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If Michael ever gets out of the cage

  • Avatar of gatoraderising

    gatoraderising

    [41]Mar 29, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Angel's are the only one's that can resurrect people at will. All Demon's need to make a deal with someone no matter how powerful they are.

    That's way no matter how powerful Crowley had become he would have still need to make a deal with someone to bring Sam and Samuel back. The question is who was that person.
    Well, Crowley was also adept at bending the rules (like when he tossed Bobby's leg into his deal without being asked) so he may have tacted it on to some random person's deal without even telling them.


    I could see Crowley tacting it on to someone else deal with them not knowing. I kinda like that idea or Crowley having some sercet benifactor.

    I kinda alway's thought Crowley threw Bobby's leg into his deal because it give them a better shot at stopping Lucifer and his plan's.
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    gatoraderising

    [42]Mar 29, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Angel's are the only one's that can resurrect people at will. All Demon's need to make a deal with someone no matter how powerful they are.

    That's way no matter how powerful Crowley had become he would have still need to make a deal with someone to bring Sam and Samuel back. The question is who was that person.


    Lilith told Sam in NRFW that if he want to bargain he have to give her something she wants not needs so I think demons are just cynical about resurrecting people and want something in return not necessarily need it


    Well Sam wanted to make a deal to save Dean with Lilith. They was no way she was ever going to let Dean out of his deal no matter what Sam offered her. Lilith needed Dean in Hell to break the first seal. So really that has nothing to do with resurrecting people.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [43]Mar 29, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Angel's are the only one's that can resurrect people at will. All Demon's need to make a deal with someone no matter how powerful they are. That's way no matter how powerful Crowley had become he would have still need to make a deal with someone to bring Sam and Samuel back. The question is who was that person.
    Lilith told Sam in NRFW that if he want to bargain he have to give her something she wants not needs so I think demons are just cynical about resurrecting people and want something in return not necessarily need it
    Well Sam wanted to make a deal to save Dean with Lilith. They was no way she was ever going to let Dean out of his deal no matter what Sam offered her. Lilith needed Dean in Hell to break the first seal. So really that has nothing to do with resurrecting people.
    The writers change previous established canon facts all the time and do retcons up until seaon 6 the only way to kill a demon was with demon blood, the knife , or colt and now you can kill it by burning it's bones so I'm sure Crowley resurrecting people at will is another one of those retcons

    Edited on 03/29/2011 10:12am
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    basenji529

    [44]Mar 29, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    It would be a hard sell but if handled like they've handled other hard sells it would be intresting and much like having Micheal use him as a backup vessle it makes "Jumping the Shark" even more significant that it originally seemed to be. Intrestingly, at the time the episode didn't seem like much but with the aforementioned Micheal twist and then later the revelation that John and Mary only hooked up becasue of a Cupid it all kinda makes more sense that he would have an illigimate child floating around.


    Or it could be faux symbolism. Did you know gods of death love apples? (Death Note) The apple doesn't have the obvious religious symbolism, though.


    I still consider Adam a likely case of Chekhov's gun. It is highly unlikely they would introduce a new brother without some symbolism.

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    libra113

    [45]Mar 29, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Angel's are the only one's that can resurrect people at will. All Demon's need to make a deal with someone no matter how powerful they are.

    That's way no matter how powerful Crowley had become he would have still need to make a deal with someone to bring Sam and Samuel back. The question is who was that person.
    Well, Crowley was also adept at bending the rules (like when he tossed Bobby's leg into his deal without being asked) so he may have tacted it on to some random person's deal without even telling them.


    I could see Crowley tacting it on to someone else deal with them not knowing. I kinda like that idea or Crowley having some sercet benifactor.

    I kinda alway's thought Crowley threw Bobby's leg into his deal because it give them a better shot at stopping Lucifer and his plan's.
    That too but the very fact that he COULD just throw the legs in shows that the rules are bendable in the right hands.

