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if lisa had been someone else

  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [21]Feb 26, 2011
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    tvtome_xena321 wrote:
    hmm well dont hate me but the Jo concept would of worked alot, a female hunter and dean would of worked alot more. I'm not saying Jo should of been with Dean, but the concept they wanted in season 2 with a relationship with Dean would of worked a hell of alot better than Lisa. But none of the characters we have had have worked, and If they wrote Jo alot more mature and strong, it could of worked.

    But I say drop the whole storyline.
    I agree that Dean is much better matched with a hunter than a normal chick who he would have to save every other week (doesn't he have enough on his hands).

    However, I think a more seasoned hunter, someone who is his equal and can stand by him and take the load off his shoulders would be way better than a little girl playing at being a bad ass adult.

    Actually, if they could have gotten past their personal issues Bela would have been a good match becasue, depite their diffrences, they had a lot in common aside from selling their souls, and it would have been great to see her stick around and slowly develop a realationship with him as he managed to kick down the walls she put up against a cruel and painful world.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [22]Feb 26, 2011
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    jack756 wrote:

    i jus feel like some u guys are misreading what i wrote.


    im jus clearly saying when u watch route 666 and heaven and hell its very clear dean has more of a connection with cassie and anna on screen..


    btw im a guy and im not into much hooking up on shows but if u gone do it do it right.i feel like the writers put dean with lisa b/c he thinks of ben as his son and thats it..


    to me dean and lisa are so boring(seeing him with cassie and anna there so many stories they can write bout them but with lisa its jus boring).. when u compare lisato cassie and anna it makes dean and lisa look like they have no connection...


    like i said if they gone do it do it right why put dean with lisa jus b/c of a family when he can start one of his own withcassie or try and make it work with anna(if she was alive)..thats all im saying.

    I'm a dude, I have no designs on anyone in the show character or actor becasue such things are just silly but as you say if you're going to do it do it right.

    Honestly, I think the only reason they stuck Dean with Lisa and Ben was becasue they couldn't think of anything better to do with him so they dusted off that throwaway bit from "The Kids Are Alright" and stuck him there. I can see WHY they would do it becasue it's an instant family for Dean and he can settle down and live a normal life.

    Thing is the concept is flawed. There's no way Dean can know what he knows or seen what he seen and live a normal life with anyone (look how quickly he jumped back in when he thought something was going on in "Exile on Main Street"). Further to think he could even TRY such a thing with Sam in Hell is just silly and it's a bit of a slap in Dean's face to just stick him with some chick and her kid because it's convient.

    Dean DOES diserve a family of his own (he won't get one but does diserve it) but not some instantly family with a chick he spent one week with doing little (if anything) other than having sex and some kid he thought was his in the past but who isn't.

    Dean diserves to go through the whole thing. Meeting, falling in love, getting married, having kids and being there for their birth and their first steps and their first words and all that.

    Instant family is cheating on the writers part and no matter how they spin it it's just lazy writing.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [23]Feb 26, 2011
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    taxcat11 wrote:
    Actually Lisa was more like a one-week stand as well as Dean's favourite one to date. But the problem with Anna & Dean remains that Anna gave up being human and returned to being an angel. Now I like Cas, but I really don't think a relationship between a human & angel would work.
    That is kinda a major issue with the Lisa character in general.

    In the first episode she was in ("The Kids Are Alright") all Dean talked about was what a great lay she was and all he mentioned they did was have sex over and over again and, judging by her friends, that's all she ever said about him.

    Suddenly he THINKS he has a son and it's a endless loving relationship. Don't think so. Shotgun wedding at best, at worst a disastrious attempt for two people with nothing in common but sex to try and make something that's not real.

    If they wanted Dean to settle down at the end of season five they should have had him meet someone early in the season and build a realationship with them slowly over time.

    Hell, they should have had Sam and Dean save Oliva Lowerly from the Witnessess and start something there. She was a blank slate and a skilled hunter and someone he could have slowly built something with over time and then it would have been real and made sense.

    Or, perhaps they didn't want it to be real so Dean could more easily disengage and fall into old habits and his old life at the drop of a hat.

