Supernatural Forums

Tuesday 9:00 PM on The CWIn Season

Do you think the character of Ruby brought a gray shade to demons?

Do you think the character of Ruby brought a gray shade to demons?

  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [21]Dec 28, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    We know sex isn't love but as dpebbleson been saying if Ruby had solely been using Sam with no real feelings then why didn't she cackle evil when he found out she mislead and betrayed him? She instead comforted him over his guilt and tried to get him to believe what he did was a noble act now if she had been pure evil she would made him feel guilty what he did and mocked him so that is the point me and dpebbleson trying to get across was that her reaction when Sam found our she betrayed wasn't evil and like a typical demon that Brady was

    Evil doesn't equal stupid. Which tact would keep Sam in line and make him more open to even the chance of accepting Lucifer as a part of his life: being all openly evil and making him feel bad or trying to play it as a good thing and making him feel safe?

    In any case he clearly wasn't buying it and the fact that Ruby THOUGHT it would shows that she not only didn't love him she didn't even know him that well beyound the surface.


    She look pretty suprised when Sam helped kill her so she obviously thought they had something beyond the surface
    OR she thought she had him under control. There is your grey area. You see it one way, I see it the other. That's about as far as the grey area goes.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of jkpop_07

    jkpop_07

    [22]Dec 28, 2010
    • member since: 05/25/08
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 160

    Ruby was never a grey area character. She was exactly what she seemed on the surface; manupulative, self server, a puppet(hmm those last two condradict themselves don't they) EmbarassedWell you get the idea.


    As for the argument of whether Ruby loved Sam I never once got the impression that everything she was doing was out of love for Sam.


    You know before this topic popped up I never thought Ruby was an interesting character and the least complex of the Supernatural universe but this topic has proved me wrong!

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [23]Dec 28, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    Well I think, thanks to shows like "Buffy" and "Angel" and movies like "Hellboy" some in the viewing audience were prepaired to accept the idea that a demon could be good so it left the writers open to play with that notion that creating a character who seemed to be just that but it turned out she was just manipulating Sam all along.

    I, personally, never bought it becasue "Supernatural" sticks pretty close to common mythology and in common mythology demons are creatures of pure evil. Demons are, in these myths, incapable of anything approching positive emotions and are only capable of anger, hate and evil so I always figured that she was up to no good.

    Still, she was very smart in being able to tell Sam exactly what he wanted to hear every step of the way and seduce and manipulate him along the path the demons wanted him to go down in the first place so she was no dummy but she was also (at least as far as I am concerned) NOT really in love with Sam. I would say at best she had designs of being his demon b itch consort or number one demon when Lucifer was inside him and she never missed a chance to twist and turn Sam's mind.

    To me the most horrible part was when she talked him into bleeding that nurse even though the demon wasn't active within her (it was still inside but not active), but the even worse part was that he LET her talk him into it and let's not kid ourselves she wasn't giving him options she was pushing him.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of RachelleMcAdams

    RachelleMcAdams

    [24]Dec 28, 2010
    • member since: 05/11/10
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 549
    jkpop_07 wrote:

    Ruby was never a grey area character. She was exactly what she seemed on the surface; manupulative, self server, a puppet(hmm those last two condradict themselves don't they) EmbarassedWell you get the idea.


    As for the argument of whether Ruby loved Sam I never once got the impression that everything she was doing was out of love for Sam.


    You know before this topic popped up I never thought Ruby was an interesting character and the least complex of the Supernatural universe but this topic has proved me wrong!



    I guess it's all about you interpret it, Genevieve Cortese saw it as Ruby being in love with Sam and what he could do so she played season 4 Ruby that way
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [25]Dec 29, 2010
    • member since: 11/06/09
    • level: 24
    • rank: Golden Girl
    • posts: 5,658
    Hahaha, this discussion makes it like RachelleMcAddams and myself are seeing things

    But I don't know how to explain this to you, really. Maybe Rachelle and me try to equate sex with love, but I think people here try to equate bad influence with lack of love. Yeah, she manipulated him, but, Libra, I think you watched 'Battlestar Galactica': remember Caprica 6, who did what she did to the Twelve Colonies by manipulating Baltar. Yeah, she was selfish, she was working only for the Cylons, but there was some twisted love in all that. She even saved his life during that initial blast. Now, BSG let us see how it developed. She explained him how special he was, to be chosen to do it, but she still loved him (that was proven later in the series). Same/similar with Ruby, only we didn't see what happened next, since she was killed. When Sam discovered he ended the world, Ruby reacted similarly like Caprica 6. She told him he was special, and not in a belittling or condescending way. To me it seemed like they were in that together. And I still attribute the fact that she was surprised he killed her to her believing he felt the same way like she did, that she led him to her team and that he would now be Lucifer's follower.

