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Official Discussion Thread: Family Matters (possible spoilers)

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    Gislef

    [1]Nov 2, 2010
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    Please direct all general and specific discussion of the 11/5/10 episode "Family Matters" to this thread.

    Enjoy!
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    Clarabell11

    [2]Nov 2, 2010
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    First! Yay!



    Looks like it's going to be a good one, very excited! Hopefully get some answers about what's going on with the Campbells too.

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    CaptainHarkness

    [3]Nov 3, 2010
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    Looks like this ep will move things along nicely with the Campbells. And a back to back episode appearance from Cas? Awesome.

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    sinjaceheroes

    [4]Nov 5, 2010
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    Whoo, my laptop's fixed and Im back here. xD Cant wait for tonight's episode.

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    dpebbleson

    [5]Nov 5, 2010
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    sinjaceheroes wrote:

    Whoo, my laptop's fixed and Im back here. xD Cant wait for tonight's episode.



    Hey long time no see! Enjoy the episode, you'll be seeing it hours before me.
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  • Avatar of LordSothe

    LordSothe

    [6]Nov 5, 2010
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    Okay, so it took Azazel centuries to find a way to open Lucifer's cage (and several decades to set his plan in motion once he knew how) and yet Crowley can just stick his hand in and pull Sam out whenever he feels like it? Yet Raphael, an Archangel who is probably several times as powerful as Crowley, can't do the same for Michael and Lucifer?


    I thought the episode itself was pretty good, but I'm not sure about the direction they decided to take things. Just seems like there's a few holes in it, though hopefully they'll be addressed later in the season. The bit about purgatory was interesting, though -apparently monsters and demons don't just cease to exist once they're killed after all.

    Edited on 11/05/2010 7:07pm
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    libra113

    [7]Nov 5, 2010
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    It occurs to me that gramps is likely doing this becasue John and Mary are in Purgatory and he's trying to get them out.

    Mary supposedly perished fighting a poltergeist but if there's another layer of afterlife for spirits (where they go when a hunter destroys them for example) it would be there so if she's anywhere it would be there.

    John clawed his way out of Hell and helped Dean kill Yellow Eyes then faded away, also a canidate for being there as well.

    That is his reward and the pic he was looking at was likely an old pic of Mary or maybe even a wedding photo he got from somewhere (since he wasn't around for the real deal).
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    KingofIPirates

    [8]Nov 5, 2010
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    Pretty good episode overall, the plot was fairly engaging and there were a few humorous scenes as well.
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    sinjaceheroes

    [9]Nov 5, 2010
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    I thought this episode was great.


    Purgatoryis a nice idea. It exists in literature might as well use it as well. And since monsters dont have human souls, I guess its logical they dont go where humans go--e.i. heaven and hell.


    We all knew Crowley was gonna be a big bad this season, but I didnt think they would make him into such a bad ass. Obviously, this is not just about expanding Hell's domain--which shouldn't it be limitless or infinite? O_o There's something else here, and I guess, we'll learn about it down the road.


    "We all have a mother" left me a bit rattled. I can't say Im not looking forward to another female big power, since its such an oddity in this show, but I'm lost as to how they're gonna make that.


    Cause we all know that the "gods" were here before the angels, so, Im guessing that this "Mother" will turn out to be a God-like being, and when I say God, I mean--the big daddy God. There's a dozen ways they could go about that. When Death talked about his relationship with God, he didn't say anything about them being the First first, he just talked about himself and God. So, maybe they will make a Mother of sorts, one that was here before Death and God? o.o


    This is really confusing, and I don't think they will go down that road, but just a thought that I wanted to give out.


    But the most probable thing I can think up with what we've been given and what we have seen throughout the whole series, I could say this Mother has her own angels, the gods, and her own people, the monsters.


    I think its clear that the "monsters" did not come from God, since it would be ridiculous making them just to kill the humans. Luci made the demons, and I could see why He wouldnt kill the demons, since they were humans once before and the whole perseverance of good thing, but monsters, I wouldn't get. -__-


    Anyways, I like where its going, and I know from NOW it wont be explained fully this season, but as long as they make it interesting I'll stick around--ehh, who am I kidding, I'll stay around anyways.


    P.S. I do get that when big daddy vamp said "We all have our mothers" he may have, (and quite possibly did), meant his own mother as in what birthed him, but for some reason, I dont think he meant it that simple. I guess time will prove me right or wrong.

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    AnilThornberry

    [10]Nov 5, 2010
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    Tonight was the 'real' start of the season as we got to see the purpose and plot of the season. The direction it's going is very interesting. Excited to see how this all flows.

    libra113 wrote:
    It occurs to me that gramps is likely doing this becasue John and Mary are in Purgatory and he's trying to get them out.


    I agree with this. He too cares about his family and must be doing this for the family's sake.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [11]Nov 5, 2010
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    AnilThornberry wrote:
    Tonight was the 'real' start of the season as we got to see the purpose and plot of the season. The direction it's going is very interesting. Excited to see how this all flows.

    libra113 wrote:
    It occurs to me that gramps is likely doing this becasue John and Mary are in Purgatory and he's trying to get them out.


