshua's possible "true" identity. Yeshua=Joshua in English. Yeshua=Zesus=Jesus in Greek. I figured they didn't want to cause too much of a hullabaloo.
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I guess it's possible but I would think if you were going that way you would be a bit more obvious than that. Guess it could go either way but I thought Metatron said something about having killed him or something. Don't remember too clearly so I can't be too sure.
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Not a re.igious scholar or anything but I'm pretty sure Jesus isn't an angel or even arch angel he's something else altogether.
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In Catholicism, and in (most?) other Christian faiths, Jesus is God - they're the same being.
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Does it really matter where Jesus is? This show has no respect for any other gods, why should they bother with what is essentially a demi-god? They'll probably 'put a twist' on Jesus so he's a bad guy and have the boys stick an evergreen branch in him like all the other gods they encounter...
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that would be sweet!
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No you are right. I said it wrong. Sorry for the on going comments guy's
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Tried to bring in a diagrams but didn't work. What I am trying to say is we can be both right. The father is not the son or the holy spirit. The son is not the father or the holy spirit and the holy spirit is not the father or son. But the three of them make up the trinity . Which makes who God is.
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learned something new here
didn't know the catholics had such a cool mythology.
I also heard that the holy ghost is somewhat special and under no circumstances can you make fun of him. So it seems that even as long as 2.000 years ago there were some pretty good writers around.
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Then we know He/They are AWOL
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Yes, he is the Son of God, but the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one God. They're the same entity. At least, that's how it is in Catholicism. 'm a well-learned Catholic; I was simplifying things a bit to be concise.
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in some beliefs, or interpretations Jesus, is actually the archangel Micheal. But yah mostly Jesus is something different.
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It seems to me that, since souls are stuck in the veil, they are not being schlepped to heaven..

The next logical step would be to talk to reapers and see if their take on heaven being closed..

Tessa, Death anyone? I hope so... Love them both...
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The next logical step would be to talk to reapers and see their take on heaven being closed..Tessa, Death anyone?

I was thinking about that, too. In episode 1 of this season, Sam was talking to Death about dying forever and making sure he could never be brought back. It didn't sound like Sam would have been going into the veil, and the WInchesters had already been told (by Joshua in season 5) that god had granted them both salvation i.e. heaven when they did finally die. So either Sam was going into the veil with the rest of the newly departed (seems unlikely); or Sam was not going to heaven, but was destined for purgatory or hell, and Death just didn't tell him that (also seems unlikely); or Death didn't know that souls could no longer get into heaven (incredibly unlikely); or Death is the only individual with enough power to personally shuttle a soul into heaven even with the gates being closed -- that seems like the most reasonable scenario. If Death could wrench Sam's soul from Lucifer's cage, maybe he can back-door souls into heaven?
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If Death could wrench Sam's soul from Lucifer's cage, maybe he can back-door souls into heaven?

Taking that to it's next logical step, that would mean Sam would have been "behind enemy lines" with a shot at Metatron..
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Death is bad arse. I want to see him again. Though I doubt he'd take sides, unless he's particularly offended by the treatment of the souls he reaps
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Any episode with Death is definitely a keeper... Bonus points for Tessa... :D
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Something that's bugging me with the ep is that Del gave me the impression that he didn't kill Candy, but it was him, wasn't it?
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This episode was calm and not much happened in it. However, it is clear that Sam wasn't happy being told to move on. I mean, I understand where he comes from, but the fact is that the friction between him and Dean is making things worse. This continues and they will end with a worse relationship than the ones between Elijah and Klaus on the Originals and Stefan and Damon on TVD.
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wow, did we see the same show ?
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Sam and Dean just need to sit down and write their living wills already. Given how much dying and near-dying they do on a regular basis, it's kind of ridiculous they hadn't discussed it and establish some firm ground rules (while everyone's calm and sane) about this issue long ago. And they need to be willing to accept each other's parameters for when to/not to bring each other back going forward. In the real world, family members do sometimes have to make horrific decisions for each other about how far to go while one member is incapacitated-- including whether to amputate limbs, etc. to save someone's life! So, IMO, Sam's got some things to be thankful for-- if not to Dean, then to Fate or whatever. Even though the "treatment" (angelic possession) was scary, he's got his body back all healed and in one (beautiful!) piece now, and he didn't die and get stuck in the Veil and risk turning into a vengeful spirit with the other ghosts who got locked out of Heaven. Kevin is the one who really got stuck with the bill in all this, and even he has now made it clear that he doesn't want his death to come between Dean and Sam. So with all that in mind, I tend to agree that it's time for them to settle the issue like adults and move on. Frankly, I can't think of what else anyone could really say at this point to make it "better" than it is now... I think this may just be as good as it can really get.
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Well, they kinda did. The agreement was to let go and move on. Of course even Bobby said that agreement wasn't really an agreement anyway and, of course Dean is never going go along with that while Sam took it at face value. That's the thing, they're just very different on this issue and Sam was right when he said that Dean didn't do it for him but for himself. Further, I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding about what Sam is mad about. It's not that Dean brought him back (at least not fully) it is how. He lied and tricked Sam into saying yes to some random angel and look what happened. That is what Sam is rightly mad about.
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it is clear that Sam wasn't happy being told to move on. I mean, I understand where he comes from, but the fact is that the friction between him and Dean is making things worse.