    In fact I SEEM to recall there being a slight mention that Yellow Eyes possessing Tessa to bring back Dean was a bit of a rule bend. I know she seemed pretty suprised that a demon would do that, or COULD do that.
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    libra113

    [46]Mar 29, 2011
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    basenji529 wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    It would be a hard sell but if handled like they've handled other hard sells it would be intresting and much like having Micheal use him as a backup vessle it makes "Jumping the Shark" even more significant that it originally seemed to be. Intrestingly, at the time the episode didn't seem like much but with the aforementioned Micheal twist and then later the revelation that John and Mary only hooked up becasue of a Cupid it all kinda makes more sense that he would have an illigimate child floating around.


    Or it could be faux symbolism. Did you know gods of death love apples? (Death Note) The apple doesn't have the obvious religious symbolism, though.


    I still consider Adam a likely case of Chekhov's gun. It is highly unlikely they would introduce a new brother without some symbolism.

    Well, I don't know what all that is about but since we're throwing trivia: I'm sure you know that the forbidden fruit was only identified as an apple in the middle ages. Before that it wasn't named but given the location and time the story was written it was likely a fig. In fact there's no way the original writers of the Bible could have ever seen an apple, much less has a clue what it was. That's just one of the many misconceptions about the Bible and the stories within that have come about through all the translations and outside sources.
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    gatoraderising

    [47]Apr 1, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Angel's are the only one's that can resurrect people at will. All Demon's need to make a deal with someone no matter how powerful they are.

    That's way no matter how powerful Crowley had become he would have still need to make a deal with someone to bring Sam and Samuel back. The question is who was that person.
    Well, Crowley was also adept at bending the rules (like when he tossed Bobby's leg into his deal without being asked) so he may have tacted it on to some random person's deal without even telling them.


    I could see Crowley tacting it on to someone else deal with them not knowing. I kinda like that idea or Crowley having some sercet benifactor.

    I kinda alway's thought Crowley threw Bobby's leg into his deal because it give them a better shot at stopping Lucifer and his plan's.
    That too but the very fact that he COULD just throw the legs in shows that the rules are bendable in the right hands.

    In fact I SEEM to recall there being a slight mention that Yellow Eyes possessing Tessa to bring back Dean was a bit of a rule bend. I know she seemed pretty suprised that a demon would do that, or COULD do that.


    Well there's a diffence between bending the rules and breaking the rule's. I just think Crowely had to make a deal with someone to bring Sam and Grandpa back. I could go with him adding it to someone else's deal but then again tacting on Bobby's leg's to his deal and bringing Sam back from Lucifer cage just same's differnt to me some how.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [48]Apr 1, 2011
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    Yeah it IS diffrent but the point is that he put it on Bobby's deal without even telling him or anything so he could just as easily have stuck on some random stranger's deal without telling them either. That or he told them but was really vauge about it in such a way that they didn't know what it was all about.
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    gatoraderising

    [49]Apr 4, 2011
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    Who know's if Crowley really did bring Sam back. I still don't know if he had the "juice" to pull Sam out of the cage on has own, even though he was king of hell.
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    kanniballl

    [50]Apr 4, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    What I didn't like about this season is that it took 66 seals and whatnot to break Lucifer out, while it took Crowley being King of Hell to burst Sam out. I know people have speculations that Sam's soul is different than Lucifer's, but I just don't buy that, it seems illogical to me. Apparently, Cage changes according to what story demands. Or at least to me.


    I believe the cage was made specifically for Lucifer, or at least certain types of things like angels.


    Therefore getting a human soul out of there might be an easier thing.


    For example: a regular prison cell is made to keep people inside.
    But a small kitten might be able to fit through the bars unharmed with enough coaxing.



    Alternatively, the seals were broken. It's possible the cage isn't as tough as it used to be.

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    libra113

    [51]Apr 4, 2011
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    Well, that first part is what I've said all along. The cage was made to hold Lucifer, which means it's probably geared to hold archangles and anything else can come and go at will (pretty much).