    I agree with this. He too cares about his family and must be doing this for the family's sake.
    It was just the first thing that popped into my mind when they first mentioned Purgatory. Also, in light of Ash saying they weren't in Heaven and that the last time we saw them both they were technically spirits.

    Kinda fits and makes the whole "Where are John and Mary" thing fit into the whole thing so it's not left hanging all alone.
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    sinjaceheroes

    [12]Nov 5, 2010
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    LordSothe wrote:


    Okay, so it took Azazel centuries to find a way to open Lucifer's cage (and several decades to set his plan in motion once he knew how) and yet Crowley can just stick his hand in and pull Sam out whenever he feels like it? Yet Raphael, an Archangel who is probably several times as powerful as Crowley, can't do the same for Michael and Lucifer?


    I thought the episode itself was pretty good, but I'm not sure about the direction they decided to take things. Just seems like there's a few holes in it, though hopefully they'll be addressed later in the season. The bit about purgatory was interesting, though -apparently monsters and demons don't just cease to exist once they're killed after all.



    Well, we have to remember that Azazel was just obsessed with finding Lucifer and fulfilling his plan to release him, Crowley kept making deals and getting souls, which apparently make a supernatural being stronger? And since they call him King of the Crossroads and he had Dean's soul in hispossession, without actually having to be the one to make the deal--holding the contract as they said--I'm guessing he took souls even from deals hedidn'tpersonally make.


    But what I realized as he said it was him who pulled Sam and Dean was that long ago, he said that he needed someone to make a wish in order to find Death, a human's wish. Which means that there's others key players still not here, maybe. He could have somehow compelled a human to make the wish or something, but there's something off, a few lies were said in this episode. They'll come to light sooner or later.


    I would say that given the recent reveal, demons do not go to purgatory when they are killed. They do cease to exist since their souls are destroyed. What Im guessing is that monsters have a soul as well, just not human. After all, demons are human souls, we have always known that. Just cause they turn black and get a power boost doesnt mean they stop being originally human, so they go where human souls go, and when they're killed they just cease.



    This is how I make sense of it, cause otherwise, it doesnt make sense, does it? If monsters did not have souls, they wouldnt have a place to go to, since there's nothing to move on they would just stop being, but since they do have purgatory, they do have souls. And thus, thesegregationof human and non human souls.


    I guess they'll explain it more down the road. But it is getting interesting, isn't it? More mythology. I can just hear the clicking of the keyboards as SPN sites everywhere are getting updated with a new category of the afterlife.


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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [13]Nov 5, 2010
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    I assume you're refuring to the red tape that Yellow Eyes mentioned and not being able to bring someone back without someone making a deal.

    That's a very good point and I see three options: (1) Now that Crowley is king of Hell the rules no longer apply. (2) Since the world is a wreck and a lot of the old rules seem to no longer apply that's no longer true or (3)as you said, there's someone out there, who made the actual intial deal with Crowley. I've seen this whole Crowley mentioned before and the one issue I had with it is that I doubt a person in Hell can then cut a deal with a demon to get themselves out since the demon already has their soul. It's like letting someone buy a product from you with your money. Maybe one of the cousins entered in the original deal then Crowely cut a side deal with gramps who got Sam out. Could be that gramps told Crowley he needed Sam and Dean to get the job done so he cut a deal and pulled strings.

    We've seen with his dealings with Bobby that the rules, even then, weren't absoulte and could be fudged (he even threw in Bobby's legs when it wasn't acutally part of the deal and was able to void the deal EXCEPT for the legs later).

    As for being able to do it, pulling Sam's souless body and mind out of Hell and pulling Lucifer and/or Micheal out would be totally diffrent things and, from what Crowley said, it's something that comes from being king of Hell.
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    AnilThornberry

    [14]Nov 5, 2010
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    @sinjaceheroes,
    Not the place I know but I love your signature. LOL!!!
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    sinjaceheroes

    [15]Nov 5, 2010
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    AnilThornberry wrote:
    @sinjaceheroes, Not the place I know but I love your signature. LOL!!!


    Worry not, friend. It is pretty badass.

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    jkpop_07

    [16]Nov 5, 2010
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    Great ep! I was starting to get the feeling that Dean and Sam were gonna split up again. Sam doesn't have a soul so he can't really care about anything much less Dean and he's such a fantastic hunter so what does he need Dean for? I'm relieved that Sam decided to stay with Dean it just makes me wonder if he has an ulterior motive... dun dun dun lol

    I'm really not convinced that Crowley is the big bad of the season. He's a great character but he's soooo funny and kinda loveable! To me he just seems like a henchmen or a puppet or might be collaborating with someone else. I just don't see him doing this by himself.

