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Official Discussion Thread: Caged Heat (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of sunnykimmy

    sunnykimmy

    [101]Dec 7, 2010
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    dman_dustin wrote:


    UltraStrata wrote:


    aussiemovieguy wrote:
    first again. god these boards are dead. hurry up with the sam soul thing sera. you got 2 more episodes before I call supernatural sharked. In fact I think it already has. This show has really gone downhill. I AM OVER THE FACT THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH SAM OK????? AFTER 5 AND A HALF SEASONS, AM OVER IT!!!!!


    First of all, Sam has not been missing a soul for five and a half seasons. Second, I kind of like this plot line. It at least keeps the action rolling. Though I do wish that it would just hurry up. I don't want an entire season that deals with Sam being this show's version of the BTK killer. Finally, I consider this season a bit of an upgrade from the previous one... especially the penultimate two episodes.



    I think aussiemovieguy is referring to the fact that everything seems to happen to Sam ( a lot more than Dean, anyway). If this was Dean without a soul, I highly doubt there would be as many complaints.


    Just a few things I remember happening to Sam:


    1. Sam was chosen to be a "demon child" by Azazel,


    2. If I'm not mistaken Sam was the first to die of the Winchester Brothers. I could be wrong on this though, because I'm not sure if that one death of Dean counts, or whether it occurred first. But if Dean did die first (technically), I'll just go and say what I meant was Sam's death actually had more of an effect than Dean's death, probably since Dean was in-between life and death, but Sam was straight-out dead.


    3. While it was at the expense of Dean, Sam did have to endure countless Dean deaths is what was it? "Mystery Spot?"


    4. Sam seemed to be heavily picked on from Gabriel in the Changing Channels Episode,


    5. Sam "sacrificed" himself to bring Lucifer back into the cage.


    6. Sam has no soul.


    There are probably others, but I always got the feeling that Sam was a bit more picked on than Dean (not to say that Dean hasn't been picked on, but like I said, Sam seems like the writers' punching bag).



    But probably even more to the point, usually Sam always came with a loyalty issue tag. Since his loyalty was questionable in the past, maybe it wasn't his fault those times (as well) but it always did seem like if one were to turn evil it would be Sam.


    However, since we leaned that Sam has a soul a few episodes ago I really can't see aussiemovieguy's point. I mean what do you mean "I am over the fact that something is wrong with Sam"? Because to me I don't understand that complaint because we know what's wrong with Sam, he has no soul, now were just seeing what happens when someone without a soul interacts with the world. However the complaint makes it seem like we don't know what's wrong with Sam. Except we do so the complaint just doesn't make much sense to me. I mean obviously we can't have Sam getting his soul back after like one episode, because how many chances are we going to see someone without a soul interact with the world on Supernatural?



    But then again Dean was the first one to go to hell so at least he did something first.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [102]Dec 7, 2010
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    taxcat11 wrote:

    It is possible that Adam was not with Michael for the confrontation with Lucifer. Usually the vessel could be expected to return to their life after the angel was finished its' mission. But as this was meant to be the end of the world, there really was no reason for Adam to tag along. He could have been left in Heaven and just given Michael his meat suit. Certainly that is a nicer possibility for him if the writers continue to callously ignore him. Which given the caliber of performance of the actor, is just silly. There is no reason why room can not be found for John's youngest as part of the recurring character set.

    Well I wouldn't take bets on that happening. Still I wouldn't mind seeing him show up sometime BEFORE Sam gets his soul back to show just what Sam COULD become if they put his soul back inside him.

    Still, I tend to be a bit dark. I recall wanting Jo to comeback and try to kill Sam and Dean (after she dissppeared off the show in season two), even had an idea about her teaming with Gordon and trying to take them down.


    I think Jo as ghost would be a lot like Mary ghost sad but on the soft side and peaceful
    No I was talking about back during season two after "Born Under A Bad Sign" or early season three. Now, I wouldn't expect to see her or Ellen again.


