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Official Discussion Thread: Family Matters (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [41]Nov 6, 2010
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    valenerramouspe wrote:
    I don't know if I'm right about this, but aren't shapeshifters born that way?
    There's an aurgument about if they're born that way or it's a life choice. Sorry couldn't resist.

    Yeah they're born that way. In fact the shapeshifters are the most scientific of the "Supernatural" monsters becasue they're refurred to as being genetic freaks or mutants or whatever and there's not really any attempt to give them a more supernatural sounding backstory.

    The actual shapeshifter myth is a bit diffrent but that's how it works on the show.
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    sinjaceheroes

    [42]Nov 6, 2010
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    valenerramouspe wrote:
    I don't know if I'm right about this, but aren't shapeshifters born that way?


    yeah, they are. we dont know what the alpha shifter looks like--he could be an actual horrible monster who just prances around in human form to get laid. xD


    but it would make no sense that all monsters were human too. there is no moral reason for god to take his precious, loved more than angels, creations and just infect them with crap just for kicks. as i said before, theres a moral thing with demons as demons are just pissed off and made evil humans--and even then luci made them, not god--but theres no reason for monsters. so it doesnt make sense that its simply god.


    If they do make that true, then arent they making god into a bigger a-hole than we already think he is in the show?


    What if God made the Mother? Before making the angels and humans, what if he wanted something more personal and made the Mother? That could be interesting--if God made a being close to power as him in order to have companionship.


    Maybe things got a little Lilith-y then! And the Mother made her own angels--the gods--and her own people--the monsters!


    It would make perfect sense! Both gods and monsters feed on humans! It could be like payback for what god did to her!


    And then she made her own domain! Purgatory!


    I have to say, I am VERY proud of this theory.


    What do you guys and gals make of it?

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [43]Nov 6, 2010
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    Well it would depend very much on the backstory of the Alphas as they would be the first of their kind and would pass their conditions on to others.

    For all we know the first vampire (who we saw) might have been punished for some great sin, ditto for the first shapeshifter, first werewolf, etc...

    Perhaps all the Alphas were the greatest sinners of the early world and were punished for their sins by having their humanity stripped away. Have to remember the God of "Supernatural" is VERY Old Testement and the Old Testement God was a vengful and jelious God who made man tow the line or else... hell he flooded the whole world just to clense it of thoes saw as evil.

    It's also possible that, as an extention of free will, the people who were the first Alphas were just unlucky or made bad choices and were allowed to be made inhuman to allow their free will.

    Wouldn't exacatly promote free will if God stepped in and stopped someone from becoming a vampire due to bad choices or whatever.
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    taxcat11

    [44]Nov 6, 2010
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    May I suggest that although vampires, werewolves, wendigos etc. start out human with the standard issue human soul; the process of becoming a supernatural monster damages the soul in such a way that it can no longer "fit" in Heaven or Hell. Which is interesting because prior tothis I would have assumed that monsters ended up in Hell. Because of the evil stuff they tend to do. But somebody is obviously suggesting that it is not fair to hold made supernatural monsters to the same standard as your natural "evil 'cause I wanna be" human. So where does this leave Madison (werewolf girl)? Inquiring minds would like to know. Had she managed to hang on to her human soul or was it too late? Obviously Crowley figures that monsters will naturally side with demons rather than angels. Me, I would think they would prefer their independence from either side, just like devas. Personally, I wasn't that impressed with Heaven, mostly because Tessa was right about it. Friends & family were not reunited. I can't see spending eternity separated from everybody with just your memory of them to keep you company unless you got lucky enough to soul bond with somebody. Nor were you allowed to befriend anybody new to you. Really it was more like a no kill animal shelter, when you think about it. The vast wilds of Purgatory is looking more appealing by the minute, even if you do have to fight off the zombie hordes for time to time. At least you haven't got angels & demons bossing you around. And you can hang with your werewolf pack or try and make friends with the vampires or see what it's like to shuffle with zombies. Who knows, you might actually like it.