    Still, if he had been with someone like Olvia then she could have helped him deal with robo Sam and all that went after.
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    jack756

    [24]Feb 26, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    presario111 wrote:

    seeing how everyone has a dislike for lisa. i cant help but wonder if things would be different had the writers chosen a some other female charecter theyve show in past episodes for dean to have tried to start a life with. because personally i think there r other girls that have been on this show that had a much better connection to dean than lisa. so if u could have put someone else in lisa's place who would it be.


    Well, to me the only real choice is, of course, Cassie. They had a real and established history and the only stumbling block was that she couldn't handle his lifestyle and saw no place in it for her or him in her lifestyle. However, if he was going to quit hunting (which in and of itself I find hard to beleave he really could) and settle down then it had as much a chance as working as anything else.

    My issue with Lisa is that she seemed to weak willed (except in her first appearance and in, hopefully her last), so willing to put herself and her child at risk just to have a man in her life it was kinda pathetic really.

    I also has issues with the odds that an ex-fling of Dean's would happen to be right in the middle of a hunt and he would happen to decide to look her up at the exact same point that she and her young son (who happens to be like him in ways that even his own son just wouldn't be) were in danger.

    The whole episode was just silly and to keep bringing her and the kid up was just forced and silly.

    The only reason she was in his dream was becasue the quest appearance by Jason Vorhees fell through and the only reason she showed up at the end of season five was becasue the writers thought it was all over and wanted to find somewhere for Dean to settle. It was all so poorly done.
    thats what ive been trying to say but i dont think i was saying it right.i agree with u a 100%.i read ur other post and i agree with that.i couldnt have said it better.i guess i was having a hard time explaininig how i feel bout lisabut i agree wit everthing u said in this post and the others on this topic
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [25]Feb 27, 2011
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    Thank you kindly and you're welcome.

    I would also like to add that people have been unfairly hard on Cassie just becasue she had the wisdom to know that they have no future as long as Dean is a hunter.

    People say she used him and tossed him aside but that's their interpitation.

    What I saw was a desperate woman who suddenly realized that Dean was telling the truth and wasn't crazy. She realized he was her only hope so she called for help.

    He's the one who initiated the romantic stuff this time and, at first, she tried to keep it professional but then emotion and yes physical attraction got the better of the both of them.

    Dean, sadly, wasn't thinking clearly when started in about the two of them being together. Hell, at that time, he and Sam were looking for their father who could have been hurt or dead and he couldn't just stop the search and try and build a life with her then and Cassie knew that.

    It's not that she used him and tossed him aside it's that she needed his help but knew they had no future with things as they are.

    I wish they would bring her back and give us a chance to see her again and see how things go now. She is a reporter, she knows about the supernatural, there were world wide signs of the end of the world in season five. Sounds like something she might want to look into.
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    tvtome_xena321

    [26]Mar 2, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    tvtome_xena321 wrote:
    hmm well dont hate me but the Jo concept would of worked alot, a female hunter and dean would of worked alot more. I'm not saying Jo should of been with Dean, but the concept they wanted in season 2 with a relationship with Dean would of worked a hell of alot better than Lisa. But none of the characters we have had have worked, and If they wrote Jo alot more mature and strong, it could of worked.

    But I say drop the whole storyline.
    I agree that Dean is much better matched with a hunter than a normal chick who he would have to save every other week (doesn't he have enough on his hands).

    However, I think a more seasoned hunter, someone who is his equal and can stand by him and take the load off his shoulders would be way better than a little girl playing at being a bad ass adult.

    Actually, if they could have gotten past their personal issues Bela would have been a good match becasue, depite their diffrences, they had a lot in common aside from selling their souls, and it would have been great to see her stick around and slowly develop a realationship with him as he managed to kick down the walls she put up against a cruel and painful world.


