Deep Freeze for Lisa?

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    libra113

    [81]Jul 21, 2010
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    I think I found our point of divergance. I haven't seen the ending in awhile but my impression was that from Dean's point of view he was out of hunting forever.

    In fact from what I've read about the plans for the new season Dean has settled down permently thinking that Sam is gone forever and only get back into hunting becasue he shows up and begs him to help.

    As for the whole Lisa/Ben thing, sure you COULD say that by having Dean around he's protected from supernatral evil but it's much more close to say that having Dean around makes him much more a target.

    It's likely that, even in their world, that being attacked by some supernatural force is a rare thing (otherwise more people would know about such things) and the odds of being attacked once (much less twice like that) are VERY slim unless you hanging around with Sam or Dean.


    Dean couldn't live knowing Sam is endlessly being totured in hell he eventually go insane or commit suicide so in his mind he was probably
    brainstorming a way Sam could come back
    I haven't watched it in awhile but I THOUGHT he promised Sam he wouldn't risk it and Chuck's narriation said he would keep that promise. The overall impression I got was that Dean didn't like it but was in a situation where had no choice but accept it.

    In any case, from a purely fictional, writer's point of view, the ebb and flow of the story demands that Lisa die to spurn Dean on. Vengence the fuel that drives all the hunters we've ever seen and he's gonna need someone or something to avenge.
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    libra113

    [82]Jul 21, 2010
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    As for the whole Lisa/Ben thing, sure you COULD say that by having Dean around he's protected from supernatral evil but it's much more close to say that having Dean around makes him much more a target.



    But she doesn't know that much about him, does she? She knows she protected her and her son from the monsters, but she couldn't know he had his role in the Apocalypse, or that his brother is in Hell, or that there might be some demons or angels hunting him.

    I guess all she knows is that he is skilled, and capable of protecting, so her choice in that part is logical.

    I agree with you, everything else is not so logical.

    As for her kid being like Dean's, I dunno about tastes being genetic or not. If they were not, then it was just a coincidence put for some humour or something. And I think it was clarified he was not his son.
    Well, know she doesn't know the details but he HAS told her some about his life and it wouldn't take a genius to figure out that a guy who spent his whole life doing what Dean has done would have enemies and even if he didn't supernatural stuff seems to be drawn to him (much like on "Doctor Who" the Doctor can't go ANYWHERE without something bad happening). Again, it's a trade off: having Dean around means Ben has a protector but it also means he's in greater need of being protected.

    You would be suprised how many people have convinced theselves that she was lying and Ben REALLY is his kid.

    All I gotta say is if all that IS gentic then my dad isn't REALLY my dad becasue other than similar eye and hair color we have no common tastes or intrests at all.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [83]Jul 21, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    I think I found our point of divergance. I haven't seen the ending in awhile but my impression was that from Dean's point of view he was out of hunting forever. In fact from what I've read about the plans for the new season Dean has settled down permently thinking that Sam is gone forever and only get back into hunting becasue he shows up and begs him to help. As for the whole Lisa/Ben thing, sure you COULD say that by having Dean around he's protected from supernatral evil but it's much more close to say that having Dean around makes him much more a target. It's likely that, even in their world, that being attacked by some supernatural force is a rare thing (otherwise more people would know about such things) and the odds of being attacked once (much less twice like that) are VERY slim unless you hanging around with Sam or Dean.
    Dean couldn't live knowing Sam is endlessly being totured in hell he eventually go insane or commit suicide so in his mind he was probably brainstorming a way Sam could come back
    I haven't watched it in awhile but I THOUGHT he promised Sam he wouldn't risk it and Chuck's narriation said he would keep that promise. The overall impression I got was that Dean didn't like it but was in a situation where had no choice but accept it. In any case, from a purely fictional, writer's point of view, the ebb and flow of the story demands that Lisa die to spurn Dean on. Vengence the fuel that drives all the hunters we've ever seen and he's gonna need someone or something to avenge.


