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Do you think the character of Ruby brought a gray shade to demons?

Do you think the character of Ruby brought a gray shade to demons?

  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [101]Jan 16, 2011
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    Just have to watch for knives while you're back there I guess.
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    dpebbleson

    [102]Jan 17, 2011
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    Or spoons - I prefer slower methods
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    libra113

    [103]Jan 17, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    Or spoons - I prefer slower methods
    How "Robin Hood Prince of Theives" of you.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [104]Jan 21, 2011
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    Ruby was in love with Sam and I'm fully convinced she was the way she happily sat in his lap was puppy love and how she comforted him when he started the apocalypse wasn't a typical demon behavior with a human. So yes she did love him temporarily along the the journey to release Lucifer but she stayed loyal to her masterplan so alas I think it's far fetched to say she held any negative emotions for Sam because he was her savior and champion, just look back to the demon Casey for example wh owanted to kill Dean at first because he was a hunter but she ended up geniunely liking him just from a brief conversation so even though Ruby did use Sam but there were emotions involved and I think there was a gray shade brought to demons in the show with Casey and Ruby because while are all demons are bad not all of them are pure evil like Allistair or Azazel

    Edited on 01/21/2011 7:50pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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    libra113

    [105]Jan 21, 2011
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    But, again, the ultime goal was to get Lucifer in Sam's body meaning the REAL Sam would be gone forever. If she REALLY loved him and not his powers or his role as a vessle just HIM then she wouldn't want to destroy that for anything.

    If she REALLY loved him she MIGHT have stuck with her plan but she wouldn't have wanted him to be a vessle and would have lead Sam to take Lucifer's place and rule Hell on Earth.

    To me what she REALLY loved was the power and having an in with Lucifer's vessle and perhaps hoping that it would translate to her being Lucifer's right hand person (or even lover).

    I doubt she gave a second thought to the TRUE Sam, the part that made him a person and just saw it as something to be removed to get what she really wanted.

    There's nothing she's said or done that proves anything like REAL love the only reason there's even any debate is because the writers left it so that anyone can see what they want and thoes who bought into Ruby's snow job just can't accept that was all it was so they see love where there was none.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [106]Jan 21, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    But, again, the ultime goal was to get Lucifer in Sam's body meaning the REAL Sam would be gone forever. If she REALLY loved him and not his powers or his role as a vessle just HIM then she wouldn't want to destroy that for anything.

    If she REALLY loved him she MIGHT have stuck with her plan but she wouldn't have wanted him to be a vessle and would have lead Sam to take Lucifer's place and rule Hell on Earth.

    To me what she REALLY loved was the power and having an in with Lucifer's vessle and perhaps hoping that it would translate to her being Lucifer's right hand person (or even lover).

    I doubt she gave a second thought to the TRUE Sam, the part that made him a person and just saw it as something to be removed to get what she really wanted.

    There's nothing she's said or done that proves anything like REAL love the only reason there's even any debate is because the writers left it so that anyone can see what they want and thoes who bought into Ruby's snow job just can't accept that was all it was so they see love where there was none.










    There was real love to me and majority of the voters on this poll That is your viewpoint and until I hear from Eric Kripke whether his Ruby character loved Sam or not then all just a matter of opinion

    I don't think Ruby knew that Lucifer wanted Sam as vessel she had in mind that Sam would be rewarded like her
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    libra113

    [107]Jan 21, 2011
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    Well, yeah I thought I said that it was written to be seen however the viewer wanted. To me to beleave she REALLY loved him I would have to see one clear, selfless act that showed any feeling toward him whatsoever but didn't benifit her at all.

    What I DID see was her saying and doing anything to make him do what she wanted. She did what he told her to keep him happy, told him what he wanted to hear to keep him happy. She didn't do anything for him that didn't also further her cause.