    I think that would of worked fine someone his equal, and have to be someone closer to his age aswell, not that someone young couldn't work either. I wouldn't have minded Bela with that slow developement, I liked Bela, I was pretty upset she didn't work out, and a bit upset the writers didn't have the guts to stick her out longer. Lisa will just never work out, thats why a hunter girlfriend would, as theres more hope, and eventually if they did settle down, while still hunting, pass on knowledge to the next generation of hunters with kids. Surely the Wincestor line wont end with them lol
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [27]Mar 2, 2011
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    My issue with Lisa was that she was so out of left feild when they first showed her (and the idea that one of Dean's exs would just happen to be in the middle of a hunt is just silly), then after that she showed up in his dreams becasue their first plan fell through (making her filler), then the part where she shows up at the end of last season seemed so forced and unnatural just to set up this whole crazy idea that he should settle down with.

    The whole thing was poorly executed and planed and needs to be swept under the rug and forgotten as quickly as possible.

    Thankfully, this last appearance seemed very much like a final good bye so maybe that will be that.
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    smegmag

    [28]Mar 3, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    My issue with Lisa was that she was so out of left feild when they first showed her (and the idea that one of Dean's exs would just happen to be in the middle of a hunt is just silly), then after that she showed up in his dreams becasue their first plan fell through (making her filler), then the part where she shows up at the end of last season seemed so forced and unnatural just to set up this whole crazy idea that he should settle down with. The whole thing was poorly executed and planed and needs to be swept under the rug and forgotten as quickly as possible. Thankfully, this last appearance seemed very much like a final good bye so maybe that will be that.




    I totally agree with your take on Lisa (which I maintain was never Lisa but the two-headed Lisa/Ben), on the randomness of the relationship, on Cassie, etc. What I am curious about is how much do you think Lisa knew? For example, just the highlights:


    1) My Mom was murdered when I was four when a demon pinned her to the ceiling and immolated her.


    2) The demon killed Mom because she got in the way when she interupted him feeding demon blood to my 6-month old baby brother,to whomMom had semi wittingly allowed the demon access. I say semi-wittingly because as a hunter she had to know a demon deal would come back to bite you in the a$$--no exceptions.


    3) Since the age of fourI've been with my Dad on the quest to avenge Mom's death.


    4) Monsters are real, ghosts are real, demons are real,I hunt them, I save people, its the family business.


    5) My baby brother ( the one who was fed the demon blood) was part of a special demonic project to prepare the way for the return of Lucifer. A contest of sorts was set up to see which demon blood drinking child would become Lucifer's General and ultimate vessel.


    6) Despite being the odds on favorite, my brother was killed during the contest. I sold my soul to the get him back.


    7) We caught up with the Demon and I finally killed him, but not before a Hellsgate was breached releasing hordes of demons on an unsuspecting world. We reconnected shortly after that.


    I went to Hell for forty years (hell-time) I was tortured for thirty years, The last ten years I became the torturer. I still have issues.


    9) After forty years I was lifted from perdition by an angel of the Lord. Yes, angels are real too. Most angels are dicks. I was told I had been raised to do some special work for the Lord.


    10) On returning, my relationship with my brother declined percipitously--he had taken up with a demon, lost all respect for me as a man. I could go on but why bother?


    11. I learned from the angels that demons were trying to break the 66 seals of Revealation and bring on the Apocalypse. I learned I was destined to stop them. I subsequently learned my decision to torture others in Hell was the first seal. The guilt was almost unbearable. We fought on valiently, but the seals kept breaking and my brothers behavior became increasingly disturbing.


    12. In an odd twist of fate, I learned the angels were not trying to stop the Apocalypse, but to bring it on and win it. I was to be the vessel for the Archangel Michael and would do battle with Lucifer in the vessel of my brother. Unfortunately the battleground was Earth and we were all to be just collateral damage. Needless to say, we pursued other options.


    13) My brother in his misguided efforts to stop the Apocalyse actually brought it on. I was there when Lucifer rose from his cage to claim the world as his ominion and my brother as his vessel. It was awful.


    14) God saved us by transporting us onto a passing airplane and out of Lucifer's clutches.


    15)I had a really rough year trying to reverse the Apocalypse, save the world, and rebuild the relationship with my brother. Just want you to know I was thinking of you all the while.


    16) We were desparate, it all came down to a crazy plan to let Lucifer take control of my brother, who would then wrest control away long enough to hurl himself and Lucifer back into his cage. Despite initial miscalculations, the plan ultimately worked. The Apocalypse has been averted but my brother is now trapped in a cage in Hell wiith Lucifer and Michael thrown in for good measure. I miss him terribly.