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    WCSU1987

    [46]Nov 7, 2010
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    I am a bit lost. Big G created us or sort of according to the Supernatural world. Big L revolted and took a few angels in the Supernatural world? Then the demons were then created. So do you think there would be a creator in Purgatory? If this creator did create everything else in the Supernatural world do they just come from Purg.? Other question few seasons back Sam was brought back by supposedly Crowley. What is the difference between bringing Sam back now compared to the last time?

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    dpebbleson

    [47]Nov 7, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:


    Okay. Personally, my money is on Balthazar. As you say he has to fit in somewhere so I have a sense (based on nothing of course) that he gave Crowley a push to help him with his medoric rise to the top.


    I thought about it last night and came to a similar conclusion. Maybe Balthazar owns Sam's soul, since he already bought that kid's. Also both events are linked with Castiel probing their intestines for the soul Perhaps he has greater designs, perhaps he thinks Hell under Crowley will restore the status qou before all the free Lucifer stuff started or perhaps he's just board and wants to shake things up a bit.
    libra113 wrote:
    Oh and you say Crowley took over in a few days but your forgetting time dialation in Hell. It might have been a few days here but a LOT longer there and it's clear in "Weekend At Bobby's" that his position isn't solidified and he could still lose it at any time.


    Okay, that's a fair point.

    libra113 wrote:
    Firstly I though the demon was called Casey, Cassie being Dean's love intrest from "Route 666" (so many similar names, get a name book writers ).


    Yeah, it's Casey, you're right, and they're similar, and both connected to Dean so no wonder...

    libra113 wrote:
    Secondly, calling someone a tyraint doesn't make them a ruler or anything. Tyraint can be a generic term for anyone who is bossing or controling or whatnot. Seems he had SOME authority over earthbound demons but apprently not all of them, or at least didn't directly command all of them as even his own 'daughter' had no idea what the master plan was and other demons (like the Phantom Traveler demon) had NOTHING to do with the plan or Yellow Eyes or anything (unless crashing planes was some weird, obscure part of the grand plan. Also, I would think that Lilith would be higher than Yellow Eyes since she's older but I guess being out of circulation (he told Lucifer that he had to FIND her before he could use her in the plan)kind of knocked her down a few spots. The whole thing kind of reminds me of the Bill McKay "Stargate" books (based on the movies not the tv series) where the false gods were always at war with each other for power and resources and teritory and whatnot and Ishtar had been out of circulation for thousands of years so she had nothing and had to kill another god and take their stuff just get back into the game. In short I suspect Hell is a place of changing alliances, cutthroat betrayal and backstabbing. At any given time any particular demon could take the title then lose it just as easily.


    I remember Casey (yay!! I got the name!) saying that a new leader is rising among demons. Which means that the previous one was Azazel. And she said smth like "he's a tyrant but he held us all together". Of course, demons still have their individual agendas, but I think there's no doubt he was their leader on Earth. As for Meg not knowing his plan - it was probably so the plan could work

    But yeah Hell probably is a place of changing alliances, cutthroat betrayal and backstabbing.

    libra113 wrote:
    It's been awhile since I've seen "Weekend At Bobby's" did they actually say that his son's spirit had passed on to Heaven or Hell? Is there some reason to think he hadn't?


    It wasn't mentioned at all I think. But one would think they would investigate a haunting by his son. What kind of ghost doesn't haunt places, torture people and whatnot...?

    libra113 wrote:
    As for the cage thing I think too many people are taking the word cage too literally. Nowhere that I recall is it stated that it's an actual cage with bars and all that, just a place they put Lucifer to keep him in check. Also, they HAVE clearly stated that his 'cage' IS in Hell just a harsh and hard to reach region. I could guess there is no direct acess (why lock up the demon god in their own territory and give acess so they could just let him out) there and only that one doorway here and only with the seals broken.


