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Do you think the character of Ruby brought a gray shade to demons?

Do you think the character of Ruby brought a gray shade to demons?

  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [61]Jan 7, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    basenji529 wrote:


    libra113 wrote:
    Must have since I keep seeing people insisting she MUST have REALLY loved Sam but I don't remember seeing any sign whatsoever of that. Must have or we were watching two diffrent shows all that time.


    Death of the Author. You should be familiar with it.


    Huh?


    He's referring to an essay by Roland Barthes, which is basically about two things. First, there's no truly original writing, as the writer is usually rearranging a lot of older material, using existing tropes, motifs, etc.


    The other thing, which I think basenji hinted at is that once the a work of literature is completed, it becomes independent of the author. In order for it to live, the author has to die, I think that's what he says, which can, again, be interpreted in two ways.


    Firstly, writer is as reader of his own book as any other reader, so whatever interpretation he offers is just one of many.


    The other thing is that author is usually the person who, sort-of, guarantees the meaning of a literary work, guarantees that there is some overarching theme or solution to the problem, so to say. If you "kill" author, you "kill" the need to go after that particular meaning, so plenty other meanings arise. You achieve some kind of democracy in reading, whether with always having an author in mind, it's a tyranny of one intended meaning.

    Okay, can't say I'm familuar with all that.

    I'm much more of an intuitive writer and not so much with the technical aspects, I just go with what feels right and do it that way.
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    dpebbleson

    [62]Jan 7, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    basenji529 wrote:


    libra113 wrote:
    Must have since I keep seeing people insisting she MUST have REALLY loved Sam but I don't remember seeing any sign whatsoever of that. Must have or we were watching two diffrent shows all that time.


    Death of the Author. You should be familiar with it.


    Huh?


    He's referring to an essay by Roland Barthes, which is basically about two things. First, there's no truly original writing, as the writer is usually rearranging a lot of older material, using existing tropes, motifs, etc.


    The other thing, which I think basenji hinted at is that once the a work of literature is completed, it becomes independent of the author. In order for it to live, the author has to die, I think that's what he says, which can, again, be interpreted in two ways.


    Firstly, writer is as reader of his own book as any other reader, so whatever interpretation he offers is just one of many.


    The other thing is that author is usually the person who, sort-of, guarantees the meaning of a literary work, guarantees that there is some overarching theme or solution to the problem, so to say. If you "kill" author, you "kill" the need to go after that particular meaning, so plenty other meanings arise. You achieve some kind of democracy in reading, whether with always having an author in mind, it's a tyranny of one intended meaning.

    Okay, can't say I'm familuar with all that.

    I'm much more of an intuitive writer and not so much with the technical aspects, I just go with what feels right and do it that way.


    That's usually the best. Too much planning and technicalities make the writing soulless. Better leave those for the editing process.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [63]Jan 7, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:


    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Must have since I keep seeing people insisting she MUST have REALLY loved Sam but I don't remember seeing any sign whatsoever of that. Must have or we were watching two diffrent shows all that time.
    You can tell at first when she is played by Katie Cassidy she didn't care about Sam and was just using seeing how rough she was with him and Dean but season 4 Ruby was soft with Sam and respected him enough not to hurt Dean
    Well, that's one way of looking at it. Another is that Sam wouldn't have done what she wanted unless she kept him happy so she played along.
    Yeah since you aren't convinced Ruby was in love with Sam what would convinced you that she was in love with Sam?
    Well, your going to say that it wouldn't be in her nature and all that but, for me, IF she REALLY loved Sam for Sam and cared about him she would have changed sides for real. She would have told him the truth, discourged him using his demon power. Not pushed him to drink demon blood. Basically, the opposite of everything she DID and exactly what the people who REALLY love Sam (mainly Dean and Bobby) were doing the whole time. Now, like I said, your going to say that wouldn't have been in line with her demonic nature and her love of her God of all that. However, IF she REALLY loved Sam she would have forsaken all that for HIM. It happens all the time. People in love forsake their family, their friends, change religions, etc... It's not always the best thing (in normal human relationships it shouldn't even be required) but they do it for love and if she HAD love for him she would have done just that. Alternatively, if she had, even one, hesitated or seemed regretful for REALLY conflicted or sorry or concerned or anything other manipulative and slimey then I might be there with ya but I don't see it. I know you're not going to agree and all but that just how I see it.