    As for not knowing the true end game I find that unlikely. She knew more than any other demon walking the earth and even if you think she loved Sam she didn't at the start so there would be no reason to withhold that one bit of information. Given what we know she knew her not knowing that one bit of information seems kinda of odd and unlikely.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [108]Jan 21, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, yeah I thought I said that it was written to be seen however the viewer wanted. To me to beleave she REALLY loved him I would have to see one clear, selfless act that showed any feeling toward him whatsoever but didn't benifit her at all. What I DID see was her saying and doing anything to make him do what she wanted. She did what he told her to keep him happy, told him what he wanted to hear to keep him happy. She didn't do anything for him that didn't also further her cause. As for not knowing the true end game I find that unlikely. She knew more than any other demon walking the earth and even if you think she loved Sam she didn't at the start so there would be no reason to withhold that one bit of information. Given what we know she knew her not knowing that one bit of information seems kinda of odd and unlikely.
    Love IS selfish. You want someone to be there for you. To love you for you and only you. To be your everything and give everything for you. You want to be the sole focus of somebody. People are inherently selfish and so are demons . There are no acts without selfishness. Love is about happiness but at the same time self satisfaction andRuby was happy around Sam, even when she got back from hell and Sam was depressed about Dean death Ruby was still cheerful and asking Sam out on dates so IMO if you are happy around a person no matter what and demons aren't usually happycampers anywayso Ruby must had hold some mutual feelings or fondness of Sam obviously

    Edited on 01/21/2011 10:48pm
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    libra113

    [109]Jan 22, 2011
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    Yes, but the flip side is you WANT to do all that for them too. You put them before yourself and everything and, as I said, it's highly unlikely she didn't know the end game and knowing that she lead him right into death of everything that made him who he is. If she REALLY loved Sam for himself she would want to protect that not destroy it.

    IMO she only cared about him as Lucifer's vessel and a means to free Lucifer from Hell. If anything it's Lucifer she loves and she would have acted exactly the same if the vessle was Sam, if it was Jake, hell if it was Ava. It was just a job. Maybe she enjoyed it a bit more becasue for surface reasons but real love is far beyond a creature like her.

    Thing is, as I said, the writers have cleverly left it open so you see it your way, I see it my way and that's just how it is.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [110]Jan 22, 2011
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    I think you are just seeing things in black and white here if you exepect some heavenly love where everything is so bright and shinining and Ruby to act like some 50s housewife then you are highly mistaken because Ruby is a demon and I think while demons can love their love is stil twisted and sick which what Ruby love for Sam was Ruby thought Sam would be rewarded as she was by Lucifer And I also think it's far fetched to say demons can't lovebecause inSPN Eric kripke wrote demons as being able to love as we saw Casey had a demon lover and and Azazeal, Lilith, Ruby, and almost all demons loved their god and lovers do keep secrets from each other all the time Mary never told John that she was a hunter or she made a demon deal to bring him back to life but does that she did't love him? No it's just means love isn't perfect in the sense that it's pure and innocent and full of truth and trust


    But if Ruby had told Sam about her plan it would RUIN the entire mythology of demons, You can't exepect Ruby to do what Castiel at the end of season 4 because Ruby is not angel but a twisted creaturewho wanted to meet her maker

    Edited on 01/22/2011 10:22am
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    dpebbleson

    [111]Jan 22, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    I think you are just seeing things in black and white here if you exepect some heavenly love where everything is so bright and shinining and Ruby to act like some 50s housewife then you are highly mistaken because Ruby is a demon and I think while demons can love their love is stil twisted and sick which what Ruby love for Sam was Ruby thought Sam would be rewarded as she was by Lucifer And I also think it's far fetched to say demons can't lovebecause inSPN Eric kripke wrote demons as being able to love as we saw Casey had a demon lover and and Azazeal, Lilith, Ruby, and almost all demons loved their god and lovers do keep secrets from each other all the time Mary never told John that she was a hunter or she made a demon deal to bring him back to life but does that she did't love him? No it's just means love isn't perfect in the sense that it's pure and innocent and full of truth and trust


    But if Ruby had told Sam about her plan it would RUIN the entire mythology of demons, You can't exepect Ruby to do what Castiel at the end of season 4 because Ruby is not angel but a twisted creaturewho wanted to meet her maker