    Well when in SPN universe when someone is killed by a demon they don't avenge on humans
    I'm not talking about then. I'm talking about after "Born Under A Bad Sign" and I'm not talking about coming back as a spirit I'm talking a flesh and blood chick with issues.

    I just thought it would have been intresting if she had hooked up with Gordon (not in a sexual way) and he has twisted her mind against Sam and Dean so that she wanted to help him against them.

    It was just an idea.
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  • Avatar of danharr

    danharr

    [103]Dec 7, 2010
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    It was decent bringing an end to the Sam soul arc and making us care about angels and the war in heaven again. Too bad to see Crowley go but all good bad guys must come to an end and I don't care for Cas going human lust crazy either and with a skank like meg that was poor writing but thankfully he was back to normal by episodes end.

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  • Avatar of Copioli

    Copioli

    [104]Dec 7, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    Copioli wrote:


    I think something weird is happening to Cas. Perhaps his control over his host is weakening. I don't know. But I see him becoming more human. As someone said before, he is not supposed to found Meg attractive. So what happened? I think his body reacted by itself, wanting a woman.


    Besides, the whole Crowley's thing was...a little weird too. "Your remains were not so well hide". Really? Did Crowley let his bones in a place not angel-protected? Why would he?


    BTW, grandpa is a douchebag. Any caring mother would rather die than have one of her children soulless or even death. Besides, he has been living a year without her daughter, he could have been used to it by now. He is a hunter, a tough one. So he should be prepared to loose his loved ones. Of course, that was supposed to make him awfully sad, but not to make him a traitor to his other relatives.


    A last thing. I agree that this show seems to have forgotten Adam. And that is just wrong. I think Adam and Sam's souls are defending themselves, making bonds. And Lucifer will be more concerned fighting his brother than the two humans.




    Cas has slowly been becoming more human since he first showed up. That's what lead to him being reprogrammed by Heaven (or they tried) and ultimatly lead to him choosing to help Dean over following orders in the first place. As for why he kissed Meg, you gotta remember he doesn't know or understand our world. Porn would give anyone unused to our ways the idea that you respond that way to that situation so when she kissed him he thought the proper response was to react the way the Pizza Guy did in the movie so he kissed her back. Why would he protect his bones against angels? It was Sam and Dean who were after them before and he's at war with his own kind not angels. The angels are too busy fighting each other to care about him. He probably didn't anticipate Cas leaving the battlefeild long enough to be a threat, happens when you get too sure of yourself. It's not about losing his daughter or about getting used to her not being around it's about her being in a dimension filled with monsters with a grudge for all eternity. You COULD say the same thing about Dean when he sold his soul to pull Sam out (why not just deal and move on) or when Sam TRIED to do the same when Dean was in Hell. Apprently, BOTH sides of the family don't deal with loss too well, meaning Sam and Dean never had a chance. It's very easy to me to see why he would sell out grandsons who are strangers to him for the sake of a daughter he obviously still loves (remember that whatshername the female cousin said he still talks about Mary all the time). In ragards to Adam he was still fully possessed by Micheal when he went into the pit. Assuming some sort of automatic ejection effect he's likely still in Adam and he and Lucifer are whaling on Sam's helpless soul even as we speak. It is a bit of a puzzle no one talking about him but I get a feeling that the writers are trying to forget him since they have no further use for his character. It also neatly underscores what Zac told Adam about how Dean would pick Sam over him everytime. Zac may have been a dick but he had a point. Right now all Dean can think about is getting Sam's soul back (when he's not pining over Lisa which hopefully is over by now).



    I agree about Cas. Not about Crowley, he seens not overconfident and he knows with all the war in Heaven some angel could have the idea of takiing his remains to treat or kill him.


    About mom; I agree with you, but grandpa didn t say nothing about being concerned for her, only that he loved her and he didn t know how to live without her.


    Last, I think that ignoring Adam is bad writing

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  • Avatar of sinjaceheroes

    sinjaceheroes

    [105]Dec 7, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    Yeah he/she/it seems to naturally take on the form of any one person in his/her/it's line of sight. Seems almost involentary at times really.