    Although I completely understand your viewpoint, I think her foresaken the plan to release Lucifer would changed the whole entire mythology that Kripke had written for demons and would made her out to be the good guy and while the demons on this show may be varying degrees of bad but they are all bad and have negative motives to cause death and destruction being spawns from hell but I do agree if she really was conflicted and solemn about betraying Sam and told him I'm sorry things had to end this way but what had to be done then the gray side would been more in your face obvious


    Yeah, I would agree with that as far as it goes. I just don't think she was conflicted in the least and was doing exactly what she wanted. I would beleave she had real feelings for him IF she showed conflict or regret but since she didn't I can only conclude she didn't care at all and it was all just part of the plan.
    I wouldn't exepect her to feel regretful about freeing her God but mabye feel bad about misleading and betraying Sam

    Edited on 01/07/2011 4:26pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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    libra113

    [64]Jan 7, 2011
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    Well, look at it this way: IF she had fully succeeded in her part of the plan she would have been convincing Sam to say yes which would have been the end of Sam himself and the start of Lucifer in Sam's body. Assuming she love HIM and not the exterier package I would think she would want to protect that NOT destroy it. Maybe what she was really in love with was the idea that maybe she could be Lucifer's lover but, of course, he hated demons so that would never happen even if she was unaware of that fact.

    Still, again, Sam wasn't much better. He clearly only liked Ruby becasue she told him what he wanted to hear and didn't give him any greif about his actions no matter how bad they were.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [65]Jan 7, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, look at it this way: IF she had fully succeeded in her part of the plan she would have been convincing Sam to say yes which would have been the end of Sam himself and the start of Lucifer in Sam's body. Assuming she love HIM and not the exterier package I would think she would want to protect that NOT destroy it. Maybe what she was really in love with was the idea that maybe she could be Lucifer's lover but, of course, he hated demons so that would never happen even if she was unaware of that fact.

    Still, again, Sam wasn't much better. He clearly only liked Ruby becasue she told him what he wanted to hear and didn't give him any greif about his actions no matter how bad they were.


    True but I don't think she was aware Sam was a pontential vessel for Lucifer unless she was one of Azazeal demon minions
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [66]Jan 8, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Well, look at it this way: IF she had fully succeeded in her part of the plan she would have been convincing Sam to say yes which would have been the end of Sam himself and the start of Lucifer in Sam's body. Assuming she love HIM and not the exterier package I would think she would want to protect that NOT destroy it. Maybe what she was really in love with was the idea that maybe she could be Lucifer's lover but, of course, he hated demons so that would never happen even if she was unaware of that fact. Still, again, Sam wasn't much better. He clearly only liked Ruby becasue she told him what he wanted to hear and didn't give him any greif about his actions no matter how bad they were.
    True but I don't think she was aware Sam was a pontential vessel for Lucifer unless she was one of Azazeal demon minions
    Also Ruby was not only a ardent follower of Lucifer but she was very loyal as well she still pursued her masterplan despite other demons hating her,wanting her dead, and sending her hell totorture in horrible ways for helping the winchesters, She lied to Sam and manipulated him but she gave him options to hang by her side and didn't force or threaten him to do things like Azazel controlled and literally forced Blake to do his dirty work and she didn't try to kill Dean in cold blood after he killed her at least twice and got in the way of her plans so even if you thought she was using him all along the gray side was she wasn'tdemanding and disobedient like most demons and gave Sam free will to associate with her and she put a nice front for Sam sake instead of being downright cruel with him like Azazel so that was the main gray area from Ruby character

    Edited on 01/08/2011 2:11am
    Edited 2 total times.
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    basenji529

    [67]Jan 8, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Okay, can't say I'm familuar with all that. I'm much more of an intuitive writer and not so much with the technical aspects, I just go with what feels right and do it that way.


    Well, basically it means that, especially when not dealing with a narrative character, we can interpret it how we wish.


    This can be annoying. Some of my paintings have been interpreted in Freudian (or perhaps Jungian) "neo-primitive" terms, when I had no such desire.