    No not with bars probably But since it's unapproachable from Hell's direction it's almost like a separate dimension. And who created it? Maybe God? If that's so, it could be the most perfect cage ever.

    libra113 wrote:
    Now I will admit I have my issues with the whole body/mind/ spirit thing and feel the way you do but I can only assume it's rare (but possible) for the mind and spirit to be split, either that or Sam's mind isn't REALLY there and it's something else or he's on automatic. I have pointed out twice (and no one bit) that Sam mentioned in the first episode that Dean staked the Djinn they met before and you don't stake Djinn. Either the writers, editors, actors, etc... messed up or it's a hint that Sam's mind isn't fully intact either.


    My best guess is that his soul is somehow telepathically controlling the body, but since distance is so large, it cannot afford to send emotions as well. Something like dial-up internet, and you only get chat, and no conference or video calls

    libra113 wrote:
    As for the fundimental rules of the universe I DO think they have changed. As the opening titles hint at (and other characters have said) the world is broken so I can only guess that some of the underlying rules that dictates who the superntrual world works no longer apply or are diffrent.


    The titles do suggest the world is broken. But even the breaking must occur according to some rules. Even nuclear bomb works according to the laws of physics, even though it's a 'destroyer of worlds'

    But we'll see, maybe they do explain how the rules have changed. Balthazar has said the rules are different in Heaven now, but I thought of it as social standards - now it's okay to rebel like Castiel, Heaven is no longer ruled by an autocrat, there's anarchy. But angels are still angels if you get what I wanna say ; )

    libra113 wrote:
    Maybe whoever or whatever is in control of that (maybe the Mother) is no longer enforcing them. Maybe she's behind it all and she wants the Alphas to do a reset. Maybe she wants to wipe them all out and that's why they're gearing up for war. Have to wait and see.


    Now I'm very interested into who this Mother being is! Mother of all creatures. Hmmm... I guess she will be the main villain. And I guess she will be anthropomorphic like the rest of the creatures.
    libra113 wrote:
    I think I covered everything directly or indirectly. Been fun.


    Thanks for the long reply, it's been fun here as well
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [48]Nov 7, 2010
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    taxcat11 wrote:

    May I suggest that although vampires, werewolves, wendigos etc. start out human with the standard issue human soul; the process of becoming a supernatural monster damages the soul in such a way that it can no longer "fit" in Heaven or Hell. Which is interesting because prior tothis I would have assumed that monsters ended up in Hell. Because of the evil stuff they tend to do. But somebody is obviously suggesting that it is not fair to hold made supernatural monsters to the same standard as your natural "evil 'cause I wanna be" human. So where does this leave Madison (werewolf girl)? Inquiring minds would like to know. Had she managed to hang on to her human soul or was it too late? Obviously Crowley figures that monsters will naturally side with demons rather than angels. Me, I would think they would prefer their independence from either side, just like devas. Personally, I wasn't that impressed with Heaven, mostly because Tessa was right about it. Friends & family were not reunited. I can't see spending eternity separated from everybody with just your memory of them to keep you company unless you got lucky enough to soul bond with somebody. Nor were you allowed to befriend anybody new to you. Really it was more like a no kill animal shelter, when you think about it. The vast wilds of Purgatory is looking more appealing by the minute, even if you do have to fight off the zombie hordes for time to time. At least you haven't got angels & demons bossing you around. And you can hang with your werewolf pack or try and make friends with the vampires or see what it's like to shuffle with zombies. Who knows, you might actually like it.

    Well, the average person probably never reaches a point of self awareness enough to realize that they're just reliving the past with copies of their friends and family, they probably just relive the memory and go with it. I wouldn't be too quick to sign up for Purgatory, according to myths it's not such a good place to be and add in that it's crawling with monsters (and if you're hunter monsters with a personal grudge) that just makes it worse.