I agree with you, but the thing that really sticks in my throat is that I don't think there's anything Dean can say or do to resolve this. He already tried to explain why he did what he did -- that wasn't good enough for Sam. He also tried to defend it -- also not good enough. He can't take it back - although I'm pretty sure Sam knows that Dean never expected the bad consequences that happened (and let's be fair -- Dean only had a few seconds to make the final decision to let Ezekiel/Gadreel in -- it's not like he had a long time to consider all the potential consequences). All that's left is for Dean to apologize, and I'm not even sure Sam will accept that. It feels like Sam just wants more time to beat this drum until he feels vindicated. I feel very sad for both of them. It's just a bad situation all around.
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I thought it was a good episode, it was nice to have Kevin back - even if he was a ghost. I know a lot of people are weary when it comes to ghosts (because of Ghost Bobby) but I think it makes sense to have Kevin still be around since Metatron closed the Pearly Gates to Heaven. It was nice to have Mrs. Tran back, and I LOVE that Kevin called Dean and Sam out on their crap, he is right they need to get OVER it, but it wouldn't have been right if they both just let go of it all because Kevin said so. THEY need to be the ones to let go, hopefully that happens sooner than later. Castiel took out Bartholomew and now has a following, which should be interesting to see since Cass doesn't appear to have any interest in that at all. I am ready for what happens next, because so much is up in the air right now - Abaddon running around causing havoc and recruiting demons, Dean's mark of Cain, Malachi and his band of ruthless angels, Crowley and whatever he is up to (he always has some kind of trick up his sleeve), Metatron and his devious plans and Gadreel, a reluctant but active participant of Metatron's plans. So much is going on with no end in sight with any of it - I can't wait to see what the rest of the season has in store.
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I was really hoping that this episode would have the return of Bobby. I love Kevin in the show but the shows quality has dropped since Bobby was killed. Jim made a twitter announcement he would be back coming back as Bobby this season and not as a ghost. Anybody have more on this? Like when he is supposed to return?
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He came back in the first episode, as a manifestation in Sam's coma-state, urging him to finally give up the fight and pass on.
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Yeah but he is supposed to be coming back as a series regular meaning more then just that one episode.
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No... I don't think so. I'm pretty sure his tweet was in reference to his appearance in Sam's head in the first episode. I don't think he, or anyone else, ever said he was coming back as a series regular.
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He was confirmed to come back as a regular according to the interview I saw. That is all I am saying.
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Kevin Tran speaks from my soul. Enough with the fucking angst and drama already! We got enough problems as it is.
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Ghostfacers next week. That's the spin off I was hoping for....
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I cannot wait to see the Ghost facers episode, because A.J. Buckley is looking downright scary on Justified.


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Forgive the late arrival, but I am on a 12-16hour time delay here...

I have to admit that I am of a different mind that this was just a so-so/OK episode..

My reaction was simply... WOW...

Initially I thought that the Kevin haunt would be played out w/o the actual visual of Kevin. Seeing the credits roll made my heart leap..

YES!!! KEVIN'S BACK!!!!

I was simply floored by this episode. Loved it. With two nit-picks (one minor, one not so minor) I unequivocally and whole-heartedly LOVED the episode..

Seeing Castiel the leader of a good/righteous faction???

Icing on the cake..

My only nitpicks...

Minor: Com'on, Dean!!! You should have had your knife/gun out the second you found the Barney doll.. For you to be suckered like that is just.... embarrassing...

Not So Minor: I gotta agree with Kevin.. Jeezus, guys, get OVER yerselves already...

And, at the risk of being labled a "Sam-Hater" (AGAIN :D) I gotta put the onus on Sam.. Dean has, MORE than once, extended the hand of forgiveness only to pull back a bloody stump...

Sam, it's time to release your burdens...

Get over it already.. The sheet is gonna hit the fan soon and you need to quit nursing your ego...


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What exactly Dean have to forgive Sam for? Dean's the one to reached out to a random angel (knowing full well that most of them are trouble and can't be trusted), helped this angel to trick a yes out of Sam then lied to him and hid it from him for months. Dean has no right here. Sam is the wounded party and it's up to him to decided when enough is enough.
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Sam is the wounded party and it's up to him to decided when enough is enough.

With the fate of two worlds at stake, Sam is simply being selfish by pouting..