    Well the season 6 theme does not apply that Lisa or ben are in danger just conflict and angst how it's hard for Dean to goback to hunting when he has people he carea about(Ben and Lisa) so that's dead on hint that Dean is going to be struggling while hunting because he misses Ben and Lisa

    Edited on 07/21/2010 3:08pm
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    libra113

    [84]Jul 21, 2010
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    Well, I HOPE that doesn't go on for more than a couple of episodes becasue it will get old fast.

    I would rather see Dean out for blood and revenge than all mopey an conflicted. Sure they're gonna have him and Sam switch roles but that's too far.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [85]Jul 21, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, I HOPE that doesn't go on for more than a couple of episodes becasue it will get old fast. I would rather see Dean out for blood and revenge than all mopey an conflicted. Sure they're gonna have him and Sam switch roles but that's too far.



    Well you better take that up with the writers because I hate to break it to you but that is the major theme for season six and btw killing off every female recurring character got old fast too

    Edited on 07/21/2010 8:50pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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    libra113

    [86]Jul 23, 2010
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    Well, I HOPE that doesn't go on for more than a couple of episodes becasue it will get old fast. I would rather see Dean out for blood and revenge than all mopey an conflicted. Sure they're gonna have him and Sam switch roles but that's too far.



    Well you better take that up with the writers because I hate to break it to you but that is the major theme for season six and btw killing off every female recurring character got old fast too

    Maybe, but there's such a thing as nature of the best. Sometimes story structure and real life factors force a writer to do things a certain way. There are rules to writing and, contrary to what outsiders may think a writer can't just do whatever they want otherwise there wouldn't be any order or logic to the process and there wouldn't have to classess to treach the subject.
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    dpebbleson

    [87]Jul 24, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:


    All I gotta say is if all that IS gentic then my dad isn't REALLY my dad becasue other than similar eye and hair color we have no common tastes or intrests at all.


    Maybe you're more like your mother in those things

    libra113 wrote:


    Maybe, but there's such a thing as nature of the best. Sometimes story structure and real life factors force a writer to do things a certain way. There are rules to writing and, contrary to what outsiders may think a writer can't just do whatever they want otherwise there wouldn't be any order or logic to the process and there wouldn't have to classess to treach the subject.



    But what some of us are trying to suggest here is that not changing the style is bad for the show. Not killing Lisa wouldn't mean a drastic change. You'd still have two brothers in the car, chasing demons and other forces, you'd still have some larger-than-life schemes. Only character's motivation would be different, and that's good. After five years there's got to be some sort of change.
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    libra113

    [88]Jul 24, 2010
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    Not really, when my mother was alive are taste in music were closer but still not that close. The stuff they were having Ben and Dean have in common are attitudes that are environmental and have to be taught. The only way he would be like that would be if Dean raised him (or perhaps his real father, perhaps if the did a retacon to say that Lisa tried to make a go with his real father and it failed so they split up, she moved away and pretended it never happened).

    That's all well and good but a whole season of Dean mopping about missing Lisa and Ben isn't going to be as good as a whole season of him wanting something's blood for killing them. Revenge is hunter fuel and Dean needs a refill. For years he ran on revenge for his mom, he got that but then had to continue out of guilt for letting the demons loose and becasuse he only had a year to live. Then he was sort of forced to continue by the situation. Now he needs a strong motivation and vengence is the default position.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [89]Jul 24, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    Not really, when my mother was alive are taste in music were closer but still not that close. The stuff they were having Ben and Dean have in common are attitudes that are environmental and have to be taught. The only way he would be like that would be if Dean raised him (or perhaps his real father, perhaps if the did a retacon to say that Lisa tried to make a go with his real father and it failed so they split up, she moved away and pretended it never happened).

    That's all well and good but a whole season of Dean mopping about missing Lisa and Ben isn't going to be as good as a whole season of him wanting something's blood for killing them. Revenge is hunter fuel and Dean needs a refill. For years he ran on revenge for his mom, he got that but then had to continue out of guilt for letting the demons loose and becasuse he only had a year to live. Then he was sort of forced to continue by the situation. Now he needs a strong motivation and vengence is the default position.