    I think a lot of people are still getting caught up thinking of it a literal cage with metal bars and all that when likely the term cage is just a metaphor something along the lines of, for example, a ring of holy fire or something like the angel version of a devil's trap for a demon.

    In which case getting Sam's body out and bringing it back to Earth wouldn't be so hard (espcially for the king of Hell) but getting his soul out was possibly more difficult (or perhaps Lucifer and Micheal were more focused on that espeically once his body was gone).

    Either that or Crowley just didn't WANT to get Sam's soul out becasue it served his purposes better to have a cold and souless Sam around than a mentally wrecked basket case.
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    basenji529

    [52]Apr 4, 2011
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    One you might be interested in:


    μαλακοι (original)


    effeminate (KJV)


    homosexuals (Living Bible)


    Μαλακος, by the way, means "soft". That's where we get the word osteomalacia (soft bones caused by a vitamin deficiency). It metaphorically means people "weakened" by the easy life; the aversion of this weakening effect is the origin of our term spartan. One could see living the soft life as effeminate, if one discounted all the jobs a woman did around the house. The change toward homosexuals has to do with pop psychology, which saw homosexuality, yes, even as a "top", as an inversion of gender roles.

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    dpebbleson

    [53]Apr 4, 2011
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    kanniballl wrote:

    dpebbleson wrote:
    What I didn't like about this season is that it took 66 seals and whatnot to break Lucifer out, while it took Crowley being King of Hell to burst Sam out. I know people have speculations that Sam's soul is different than Lucifer's, but I just don't buy that, it seems illogical to me. Apparently, Cage changes according to what story demands. Or at least to me.


    I believe the cage was made specifically for Lucifer, or at least certain types of things like angels.


    Therefore getting a human soul out of there might be an easier thing.


    For example: a regular prison cell is made to keep people inside.
    But a small kitten might be able to fit through the bars unharmed with enough coaxing.



    Alternatively, the seals were broken. It's possible the cage isn't as tough as it used to be.



    Yeah, could be, but why didn't we learn more on 'why' and 'how' he got released.

    An angel can fit into a human body...

    If the seals were broken, than that's the deal for Lucifer as well.

    We don't really know how or of what the cell is made, so speculating about bars isn't gonna do much. What I saw was some black-holeish stuff, that transports it's captive into some other dimension. It looks infinitely deep, and remote, the very stars can be seen in the depths.

    I wonder if the soul could just get out and run away even if it could 'slip between the bars'.

    I like the speculations, of course, but they don't convince me. Basically how Sam got out was Deus ex Machina - Crowley being the Deus part.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [54]Apr 4, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    kanniballl wrote:

    dpebbleson wrote:
    What I didn't like about this season is that it took 66 seals and whatnot to break Lucifer out, while it took Crowley being King of Hell to burst Sam out. I know people have speculations that Sam's soul is different than Lucifer's, but I just don't buy that, it seems illogical to me. Apparently, Cage changes according to what story demands. Or at least to me.


    I believe the cage was made specifically for Lucifer, or at least certain types of things like angels.


    Therefore getting a human soul out of there might be an easier thing.


    For example: a regular prison cell is made to keep people inside.
    But a small kitten might be able to fit through the bars unharmed with enough coaxing.



    Alternatively, the seals were broken. It's possible the cage isn't as tough as it used to be.



    Yeah, could be, but why didn't we learn more on 'why' and 'how' he got released.

    An angel can fit into a human body...

    If the seals were broken, than that's the deal for Lucifer as well.

    We don't really know how or of what the cell is made, so speculating about bars isn't gonna do much. What I saw was some black-holeish stuff, that transports it's captive into some other dimension. It looks infinitely deep, and remote, the very stars can be seen in the depths.

    I wonder if the soul could just get out and run away even if it could 'slip between the bars'.

    I like the speculations, of course, but they don't convince me. Basically how Sam got out was Deus ex Machina - Crowley being the Deus part.
    So basically you've made up your mind and nothing is going to change it no matter what?