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    libra113

    [68]Jan 8, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Well, look at it this way: IF she had fully succeeded in her part of the plan she would have been convincing Sam to say yes which would have been the end of Sam himself and the start of Lucifer in Sam's body. Assuming she love HIM and not the exterier package I would think she would want to protect that NOT destroy it. Maybe what she was really in love with was the idea that maybe she could be Lucifer's lover but, of course, he hated demons so that would never happen even if she was unaware of that fact. Still, again, Sam wasn't much better. He clearly only liked Ruby becasue she told him what he wanted to hear and didn't give him any greif about his actions no matter how bad they were.
    True but I don't think she was aware Sam was a pontential vessel for Lucifer unless she was one of Azazeal demon minions
    Also Ruby was not only a ardent follower of Lucifer but she was very loyal as well she still pursued her masterplan despite other demons hating her,wanting her dead, and sending her hell totorture in horrible ways for helping the winchesters, She lied to Sam and manipulated him but she gave him options to hang by her side and didn't force or threaten him to do things like Azazel controlled and literally forced Blake to do his dirty work and she didn't try to kill Dean in cold blood after he killed her at least twice and got in the way of her plans so even if you thought she was using him all along the gray side was she wasn'tdemanding and disobedient like most demons and gave Sam free will to associate with her and she put a nice front for Sam sake instead of being downright cruel with him like Azazel so that was the main gray area from Ruby character

    Than again demanding wouldn't have gotten anywhere and despite the rift between Sam and Dean just killing Dean would have lost her Sam's trust (espeically if she hid it and he found out on his own later). Also, I would aurgue that her instance that he kill and drain the nurse wasn't letting him make his own choices, she basically badgered him into doing what she wanted all along even though he had strong reservations against it from the start.
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    libra113

    [69]Jan 8, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Well, look at it this way: IF she had fully succeeded in her part of the plan she would have been convincing Sam to say yes which would have been the end of Sam himself and the start of Lucifer in Sam's body. Assuming she love HIM and not the exterier package I would think she would want to protect that NOT destroy it. Maybe what she was really in love with was the idea that maybe she could be Lucifer's lover but, of course, he hated demons so that would never happen even if she was unaware of that fact.

    Still, again, Sam wasn't much better. He clearly only liked Ruby becasue she told him what he wanted to hear and didn't give him any greif about his actions no matter how bad they were.


    True but I don't think she was aware Sam was a pontential vessel for Lucifer unless she was one of Azazeal demon minions
    Well, my impression was that she knew exactly where it was all going and didn't care. Guess that's another grey area, did she know or not? In any case even if she didn't she had to know that releasing Lucifer was the last thing Sam would really want and that she was leading him down a path he wouldn't want to go down.
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    dpebbleson

    [70]Jan 8, 2011
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    basenji529 wrote:

    This can be annoying. Some of my paintings have been interpreted in Freudian (or perhaps Jungian) "neo-primitive" terms, when I had no such desire.



    Why am I not surprised?
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    libra113

    [71]Jan 8, 2011
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    Speaking of interpitation and misinterpitation I think that's kinda the point here.

    All of Ruby's actions can be seen either as an honest attempt made by someone who is falling for the person she was sent to guide or dupe, or they can be seen as a manipualtive creature just doing what she had to do to keep Sam happy and under her thumb.

    Maybe she didn't take an empty body JUST to apease Sam but then again perhaps she did. Maybe she didn't just sleep with him to get him back on track after Dean's death, but then maybe she did and so on.

    It's all up to how you WANT to see it and I guess, in the end, that's really all that matters. I doubt the writers are ever going to offically come down on one side or another (although they may give their own way of looking at in the interviews) so each and every person can be happy in seeing it however they wish to see it and neither has to be really wrong or right.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [72]Jan 8, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Speaking of interpitation and misinterpitation I think that's kinda the point here.

    All of Ruby's actions can be seen either as an honest attempt made by someone who is falling for the person she was sent to guide or dupe, or they can be seen as a manipualtive creature just doing what she had to do to keep Sam happy and under her thumb.

    Maybe she didn't take an empty body JUST to apease Sam but then again perhaps she did. Maybe she didn't just sleep with him to get him back on track after Dean's death, but then maybe she did and so on.

    It's all up to how you WANT to see it and I guess, in the end, that's really all that matters. I doubt the writers are ever going to offically come down on one side or another (although they may give their own way of looking at in the interviews) so each and every person can be happy in seeing it however they wish to see it and neither has to be really wrong or right.



    I agree but I say in the two and half years Sam and her known each other she had to feel something for him
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    libra113

    [73]Jan 8, 2011
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    We all see what we want to see.
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    basenji529

    [74]Jan 9, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    basenji529 wrote:


    This can be annoying. Some of my paintings have been interpreted in Freudian (or perhaps Jungian) "neo-primitive" terms, when I had no such desire.


    Why am I not surprised?