    I think its more on the, taking the shape of the one in front of you as to make it harder for that person to hurt it. e.i. you wouldnt hurt yourself, would you?


    Not that that would work on demons...



    Question: how can the thing that survived gunshot wounds, elephanttranquilizers, rip off a giant metal bolted door, just be bound by a chain to a chair? o.o and also, I found it way too easy to kill an alpha by cutting of its head with a simple machete. it wasnt even the "special" blade he had made, why bring it into the picture then? :/


    but I guess, like highlander teaches us, nothing survives having its head cut off. xD

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [106]Dec 7, 2010
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    Copioli wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    Copioli wrote:


    I think something weird is happening to Cas. Perhaps his control over his host is weakening. I don't know. But I see him becoming more human. As someone said before, he is not supposed to found Meg attractive. So what happened? I think his body reacted by itself, wanting a woman.


    Besides, the whole Crowley's thing was...a little weird too. "Your remains were not so well hide". Really? Did Crowley let his bones in a place not angel-protected? Why would he?


    BTW, grandpa is a douchebag. Any caring mother would rather die than have one of her children soulless or even death. Besides, he has been living a year without her daughter, he could have been used to it by now. He is a hunter, a tough one. So he should be prepared to loose his loved ones. Of course, that was supposed to make him awfully sad, but not to make him a traitor to his other relatives.


    A last thing. I agree that this show seems to have forgotten Adam. And that is just wrong. I think Adam and Sam's souls are defending themselves, making bonds. And Lucifer will be more concerned fighting his brother than the two humans.




    Cas has slowly been becoming more human since he first showed up. That's what lead to him being reprogrammed by Heaven (or they tried) and ultimatly lead to him choosing to help Dean over following orders in the first place. As for why he kissed Meg, you gotta remember he doesn't know or understand our world. Porn would give anyone unused to our ways the idea that you respond that way to that situation so when she kissed him he thought the proper response was to react the way the Pizza Guy did in the movie so he kissed her back. Why would he protect his bones against angels? It was Sam and Dean who were after them before and he's at war with his own kind not angels. The angels are too busy fighting each other to care about him. He probably didn't anticipate Cas leaving the battlefeild long enough to be a threat, happens when you get too sure of yourself. It's not about losing his daughter or about getting used to her not being around it's about her being in a dimension filled with monsters with a grudge for all eternity. You COULD say the same thing about Dean when he sold his soul to pull Sam out (why not just deal and move on) or when Sam TRIED to do the same when Dean was in Hell. Apprently, BOTH sides of the family don't deal with loss too well, meaning Sam and Dean never had a chance. It's very easy to me to see why he would sell out grandsons who are strangers to him for the sake of a daughter he obviously still loves (remember that whatshername the female cousin said he still talks about Mary all the time). In ragards to Adam he was still fully possessed by Micheal when he went into the pit. Assuming some sort of automatic ejection effect he's likely still in Adam and he and Lucifer are whaling on Sam's helpless soul even as we speak. It is a bit of a puzzle no one talking about him but I get a feeling that the writers are trying to forget him since they have no further use for his character. It also neatly underscores what Zac told Adam about how Dean would pick Sam over him everytime. Zac may have been a dick but he had a point. Right now all Dean can think about is getting Sam's soul back (when he's not pining over Lisa which hopefully is over by now).



    I agree about Cas. Not about Crowley, he seens not overconfident and he knows with all the war in Heaven some angel could have the idea of takiing his remains to treat or kill him.


    About mom; I agree with you, but grandpa didn t say nothing about being concerned for her, only that he loved her and he didn t know how to live without her.


    Last, I think that ignoring Adam is bad writing

    Well, given that the angels were busy fighting each other and there are, as far as we know, only two angels even spending SOME time on Earth I guess he didn't feel the need to put up special protections. It's also possible, given his reaction, that he just thought they were so well hidden that extra protection wasn't required (perhaps he was working for Balthazar and he had the bones and Cas just hasn't said anything yet).