    Seems pretty clear to me. The cage is an archangel cage, anything that's not archangel cannot be held by it so Sam's body was easy to scoop out.

    Either Crowley decided to leave his soul behind because THAT was what Lucifer and Micheal were focusing on, or (perhaps more likely) it wouldn't have surved his needs for Sam to have it (for good or for ill).

    I really don't see the hang up here except for this idea that the cage is a physical cage and nothing cannot be held by it, which seems unlikely.

    Why would anyone make a cage for an archangel but also proof it against everything? It's not like a demon getting in would hurt anything they couldn't take Lucifer back out again so it would be pointless to make it so broadly powerful.

    This really doesn't change anything or contradict anything it only adds a new perspective and that is what shows are supposed to do otherwise they stagnate and die.

    If you're going to say they can't add new elements to their own universe because it doesn't fit your intial interpitation of things then that's unfairly hamstringing the writer's creativity.

    Now if they had said all along the cage was absolute and that nothing could get in or out without breaking the seals (like a blackhole or something) THEN had Sam come back you would have a point but that's not what happened.
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    dpebbleson

    [55]Apr 5, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    kanniballl wrote:

    dpebbleson wrote:
    What I didn't like about this season is that it took 66 seals and whatnot to break Lucifer out, while it took Crowley being King of Hell to burst Sam out. I know people have speculations that Sam's soul is different than Lucifer's, but I just don't buy that, it seems illogical to me. Apparently, Cage changes according to what story demands. Or at least to me.


    I believe the cage was made specifically for Lucifer, or at least certain types of things like angels.


    Therefore getting a human soul out of there might be an easier thing.


    For example: a regular prison cell is made to keep people inside.
    But a small kitten might be able to fit through the bars unharmed with enough coaxing.



    Alternatively, the seals were broken. It's possible the cage isn't as tough as it used to be.



    Yeah, could be, but why didn't we learn more on 'why' and 'how' he got released.

    An angel can fit into a human body...

    If the seals were broken, than that's the deal for Lucifer as well.

    We don't really know how or of what the cell is made, so speculating about bars isn't gonna do much. What I saw was some black-holeish stuff, that transports it's captive into some other dimension. It looks infinitely deep, and remote, the very stars can be seen in the depths.

    I wonder if the soul could just get out and run away even if it could 'slip between the bars'.

    I like the speculations, of course, but they don't convince me. Basically how Sam got out was Deus ex Machina - Crowley being the Deus part.
    So basically you've made up your mind and nothing is going to change it no matter what?

    Seems pretty clear to me. The cage is an archangel cage, anything that's not archangel cannot be held by it so Sam's body was easy to scoop out.

    Either Crowley decided to leave his soul behind because THAT was what Lucifer and Micheal were focusing on, or (perhaps more likely) it wouldn't have surved his needs for Sam to have it (for good or for ill).

    I really don't see the hang up here except for this idea that the cage is a physical cage and nothing cannot be held by it, which seems unlikely.

    Why would anyone make a cage for an archangel but also proof it against everything? It's not like a demon getting in would hurt anything they couldn't take Lucifer back out again so it would be pointless to make it so broadly powerful.

    This really doesn't change anything or contradict anything it only adds a new perspective and that is what shows are supposed to do otherwise they stagnate and die.

    If you're going to say they can't add new elements to their own universe because it doesn't fit your intial interpitation of things then that's unfairly hamstringing the writer's creativity.

    Now if they had said all along the cage was absolute and that nothing could get in or out without breaking the seals (like a blackhole or something) THEN had Sam come back you would have a point but that's not what happened.


    I'm not saying nothing can change my mind, I'm saying your arguments don't convince me, that's all.

    Saying it's an archangel cage sounds like saying that Prison A was made for the greatest criminals with top security levels, but lesser criminals can somehow slip through the bars. I don't see logic in that.