    And honestly, it's not like it's not a motif in literature and films that women can make men do even the most impossible things through their 'special influence'. Hers was a bad influence, as I said, and naturally so, because she was a demon and twisted, and her love was also twisted, but I still think there was some sort of love mixed with awe at being given a chance to participate in freeing Lucifer, and having sex with his meat-suit. If you want it so, I think part of her attraction could stem from her believing that by having sex with Sam she was in some indirect way having sex with Lucifer, and maybe why she loved Sam was because she loved that part of Lucifer in him she saw.

    Again, don't expect anything normal here. There are so many twisted relationships in human-human terms, let alone in fictional human-demon ones.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of RachelleMcAdams

    RachelleMcAdams

    [26]Dec 29, 2010
    • member since: 05/11/10
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 549
    Great post Dppebleson and that is very true her love for Sam was twisted
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [27]Dec 29, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    dpebbleson wrote:
    Hahaha, this discussion makes it like RachelleMcAddams and myself are seeing things

    But I don't know how to explain this to you, really. Maybe Rachelle and me try to equate sex with love, but I think people here try to equate bad influence with lack of love. Yeah, she manipulated him, but, Libra, I think you watched 'Battlestar Galactica': remember Caprica 6, who did what she did to the Twelve Colonies by manipulating Baltar. Yeah, she was selfish, she was working only for the Cylons, but there was some twisted love in all that. She even saved his life during that initial blast. Now, BSG let us see how it developed. She explained him how special he was, to be chosen to do it, but she still loved him (that was proven later in the series). Same/similar with Ruby, only we didn't see what happened next, since she was killed. When Sam discovered he ended the world, Ruby reacted similarly like Caprica 6. She told him he was special, and not in a belittling or condescending way. To me it seemed like they were in that together. And I still attribute the fact that she was surprised he killed her to her believing he felt the same way like she did, that she led him to her team and that he would now be Lucifer's follower.

    And honestly, it's not like it's not a motif in literature and films that women can make men do even the most impossible things through their 'special influence'. Hers was a bad influence, as I said, and naturally so, because she was a demon and twisted, and her love was also twisted, but I still think there was some sort of love mixed with awe at being given a chance to participate in freeing Lucifer, and having sex with his meat-suit. If you want it so, I think part of her attraction could stem from her believing that by having sex with Sam she was in some indirect way having sex with Lucifer, and maybe why she loved Sam was because she loved that part of Lucifer in him she saw.

    Again, don't expect anything normal here. There are so many twisted relationships in human-human terms, let alone in fictional human-demon ones.
    Well, no I didn't watch "Battlestar Galatica" and I TRIED to watch "Caprica" but lost the thread so quickly I didn't get to far along and now I hear something about it being cancelled or something.

    I guess you could say he was her way to Lucifer's side. Maybe she thought if she delivered Lucifer his vessel that she would be his consort or something but that's about as far as I can take it. Still, it wouldn't be the first so-called relationship based on purelly superfical reasons (she was into him because he Lucifer's vessel and a means to an end and he was into her because he needed external validation that neither Dean, Bobby nor Cas would give him).

    I don't honestly think thoes who see it as deeper are seeing things that aren't there per se so much as the writers wisely left it open so that everyone could see it the way they beleaved it to be. I don't really think it's invalid if you see something deeper, I just don't see it myself and that's not invalid either.

    It's like an ink blot, you see what your mind tells you to see. Nothing wrong with that.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of RachelleMcAdams

    RachelleMcAdams

    [28]Dec 29, 2010
    • member since: 05/11/10
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 549
    libra113 wrote:
    Well I think, thanks to shows like "Buffy" and "Angel" and movies like "Hellboy" some in the viewing audience were prepaired to accept the idea that a demon could be good so it left the writers open to play with that notion that creating a character who seemed to be just that but it turned out she was just manipulating Sam all along.

    I, personally, never bought it becasue "Supernatural" sticks pretty close to common mythology and in common mythology demons are creatures of pure evil. Demons are, in these myths, incapable of anything approching positive emotions and are only capable of anger, hate and evil so I always figured that she was up to no good.

    Still, she was very smart in being able to tell Sam exactly what he wanted to hear every step of the way and seduce and manipulate him along the path the demons wanted him to go down in the first place so she was no dummy but she was also (at least as far as I am concerned) NOT really in love with Sam. I would say at best she had designs of being his demon b itch consort or number one demon when Lucifer was inside him and she never missed a chance to twist and turn Sam's mind.