    Well, to be honest I missed that part and would need to go back and check but I would think it's more than just missing her. Still, from his point of view she was still is young daughter as she was when he died. As for what started him on the path and all that we just don't know yet.

    As for Adam. I don't know if they're not mentioning him becasue they're hoping we'll forget (not very likely) or if they're holding back becasue they have something up their sleeve in regards to him.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [107]Dec 7, 2010
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    sinjaceheroes wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    Yeah he/she/it seems to naturally take on the form of any one person in his/her/it's line of sight. Seems almost involentary at times really.


    I think its more on the, taking the shape of the one in front of you as to make it harder for that person to hurt it. e.i. you wouldnt hurt yourself, would you?


    Not that that would work on demons...



    Question: how can the thing that survived gunshot wounds, elephanttranquilizers, rip off a giant metal bolted door, just be bound by a chain to a chair? o.o and also, I found it way too easy to kill an alpha by cutting of its head with a simple machete. it wasnt even the "special" blade he had made, why bring it into the picture then? :/


    but I guess, like highlander teaches us, nothing survives having its head cut off. xD

    It might be some sort of obscure battle tactic but since the shifter was in Crowley's form to no avail I get the idea that it's involentary. Could be a thing like it's taken others forms so many times that it doesn't even remember it's own form so it's default is whoever it's dealing with at the moment unless it willfully takes the form of someone (or thing) else.

    My guess would be that there was more to the chair and/or the chain than meets the eye, ditto with the machete. Of course it's also possible that the machete didn't kill it and we will find out later that it can live but it takes time to regrow it's head so we didn't know that right away.

    Maybe Crowley had the shifter taken back to it's cell and even now it's regrowing it's head.
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  • Avatar of aussiemovieguy

    aussiemovieguy

    [108]Dec 7, 2010
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    Think I need to clear up a few things as people seemed to take my comments out of context.



    I'm not sure how many of you besides libs and a couple of others been around these forums, but during seasons 3/4/5, there would be tons of posts, speculation and banter about upcoming episodes long before it had even aired, these days the boards are much quiter, hence the "dead" comment I made in my op.



    In regards to Sam, i'm sick and tired of the drama associated with the issues he has in the show. Im all for him having no soul, or being YED's chosen one, but what I can't tolerate any longer is the constant soap opera esque discussions that Sam and Dean seem to have, almost every episode Dean is asking "whats wrong" or something to that description, and ends in them arguing and either one of them storming out or the end of the episode with a close up of Dean's face.



    Oh and Libs, just because you still find the show enjoyable, doesn't mean everyone else has to, or that the writing has or hasn't gone downhill, or the tone of the story no longer suits the majority of fans. As plenty have mentioned before, this is a public forum on the t.v show, and people are more than welcome to express their disappointment in the show without being told to leave, or the rather short minded term "then stop watching the show". I don't want to stop watching the show, I want it to get back on track.

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    basenji529

    [109]Dec 8, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    As for Adam. I don't know if they're not mentioning him becasue they're hoping we'll forget (not very likely) or if they're holding back becasue they have something up their sleeve in regards to him.


    Adam is Chekhov's firing squad: Remember how surviving demon- and angel-possession is a family trait? Remember how Sam and Dean were the vessels of Lucifer and Michael? How Sam has been the vessel for Meg? Remember Adam, John's son from an adulterous affair? (Seems like hunters can't be monogamous.) Remember how Ruby possessed a corpse? Remember Zecheriah the Evil Fascist Angel?

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    Copioli

    [110]Dec 8, 2010
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    One thing I want to mention. Crowley seemed to kill an alpha monster. And aparently that has not real consequences. When the apha stuff begin, I though that killing an alpha would kill or depower all his race. But the alpha changeshifter didn't seem concerned about his kind, so I guess nothing happens.

    second: I don't know why, but the whole Cas-killing-Crowley scene didn't fell real. It felt as if Cas and Crowley were putting a show to made demons and the boys believe there is no more king of hell. Why? No idea. So I don't really believe it is a ruse, it just the way I felt it.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [111]Dec 8, 2010
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    aussiemovieguy wrote:

    Think I need to clear up a few things as people seemed to take my comments out of context.