    The most hilarious example is this one girl on alt.native, Monica, who swears up and down alt.native's being taken over by white women. (Y'know, there's an easy way to deal with that.) So of course she accuses anyone who makes any sort of pop culture references or anything like that of not being a RealIndian™. Because, you know, we all have to be reel spirchul.

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    RachelleMcAdams

    [75]Jan 10, 2011
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    I think Dean saw Ruby betrayal coming and that is why he is wanted kill her and Sam to stop hanging around her he predicted back in season 3 that Ruby wanted use Sam as her antichrist superstar and he was right Being a cynic Dean doesn't see shades of gray and if he does he sees little and mostly black or white which is what makes him more skeptical than Sam and less vulnerable

    Edited on 01/10/2011 3:22am
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    libra113

    [76]Jan 10, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    I think Dean saw Ruby betrayal coming and that is why he is wanted kill her and Sam to stop hanging around her he predicted back in season 3 that Ruby wanted use Sam as her antichrist superstar and he was right Being a cynic Dean doesn't see shades of gray and if he does he sees little and mostly black or white which is what makes him more skeptical than Sam and less vulnerable

    Well yeah but also Ruby was always very savy and told Sam what he wanted to hear. The best way to worm your way into someone's good graces is to tell them what they want to hear all the time. Someone who really cares speaks the truth tempered with tact and love but someone who just wants to pretend to be your friend will just tell you what they think you want to hear all times.

    First it was stringing him along with the chance to save Dean, then it was sex and stringing him along with the chance to avenge Dean's death, then it was hooking him on demon blood and pointing him right at Lilith knowing all along what would happen.

    If Sam had been less desperate for approval and support and less despreate to try and turn his demonic 'gifts' to a good use then he probably wouldn't have fallen into her trap either, but we know what happened instead.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [77]Jan 10, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:


    I think Dean saw Ruby betrayal coming and that is why he is wanted kill her and Sam to stop hanging around her he predicted back in season 3 that Ruby wanted use Sam as her antichrist superstar and he was right Being a cynic Dean doesn't see shades of gray and if he does he sees little and mostly black or white which is what makes him more skeptical than Sam and less vulnerable


    Well yeah but also Ruby was always very savy and told Sam what he wanted to hear. The best way to worm your way into someone's good graces is to tell them what they want to hear all the time. Someone who really cares speaks the truth tempered with tact and love but someone who just wants to pretend to be your friend will just tell you what they think you want to hear all times. First it was stringing him along with the chance to save Dean, then it was sex and stringing him along with the chance to avenge Dean's death, then it was hooking him on demon blood and pointing him right at Lilith knowing all along what would happen. If Sam had been less desperate for approval and support and less despreate to try and turn his demonic 'gifts' to a good use then he probably wouldn't have fallen into her trap either, but we know what happened instead.


    She didn't always play nicities she was blunt and rude sometimes when she thought Sam wasn't strong enough she told him when she thought he was fooling around she told him

    Edited on 01/10/2011 3:42pm
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    libra113

    [78]Jan 10, 2011
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    Yeah but it always lead right back to doing what she wanted even if he didn't want to, like killing and bleeding the nurse. He clearly didn't want to and she kept pecking away at him until he fianlly gave in.

    Oh and lets not forget the dirty trick with Dean's phone message. I know there's some debate about if she did it or if it was Zack and his group but, at I recall, she smiled a little when he heard it so she must have been behind it (unless she's got super hearing and heard what was being said) and that was sorta the final nail.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [79]Jan 10, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Yeah but it always lead right back to doing what she wanted even if he didn't want to, like killing and bleeding the nurse. He clearly didn't want to and she kept pecking away at him until he fianlly gave in.

    Oh and lets not forget the dirty trick with Dean's phone message. I know there's some debate about if she did it or if it was Zack and his group but, at I recall, she smiled a little when he heard it so she must have been behind it (unless she's got super hearing and heard what was being said) and that was sorta the final nail.


    That was probably Zach doing only angels can impersonate human voices
    she just sniled because he gave in and she was getting what she wanted
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    libra113

    [80]Jan 10, 2011
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    Well, firstly she smiled right at the point Dean was the most hurtful, secondly they've never said that only angels can copy voices, thirdly was Zac even WATCHING them to know when and what to do or he now all seeing and all knowing too and finally Ruby wasn't just a demon but also a witch as well and we don't know if what happened was real or if she (or whoever) just messed with how Sam heard the message. I may not have been so much a case of altering the actual message as just messing with Sam's perception of the message. It's about the same thing and does the same thing but it's also a bit diffrent.
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