Address the current problem first. Then I am sure that Dean will throw Sam a pity party. Heck, I'll even bring the balloons..

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Sam's being a major douche. I get why , but nevertheless...Dean saved hsi ass for the umpteenth time.. Some grattitude would be nice..just a smidgen!
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To me I think the lying is probably the deepest cut and it's not easily forgiven or forgotten. Also, something I don't think anyone has mentioned is that Sam had (before this) been possessed twice (once by Meg and once by Lucifer) and neither have exactly been great experiances so to have his own brother set up possession number three has got be really bad.
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I'm sure Sam does blame Dean somewhat for Kevin for setting up the situation but I'm also guessing he has some memory of it and feels like he did it himself and is much more to blame.
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I think Sam blames Dean for Kevin's death too...
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Sam is the wounded party and it's up to him to decided when enough is enough.

I understand that Sam feels wounded, but he should still give Dean a way to make things right. Kevin also felt wronged, but he was big enough (and surprisingly mature enough) to tell Dean and Sam that they could "make things right" if they found his mother. I'm not saying the slate should be wiped, but Sam should give Dean a way (and a chance) to make things right. Dean obviously can't take back what he did. He's tried to defend and explain his actions, but Sam won't accept either of those. I'm not sure an apology would get any further.
It's one thing to be angry, but continuing to punish someone just becomes cruel after a while.
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I don't see HOW you make something like this right short of learning from the exseriance and deciding if the situation happens again to let Sam go. Not sure Dean CAN do that.
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I don't see HOW you make something like this right short of learning from the exseriance and deciding if the situation happens again to let Sam go. Not sure Dean CAN do that.

If Sam really believes that Dean can't change, then there's truly no reason to continue punishing his brother. The last two times Dean shut off his "I'm-going-to-protect-you-no-matter-what" switch Sam (1) jumped into Lucifer's cage and (2) nearly killed himself doing the tablet trials. Both times, it went against everything in him, but Dean let it happen because Sam asked him to. Dean has done a tremendous amount of "growing" as far as letting Sam make these decisions. I think he deserves some credit for that. The next time, Sam may just get what he wished for and end up not liking the outcome!

Sam has made a TON of mistakes, too, and many of them have left Dean feeling betrayed, hurt, rejected, and abandoned (which we all know is his biggest fear). Yet, Dean has always found a way to forgive him -- most of the time without any apology from Sam. I know Sam feels wronged, but enough is enough. We ALL make mistakes and we ALL deserve forgiveness and a chance to grow.
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"Supernatural is continuing to treat the rift between Sam and Dean like a valid, serious, and inevitable conflict between two mutually wounded, human parties, rather than as an annual plot device between two fleshy Ken dolls in a risque puppet show."


I do like this isn't easily resolved, though it ends up being yet more Wangst. It's not brushed off with a couple beers and a Bob Seger song, and both have valid reasons for their feelings. I do feel Sam is being a little more immature, but I can see him being fully ready to move on and Dean denying him that WOULD maybe make me a little bitchy, too.

So Bart is our big bad for....oh, nevermind. It is one of SPN's talents that, with such a vast world to work with, if something really just isn't as interesting BAM! KILL IT! and move on to something else. Wish we'd have done that with the Leviathans, but...

I think the point is Cas IS a leader, but God-Cas was not the way for him. I've felt this way for at least the last couple years that Cas's journey is to unite the angels again into something better based on his years of traveling with the Winchesters and his own experiences. That he's reluctant about it is part of that arc, but I think it's where he'll ultimately end up (though as a good angel, not a crazy emotionless one).

That's kinda been what I've seen a lot of this season: maturity. Maybe not always where we want it to go, but everyone is establishing who they'll decide to really be. Dean is no longer like his father, and he cares more about protecting and saving people than killing monsters (which has been a subtle change over the years), Cas may not know the right way, but he knows the current paths of angels is wrong, and Sam is the weary one who just wants to stop doing this some day. It's not been likable 100% but it does feel more honest.
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It's not brushed off with a couple beers and a Bob Seger song,