    I second this, and especially like the parallel with Mary being a hunter, and John never knowing anything about it. From your theory, Libra, it would seem Mary didn't love John, but she did, and she made a deal which in the end was ruin for Sam, but she had to do it because she wanted to save John. Ruby is so twisted she thought Sam was actually changed and on her side now, and that he would understand why all that was necessary, and that's why she was so absolutely surprised when he held her up for Dean to stab her. She expected Dean to attack her, but not Sam to catch her from behind.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [112]Jan 22, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    I think you are just seeing things in black and white here if you exepect some heavenly love where everything is so bright and shinining and Ruby to act like some 50s housewife then you are highly mistaken because Ruby is a demon and I think while demons can love their love is stil twisted and sick which what Ruby love for Sam was Ruby thought Sam would be rewarded as she was by Lucifer And I also think it's far fetched to say demons can't lovebecause inSPN Eric kripke wrote demons as being able to love as we saw Casey had a demon lover and and Azazeal, Lilith, Ruby, and almost all demons loved their god and lovers do keep secrets from each other all the time Mary never told John that she was a hunter or she made a demon deal to bring him back to life but does that she did't love him? No it's just means love isn't perfect in the sense that it's pure and innocent and full of truth and trust


    But if Ruby had told Sam about her plan it would RUIN the entire mythology of demons, You can't exepect Ruby to do what Castiel at the end of season 4 because Ruby is not angel but a twisted creaturewho wanted to meet her maker



    I second this, and especially like the parallel with Mary being a hunter, and John never knowing anything about it. From your theory, Libra, it would seem Mary didn't love John, but she did, and she made a deal which in the end was ruin for Sam, but she had to do it because she wanted to save John. Ruby is so twisted she thought Sam was actually changed and on her side now, and that he would understand why all that was necessary, and that's why she was so absolutely surprised when he held her up for Dean to stab her. She expected Dean to attack her, but not Sam to catch her from behind.



    Exactly Ruby thought Sam was emotionally attached to her aa she was to him so she didn't expect him to help killl her
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    libra113

    [113]Jan 22, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    I think you are just seeing things in black and white here if you exepect some heavenly love where everything is so bright and shinining and Ruby to act like some 50s housewife then you are highly mistaken because Ruby is a demon and I think while demons can love their love is stil twisted and sick which what Ruby love for Sam was Ruby thought Sam would be rewarded as she was by Lucifer And I also think it's far fetched to say demons can't lovebecause inSPN Eric kripke wrote demons as being able to love as we saw Casey had a demon lover and and Azazeal, Lilith, Ruby, and almost all demons loved their god and lovers do keep secrets from each other all the time Mary never told John that she was a hunter or she made a demon deal to bring him back to life but does that she did't love him? No it's just means love isn't perfect in the sense that it's pure and innocent and full of truth and trust


    But if Ruby had told Sam about her plan it would RUIN the entire mythology of demons, You can't exepect Ruby to do what Castiel at the end of season 4 because Ruby is not angel but a twisted creaturewho wanted to meet her maker

    Yeah but Mary didn't force John to do things he didn't want to, lie to him at every turn and engage in a plan that would leave his mind/soul gone and his body the home of her evil 'god'.

    I really can't call what demons feel love if it doesn't fit the trueist definition of love. What good is there love if they still kill thoes they claim to love, still betray and destroy them, still hold themselves and their desires above all else.

    I just can't see that she loved him when everything she did was so twisted and self serving and I still can't see that she was lied to about the full end game when she knew more than other demon walking the earth. Why tell her everything but lie about the end? It's not like she loved Sam at the start so lying to her about the ultimate goal makes no sense whatsoever. She had to know and just not care.

    But again, it's written to be seen however you like and we're never going to the situation the same way so why do we continue doing this?
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    libra113

    [114]Jan 22, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    I think you are just seeing things in black and white here if you exepect some heavenly love where everything is so bright and shinining and Ruby to act like some 50s housewife then you are highly mistaken because Ruby is a demon and I think while demons can love their love is stil twisted and sick which what Ruby love for Sam was Ruby thought Sam would be rewarded as she was by Lucifer And I also think it's far fetched to say demons can't lovebecause inSPN Eric kripke wrote demons as being able to love as we saw Casey had a demon lover and and Azazeal, Lilith, Ruby, and almost all demons loved their god and lovers do keep secrets from each other all the time Mary never told John that she was a hunter or she made a demon deal to bring him back to life but does that she did't love him? No it's just means love isn't perfect in the sense that it's pure and innocent and full of truth and trust


    But if Ruby had told Sam about her plan it would RUIN the entire mythology of demons, You can't exepect Ruby to do what Castiel at the end of season 4 because Ruby is not angel but a twisted creaturewho wanted to meet her maker