    If a demon could get into that cage, then they most certainly would. Most demons, however, were unsure if Lucifer really existed. Many lost faith. Azazel had to slaughter nuns just to get Lucifer 'whisper through the crack'. Lilith was 'neck deep in the pit', and couldn't get out without Devil's Gate being opened.

    And all it takes Sam to get out is for Crowley to become King of Hell! So what if he is king of hell? What kind of explanation is that? Since when does status in Hell bring power. As far as I know established canon is that the more you spend down there, the more twisted and powerful you get. Lilith is the oldest, therefore the most powerful.

    They needn't have said that the cage was absolute, it was almost implied in the entire seasons 3 & 4. To open the first seal you have to take a righteous man to hell and break him. Then you've got to break 66 out of 666 (or so) seals to weaken it. Then you've got to kill Lilith, the first demon, to finally unlock it. All this makes it look like a tough business. Compare with the easiness of Crowley clicking his fingers and just bringing Sam out.

    I'm obviously talking about easy solutions and how they pale in comparison to two seasons of effort.

    Yes, indeed nowhere it was said that it is absolute. But nowhere it is said that it isn't absolute. Therefore, I don't say your opinion isn't valid, it just isn't more valid than mine.

    If you, however, point out to some, even vaguest, element, quote, saying, whatever, that points out that the Cage was made for archangels only, I will change my opinion. I'm not that stubborn.

    But to be honest, even if they did it in the show, I'd just consider it an easy solution as well.
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    gatoraderising

    [56]Apr 5, 2011
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    I don't remember them ever saying the cage was made just for Archangel's. I alway's kinda thought that once something went into the cage it was there for good and the only way to get something out was breaking the seal's. Beside's Death getting Sam's soul out of course, but he on a whole other level then Crowley.

    I remember Cas talking to Dean in season 4 and Cas saying that Archangel's are Heavens must powerful weapons that they are absolute. So wouldn't common sense say that if Archangel's are absolute wouldn't the cage holding Archangel's be absolute too. Definition of absolute free from restriction, limitation, or exception..
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    dpebbleson

    [57]Apr 5, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    I don't remember them ever saying the cage was made just for Archangel's. I alway's kinda thought that once something went into the cage it was there for good and the only way to get something out was breaking the seal's. Beside's Death getting Sam's soul out of course, but he on a whole other level then Crowley.

    I remember Cas talking to Dean in season 4 and Cas saying that Archangel's are Heavens must powerful weapons that they are absolute. So wouldn't common sense say that if Archangel's are absolute wouldn't the cage holding Archangel's be absolute too. Definition of absolute free from restriction, limitation, or exception..


    I second this.

    My point, if I have been unclear, is not that Crowley couldn't release Sam. He obviously could. How? Because he is the King of Hell.

    I'm not having problem with Sam released, they had to do it in some way. I have problem with it being Crowley, and it being done so lightly. A few episodes later we find out fairies too can sneak into the Cage. Then Death does it too. In Season 6 it seems just about anyone can sneak into it, which somehow diminishes the significance of two seasons (3 and 4) dedicated to opening it in the first place.

    I'm just arguing for my position, I'm not saying I'm absolutely right or whatever. There are probably holes in my reasoning as well, but I'm not satisfied with 'King of Hell' explanation. It's just too simple and convenient, an example of lazy writing.

    They could have told us more, like how without seals the Cage became rusty, or how human souls are different from angels' - but even that can be argued. When Anna fell and lost her grace, she was human. So soul appears to have levels - angelic, with grace - human, without grace - demonic, scarred.
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    libra113

    [58]Apr 5, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    kanniballl wrote:

    dpebbleson wrote:
    What I didn't like about this season is that it took 66 seals and whatnot to break Lucifer out, while it took Crowley being King of Hell to burst Sam out. I know people have speculations that Sam's soul is different than Lucifer's, but I just don't buy that, it seems illogical to me. Apparently, Cage changes according to what story demands. Or at least to me.


    I believe the cage was made specifically for Lucifer, or at least certain types of things like angels.