NEVER underestimate the power for brewskis and Seger... :D
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Even though the final stomp-off-to-their-rooms scene didn't exactly reek of maturity, I think it's clear that the characters are making progress. I particularly noticed that Dean's fear of being associated with anything girl-related seemed to be ratcheted WAY down in this episode... He didn't really even respond to Sam's quip about calling Crowley repeatedly and him being "just not that into you." He listened to music instead of getting blackout drunk when he was stressed out, and he was even using a pink iPod (Charlie's?), and finally, he actually talked out loud about his feelings re:Kevin-- something that surely would've been "chick flick" territory for him not so long ago. It just seems like he's finally getting to be more secure in his manliness now, which is something I think is long overdue, imo!
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Overall an okay episode. I love Kevin so don't have a problem with him coming back as a ghost. Glad to see Mrs. Tran and have that issue resolved. Don't care, don't care, don't care about the Cas/Bart/angel storyline. So boring. Bothered very much with storyline continuity. Since heaven has been closed Charlie died and went to heaven briefly, ghost mom from the episode with Dean flashbacks evaporated to somewhere, so don't think so writers. I swear they need to hire 3 superfans, who would probably work for free, to read scripts and help with continuity issues. They are so frequent! As for the Cain mark, I am ready for that to go somewhere soon! I read a theory that the curse is that that the person remains alone. Cain led a solitary "life" as a demon. Sam won't give Dean the time of day. I think this theory holds some weight.
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I don't see an issue there really. We have no proof that torching the bones of an active ghost sends them to the afterlife. In fact there's been a long running theory that it just destroys them and I don't recall anything that settled that issue before. As for Charley I don't recall what she said exactly but her death was so quick she could have just misunderstood whatever she saw.
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As for Charley I don't recall what she said exactly but her death was so quick she could have just misunderstood whatever she saw.

Charlie dreamed of Christmas and that both of her parents were still alive. Dorothy the hunter told Charlie that she had died and gone to heaven:
"Heaven -- it's your dream life. And if you were zapped by the Wicked Witch Instant death. I would know. She killed me, too."
So apparently Charlie died and went to Heaven, unless Dorothy was wrong.
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God-Charlie alert??
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Probably wrong or something fishy is going on.
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I'm trying to get my girlfriend hooked, but this episode didn't help very much. Other than her asking "so wait, angels and demons can just be killed by getting stabbed?" "...well, basically, I guess.." she was mostly just playing candy crush during it. le sigh.

I was happy to see Kevin's face again but it didn't really feel necessary to bring him back. That said, I am glad that his mom is OK and that they tied that loose end up.

I can't wait until Sam slays gadreel. PS: Cass needs to take this opportunity to be the leader that heaven needs and start unifying angels in a productive way..without becoming a mass murderer. Just kill Metatron and his minions, Cass. That's all you gotta do.
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No offesnse dude but I don't think there's hope for anyone who plays Candy Crush ever. :)
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Hey, I play Candy Crush !! :)
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A better episode since last time and closure to the kevin story and a chance for a reflection for Sam and Dean , But the writers still want that conflict their and I think it will get resolved for the finale. Castiel is finally trying to take a place amongst the Angels by uniting the Factions still can't escape from murdering them still.
I liked the geeky demon guy one of Crowley leftovers and it looks like next episode is a more funnier and lighter episode with the ghosthunters.
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they're ghostfacers!!!!! lol
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A better episode since last time and... a chance for a reflection for Sam and Dean , But the writers still want that conflict their and I think it will get resolved for the finale.

I truly hope the writers don't wait until the finale to resolve this conflict. In my opinion, it has already gone on for too long and I'm losing patience waiting for the brothers to move past this. How can they fight evil if they're wasting so much effort fighting each other. I miss the days when they were fighting the good fight together as brothers and not -- what -- "business partners". I know there are "layers" to this conflict, but it's really all about forgiveness - it's not that complicated. If this lasts until the finale, it will make season 9 my least favorite season of all.
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Cas killing Big Bad Wannabe Bartholomew was the only thing I agreed with this episode. As for Kevin coming back: No. No, no, nonononononono! Kevin can NOT come back this early! It's been only 5 episodes since he died, and unlike Bobby, whose ghost was HINTED at for 7 episodes before the big reveal at the end of "Party On, Garth," there wasn't even a single hint that Kevin was still around. Ok, I guess it makes sense that with Heaven boarded up no one can enter the pearly gates (which kind of makes you wonder what would happen if Sam and Dean were successful in closing Hell. If the nice dead people like Kevin are at risk of becoming crazed spirits like Dean said, imagine if none of the wicked dead people could enter Hell. Dean wouldn't have to worry about demons, yeah, but he'd be up to his eyeballs in ghosts.) but my gripe is just that this is, once again, a rehash of a story used a few years back... and a BAD story as well. Ghost Bobby was one of the worst story arcs in the entire series, it had nice build up but after the reveal Ghost Bobby did pretty much NOTHING except get angrier and angrier until Sam and Dean finally torched him. Ghost Boby completely ruined a great character that had one of the saddest deaths in Supernatural history, and now they're doing it again with Kevin, only worse this time! At least Jim Beaver was uncredited in "Party On, Garth," which made Ghost Bobby's reveal a big shock. But right off the bat we see flashbacks of Kevin, and Osric Chau's name appeared right in the first second of the episode, causing me to say "Oh, god, no." Uggghhhh...