    Dean needs go back to hunting because he wants to not because guilt of Lisa dying or else he'll never be happy with hunting again
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    Demonicka

    [90]Jul 24, 2010
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:


    libra113 wrote:
    Well, I HOPE that doesn't go on for more than a couple of episodes becasue it will get old fast. I would rather see Dean out for blood and revenge than all mopey an conflicted. Sure they're gonna have him and Sam switch roles but that's too far.



    Well you better take that up with the writers because I hate to break it to you but that is the major theme for season six and btw killing off every female recurring character got old fast too




    If that is going to be a major theme for season six, than I was right in my review... there is no more "Supernatural", it is going to be something like Desperate Housewives...

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    libra113

    [92]Jul 24, 2010
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Not really, when my mother was alive are taste in music were closer but still not that close. The stuff they were having Ben and Dean have in common are attitudes that are environmental and have to be taught. The only way he would be like that would be if Dean raised him (or perhaps his real father, perhaps if the did a retacon to say that Lisa tried to make a go with his real father and it failed so they split up, she moved away and pretended it never happened).

    That's all well and good but a whole season of Dean mopping about missing Lisa and Ben isn't going to be as good as a whole season of him wanting something's blood for killing them. Revenge is hunter fuel and Dean needs a refill. For years he ran on revenge for his mom, he got that but then had to continue out of guilt for letting the demons loose and becasuse he only had a year to live. Then he was sort of forced to continue by the situation. Now he needs a strong motivation and vengence is the default position.


    Dean needs go back to hunting because he wants to not because guilt of Lisa dying or else he'll never be happy with hunting again
    Well, I don't know he ever would want to on his own nor, I suspect, will ever be happy doing it. Of course looking back it looks more and more like his love of the job was an act and he really never wanted to do it in the first place he was just too much the good son to do anything about it.
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    libra113

    [93]Jul 24, 2010
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    Demonicka wrote:

    RachelleMcAdams wrote:


    libra113 wrote:
    Well, I HOPE that doesn't go on for more than a couple of episodes becasue it will get old fast. I would rather see Dean out for blood and revenge than all mopey an conflicted. Sure they're gonna have him and Sam switch roles but that's too far.



    Well you better take that up with the writers because I hate to break it to you but that is the major theme for season six and btw killing off every female recurring character got old fast too




    If that is going to be a major theme for season six, than I was right in my review... there is no more "Supernatural", it is going to be something like Desperate Housewives...

    Ahmen. If it's not broken (which it's NOT) don't fix it. There's no need to reinvent the wheel, they KNOW what we watch for just give it to us and save the namby pamby, realationship whining for "Smallville", they need that stuff to fill the cracks in their scripts.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [94]Jul 24, 2010
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    Jensen said in a interview that there wouldn't be any permanent love interests on the show so all of this whining about supernatural turning in to desperate housewives or one tree hill is ridiculous Sera Gamble has been helping Kripke run the show since day one so I think she knows what she doing and besides season six hasn't even started yet and it's stupid how wealready got people making silly assumptions and nitpicking the direction of the show

    Edited on 07/25/2010 2:56pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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    dpebbleson

    [95]Jul 25, 2010
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    @ RachelleMcAdams: I'm 100% with you!


    @ Libra: Yeah, it's not broken, but there is no reason not upgrade it. And change it. S1 was mostly monster of the week oriented, and was about searching for John. Then it grew old, and they killed him in S2 opener, so S2 was about revenge. The producers got that revenge would get old very soon, so they did with it in S2 finale, making the entire S3 a season about saving Dean's soul; season 4 introduced angels (a major change) and it was partially about Sam losing his soul to the demons; but even that grew old, so they had them sort out their problems in S5, and they won against both sides because they settled their problems. They learned to respect each other, unlike Michael and Lucifer. So I don't agree they have to kill Lisa to get Dean into hunting.


    These motivations change from season to season, and each has added something new.


    Vengeance is the default position, but also the cliched one. Remember those martial arts films where the good guy fights the bad guy, and the bad guy prevails for the most of the fight - but then he hits the good guy in the head, and he has the recollection of all his life, friends and family, and somehow in the last moment finds the strength to defeat the bad guy? (Actually that's exactly what they do with Sam in S5 finale). It's a cliche, appearing in hundreds of films. It's boring, and unimaginative.