    17) I came to you to start a new life. The world is still full of monsters, demons, angry angels, and believe you me I've made enemies of them all. I don't know what the future holds and I'm pretty messed up inside, but whaddaya say???



    Sooooo, how much of the truth do you think Lisa knew? How much did she believe? How much could her tiny little brain process? And if she knew even 10% why did she let Dean in? Why would she let Dean near her child?

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [29]Mar 3, 2011
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    Well, given the events of "The Kids Are Alright" and what she saw I would think there wouldn't be much you couldn't beleave after that. Still, I can't imagine Dean wanting to burdern her with ALL that so he probably only told her what he had to tell her to get by and no more.

    The Lisa/Ben two headed monster? Now THERE'S a hunt.
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    tvtome_xena321

    [30]Mar 5, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    My issue with Lisa was that she was so out of left feild when they first showed her (and the idea that one of Dean's exs would just happen to be in the middle of a hunt is just silly), then after that she showed up in his dreams becasue their first plan fell through (making her filler), then the part where she shows up at the end of last season seemed so forced and unnatural just to set up this whole crazy idea that he should settle down with.

    The whole thing was poorly executed and planed and needs to be swept under the rug and forgotten as quickly as possible.

    Thankfully, this last appearance seemed very much like a final good bye so maybe that will be that.


    Yeah I agree with most of your points, and I did feel it was out of the blue in season 5, it kinda felt like a plot-device used like the series was ending, or thats how I felt, before we knew season 6 was a go. Hopefully it is the last we've seen of her, If they ever want to do a proper relationship on the show, I want it to be with a female hunter, but thats just me.
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    libra113

    [31]Mar 5, 2011
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    Yeah it was like a quickie way to tie up Dean's ending and give him somewhere to go if Sam wasn't in the picture anymore. Still, I feel that it's kinda disrepectful to his character just to toss him with some chick just to given him an ending.

    If they're going to do an ending where Dean settles down and 'retires' from the life (which is hard enough to beleave given how fast he jumped back in during "Exile on Main Street" when he saw signs of what he thought was a monster to hunt) the it needs to be done way more naturally than they handled it.

    This is something where the groundwork has to be laid in advanced by introducing the woman and working up to a romance between then and finally a choice to settle down. Just bringing in anyone then having them show up a couple of times then he shows up on her doorstep in the middle of the night and she takes him in is just silly.

    Frankly, if they really want to end the series with Dean retiring and Sam either carrying on or dying or whatever it's not really neccisary to have him settle down with a woman right out of the gate.

    I would think he want some time to build a life for himself not dependant on anyone else after years of building his life around hunting and/or his little brother I would think he would want to take some me time and be on his own for a bit.

    Maybe, get a small apartment somewhere, get a job working on classic cars or something and kind of ease into civlian life a bit before starting anything too serious.

    Oh and the whole instant family just add dad (or in this case Dean) is a cheat to shortcut a process that should take time.

    Personally I would end it with Sam going off on his own to continuing fighting evil and Dean building a life for himself alone, sometimes helping out and sometimes just being a normal guy... then maybe down the road he meets someone new and build something clean, untainted by his past.
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    Beecharm3r2

    [32]Mar 6, 2011
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    I liked Layla (Julie Benz) but yeah, unless she was miraculously cured that probably wouldn't go over well, what with her being terminally ill and all. I did like Layla's character though and you can see Dean really cares for her. It wasn't just sexual and even though it was one episode, I got the feeling that they could be cute together.

    And the other possible person...I know she's imaginary, but Carmen. I think a big part of that was that I felt like they had chemistry, and yeah we got to see his dream girl was intelligent & had a heart (hence the job as a nurse), and it looked like they had fun. If anyone says she can't be a possibility because she's not 'real' I say this...you're wrong! :0) Seriously though, it's Supernatural, anything's possible. Maybe...just maybe Carmen does exist and Dean doesn't know it? Or maybe he ends up falling in love with someone who is remarkably like her? But I think what would work best for Dean would be someone new. A woman we may not see constantly but get little hints that Dean's happen when he talks to her, thinks about her...actually is HOPEFUL for once in his life and doesn't think that life sucks (when he's with her). A girl that has a personality, stands up to someone (or a demon) if they're hurting someone (even if they're not 'good' at it, I'd want her to have a backbone). Someone of QUALITY....oh and yeah, not someone stepford-wife type. I think a lot of people watching the show could respect it if Dean had a girl like this.
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    basenji529

    [33]Mar 7, 2011
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    A lot of the Lisa hate comes from the fact that she's Dean's girlfriend. Nothing more. Yaoi fangirls.