    To me the most horrible part was when she talked him into bleeding that nurse even though the demon wasn't active within her (it was still inside but not active), but the even worse part was that he LET her talk him into it and let's not kid ourselves she wasn't giving him options she was pushing him.


    Yes and it was even more disturbing that he was gullible enough to believe that this woman who didn't care about a innocent woman bleeding to death somehow cared about saving the world
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [29]Dec 29, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    That just goes to show how desperate he was for external validation and approval. He was willing to overlook her not caring about anyone because she made him feel he was doing right and that was all that mattered to him. Even funnier was he kept trying to change her but she was just humoring him to keep him happy.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of RachelleMcAdams

    RachelleMcAdams

    [30]Dec 29, 2010
    • member since: 05/11/10
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 549
    libra113 wrote:
    That just goes to show how desperate he was for external validation and approval. He was willing to overlook her not caring about anyone because she made him feel he was doing right and that was all that mattered to him. Even funnier was he kept trying to change her but she was just humoring him to keep him happy.


    Sam killed people while he was souless but he he killed people with Ruby when he had a soul so I hope he feels guilt for both because in season 5 he was too caught up in trying to save the world
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of basenji529

    basenji529

    [31]Dec 30, 2010
    • member since: 03/12/09
    • level: 15
    • rank: Ginsu Knife
    • posts: 1,935

    libra113 wrote:
    I guess you could say he was her way to Lucifer's side. Maybe she thought if she delivered Lucifer his vessel that she would be his consort or something but that's about as far as I can take it. Still, it wouldn't be the first so-called relationship based on purelly superfical reasons (she was into him because he Lucifer's vessel and a means to an end and he was into her because he needed external validation that neither Dean, Bobby nor Cas would give him). I don't honestly think thoes who see it as deeper are seeing things that aren't there per se so much as the writers wisely left it open so that everyone could see it the way they beleaved it to be. I don't really think it's invalid if you see something deeper, I just don't see it myself and that's not invalid either. It's like an ink blot, you see what your mind tells you to see. Nothing wrong with that.


    That sounds about right. The way I see it, angels try to help the collective at the expense of the individual (You may have noticed Supernatural's angels are far from benign.), and demons try to help the individual at the expense of the collective.


    Of course, if you see it, you're fine seeing that. If you don't, you're fine with that, too. As long as it's not something off the wall.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [32]Dec 30, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    That just goes to show how desperate he was for external validation and approval. He was willing to overlook her not caring about anyone because she made him feel he was doing right and that was all that mattered to him. Even funnier was he kept trying to change her but she was just humoring him to keep him happy.


    Sam killed people while he was souless but he he killed people with Ruby when he had a soul so I hope he feels guilt for both because in season 5 he was too caught up in trying to save the world
    The part that was the worse was the bit the nurse. Sam clearly didn't want to do it but Ruby pushed and pushed and talked him into it in the end.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of RachelleMcAdams

    RachelleMcAdams

    [33]Dec 30, 2010
    • member since: 05/11/10
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 549
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    That just goes to show how desperate he was for external validation and approval. He was willing to overlook her not caring about anyone because she made him feel he was doing right and that was all that mattered to him. Even funnier was he kept trying to change her but she was just humoring him to keep him happy.


    Sam killed people while he was souless but he he killed people with Ruby when he had a soul so I hope he feels guilt for both because in season 5 he was too caught up in trying to save the world
    The part that was the worse was the bit the nurse. Sam clearly didn't want to do it but Ruby pushed and pushed and talked him into it in the end.


    I think that is what seperates Sam and Dean is that Dean is more headstrong and doesn't listen to nobody
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [34]Dec 30, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    That just goes to show how desperate he was for external validation and approval. He was willing to overlook her not caring about anyone because she made him feel he was doing right and that was all that mattered to him. Even funnier was he kept trying to change her but she was just humoring him to keep him happy.


    Sam killed people while he was souless but he he killed people with Ruby when he had a soul so I hope he feels guilt for both because in season 5 he was too caught up in trying to save the world
    The part that was the worse was the bit the nurse. Sam clearly didn't want to do it but Ruby pushed and pushed and talked him into it in the end.