Another thing... WHERE THE HELL WAS CRYING CROWLEY AND SNOOKIE? The promos for this episode showed Crowley in Dean's bed sobbing and an apparent demon taking the form of Snookie, and none of those things happened. Has Supernatural gone off the rails, cause I haven't been this pissed at an episode since the Sam/Amelia flashback fest back in season 8. The ONLY redeeming quality is that the annoying angel baddie Bart is dead. Now that he's gone we can hopefully focus on the REAL Big Bads, Metatron and Abbadon. (though I REALLY hope Abbie gets more stuff to do. What was the point in reviving an indestructible demon woman if all she does is sit in the background?) I give this episode a 3.5 out of 10. (2 for Cas killing Bart, and another 1.5 for Kevin acting more mature than the Winchesters in forgiving Sam and calling him and Dean out for their needless wangst.)
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That's what ghosts do, they get angrier and angerier until they have to be put down.
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WHERE THE HELL WAS CRYING CROWLEY AND SNOOKIE? The promos for this episode showed Crowley in Dean's bed sobbing and an apparent demon taking the form of Snookie, and none of those things happened.

I only found this on the Supernatural Wiki page, but the preview was for the next three episodes -- not just this one. I think the boys meet the ghostfacers in next week's episode when they find they are all investigating the same case. I wish the network had made it more clear that the promo was a "coming soon" promo and not just this one episode.
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i was very bored with this ep for some reason. i was playing my PS Vita most of the time.
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i'm glad there is a recap, so i can actually know what happened in the show. ha
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bad-ass Cass. That saved this episode for me. I was worried he'd fall for Bart's "Kill now to save later" spiel and then we'd return to Cass killing half of heaven stance. But he didn't and it might have been a bit too fortuitous that Bart's followers come find him, but I was just relieved that Cass handed the blade to Bart fully expecting to be killed. As for the Tran saga, I've never been fully into either Kevin or his mom, yes it sucks he got killed, but I've never been invested in his place on the show. I only know it sucks because Dean got all mad about him being killed. Compare that to me crying when Bobby went, and you get what I mean.
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Castiel is a badass (with his heart in the right place.)
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Why the show just can't let the dead characters stay dead? It's the same as TVD they kill characters just to bring them back in some stupid way and kill them again.
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I hope the actors had fun making this episode, because I didn’t have much fun watching it. I’m weary of the distance between the brothers. I suspect something catastrophic will have to happen for Sam to realize that he won't just let his brother die. On a positive note, even though Sam is still very angry, in The Purge and Captives, he immediately started looking for Dean when something went wrong and he thought Dean might need help. He also saved Dean from a demon in this episode. Maybe that means he’s on the way to true forgiveness, which will be a big step for him. Hey, Sam, if Dean can forgive you for abandoning him in purgatory (without understanding why, by the way, and with no apology from you), you should be big enough to forgive him for what he did! I hope the brothers find their way back together soon because I’m sick of the bitterness and fighting.

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For the record I don't think Sam meant he would just let Dean die so much as he meant he wouldn't go to the extraodrinary means Dean did to save him. He's still going to try and save him from danger and treat wounds just not try and raise him from the dead or call on supernatural help if he's dying and there's no other way.
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I've been re-watching some eps, and that's exactly what Lisa told Dean in "You Can't Handle The Truth" when she was telling him how screwed up his relationship with his brother is. As she put it: she's close to her sister, doesn't mean her first instinct was to raise her from the dead... :-)
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Yeah, Dean's whole life has been caring for and protecting Sam and he can't let go but there has to be a point someday when he does. It's not a healthy cycle at all.
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The distance between the brothers is certainly not much fun, but I think at this point, really necessary. There's a truckload of crap between them that they never dealt with. This time, they're taking it seriously. I don't think Sam really meant that he wouldn't save Dean. What he meant was that he wouldn't save him AT ALL COSTS. I think that's an important distinction. He wouldn't make another deal, he wouldn't stop Dean from saving the world. Yes, he wouldn't "just" let his brother die - but, if the stakes were high enough and this was Dean's choice - he would respect it. Dean didn't, because he didn't want to be the one left alone - that's what Sam's thinking. Of course I understand why Dean's hurt by that, too. But they've been co-dependant on each other for a long time and f**k all else - that's not really healthy, for either of them.

But I do hope they find their way back together (in a healthy, more mature way) and soon, please.
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You know what sucks though? (For me anyway). This is not who Sam used to be, he was always a little more mature and grounded in reality than Dean, but there was nothing he wouldn't do to save his brother. Somewhere between Purgatory and now, that changed. I don't think they gave us a very good explanation on why it changed, but whatever, it did. Sam can see a life outside hunting, he can accept that all people have their time, and he doesn't want anyone dying, making deals etc to save him, and he's not really interested in dying, making deals, etc. to save others either. Ok cool, I can accept that. That's a character arc right?