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    libra113

    [34]Mar 7, 2011
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    Beecharm3r2 wrote:
    I liked Layla (Julie Benz) but yeah, unless she was miraculously cured that probably wouldn't go over well, what with her being terminally ill and all. I did like Layla's character though and you can see Dean really cares for her. It wasn't just sexual and even though it was one episode, I got the feeling that they could be cute together.

    And the other possible person...I know she's imaginary, but Carmen. I think a big part of that was that I felt like they had chemistry, and yeah we got to see his dream girl was intelligent & had a heart (hence the job as a nurse), and it looked like they had fun. If anyone says she can't be a possibility because she's not 'real' I say this...you're wrong! :0) Seriously though, it's Supernatural, anything's possible. Maybe...just maybe Carmen does exist and Dean doesn't know it? Or maybe he ends up falling in love with someone who is remarkably like her? But I think what would work best for Dean would be someone new. A woman we may not see constantly but get little hints that Dean's happen when he talks to her, thinks about her...actually is HOPEFUL for once in his life and doesn't think that life sucks (when he's with her). A girl that has a personality, stands up to someone (or a demon) if they're hurting someone (even if they're not 'good' at it, I'd want her to have a backbone). Someone of QUALITY....oh and yeah, not someone stepford-wife type. I think a lot of people watching the show could respect it if Dean had a girl like this.
    Well, maybe not her exactly but maybe the same actress playing someone LIKE her would work. Kinda of like she's the reality of his dream.

    Layla would be good but then there's the whole: WHO healed her, HOW and WHY aspect that might make him unsure if he could trust her or not but then that might be an intresting additional element to add to spice things up.
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    libra113

    [35]Mar 7, 2011
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    basenji529 wrote:

    A lot of the Lisa hate comes from the fact that she's Dean's girlfriend. Nothing more. Yaoi fangirls.

    I don't know what a 'Yaoi' is (nor do I really care) but I'm not a girl, fan or otherwise.

    My issue with Lisa is (and always has been) that she's bad story telling from top to bottom.

    All Dean talked about before seeing Ben was the sex and then suddenly she has a kid and it's not just sex it's love. Doesn't work that way.

    Not to mention the stupidity of the whole story and the idea that one his ex's would just happen to be in the middle of a hunt just when he decides to look her up after so many years. The whole timing is WAY too convient to be real.

    In fact nothing about Lisa (or even Ben for that matter) is even remotely beleavable or real, it all sounds way too fake to be taken seriously.
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    basenji529

    [36]Mar 8, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    basenji529 wrote:


    A lot of the Lisa hate comes from the fact that she's Dean's girlfriend. Nothing more. Yaoi fangirls.


    I don't know what a 'Yaoi' is (nor do I really care) but I'm not a girl, fan or otherwise.


    You're gay right? Um, yaoi is...girls that like to watch guys with guys. The term comes from yama nashi, ochi nashi, imi nashi, "no climax, no purpose, no meaning". But there's a joke that it actually comes from "Yamete! Oshiri ga itai!" Most yaoi fans hate...pretty much all female characters who show any interest in their favorite two guys. Mind, heterosexual shippers do the exact same thing. Shipping makes people mean.


    libra113 wrote:
    My issue with Lisa is (and always has been) that she's bad story telling from top to bottom. All Dean talked about before seeing Ben was the sex and then suddenly she has a kid and it's not just sex it's love. Doesn't work that way. Not to mention the stupidity of the whole story and the idea that one his ex's would just happen to be in the middle of a hunt just when he decides to look her up after so many years. The whole timing is WAY too convient to be real. In fact nothing about Lisa (or even Ben for that matter) is even remotely beleavable or real, it all sounds way too fake to be taken seriously.