    I'd expect from a show of SPN's caliber to be more imaginative and break conventions.

    Edited on 07/25/2010 12:53am
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    Demonicka

    [96]Jul 25, 2010
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    @dpebbleson:


    Yes, they should upgrade the series, but I still think they should get rid of Lisa (not necessary by killing her). She does not fit in SN at all. I understand that maybe writers want some more serious relationship for Dean but Lisa is the worst possible option. In my opinion someone like Bela would be far better choice.



    RachelleMcAdams wrote:


    libra113 wrote:
    Well, I HOPE that doesn't go on for more than a couple of episodes becasue it will get old fast. I would rather see Dean out for blood and revenge than all mopey an conflicted. Sure they're gonna have him and Sam switch roles but that's too far.



    Well you better take that up with the writers because I hate to break it to you but that is the major theme for season six and btw killing off every female recurring character got old fast too




    I would love to but I do not know how to conntact them


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    dpebbleson

    [97]Jul 25, 2010
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    Demonicka wrote:

    @dpebbleson:


    Yes, they should upgrade the series, but I still think they should get rid of Lisa (not necessary by killing her). She does not fit in SN at all. I understand that maybe writers want some more serious relationship for Dean but Lisa is the worst possible option. In my opinion someone like Bela would be far better choice.



    RachelleMcAdams wrote:


    libra113 wrote:
    Well, I HOPE that doesn't go on for more than a couple of episodes becasue it will get old fast. I would rather see Dean out for blood and revenge than all mopey an conflicted. Sure they're gonna have him and Sam switch roles but that's too far.



    Well you better take that up with the writers because I hate to break it to you but that is the major theme for season six and btw killing off every female recurring character got old fast too




    I would love to but I do not know how to conntact them




    Honestly, I don't like Lisa very much. And I don't think she has a future with Dean, at least while he is a hunter. I just wouldn't like them to kill her, because it'd be the most stereotypical thing.

    And I think I read somewhere that the show would still be about Dean, Sam and the Impala, and there isn't place for Lisa in the car Still, killing her is a cliche - and they killed too many good-looking women already

    I'm still angry about Bela being tossed out of the show.
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    libra113

    [98]Jul 25, 2010
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    Well, you blame that one on the fans who lived in fear that the playful hostility been her and Dean was foreplay.

    They kinda HAVE to kill Lisa off for two reasons: (1) It's immutible law of "Supernatural" physics that Sam and Dean have to be on the road, always traveling from town to town alone. (2) It's also immutible law of "Supernatural" physics that they can never settle down and live normal lives. Sam tried it, failed and learned that lesson and now Dean has to learn the same.

    They can't just go their seperate ways becasue there will never be a time when they will 'work out' and just letting her live and forgetting her would be a huge loose end with no point.

    Either kill her or, as I said, fake her death with only Cas and Dean knowing the truth THEN let her go. Either that or have Cas erase their memories of each other and send her on her way. The latter won't protect her from Dean's enemies however...
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    dpebbleson

    [99]Aug 3, 2010
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    To resolve the discussion with a quote from this place:


    If you're expecting Lisa to die a fiery death in the season premiere as a throwback to the pilot, think again. "Lisa will be recurring in the first half of the season," Sera confirms. "She's not just a one-off thing."


    I don't particularly like Lisa, but I like the fact that they are not going for cliche and repetition.

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    libra113

    [100]Aug 3, 2010
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    dpebbleson wrote:

    To resolve the discussion with a quote from this place:


    If you're expecting Lisa to die a fiery death in the season premiere as a throwback to the pilot, think again. "Lisa will be recurring in the first half of the season," Sera confirms. "She's not just a one-off thing."


    I don't particularly like Lisa, but I like the fact that they are not going for cliche and repetition.

    So much for dramtic symatry or any kind of recurring theme. Who needs the rules of classical writing as long as you please the massess.
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