Dean too has always been ready to sacrifice himself and or whoever else is in the way to save his family (John, Bobby, Cas) especially Sam. We saw it over and over again. From season 1 to season 4. And we dealt with it, we talked about it, we dissected it, rationalized it, learned from it and finally at the end of Season 5, Dean fought against it. And won. He let Sam die to save the world. It didn't make him happy, he was a mess for along time after (as he says), but his character grew and evolved.

Now let's skip ahead to end of Season 8. Once again Dean is in a place where he can let Sam die to "save" the world, but this time he doesn't do it. He can't. But does he reference the last time, does he talk about any substantial and relevant reason why he can't go through with again? This is the time to do it right to get deeply emotional and philosophical? BUT NO!! He gives some bullshit about how he can't do it without him, it's them together against the world blah blah blah. And Sam (who is clearly out his mind so can't really be held accountable for his actions) goes along with it.

What I'm trying to say here, is that Sam's character has moved forward. And Dean's has moved backward, and it's not working, because it doesn't make sense. This fight between them is annoying and we just want it to move forward and end, because it's not really dealing with the real issues between them.

Dean saving Sam because he doesn't want to be left alone is a weak rehash of a plot line that was done better seasons ago. I wish the writers would take Kevin's advice and get over themselves. They can do much better.

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You know what? You nailed it. This is exactly what's been bugging me about this whole storyline. Yes, they probably should have dealt with that in earlier seasons. Sam moved forward, Dean backward and yes, it doesn't really make sense. I haven't really minded the conflict that much (so far), because I keep hoping they will resolve this in a meaningful way and actually deal with their issues. Sigh. A girl can hope, right?
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The distance between the brothers is certainly not much fun, but I think at this point, really necessary. There's a truckload of crap between them that they never dealt with. This time, they're taking it seriously...they've been co-dependant on each other for a long time and f**k all else - that's not really healthy, for either of them.

I realize that the brothers have many "issues", but if they resolved all of them and were just two healthy, well-adjusted brothers I don't think they'd still be the Winchesters. They also wouldn't be nearly as interesting to watch every week :)

I'm all for these two dealing with some of their deeper conflicts, but slamming doors and refusing to talk is not solving anything. It's how adolescent girls fight, Sam, not two adults who are really trying to resolve a problem. I'd feel better if they just had a huge fight -- punches flying, or whatever, and got this over with. Dragging it out like this is agonizing. Can't Sam forgive without necessarily understanding all they why's? He must know that Dean wasn't trying to hurt him, right? All they're doing now is piling more hurt on top of what is already there, and that seems counterproductive to me.
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I doubt they'll ever be what anyone would call "well adjusted", and how they're dealing with it is a point in case - sulking in their rooms - very mature, I totally agree with you there and also that it's agonizing to watch. But I also think that we're at a crucial point in their relationship that will also define them in the future - it needs time.

Both of them crossed lines, not just now, but before and even though they said they forgave the other, some bitterness remained and they didn't really deal with it. A fight won't solve anything, if anything, it will rip them apart even more. They are at a point where they can't just deal with it as always - Dean repressing, Sam running away - it's too fundamental for that. Of course Dean wasn't trying to hurt Sam, same as Sam wasn't trying to hurt Dean, but they hurt each other anyway - that's the whole point. Dean forgave Sam before without really understanding all the whys, same with Sam, that's not gonna cut it anymore.

That's my opinion at least. We'll have to wait and see what TPTB will do with this. I'm also joining you in the hope that they won't drag it out that much longer, because even my patience and hope for an emotionally satisfying resolution will run out somtime soon.
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I’m probably going to catch a lot of flack for this, but I never thought Kevin was that interesting as a character, so I wasn't that sorry to see him go. He whined and complained too much for my taste, and since he has already translated the Angel tablet into Elamite (i.e. doodles) the Winchesters technically have little use for him. I felt bad that he died the way he did, but he was no longer important to the story line. I was also hoping that he would do more to let Dean off the hook – “I know you feel guilty, but I forgive you” or something like that. The best he could say the brothers was “get over it” and Sam doesn’t even seem ready to do that.

I also don’t think the Kevin story line is done, because it probably won’t take long for him to become a dark/vengeful spirit. Bobby didn’t last that long, and Bobby’s strength of character is much greater than Kevin’s. I suspect he’ll make a few more cameo appearances before he’s done.
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1. That was worst, most misleading promo since "the girl next door."

2. Love = the fact these two are still at odds. At first it was, okay, here's the obligatory fight/separate/kiss and make up episode, but we're well past that, and I got chills when Sam walked away from Dean at the end. And Dean just goes and blast his feelings/thoughs out of his head with some big-ass headphones.

3. Not so much love = okay, so if my cat scratches me, I totes have a mark for, like, YEARS. But not the Amazing Self-Healing Marvels that are the Winchesters. That pesky knife slice to the throat? Gone by morning!