    I second this, and especially like the parallel with Mary being a hunter, and John never knowing anything about it. From your theory, Libra, it would seem Mary didn't love John, but she did, and she made a deal which in the end was ruin for Sam, but she had to do it because she wanted to save John. Ruby is so twisted she thought Sam was actually changed and on her side now, and that he would understand why all that was necessary, and that's why she was so absolutely surprised when he held her up for Dean to stab her. She expected Dean to attack her, but not Sam to catch her from behind.
    and how nice of you to gloss over one glaring fact. The ultimate goal was to get Lucifer inside Sam's body and Sam would be gone. Agian, I can't buy that she was kept in the dark about this one detail when she clearly knew everything else. Knowing that how could she allow that to happen AND still love him.

    To use you're own Mary comparision she made her deal to SAVE John, that's NOT what Ruby was doing she was leading Sam to evil by the nose and waiting for Lucifer to take over his body and then he would be gone.

    At most she loved Lucifer and wanted Sam as an in to his favor. Still, as I said Sam himself was using Ruby as well for validation he wasn't getting from thoes who REALLY loved him and told him the truth all along.

    Once they were done using each other it was time to move on.
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    Canogaparkcindy

    [115]Jan 22, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    I think you are just seeing things in black and white here if you exepect some heavenly love where everything is so bright and shinining and Ruby to act like some 50s housewife then you are highly mistaken because Ruby is a demon and I think while demons can love their love is stil twisted and sick which what Ruby love for Sam was Ruby thought Sam would be rewarded as she was by Lucifer And I also think it's far fetched to say demons can't lovebecause inSPN Eric kripke wrote demons as being able to love as we saw Casey had a demon lover and and Azazeal, Lilith, Ruby, and almost all demons loved their god and lovers do keep secrets from each other all the time Mary never told John that she was a hunter or she made a demon deal to bring him back to life but does that she did't love him? No it's just means love isn't perfect in the sense that it's pure and innocent and full of truth and trust


    But if Ruby had told Sam about her plan it would RUIN the entire mythology of demons, You can't exepect Ruby to do what Castiel at the end of season 4 because Ruby is not angel but a twisted creaturewho wanted to meet her maker



    I second this, and especially like the parallel with Mary being a hunter, and John never knowing anything about it. From your theory, Libra, it would seem Mary didn't love John, but she did, and she made a deal which in the end was ruin for Sam, but she had to do it because she wanted to save John. Ruby is so twisted she thought Sam was actually changed and on her side now, and that he would understand why all that was necessary, and that's why she was so absolutely surprised when he held her up for Dean to stab her. She expected Dean to attack her, but not Sam to catch her from behind.
    and how nice of you to gloss over one glaring fact. The ultimate goal was to get Lucifer inside Sam's body and Sam would be gone. Agian, I can't buy that she was kept in the dark about this one detail when she clearly knew everything else. Knowing that how could she allow that to happen AND still love him.

    To use you're own Mary comparision she made her deal to SAVE John, that's NOT what Ruby was doing she was leading Sam to evil by the nose and waiting for Lucifer to take over his body and then he would be gone.

    At most she loved Lucifer and wanted Sam as an in to his favor. Still, as I said Sam himself was using Ruby as well for validation he wasn't getting from thoes who REALLY loved him and told him the truth all along.

    Once they were done using each other it was time to move on.
    I can't believe you guys are still arguing about this. Neither side is going to give up!
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    dpebbleson

    [116]Jan 22, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    and how nice of you to gloss over one glaring fact. The ultimate goal was to get Lucifer inside Sam's body and Sam would be gone. Agian, I can't buy that she was kept in the dark about this one detail when she clearly knew everything else. Knowing that how could she allow that to happen AND still love him.


    Haha, and you gloss over one glaring fact: Lucifer was going to conquer Heaven after he finished with Earth, I don't think he intended to stay in his meat-suit for forever.


    libra113 wrote:
    To use you're own Mary comparision she made her deal to SAVE John, that's NOT what Ruby was doing she was leading Sam to evil by the nose and waiting for Lucifer to take over his body and then he would be gone.


    You twist my words, I wasn't comparing Mary to a demon. I was comparing hiding so big secrets from someone you (supposedly) love. We probably have different ideas on what love is, but it's definitely not some heavenly thing with full mutual respect and whatnot. People stay people, even in love, they still have their secrets and their sins. And the fact many loves break is because of those many secrets and sins and flaws of character.