    There is the whole Babies Make Everything Better problem. Really? I should hope nobody seriously believes a screwed-up relationship (i.e., the only kind Dean can really have, given his profession) could be fixed with a kid.

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    libra113

    [37]Mar 8, 2011
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    To me the biggest issue is really the highly improbable notion that Dean would happen to go look her up just at the point she moves into Changling central.

    I mean IF it was a trap for Dean or something then yeah but the sheer chance of it was totally stupid.

    From there it was a sheer drop downward and has hardly worked it's way (there were a couple of times she seemed almost like a real person instead of a walking plot device but thoes times, sadly, were few and far between).
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    basenji529

    [38]Mar 9, 2011
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    Yeah, it's kinda weird to have Dean come to town at the same time his new girlfriend moves in.


    That episode also had the weirdness of "a mom can't understand boys". I don't know how true that is; I will say that raising a boy is the closest a woman will come to understanding men (and raising a girl is the closest a man will come to understanding women).


    Though I do love that the writers named the son Ben, which means "son" in Hebrew.

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    libra113

    [39]Mar 9, 2011
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    basenji529 wrote:

    Yeah, it's kinda weird to have Dean come to town at the same time his new girlfriend moves in.


    That episode also had the weirdness of "a mom can't understand boys". I don't know how true that is; I will say that raising a boy is the closest a woman will come to understanding men (and raising a girl is the closest a man will come to understanding women).


    Though I do love that the writers named the son Ben, which means "son" in Hebrew.

    There were certainly less ham handed ways they could have introduced the whole Lisa/Ben thing and they could have not laid the Ben is just like Dean thing on so thick (a lot of the traits they had Ben share with Dean are not genetic so it was kinda silly). That was bad enough but then to compound the error by revisiting the situation only made matters worse.
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    mynameisjohnas

    [40]Mar 10, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    jack756 wrote:


    your exactly right.i hate lisa b/c she clearly not right for dean i can think of 2 woman right now that he could have started a life with dean and it be a match but the writers didnt do it.



    Actually- and I mentioned this in another thread but I'll mention it again- it was established in season 3 (both from "The Kids are Alright" and "Dream a Little Dream of Me") that Dean had more feelings for Lisa than he did for any of the women he was ever with before. If that wasn't the case I highly doubt she would have been the one person Dean went to say goodbye to when he thought he was going to say yes to Michael at the end of the last season.


    As to the idea of her character not having a place after season 5, I'm curious as to how one comes to that conclusion. I mean, I agree that Dean and Lisa couldn't stay together given Sam's return, Dean's past and the overall story arch of this season, but I don't quite understand why that means both characters wouldn't at least make the attempt that they did and have in this season to keep that connection. In the end love is love and if there is one thing this show has tried to say about it it's that it bonds people in ways very few other things can. I don't find it illogical that two character like Lisa and Dean would act any differently than any other two good people in love with each other would in such a situation. Likewise, I have a feeling that despite all the complaining that has been done about Lisa and Ben, had they been replaced Cassie or Jo or Anna, everyone would be complaining about them instead. After all, up until Jo's death most people seemed to hate her too. Now that she's dead everyone's fine with her.


    Let me be clear- when it comes down to it, I have no problem with people having opinions on Cindy Sampson's acting skills or her characters place in the storyline (provided that if they're going to voice criticism they can take constructive disagreement in the same way) but what I can't wrap my head around is the hate on a lot of SPN fans have for women that form a connection to one brother or another and last for more than a few episodes. I don't know...my whole take on it is that the brothers are fictional characters and having real people become so obsessed with them to the point of being protective is a little...creepy to me. I mean, I understand caring for the characters because that's what good story writing does- it makes you care for someone or something- but caring to the point where one can influence the trajectory of said character's happiness (and make no mistake, we all know the writers/producers of SPN listen to the fans for better or worse) in a negative way seems counter-intuitive to me. In the end all it does is add to the stereotype that most SPN fans are just fan girls (see the "Fringe vs SPN ratings" article comments on this site) which anyone who frequents this and other message boards knows is not true given the different discussions that go on.