    Therefore getting a human soul out of there might be an easier thing.


    For example: a regular prison cell is made to keep people inside.
    But a small kitten might be able to fit through the bars unharmed with enough coaxing.



    Alternatively, the seals were broken. It's possible the cage isn't as tough as it used to be.



    Yeah, could be, but why didn't we learn more on 'why' and 'how' he got released.

    An angel can fit into a human body...

    If the seals were broken, than that's the deal for Lucifer as well.

    We don't really know how or of what the cell is made, so speculating about bars isn't gonna do much. What I saw was some black-holeish stuff, that transports it's captive into some other dimension. It looks infinitely deep, and remote, the very stars can be seen in the depths.

    I wonder if the soul could just get out and run away even if it could 'slip between the bars'.

    I like the speculations, of course, but they don't convince me. Basically how Sam got out was Deus ex Machina - Crowley being the Deus part.
    So basically you've made up your mind and nothing is going to change it no matter what?

    Seems pretty clear to me. The cage is an archangel cage, anything that's not archangel cannot be held by it so Sam's body was easy to scoop out.

    Either Crowley decided to leave his soul behind because THAT was what Lucifer and Micheal were focusing on, or (perhaps more likely) it wouldn't have surved his needs for Sam to have it (for good or for ill).

    I really don't see the hang up here except for this idea that the cage is a physical cage and nothing cannot be held by it, which seems unlikely.

    Why would anyone make a cage for an archangel but also proof it against everything? It's not like a demon getting in would hurt anything they couldn't take Lucifer back out again so it would be pointless to make it so broadly powerful.

    This really doesn't change anything or contradict anything it only adds a new perspective and that is what shows are supposed to do otherwise they stagnate and die.

    If you're going to say they can't add new elements to their own universe because it doesn't fit your intial interpitation of things then that's unfairly hamstringing the writer's creativity.

    Now if they had said all along the cage was absolute and that nothing could get in or out without breaking the seals (like a blackhole or something) THEN had Sam come back you would have a point but that's not what happened.


    I'm not saying nothing can change my mind, I'm saying your arguments don't convince me, that's all.

    Saying it's an archangel cage sounds like saying that Prison A was made for the greatest criminals with top security levels, but lesser criminals can somehow slip through the bars. I don't see logic in that.

    If a demon could get into that cage, then they most certainly would. Most demons, however, were unsure if Lucifer really existed. Many lost faith. Azazel had to slaughter nuns just to get Lucifer 'whisper through the crack'. Lilith was 'neck deep in the pit', and couldn't get out without Devil's Gate being opened.

    And all it takes Sam to get out is for Crowley to become King of Hell! So what if he is king of hell? What kind of explanation is that? Since when does status in Hell bring power. As far as I know established canon is that the more you spend down there, the more twisted and powerful you get. Lilith is the oldest, therefore the most powerful.

    They needn't have said that the cage was absolute, it was almost implied in the entire seasons 3 & 4. To open the first seal you have to take a righteous man to hell and break him. Then you've got to break 66 out of 666 (or so) seals to weaken it. Then you've got to kill Lilith, the first demon, to finally unlock it. All this makes it look like a tough business. Compare with the easiness of Crowley clicking his fingers and just bringing Sam out.

    I'm obviously talking about easy solutions and how they pale in comparison to two seasons of effort.

    Yes, indeed nowhere it was said that it is absolute. But nowhere it is said that it isn't absolute. Therefore, I don't say your opinion isn't valid, it just isn't more valid than mine.

    If you, however, point out to some, even vaguest, element, quote, saying, whatever, that points out that the Cage was made for archangels only, I will change my opinion. I'm not that stubborn.

    But to be honest, even if they did it in the show, I'd just consider it an easy solution as well.
    Okay, once again you're thinking litteraly and in human terms. Of course a HUMAN cage holds humans AND the chance of escape would have to do with skill, luck, etc... Still, we're talking about a world with magic, diffrent speices of creatures, etc... Given that angels would see anything short of other angels/archangels as a threat WHY would they make a cage that can hold anything? What diffrence would it make if a demon walked into the cage and out again as long as they couldn't take Lucifer with them?