    Besides, who says you only love one person? Maybe Ruby loved two. She loved Lucifer and she loved Sam. First is a spiritual love towards God and the other is physical towards a man. I've heard of examples men and women introducing their spouses to Christianity or any other religion, converting them to those. And I heard of many examples where a major difference in religion produced a rift, some choose God, some choose a spouse.


    But you are expecting a natural, human love from a witch-demon, who sold her soul 600 years ago (that's countless millennia in Hell's terms). Do you honestly expect a normal love from her? Love without sin and deceit? Love without using and abusing the loved one. There are sadists who love their victims and still torture them. That's sick, but to them it's still love, they can't really understand when you tell them it's no love but torture. What matter is that Ruby was surprised, she tried to comfort him, in her twisted mind she thought she was doing him a favour.


    You say she would be same to all. But you can't know that. For some Ruby wouldn't be necessary. Some wouldn't have Dean. But nonetheless I think she would still try to convert them to Luciferianism because she thought it was the right thing to do. For her, freeing her god is the right thing to do.


    Why is Castiel, who spent entire season of lying to Dean about killing Lilith, who let Sam go and join Ruby, so different? Why is he Dean's friend, despite lying to him and using him. He too was serving his lord. He still serves him. But he was given eye-opener. If you gave Ruby time to see Lucifer in action she may have regretted it. But Castiel has a 'bond' with Dean, whereas Ruby, who did pretty much the same all season to Sam does not have, and us fans are seeing what we want to see. Unfair.

    Edited on 01/22/2011 3:06pm
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    libra113

    [117]Jan 22, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    and how nice of you to gloss over one glaring fact. The ultimate goal was to get Lucifer inside Sam's body and Sam would be gone. Agian, I can't buy that she was kept in the dark about this one detail when she clearly knew everything else. Knowing that how could she allow that to happen AND still love him.


    Haha, and you gloss over one glaring fact: Lucifer was going to conquer Heaven after he finished with Earth, I don't think he intended to stay in his meat-suit for forever.


    libra113 wrote:
    To use you're own Mary comparision she made her deal to SAVE John, that's NOT what Ruby was doing she was leading Sam to evil by the nose and waiting for Lucifer to take over his body and then he would be gone.


    You twist my words, I wasn't comparing Mary to a demon. I was comparing hiding so big secrets from someone you (supposedly) love. We probably have different ideas on what love is, but it's definitely not some heavenly thing with full mutual respect and whatnot. People stay people, even in love, they still have their secrets and their sins. And the fact many loves break is because of those many secrets and sins and flaws of character.


    Besides, who says you only love one person? Maybe Ruby loved two. She loved Lucifer and she loved Sam. First is a spiritual love towards God and the other is physical towards a man. I've heard of examples men and women introducing their spouses to Christianity or any other religion, converting them to those. And I heard of many examples where a major difference in religion produced a rift, some choose God, some choose a spouse.


    But you are expecting a natural, human love from a witch-demon, who sold her soul 600 years ago (that's countless millennia in Hell's terms). Do you honestly expect a normal love from her? Love without sin and deceit? Love without using and abusing the loved one. There are sadists who love their victims and still torture them. That's sick, but to them it's still love, they can't really understand when you tell them it's no love but torture. What matter is that Ruby was surprised, she tried to comfort him, in her twisted mind she thought she was doing him a favour.


    You say she would be same to all. But you can't know that. For some Ruby wouldn't be necessary. Some wouldn't have Dean. But nonetheless I think she would still try to convert them to Luciferianism because she thought it was the right thing to do. For her, freeing her god is the right thing to do.


    Why is Castiel, who spent entire season of lying to Dean about killing Lilith, who let Sam go and join Ruby, so different? Why is he Dean's friend, despite lying to him and using him. He too was serving his lord. He still serves him. But he was given eye-opener. If you gave Ruby time to see Lucifer in action she may have regretted it. But Castiel has a 'bond' with Dean, whereas Ruby, who did pretty much the same all season to Sam does not have, and us fans are seeing what we want to see. Unfair.