    I'm not sure how many of you besides libs and a couple of others been around these forums, but during seasons 3/4/5, there would be tons of posts, speculation and banter about upcoming episodes long before it had even aired, these days the boards are much quiter, hence the "dead" comment I made in my op.



    In regards to Sam, i'm sick and tired of the drama associated with the issues he has in the show. Im all for him having no soul, or being YED's chosen one, but what I can't tolerate any longer is the constant soap opera esque discussions that Sam and Dean seem to have, almost every episode Dean is asking "whats wrong" or something to that description, and ends in them arguing and either one of them storming out or the end of the episode with a close up of Dean's face.



    Oh and Libs, just because you still find the show enjoyable, doesn't mean everyone else has to, or that the writing has or hasn't gone downhill, or the tone of the story no longer suits the majority of fans. As plenty have mentioned before, this is a public forum on the t.v show, and people are more than welcome to express their disappointment in the show without being told to leave, or the rather short minded term "then stop watching the show". I don't want to stop watching the show, I want it to get back on track.

    Well, I'm sorry but all the complaining isn't going to change anything and I can't imagine the purpose of continuing to do something that you don't enjoy doing anymore.

    I've had shows I watch take turns I didn't like and I just stopped watching it and moving on.

    I know in the past the writers have changed what they were doing to suit the vocal majority of the fans (dropping Jo and Ellen, dropping Bella, etc...) but what you're talking about would be a massive overhaul that just isn't going to happen.

    The show has moved on from driving town to town to take down some random monster of the week, it's moved on from that since the whole Lucifer/end of the world storyline was brought into the show and once you do something like that there just is no going back.

    Sam and Dean will NEVER be close brothers they were, there's too much water under that bridge. All of that is gone and is not coming back. Sorry but that's just the way it is.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [112]Dec 8, 2010
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    basenji529 wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    As for Adam. I don't know if they're not mentioning him becasue they're hoping we'll forget (not very likely) or if they're holding back becasue they have something up their sleeve in regards to him.


    Adam is Chekhov's firing squad: Remember how surviving demon- and angel-possession is a family trait? Remember how Sam and Dean were the vessels of Lucifer and Michael? How Sam has been the vessel for Meg? Remember Adam, John's son from an adulterous affair? (Seems like hunters can't be monogamous.) Remember how Ruby possessed a corpse? Remember Zecheriah the Evil Fascist Angel?

    Yeah I remember all that but apprently THEY have forgotten Adam becasue no one has even mentioned him. I can see souless Sam not careing and I can even see Dean being too concerned for Sam's soul to get beyond that point but no one else has brought him up either.

    I wonder if we will find out, down the road, that something has already been said about that but since Dean has brought it up then we didn't see it. I guess it's possible something could have happened during the time Sam and Dean were apart and we just don't know it yet.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [113]Dec 8, 2010
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    Copioli wrote:
    One thing I want to mention. Crowley seemed to kill an alpha monster. And aparently that has not real consequences. When the apha stuff begin, I though that killing an alpha would kill or depower all his race. But the alpha changeshifter didn't seem concerned about his kind, so I guess nothing happens.

    second: I don't know why, but the whole Cas-killing-Crowley scene didn't fell real. It felt as if Cas and Crowley were putting a show to made demons and the boys believe there is no more king of hell. Why? No idea. So I don't really believe it is a ruse, it just the way I felt it.
    I, too, was worried this was were the Alpha thing was going and by the end of the season all monsters would be dead and then Sam and Dean would retire to normal lives and that would be the end. I hated that idea so I'm glad (so far) they're not saying or doing that.