    Just something to think about.



    Well in her first appearace she was little more than a plot device to get Sam and Dean to the town and to do that whole BS with her kid (which was just horrible and totally unrealistic in the extream). The only reason she was in Dean's dream was becasue the original plan (a guest shot by Jason Vorhees) fell through and they needed something so they cobbled it together. Lisa is so unlike any woman we've seen Dean have feelings for (or intrest in) over the years and so door mat like that it's not even funny. Any REAL woman (not to mention loving mother) wouldn't want their kid within a mile of someone who hunts monsters and has major enemies on his tail 24/7 and even after the near miss in "Exile on Main Street" she STILL wants him around. The only good thing is that after he shoved her kid into a wall she finally grew a backbone and put her foot down. Still, even in "Exile" when she and Dean were talking at Bobby's it was clear they both knew what they were doing was a sham and that they ony stayed together for convience and (in Dean's case) out of a sense of obligation.


    Lol, to be honest I'm not really sure why I'm bothering to write this since I'm sure what I post beneath is going to do nothing to change your mind. Most of what you've said I already addressed in my second post which you seem to have ignored but I'll address a few other arguments you brought up.


    Before I do that though, the only thing I'll give you as somewhat logical out the 12 different posts you made (reiterating the same points each time) was that there certainly is an element of danger to Lisa and Ben in being near Dean since, as we've seen in just about every season previous, monsters like to get back at hunters by going after their loved ones. However, both Lisa and Dean have admitted this in "Two and Half Men"and when it comes down to it, the damage was already been done when they were trying to figure out if they were going to stay together in the first two episodes of season 6. After all, John distancing himself from the Milligan's didn't save them from being eaten by Ghouls because the second Adam was born his family was tied to John whether they wantedto beor not. Techincally one could use Adam and his mother's fates to argue Lisa and Ben are safer with Dean around every once in a while than never at all.


    To the rest of your arguments I completely disagree.


    First, to the idea that Dean only showed up in TKAA to see Lisa because she was a great lay, it's worth considering that the drive him and Sam had to make to find her was around 9 hours (Lincoln, NB to Cicero, Il is around 550 miles on average) and that even if Dean had serious feelings for her there was no way he was going to spill his guts to Sam about it considering that Dean always made fun of of guys being too womanish with their feelings. I would argue that driving 9 hours to see someone suggests a little more than just a need to see someone who was a good in the sack. Even if he didn't love Lisa at the point (which there's really no way you can prove) there's nothing saying that, after his re-introduction to her and his experiance meeting/saving Ben, that he didn't begin to fall in love with her. With regards to episode being a throw away episode, not that it matters in the grand scheme of this argument, but I'm not really sure how one could argue it was anymore throw away than the episode Cassie came from. I mean really- a killer ghost truck? Please.


    Secondly, in reference to "DALDOM", I fail to find any sense in the idea that the writers decided to replace an iconic horror figure like Jason V with a character who had only appeared once before in the show. I'm not saying they weren't planning to have a tribute to the character of J.V in the episode, but simply that the idea of having Lisa replace him seems to have little merit. If they couldn't get the rights to J.V's character why not replace him with Freddy or any other of a dozen different horror figures that could have been paid homage to? The point of the very scene, and indeed a good portion of Dean's dream sequence, was to show some the deepest and darkest thoughts that existed in his head which just so happened to include who he really would have liked to have ended up with were his life not all about hunting. And even if they did decide to replace J.V with one of Dean's ex's, the fact of he matter is the writers chose Lisa rather than Cassie or who ever else they could have pulled out of the bag for the scene.



    Next, you didn't actually give any reasoning as to why it didn't make sense for Dean to have returned to say goodbye to Lisa in "99 Problems" or why he decided to return to her at the very end of the season. You claim that it was lazy and poorly done but fail to address any of the arguments previously made about the logic behind his return to her. Could they have used Cassie or created a relationship with a new character at the beggining of season 5? Of course, there are always different avenues writers could and can take when it comes to character developments, but I would posit that there was be no reason forsuch actionsgiven that they already introduced characters to fufill that need through Lisa and Ben. Likewise, on the subject of laziness, I reject the notion that Lisa and Ben were "instant family. I would accept your agrument that it was out of left feild if they had just introduced Lisa and Ben a few episodes earlier, but they didn't. Both characters were introduced "years earlier" which, imo, takes away any argument you could have about them being a quick fix. They were both established, just as much as any of Dean's other relationships anyways, which gave the writers all the ammothey needed to pull her
    and Ben back in.