    Well, I don't recall anything being said about him going on to conqour Heaven per se. I mean it's a logical next step but the story was really about making the Earth in his own image. Maybe that would have come later but I doubt even if it did that Lucifer would be so kind as to leave Sam just the way he found him. More likely he would have ended up like that poor guy who was Raphs vessle, a drooling mess.

    Diffrence is Mary's secret didn't harm John. Sure it made it easier for Yellow Eyes to strike but we have no idea what Mary's thinking was exactly. Maybe she planned to intervein and keep it all to herself to protect John from the truth OR maybe the angels cleared it all from her mind until she saw Yellow Eyes that night and it came flooding back thus assuring she wouldn't risk upsetting the apple cart. What we DO know is that Ruby's lies where much more selfish and harmful to Sam and, personally, if I had to pick between the two who was better the choice is pretty clear.

    Well, I'm a little unclear how you can define love in such terms. I've seen a lot of 'in her own way' or whatever but what does that even mean? Love may be diffrent for everyone but the core is mutial respect and caring and she was willing to make him do things he didn't want to (she pretty much forced him to drink that nurse's blood) and when push came to shove it was her and her plans she loved and everything else was just part of the job.

    Well yeah, I'm sure Ruby wouldn't have been called for in most (if all) cases since none of the others understood the real ramifications of what was happening. However, I have zero doubt IF she was needed to guide Jake or the others she would have been there doing it. She would have slept with them if seduction was required. She would have told them what they needed to hear. Anything to get the job done.

    Maybe I missed something but I thought it was made clear that Cas was kept in the dark (with the other troops on the ground) about what was REALLY going on becasue the higher up angels didn't want them to try and mess with their plans. Basically, the higher ups were lying to the angels on Earth and making them think the orders they were giving were Gods when they were not.

    The diffrence between Cas and Ruby is that Cas never (that we know of) willfully lied to Dean. Never fed his ego by telling him what he wanted to hear, even when it was wrong and most importantly when the chips were down and it REALLY counted he did the right thing and helped Dean while Ruby kept on doing whatever she wanted and manipulating Sam right up to the end.

    I will say again, however, that the situation with Ruby and Sam was complicated and cleverly crafted to be open to whatever interpitaiton wished. If someone wants to beleave there was more there then cool. I however, see it as a situation where they BOTH used each other to get what they wanted/needed and when they got that it was done. It's just that Ruby got the better of Sam and came out ahead in the using the other person tally.
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    dpebbleson

    [118]Jan 23, 2011
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    "We're going to Heaven, Clarence!" - those are Meg's words. In the end, Heaven was the ultimate goal for Lucifer, I doubt he would choose to remain on Earth trapped in an uncomfortable body of a mere human. The reward for Sam would come after that, I guess, even if his body was wrecked, his soul could be rewarded by a special place in Heaven.

    Re: love - I know love is about mutual respect, that's basically a truism. But the conditions of love define it as well. It can be helped or deterred by those conditions. But you are again talking about human - normal - love. I'm talking about demonic love of Ruby's which is mostly physical infatuation, coupled with the thought that Sam was so in love with her that he began to share her views regarding Lucifer, even though he wasn't aware on it on the surface. She believed she converted him into another demon, or at least a person very nearly ready to be converted, that he shifted to her side. And his eyes did turn black.

    So, please, don't get insulted, but I don't think normal love comes into discussion here. We're talking here about twisted kind of love, full of deceit, based on sex and lies. But still some kind of love.

    And that demons can love is shown in that episode with Cassi being in love with that priest-demon. And a paramount examples: demons generally love Lucifer. He is their father, they worship him. That's also a kind of love.

    Hell, even Meg has some kind of attraction to Castiel!

    Re: Castiel - he wasn't kept in the dark that much. He did release Sam without telling Dean about it. He was going to let Sam kill Lilith and release Lucifer, even though he liked Dean. And why? Because he swore loyalty to God and his commanding officers, like Michael and Zachariah. It was because Dean found out that he was able to confront Castiel about what he did and that he lied to him A LOT. That's what swayed Castiel thought and made him rebel.

    But he did do all those things and didn't tell Dean of them. Now Ruby wasn't given such opportunity.