    I don't know, can't imagine Cas being connected to Crowley given his feelings about demons and I can't see a reason for Cas to deal with him in any way. Have to wait and see I guess.
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    supernaturalFTW

    [114]Dec 18, 2010
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    seeing as how crowley couldnt get sam's soul back, i think its a ez bet to say he wasnt the one that brought sam and grandpa champell back i mean how was he surpose to sneak into heaven to grab him. it just begs the obv question of who the "big bad" really is. i doubt its balthzar we know next to nothing about him and he was cas's friend b4 he rebeled. i think the person that persuaded him to rebel is the big bad. i also think the big bad is the one that is causing the supernatural creatures to act the way they r now. they prolly sense the danger and is massing up an army to defend themselves. it also explains y their (like vamps) are not afraid of hunters anymore its cuz they have a bigger threat
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [115]Dec 18, 2010
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    Well, I said it before and I'll say it again, a Crossroads Demon HAS to have some method of acessing souls no matter if they're Heaven or Hell becasue I'm sure they get deals to raise dead loved ones all the time and I doubt anyone wants them to be all "Night of the Living Dead" so they just must have some free pass on professional grounds (one of thoes red tape/rule things that apprently everyone has to abide by, or did until now).

    As for not knowing anything about Balthy, since when does that preclude someone from being the master mind of a major plot? I wouldn't neccisarly say 'bad' per se but up to something secret. We didn't know anything about old Yellow Eyes for months after the show started. Didn't know much about Lilith for awhile and Lucifer wasn't exactly an open book right off the bat (there are still things we don't know about all three of them).

    Perhaps Balthy and Crowley where equal and opposite members of a greater plan, perhaps not. I guess we have to wait and see.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [116]Dec 18, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, I said it before and I'll say it again, a Crossroads Demon HAS to have some method of acessing souls no matter if they're Heaven or Hell becasue I'm sure they get deals to raise dead loved ones all the time and I doubt anyone wants them to be all "Night of the Living Dead" so they just must have some free pass on professional grounds (one of thoes red tape/rule things that apprently everyone has to abide by, or did until now).

    As for not knowing anything about Balthy, since when does that preclude someone from being the master mind of a major plot? I wouldn't neccisarly say 'bad' per se but up to something secret. We didn't know anything about old Yellow Eyes for months after the show started. Didn't know much about Lilith for awhile and Lucifer wasn't exactly an open book right off the bat (there are still things we don't know about all three of them).

    Perhaps Balthy and Crowley where equal and opposite members of a greater plan, perhaps not. I guess we have to wait and see.


    Well in the case of Crowley deal to bring Mary back I don't think it be possible for him to get her soul out of purgatory so if he did bring her back he would brought her back souless like robo Sam and just use to her be servant so in some cases Demons can resurrect people like those from night of the living dead
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [117]Dec 18, 2010
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    But surely that was the reason that gramps was so hot to find Purgatory so he COULD have Mary back whole. If he was happy with robo Mary he could have had her right away.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [118]Dec 18, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    But surely that was the reason that gramps was so hot to find Purgatory so he COULD have Mary back whole. If he was happy with robo Mary he could have had her right away.
    Haha imagine robo young Mary coming back having her all memories but just not caring and at all being badass , Sam and Dean would surelyhate to see their mother like that

    Edited on 12/18/2010 6:36pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [119]Dec 18, 2010
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    But surely that was the reason that gramps was so hot to find Purgatory so he COULD have Mary back whole. If he was happy with robo Mary he could have had her right away.
    Haha imagine robo young Mary coming back having her all memories but just not caring and at all being badass , Sam and Dean would surelyhate to see their mother like that

    Why would it be YOUNG Mary and not the way she was right before she died?
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [120]Dec 18, 2010
    • member since: 05/11/10
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    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:


    libra113 wrote:
    But surely that was the reason that gramps was so hot to find Purgatory so he COULD have Mary back whole. If he was happy with robo Mary he could have had her right away.
    Haha imagine robo young Mary coming back having her all memories but just not caring and at all being badass , Sam and Dean would surelyhate to see their mother like that


    Why would it be YOUNG Mary and not the way she was right before she died?




    Both characters versions of the character are written as young while there is huge maturity gap between 18 and 29 both ages are just a peek a lifetime though


    Edited on 12/18/2010 8:10pm
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