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Death, Death's Scythe and Crowley

  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [1]Sep 1, 2010
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    So I was watching the season 4 episode "Death Takes a Holiday" last night and I noticed somthing interesting. This morning I started looking around on here and saw that Libra113 had already brought it up once but I thought I'd give the topic its own thread since I was surprised it didn't interest more people when it was first mentioned. Basically I'm wondering if anyone else took stock of the fact that the scythe Alistair used to kill one of the reapers in DTAH was the same one Crowley gave to Dean so that he could attempt to kill Death in "Two Minutes to Midnight".


    In TMTM Death thanks Dean for returning his Scythe and then claims he is being forced to do Lucifer's bidding. He then notes that he wants Dean to put Lucifer back in his cage so he can be free again and it got me thinking about how likely Death's story really was. If Death thanked Dean for returning his Scythe it makes one assume Death had the scythe stolen from him previous to that episode. Yet, in DTAH Alistair claims that Death was the one who gave him the Scythe in the first place so he (Alistair) could kill the reapers and break another seal and help set Lucifer free.


    Dean: You're going to kill a reaper with that? Little on the nose don't you think?


    Alistair: ...You think so? I got it from an old friend. You know he doesn't really ride a pale horse? But he does have three amigos and they're just jonsing for an apocalypse! It pays to have friends in low places don't you think?


    Now, earlier in the episode (DTAH) when Alistair confronts the brothers in the cemetary he claims he wants to make things quick becayse he has a date with death. Now at first reflection one would have assumed he was talking about meeting one of the reapers, but what if he was actually refering to Death itself? What if Alistair somehow had access to Death before it was released by Lucifer?


    Upon relfection I can think ofthree things this might mean:


    1- Death was partially lying to Dean when he said he was being controlled by Lucifer and was actually working a bigger game plan when he told Dean how to trap Lucifer.


    2- That Alistair was lying (which is certainly something we would expect from a demon, although I can`t think of a logical reason as to why he would in the first place) and the demons were somehow able to steal it from Death. The demons I`m refering to would of course be actually just one demon- Crowley. This would mean that Crowley was encouraging the release of Lucifer before he considered that Lucifer would actually want all of the demons dead.


    3-Crowley indeed gave it to Alistair because Crowley is, as some of you have already speculated, actually Death.


    Peronally I think a combination of the first and third theories are the most likely. As a few of you also noted, the similarities between Crowley and Death in TMTM were a little to coincidental, however subtle they might have been (e.g- the english accent, both liking pizza, etc) not to mention the way Crowley miscalculated Death`s position and then randomly found it was a little too random. Secondly, if Alistair was lying, and he did get the Scythe from Crowley, that would mean Crowley would have had to steal it from Death at some point which I have a hard time imagining happening to a being that claims it could reap God.


    My only problem with that theory is it would mean that Death would have had to already be free before Lucifer raised it. I have a few ideas as to how that problem might be overcome but they all seem a little weak so I thought I might as well share all of the above with everyone and see if anyone had an ideas of thoughts on the matter.

    Edited on 09/01/2010 10:56am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [2]Sep 1, 2010
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    Well, I don't recall my original post but considering both episodes together I can only conclude that whatever it was that allowed Lucifer and his minions to control Death (I seem to recall it being some kind of spell) must have been in effect at that point and they forced Death to give them his weapon and he probably didn't like it and wanted it back since then.

    How it got from Alistair to Crowley on the other hand (espcially with Alistair captured) is anyone's guess unless it was kind of lost in the shuffle and Crowley swooped in to claim it or maybe someone brought it to him to try and cut a deal without selling their soul.
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    presario111

    [3]Oct 9, 2010
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    wut im wondering is if that is the scyth of death why didnt death just let dean keep it and use it to kill llucifer(if it can kill death it most certanly can kill lucifer) i mean i dont think lucy would have seen it coming

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    LordSothe

    [4]Oct 9, 2010
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    He probably figured the rings had a better chance of working. Even if the scythe could kill Lucifer, there'd still be the issue of them nailing him with it. And of course, if they failed, then they'd have just handed Lucifer the only (known) weapon capable of killing Death, which I'm sure he wanted to avoid at all costs.


    Plus, Death views Sam and Dean as insignificant. There's no reason why if someone were to chop off Lucifer's head it would need to be one of them -If he was going to try that, he'd probably do it himself, or at least entrust it to someone more powerful. With the rings, however, only Sam could do it, because he was Lucifer's vessel.

    Edited on 10/09/2010 1:09pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [5]Oct 9, 2010
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    Or it could be that Death sees things as happening 'when it's time' and it wasn't Lucifer's time to die so he just wanted him back in the cage.

    That or seemed fitting to him to have Lucifer caged in Hell and didn't want to let him off as easily as letting him die.
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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [6]Oct 12, 2010
    • member since: 05/02/08
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    libra113 wrote:
    How it got from Alistair to Crowley on the other hand (espcially with Alistair captured) is anyone's guess unless it was kind of lost in the shuffle and Crowley swooped in to claim it or maybe someone brought it to him to try and cut a deal without selling their soul.



    (Possible Spoilers Ahead)


    Huh...lol. After reading that and watching last weeks episode I guess it simply could have been taken from Heaven's armory couldn't it? When Cas saw that Crowley had it in TMTM he seemed genuinely surprised and a little concerned. Obviously a demon having a weapon that powerful would be worrying but I almost wonder now if Cas was under the impression that Heaven was supposed to have it. If we look back to DTAH, when Alistair was originally captured, we don't see if he still has the scythe on him although he could have just tucked it into the back of his pants or something...


    Either way that would mean that Crowley and Balthazar also have some kind of a relationship. Doesn't mean that Crowley isn't Death, but it would mean that he might have simply gotten it back from Balthazar by making some kind of a deal. After all, wasn't Cas under the impression Balthazar had died in the apocalypse fighting a year before? Balthezar claimed that he simply faked his death but what if he actually made a deal with Death to get him back his scythe if Death spared his life? Maybe Balthazar collecting souls is simply a way for him to extend his time here before Death finally comes for him.


    On top of that, I would assume Crowley/Death pretending that he had lost scythe after getting it back, presumably from Balthazar, was simply a subtle form of misdirection.


    That or I'm completely off my rocker. Guess we'll find out soon enough

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [7]Oct 12, 2010
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    Really can't see Crowley and Death being the same entity as they seem to have totally diffrent desires and motives.

    As for the backstory on the Death's scythe, the explination is probably much more simple than we're all making it.

    Not sure how it got from Death to Alistair to break the seal (unless it was taken by a demon from him when he was imprisioned prior to the ritual Lucifer carried out to release him on Earth) but from Alistair to Crowley it was likely picked up after "Death Takes A Holiday" and passed along to someone who cut a deal with Crowley for something and he got it that way, or maybe HE did some wheeling and dealing of his own to get it so he could pass it on to Dean.
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