    Likely, the reason the demons had to go through all they did was becasue the angels hid the cage from them. They CAN walk in or out at will but since they don't know WHERE it is it doesn't matter.

    Lilith MAY have know the location due to her status but again so what? She wouldn't have been able to do anything about it and since she was physically trapped as well (possible BECASUE he knew the location and that knowledge was what made her to vital) she couldn't tell anyone else.

    It all hangs together as long as you stop thinking litterally and in human terms of a physical cage with bars and locks.

    Guess I've just seen so many of these shows and movies it's easier for me to see things in the abstract becasue I never saw the cage as an actual cage and never saw any issue with a lesser creature such as a demon walking in and out again.

    To me the REAL issue would be dealing with Micheal and Lucifer, once inside and I can guess they were busy working over Sam's soul so his body was a fairly easy get.
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    libra113

    [59]Apr 5, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    I don't remember them ever saying the cage was made just for Archangel's. I alway's kinda thought that once something went into the cage it was there for good and the only way to get something out was breaking the seal's. Beside's Death getting Sam's soul out of course, but he on a whole other level then Crowley.

    I remember Cas talking to Dean in season 4 and Cas saying that Archangel's are Heavens must powerful weapons that they are absolute. So wouldn't common sense say that if Archangel's are absolute wouldn't the cage holding Archangel's be absolute too. Definition of absolute free from restriction, limitation, or exception..
    Look at it this way. What if the cage is a ring of holy fire? If an archangle touches it they are destroyed. Would a demon be destroyed? Would a human?

    Humans are far weaker than demons but they can walk in and out of a devil's trap while demons can't. That makes sense so I fail to see why this doesn't.
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    libra113

    [60]Apr 5, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    I don't remember them ever saying the cage was made just for Archangel's. I alway's kinda thought that once something went into the cage it was there for good and the only way to get something out was breaking the seal's. Beside's Death getting Sam's soul out of course, but he on a whole other level then Crowley.

    I remember Cas talking to Dean in season 4 and Cas saying that Archangel's are Heavens must powerful weapons that they are absolute. So wouldn't common sense say that if Archangel's are absolute wouldn't the cage holding Archangel's be absolute too. Definition of absolute free from restriction, limitation, or exception..


    I second this.

    My point, if I have been unclear, is not that Crowley couldn't release Sam. He obviously could. How? Because he is the King of Hell.

    I'm not having problem with Sam released, they had to do it in some way. I have problem with it being Crowley, and it being done so lightly. A few episodes later we find out fairies too can sneak into the Cage. Then Death does it too. In Season 6 it seems just about anyone can sneak into it, which somehow diminishes the significance of two seasons (3 and 4) dedicated to opening it in the first place.

    I'm just arguing for my position, I'm not saying I'm absolutely right or whatever. There are probably holes in my reasoning as well, but I'm not satisfied with 'King of Hell' explanation. It's just too simple and convenient, an example of lazy writing.

    They could have told us more, like how without seals the Cage became rusty, or how human souls are different from angels' - but even that can be argued. When Anna fell and lost her grace, she was human. So soul appears to have levels - angelic, with grace - human, without grace - demonic, scarred.
    Which all points to what I've been saying the cage effects angels/archangels ONLY.

    It's not about power it's about creature types. Anything that isn't an angel or archangel can enter and exit the cage at will BUT only if they know the location and the location is (likely) a well gaurded secret.

    I don't see that they need to spell it out when just considering the issue we can figure it out on our own. I seem to remember, in the old days, when we figured this stuff out for ourselves without having to have every little thing explained.

    Of course back then there weren't so many people looking to pick things apart and assuming something is a mistake or bad writing, back then we gave them their due and figured out this stuff for ourselves.
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