Overall, better than the season average, in my opinion.
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hey guyz
now that CAS supposedly has 'his grace back', does he also have his wings and Seraphim powers too?

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All the angels that fell have lost their wings.
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Gadreel still had his wings. They were battered and frayed, but he still had them.
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Gadreel still had his wings. They were battered and frayed, but he still had them.

Excellent point. Maybe some of the angels lost their wings, but some didn't. When Bartholomew and the other recently-killed angels died, you didn't see the shadow of their wings on the ground, including when the biker angels were killed by the glee club-angels. BUT, when Castiel "appeared" to Dean in the library after Kevin died, he didn't come in through the door. He just seemed to suddenly be there, but I didn't hear the flutter of angel wings.
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I liked the episode the only thing i wanted and didn't get was more friction between the brothers. I was happy it wasn't a lighthearted episode as the promo suggested.
At the end when Kevin tells them to get over it i was prepared to be so angry if they had a heart to heart and solved everything. Granted if someone could help it would be Kevin who was the ultimate victim of the whole thing but it's apparent that their problems are so deep at this point. It would feel really disingenuous if they could just swap this under the rag with the rest of it.

I'm really happy they are handling this as a serious grievance that, like normal people, they don't just get over. I hope they handle this right because it seems we were at a similar point before but it never really gets dealt with but the last scene gave me hope.

Kevin wise, i love Kevin, but i wouldn't like a ghost Kevin storyline, i thought though that was the last we saw of him, at least until the end.
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Firstly I was just grateful to see (at least for me) anything watchable. Normal service has been resumed now that Olympics are finally over. Ok! I am a fan so even if this might be a so-so episode I grabbed it was both hands and I was thankful. It was good to see all the crew on board even if only by indirect reference (Crowley). It made sense that Kevin might be bound to an object and also stuck in the veil because "Yes" heaven is closed for business. Uncountable numbers of good people stuck in transit so to speak.

I had a thought about this. If Bobby could return and clearly Kevin can and both can develop abilities like telekinesis though non-corporeal and Kevin is gifted as a prophet the Winchesters could have a brand new ally. Think untold numbers of good spirits jammed up in the Veil. Kevin could teach them how to return to the earthly plain and kick some demon and angel butt! Is this a thought?!

Bartholomew dead - excellent! Nasty piece of work! Cas gets a following - good!

Mrs. Tran saved - excellent! Like her or not (i have grown to like her) one more ally free to kick ass is a good thing. Right!

Winchesters don't listen to good advise from Kevin! Surprise! Surprise! Winchester brothers still fighting each other - BOO!
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Interesting thought about Kevin forming a ghost "army." But I don't think ghosts are any match for demons, and certainly not angels.
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Just a thought. Bobby did a fair job against the head Leviathan when he was driven. And perhaps shear weight of numbers might lead to pooled group power... Not a Storm more like a hurricane!
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As soon as I saw the angels appear before Cas and take his side, my first thought was "oh good... more red shirts." Can you name ANY angel besides Metatron, Gadreel, and Cas who haven't died yet?
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I just realised that the whole story line is like Babylon 5. The Shadows are the Demons. The Angels are the Vorlons and the humans are the poor suckers in the middle being manipulated by both Demons and Angels for their own ends. There seems to be no clear evidence that the Angels after God left really were protecting humans in the best sense of the world. Lets have Kevin and the Winchesters be the Crew of Babylon 5 and with various allies take both side down... and let humans make their own mistakes.
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Can you name ANY angel besides Metatron, Gadreel, and Cas who haven't died yet?

Technically, Castiel has died a few times. He just keeps getting brought back:) I can think of a few angels who haven't died -- like Joshua the gardener. Michael is not technically dead -- he's just in the cage with Lucifer. I don't think Malachi the anarchist is dead -- is he? There's also Virgil the hit man from season 6: The French Mistake. I'm sure we can think of some others if we dig deep enough...
However, you are correct that there seem to be a lot of angel red shirts :)
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So what exactly happened to the third hostage? Because we've got Candy and Kevin's Mum, but there were three cages and Candy mentioned two people... yet... no mention of the third person at all during the prison break.
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I was wondering that myself. Thought I missed something. :)
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good point! bet that's a breadcrumb. At least I hope it is. Continuity people! Please!
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This episode was MUCH better than the previous one, and I was SO glad to see Mrs. Tran finally rescued... She's been on the list of un-rescued characters (with Adam, doh) for far too long! It was a little sad to find out that poor Kevin couldn't rest in peace reliving his greatest hits in Heaven, but at least now we know Heaven's locked to the humans too-- maybe that will provide added incentive for the brothers to seriously get to work on the angel issue.