    Purgatory is very a interesting theme to bring to the SPN world so I'm excited to see where this season goes!
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    taxcat11

    [17]Nov 5, 2010
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    Might of known that Christian was possessed, who wouldn't like to have Dean as their cousin? I agree that the only thing likely to tempt Samuel to leave Heaven is to get Mary out of Purgatory. I doubt he would be that interested in getting John out, but I wouldn't be surprised if John had got to Heaven, realized Mary wasn't there and went after her. They are soul bonded after all. A guy who can break out of Hell, isn't going to findHeaven a big challenge. BTW Purgatory also borders Heaven. Nothing like a civil war to keep you from paying attention to what is going on just outside your borders. But why would Samuel not admit it to Dean? I mean, Dean might not care for Samuel dealing with Crowley, but help get his mother out of Purgatory, I can't see him refusing to do that. It sounds like Purgatory is not that much of an improvement over Hell. A sort of wilderness with loads of nasty characters. Vampires, werewolves likely, shapeshifters perhaps, wendigos likely, ghouls likely etc. But perhaps none of them actively trying to destroy each other the way demons do. I wonder if Sam's soul is in Lucifer's cage. I don't think Crowley would risk letting Lucifer out to retrieve it. And of course once again what about Adam's soul? Is it trapped with Sam? Wasn't with Michael to begin with?

    Edited on 11/05/2010 8:49pm
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    Doom442

    [18]Nov 5, 2010
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    This was a great episode. We got alot of answers but those answers expanded the plot and created new paths instead of closing the book on its own pre-existing threads.


    To contribute some debate, i had a thought while reading some comments here. When Crowley said being King of Hell gave him all sorts of power, maybe some of that power is control over the Horsemen (or whats left of them), as the previous King of Hell had that power (it was artificial power, but maybe he got the ability to use it or knowledge to use the binding links, etc). And he forced Death to do the deed, since he can raise the dead as soul-less beings, and i think he is bluffing about being able to give Sam's soul back since he cant.

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    libra113

    [19]Nov 5, 2010
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    jkpop_07 wrote:
    Great ep! I was starting to get the feeling that Dean and Sam were gonna split up again. Sam doesn't have a soul so he can't really care about anything much less Dean and he's such a fantastic hunter so what does he need Dean for? I'm relieved that Sam decided to stay with Dean it just makes me wonder if he has an ulterior motive... dun dun dun lol

    I'm really not convinced that Crowley is the big bad of the season. He's a great character but he's soooo funny and kinda loveable! To me he just seems like a henchmen or a puppet or might be collaborating with someone else. I just don't see him doing this by himself.

    Purgatory is very a interesting theme to bring to the SPN world so I'm excited to see where this season goes!
    I wonder if Sam isn't just doing what he THINKS is expected of him from whoever he happens to be with, trying to blend in and create the illousion that everything is normal. He was with gramps and Bobby at least part of the past year and apprently no one but Dean noticed anything was off so he's probably pretty good at faking human reation and emotion, except that he's only faking what he THINKS others expect of him and not how he would REALLY act so Dean was the only one to catch on.

    As for Crowley I gotta agree he doesn't SEEM very ultimate evil but there are likely sides to him we just haven't been privy to just yet and yes he COULD be in leauge with someone else. Maybe there's an angel or someone who is backing his rise to power in Hell as a way of trying to restore the status qou that was shattered by the events of last season.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [20]Nov 5, 2010
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    taxcat11 wrote:

    Might of known that Christian was possessed, who wouldn't like to have Dean as their cousin? I agree that the only thing likely to tempt Samuel to leave Heaven is to get Mary out of Purgatory. I doubt he would be that interested in getting John out, but I wouldn't be surprised if John had got to Heaven, realized Mary wasn't there and went after her. They are soul bonded after all. A guy who can break out of Hell, isn't going to findHeaven a big challenge. BTW Purgatory also borders Heaven. Nothing like a civil war to keep you from paying attention to what is going on just outside your borders. But why would Samuel not admit it to Dean? I mean, Dean might not care for Samuel dealing with Crowley, but help get his mother out of Purgatory, I can't see him refusing to do that. It sounds like Purgatory is not that much of an improvement over Hell. A sort of wilderness with loads of nasty characters. Vampires, werewolves likely, shapeshifters perhaps, wendigos likely, ghouls likely etc. But perhaps none of them actively trying to destroy each other the way demons do. I wonder if Sam's soul is in Lucifer's cage. I don't think Crowley would risk letting Lucifer out to retrieve it. And of course once again what about Adam's soul? Is it trapped with Sam? Wasn't with Michael to begin with?

    Well my original first thought was that he was trying to get Mary out of Purgatory but I decided to give him the benifit of the doubt and assume he wouldn't be an @$$hole and leave John there alone without Mary. It's also possible that the Cupid thing bonded their spirits so that John was drawn there becasue Mary was there but I was basically working on the idea that they were basically both ghosts when they passed out of this world so they went there automatically.

    Maybe, Crowley is intrested in Purgatory as a way to mount a backdoor assult on Heaven? A bit ambitious for him but nothing seems beyond him these days.

    Perhaps, he didn't tell Dean becasue the price of pulling Mary out of Purgatory is something too high for him to tolerate. Either that or a condition of the deal is not to disclose the details. Hard to say at this point.
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