    And finally, there is an upcoming meta-episode which will help us a lot in our debate. I don't want to spoil it for you, but it is very Sam-Ruby related, just in a world without Lucifer and Apocalypse.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [119]Jan 23, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    "We're going to Heaven, Clarence!" - those are Meg's words. In the end, Heaven was the ultimate goal for Lucifer, I doubt he would choose to remain on Earth trapped in an uncomfortable body of a mere human. The reward for Sam would come after that, I guess, even if his body was wrecked, his soul could be rewarded by a special place in Heaven.

    Re: love - I know love is about mutual respect, that's basically a truism. But the conditions of love define it as well. It can be helped or deterred by those conditions. But you are again talking about human - normal - love. I'm talking about demonic love of Ruby's which is mostly physical infatuation, coupled with the thought that Sam was so in love with her that he began to share her views regarding Lucifer, even though he wasn't aware on it on the surface. She believed she converted him into another demon, or at least a person very nearly ready to be converted, that he shifted to her side. And his eyes did turn black.

    So, please, don't get insulted, but I don't think normal love comes into discussion here. We're talking here about twisted kind of love, full of deceit, based on sex and lies. But still some kind of love.

    And that demons can love is shown in that episode with Cassi being in love with that priest-demon. And a paramount examples: demons generally love Lucifer. He is their father, they worship him. That's also a kind of love.

    Hell, even Meg has some kind of attraction to Castiel!

    Re: Castiel - he wasn't kept in the dark that much. He did release Sam without telling Dean about it. He was going to let Sam kill Lilith and release Lucifer, even though he liked Dean. And why? Because he swore loyalty to God and his commanding officers, like Michael and Zachariah. It was because Dean found out that he was able to confront Castiel about what he did and that he lied to him A LOT. That's what swayed Castiel thought and made him rebel.

    But he did do all those things and didn't tell Dean of them. Now Ruby wasn't given such opportunity.

    And finally, there is an upcoming meta-episode which will help us a lot in our debate. I don't want to spoil it for you, but it is very Sam-Ruby related, just in a world without Lucifer and Apocalypse.
    Well, I don't know if that's EXACTLY what was meant by that line but even if it was I wouldn't be so sure that Lucifer would leave Sam as he found him. Lucifer's whole character is that he hates humans and doesn't care about them at all so I find it unlikely that he would let Sam go unharmed and reward him for his unwitting help. More likely he would end up a drooling mess or dead.

    Well, I don't know if that's REALLY any kind of love at all. I've seen a lot real and made up about thoes kind of 'relationships' and it always seems more to be about using each other than about any kind of real emotion love or otherwise. That's what I see here. Ruby needed Sam to acheive her goals and Sam needed someone to tell him what he was doing was right (even though it wasn't) and give him the support that thoes who REALLY cared about him were unable to give him becasue they were more intrested in saving him than just going along with his maddness.

    I never get insulted, to me it's all fun and games.

    Well, some form of twisted love between demons is possible and we've seen it but I doubt it's much more than a mere shadow of what we know of as love and likely it's much more along the lines of simply forming alliances and building status, working their way up the infernal chain of command. Still, I doubt such feeling for a human (or even a human tainted by demon blood) is ever truely possible simply because, in the end, their goals would be mutial exclusive. It's kinda like in that awful Batman movie where they paired Poision Ivy and Mr. Freeze. It made no sense because their goals were totally opposite and it was clear it would end badly. Same thing with humans and demons. The whole Meg/Cas thing is intresting but as we saw she just did it to get his sword (okay that sounded dirty) and he did it becasue he had been watching porn and probably thought that was the proper response to her actions.

    Well, Cas, like the rest of the troops on the ground, were kept in the dark about the larger details. Clearly he, and the others, were REALLY fighting to stop the seals from being broken but their bossess were working against them in secret and claiming their orders were God's will. As for letting Sam out and all that you have to remember that it after he had been drug back to Heaven and brainwashed. After that he was, as it started out, very cold and uncaring and didn't have any intresting in helping Dean. However, Dean was able to get him back, to rekindle (also sounds dirty for some reason ) his emotions and get him to help in the end. As for Ruby not having the chance, she had pleanty of chances, the time would have been BEFORE Lilith was killed or even right after but instead she's gloating and happy.

    Can't wait to see it and see why it's an issue now. I'm sure they're going to make a lot of Ruby fans happy by redeeming her but I still find it hard to swallow so it will just be one of thoes things they do to make a group fans happy but makes no real sense.
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