    I think that is what seperates Sam and Dean is that Dean is more headstrong and doesn't listen to nobody
    Yeah, I suspect Ruby would have been out of luck if she had to try that stuff with Dean as opposed to Sam becasue it was clear Sam started out against the idea of killing and bleeding the nurse but he ultimatly relented where as Dean would have, most likely, just dug in his heels and that would have been the end of it. As the angels learned it's very hard to force Dean to do anything, still he was about ready to give in and say yes but that was more desperation than anything else, then I guess you could say Sam was deperate too, guess they have diffrent levels of desperation before they break.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of RachelleMcAdams

    RachelleMcAdams

    [35]Dec 30, 2010
    • member since: 05/11/10
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 549

    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    That just goes to show how desperate he was for external validation and approval. He was willing to overlook her not caring about anyone because she made him feel he was doing right and that was all that mattered to him. Even funnier was he kept trying to change her but she was just humoring him to keep him happy.
    Sam killed people while he was souless but he he killed people with Ruby when he had a soul so I hope he feels guilt for both because in season 5 he was too caught up in trying to save the world
    The part that was the worse was the bit the nurse. Sam clearly didn't want to do it but Ruby pushed and pushed and talked him into it in the end.
    I think that is what seperates Sam and Dean is that Dean is more headstrong and doesn't listen to nobody
    Yeah, I suspect Ruby would have been out of luck if she had to try that stuff with Dean as opposed to Sam becasue it was clear Sam started out against the idea of killing and bleeding the nurse but he ultimatly relented where as Dean would have, most likely, just dug in his heels and that would have been the end of it. As the angels learned it's very hard to force Dean to do anything, still he was about ready to give in and say yes but that was more desperation than anything else, then I guess you could say Sam was deperate too, guess they have diffrent levels of desperation before they break.
    Not to mention Dean hates demon and has a reasonableinstinct not to trust them and he only worked with Meg and under Crowley to get Sam soul back I think being college educatedSamis more book smart and well in to his studies while Dean is more street smart and wordly intelligent and he is also reasonable and stubbornwhich don't make him gullible as Sam

    Edited on 12/30/2010 10:15pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [36]Dec 31, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    Yeah, I think perhaps Sam is more open to the POSSIBLITY of shades of grey and Dean is more tended toward seeing things black and white. That said they have also each flirted with the other way of seeing things in certain situaitons but they do tend to have thoes attitudes as their default reactions to situations.

    Dean first began working with Crowley in some way at the end of last season and that was becasue he didn't really have much choice and clearly even then he didn't trust the guy and was just waiting for the double cross.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of RachelleMcAdams

    RachelleMcAdams

    [37]Dec 31, 2010
    • member since: 05/11/10
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 549

    I read a interview with Genivieve Cortese and she said when Ruby says "I used to be human, and I still remember what it feels like." Maybe she was being manipulative, sure, but maybe there's also truth to it. Also she said Ruby was coming from a lonely desperate place and she couldn't goback to hell because they screwed her over and all she had was Sam so mutual feelings and mabye even love can be developed from that and really romantic love can have selfless aspects, but really, love is one of the most selfish things a person can do. As much as love is a feeling, it is also a choice and it's usually made for yourself

    Edited on 12/31/2010 7:36pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of jkpop_07

    jkpop_07

    [38]Jan 3, 2011
    • member since: 05/25/08
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 160
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    I read a interview with Genivieve Cortese and she said when Ruby says "I used to be human, and I still remember what it feels like." Maybe she was being manipulative, sure, but maybe there's also truth to it. Also she said Ruby was coming from a lonely desperate place and she couldn't goback to hell because they screwed her over and all she had was Sam so mutual feelings and mabye even love can be developed from that and really romantic love can have selfless aspects, but really, love is one of the most selfish things a person can do. As much as love is a feeling, it is also a choice and it's usually made for yourself



    Genivieve Cortese was also mixing business with pleasure. Didn't her and Jared marry last year? I think that she and the writers had differnt visions as to what Ruby as a character should have been. Season 3 Ruby and Season 4 Ruby feel like two differnt people due in large part to the actresses choices. I'm not saying that its bad for actors and actresses to fall for each other I just think the creative choices Genvivieve made for her character didn't always correspond with the writers and I think that's why I never liked that character.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [39]Jan 3, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    Probably right but it's also the director's job to reign an actor in when they're going in a weird direction or not deleavering what they need.

    Still, given "Supernatural" and it's tendency to keep the actors in the dark about what's REALLY going on at any given point who knows who knew what and when and maybe it was decided that letting her make the choices she made (even if they were wrong) helped keep the issue confused.

    I REALLY think their goal was to muddy the waters enough so that it's really open to interpitation and eveyone can see what they want to see.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of basenji529

    basenji529

    [40]Jan 4, 2011
    • member since: 03/12/09
    • level: 15
    • rank: Ginsu Knife
    • posts: 1,935

    Yeah, Supernatural, like Star Wars, tends to keep the cast in the dark. (James Earl Jones reportedly didn't know about Vader being Luke's father until the day they filmed the duel. Imagine how gross it was for Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher to learn their characters were brother and sister.) Unlike Star Wars, it's entirely possible that these aren't just ass pulls that are retcon'd as part of the creator's "original vision".

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.