    From there, the idea that Dean would have been better matched with a hunter ignores the reality that, as has been noted many times before,
    one of the reasons both characters came together is that they both represented to eachother what they other never seemed to be able grasp from others. For Lisa, Dean represents this mature, strong, mysterious, good looking guy who she not only loved, but also cared about her son. For Dean, Lisa represents the life he and his brother always wanted but could never have, and probably never will, due to the way theywere brought up as hunters. As I said, there is no doubt that the relationship probably never could and never will work out- no one is arguing that it will- but that doesn't mean it's illogical for them to try. I'm not even saying that Dean would be poorly matched with hunter, or that he eventually won't eventually end up with one, but just that it there is nothing illogical about the two of them having feelings for eachother or trying to make a life for themselves.


    With regards to their choice to stay together in "Exile" being a "sham" and "convienient" I would note, as I already have, that there is no doubt they knew they probably weren't going to work given Sam's return- again, no one is arguing they could- but being in love they made the understandable choice to try and make it work. And of course Dean feels an obligation to Ben- he the spitting image of himself and if he doesn't try to be invloved in his life, as Dean admitted in Two and Half Men, he's essentially doing what John did to him. That in of itself, however, should not and does not negate any feelings he currently has for Lisa given all of thereasons argued above. Overall, your idea that it could both be a sham and convenient at the same time is actually oxymoronic since staying together in a relationship that was a sham would be anything but convenient for either parties. In the end their relationship might not be interesting to an audience due to the lack of action it provides to the overall story, but from a philoshopical standpoint it's not only interesting, but honest.


    Then there's the argument you made about how it should have been impossible for Dean to have lived a normal life to which I would simply
    state that if you think he did you probably weren't paying attention to the first two episodes of season 6 very well. Dean admitted to Lisa thatmost of the time he was a wreck what with his drinking to get over the fact that Sam was gone and his constant nightmares. Likewise,
    since we didn't follow Dean during his year with Lisa how do we know he didn't try to get Sam out? I too find it rather unlikely he would have been sitting on his ass crying to himself about the fact rather than trying to do something about it.


    Lastly, for the insinuation that Lisa's a doormat- all I can really say is...really? Has Dean ever physically abused her? Has he ever verbally derided her? Has he cheated on her since they've been together? Has he ever stolen from her? The only thing he ever did that was dangerous to them was when he returned to them as a vampire and threw Ben into a wall accidently and as you said, Lisa put her foot down and bailed after the fact. Hell, she even admitted to herself that Dean didn't entirely want to be with her and Ben given Sam's return and told Dean he should go be with Sam and that they would wait for him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9JzqAKfKlI&feature=related ).If that's not an example of having some courage and respect for ones self I'm not sure what is.


    In the end the way I see it is that if they had wanted Cassie or anyone else they would have used her in the sceneswe've already discussed instead of Lisa. None of the the actresses who played Dean's ex's or past attractions were exactly busy at the time the episodes were being shot but the fact of the matter is the writers chose Lisa. I'm not sayng there's anything wrong with wishing they had chosen someone else or that they had done things differently since as both audience and fans that's what's expected. But I do take issue with this unending whining
    that seems to persist that the writers could have/should have done better, or that they were lazy, when there are plenty of arguments that can be made to back up their decision. To me Libra, I would akin it to you having to read people complain again and again that they want to SPN to be like it was back in seasons 1,2 and 3. My adivce, as you've said to others on the latter issue, is to get over it. You have a different opinion than the writers on a certain issue. So be it. I have different opinions with them on lots of different issues but it's not the end of the world and I'm certainly not going to make a lake out of a puddle. Well, I could, but it wouldn't exactly do me much good.

    Edited on 03/10/2011 1:57pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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