I was greatly encouraged to FINALLY see a member of Team Free Will acquire some followers which could be the beginnings of an army-- something I've long suspected would be necessary in order to deal with all the badness unleashed on the Earth in this season. I was just surprised that that leader turned out to be Castiel, rather than Dean or Sam. Unfortunately, it seems the brothers are still struggling with Dean's most recent big mistake instead of getting strategic about the future-- though, it was good to see Dean pick a less destructive path to stress relief (music instead of drinking, women, pie, or reckless driving.) Fortunately, the angst in this episode was balanced out by Castiel kicking some serious @$$ and looking good doing it! Even though it was somewhat predictable, I cheered when Bart finally got what he deserved. At this point, I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of Castiel's story, and hope the Winchester brothers will follow Kevin's advice, "get over it" and join back up with him soon! :)
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Not sure the angels would follow either Sam or Dean. Sam is Lucifer's one perfect vessel and a lot of them have blammed Dean for what happened to Cas.
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To clarify-- I figured SOMEBODY in TFW would have to put together an army this season, and probably sooner rather than later, to fight the various epic-level threats that have cropped up. My expectation was that it would be Dean and/or Sam organizing/recruiting their own army of Hunters, Men of Letters, and/or maybe some friendly monsters, etc. to help them deal with everything (angel factions, demons, Metatron and Gadreel, Crowley, Abaddon, etc. etc. etc.) I DIDN'T expect it to be Castiel that would attract followers (or that he would attract them ahead of the brothers settling their differences and putting "build an army" on the agenda.) It's actually a very nice surprise that angels still exist who want to follow Cas and not kill him, after what he did in Heaven before.
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Wow Kevin still gets the short end of the stick EVEN IN THE AFTERLIFE. This was a meh episode though it was nice knowing that Ms. Tran was alive. I do think that her grieving was a little bit rushed since Kevin deserved so much better in life than what he got.
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I am hoping they wrap up the whole Angel storyline this season. It has been going on too long. As if every demon and hell spawn ever written about wasn't enough to drawn on for stories. I miss the days of the Winchesters driving to the next town with monster issues. Sure the season had an overall story to follow, but now they are so complicated that it never seems to be fully finished when the season is over.
Except for the Castiel story arc, this episode felt a little more like the show use to be.
I really loved Kev telling them to just get over it. He was clearly speaking for the fans.
And knowing Kevin is a spirit outside the Veil means he may get at least one or two more appearances in before he finally goes to the great beyond. Hopefully not because he goes bad. Just because he needs to tell the guys something he learned.
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Kevin's a prophet I hope he stays good!
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True, Kevin is a prophet, but he is nowhere near as emotionally strong or courageous as Bobby, so if Bobby eventually went vengeful I have no hope that Kevin will last very long -- even with his mother constantly by his side.
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From everything we've been told there has never been a spirit who hasn't turn so the odds aren't great for Kevin.
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Agreed, I've been saying all along I missed the old days with just hunting, this whole heaven/hell/angels/demons crap has been beaten to death over the course of waaaaay too many seasons, but that's usually when one of the wiser (heh) fans tells me that's dead and done, get over it.
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I agree, I thought the angel part added would be great, but it's just sputtered over the last few seasons. Aside from watching Castiel's growth/arc (if it is still an arc, I hope so) the "angels are dicks" has been played out for SOOOOO long now. We need a new angle, not another angel.
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The SPN haters are out in full force.
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I hate the Trans. They are so boring.
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Agree and yet they keep bringing them back.
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Damn. I really thought Kevin was saved from an EVEN MORE HORRIBLE fate due to prompt burning, I was like, "good job, Dean. A+ remembering hunter etiquette 101", but nope. Still extremely fucked. Kevin does not deserve to be driven into derangement and monstrosity in the hereafter. I take back all my "the Winchesters should have friends and allies" moaning I've been doing for the past five seasons or so. No they don't. They are good guys, but they aren't self-less. Everyone deserves their moments of self-centeredness and insularity (ok, no they don't. The Winchester Insularity is creepy corner level deathcon 5), but their bi-annual secret keeping and break-up/sorta make-up sessions usually cause terrible consequences for themselves and fatal ones for everyone else.

That being said I appreciate the brief return of Mrs. Tran. Her grief over her son and her determination to care for him even in his death added some weight to this hollow (to me) storyline. Made me actually want to see Crowley beat down next time he pops up. I haven't felt like Crowley needed to be wiped out in a very long time. He's been so defanged.

Pissy Teen Spirit Demon made me LOL.

Dean better not make a quip about having saved Sam from limbo with his Rapey Angel Shennigans. I can't with this wino. Go to AA already you self-pitying lush!

Why is Metatron on Earth at all? Can't he just angel radio his commands? Or is he locked out of heaven too. Did Dad come home and go, "fuck all my creations! Worst. ideas.ever." and lock up the joint.

How are angels just popping up out of nowhere? I thought they were all wingless now. Ugh. Jesus!Cas. Ugh. Or is this the precursor to Stoner!Swinger!Cas?
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