    Maybe Purgatory is place where the monsters are clense of their monsterness and reverted back to who they were before and from there can be assigned to one place or another.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [49]Nov 7, 2010
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    WCSU1987 wrote:

    I am a bit lost. Big G created us or sort of according to the Supernatural world. Big L revolted and took a few angels in the Supernatural world? Then the demons were then created. So do you think there would be a creator in Purgatory? If this creator did create everything else in the Supernatural world do they just come from Purg.? Other question few seasons back Sam was brought back by supposedly Crowley. What is the difference between bringing Sam back now compared to the last time?

    It IS possible the mother of all monsters created Purgatory and spawned all monsters (or perhaps corrupted certain early humans into the Alphas) and that she's there in charge of the monster afterlife. In fact gotta say I like that idea a lot.

    Sam wasn't brought back by Crowley he was brought back by another Crossroads Demon and Sam later killed in a failed attempt to get Dean out of his contract and the diffrence is that Sam wasn't in Hell much less in Lucifer's cage and that's all the diffrence.
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    DougLangley

    [50]Nov 7, 2010
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    [/QUOTE]Sam wasn't brought back by Crowley he was brought back by another Crossroads Demon and Sam later killed in a failed attempt to get Dean out of his contract and the diffrence is that Sam wasn't in Hell much less in Lucifer's cage and that's all the diffrence. [/QUOTE] Anyone thinking Death is involved somewhere? Was that not the only Horseman left?

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [51]Nov 7, 2010
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    Well I do enojoy doing this and I will TRY and keep it shorter.

    I suspect it HAS to be either Balthazar, Death or the Mother of all monsters. At this point it's even money but then you have to look into motives. As I said Balthazar may be trying to restore some kind of status qou or establish himself as something diffrent. He SEEMS to be trying to become a Crossroads Angel so the idea he would seek out the (then) King of the Crossroads to learn the tricks of the trade AND elevate HIM to King of Hell in exchange seems plausable. It's also possible, as I said, that Balthazar sees Hell under Crowley as more controllable and that he would be able to calm things down and restablish order out of the choas. It's also possible that the longer the world remains broken the closer it gets to totally falling apart so getting it back in order ASAP is important. All of reality could be ripped apart by this situation. As for Death, he's older than just about anything (even God, maybe)he SEEMS to be kinda aloof and above it all and doesn't really care much about the day to day Earth stuff. Still, it could be that this broken world is a greater threat to everything beyond (a domino effect of sorts) or perhaps he ruels Purgatory and is trying to keep it out of this mess by keeping it hidden, or perhaps when he was locked up it was relocated and he wants to get back home for some reason. He DID demand of Dean that he allow Sam to jump in the pit and stay there (perhaps setting up a perfect ally). As for the mother of all monsters she's a mystery right now so we can't really say anything about that except it would an elabrate way to arrange a family reunion. Yeah Casey did say that about Yellow Eyes but then again all that point to is his being master of demons on Earth (and not even all of them) and that he kept them on point and directed in a way that demons can't seem to do on their own. Still, it doesn't mean he ruled Hell itself (although if not him then who, were Lucifer and/or Lilith running thing in their absence).

    Well, IF there were any such hauntings by Crowley's son it would have been in Scotland and that's a bit out of their terriory, not to mention the episode was intended to be all about Bobby and he didn't have time to go out there and do all that, still he PROBABLY found something in his research about it and just brought the ghost to him rather that the otherway around.

    No likely not bars but then again likely some kind of soul trap or some such and thus having little or no hold on the flesh and blood. I also ment to mention before that lore is filled with stories of people who walk into Hell (body and all) and walk back out again (it's not easy but it's doable). Also, I SHOULD say that prision is perfect, by their very nature there are flaws, anything that can go in can come out in one way or another. I dunno, I still suspect that perhaps Sam's not compleate and not just becasue of his soul. I actually have the same issue with how they present zombies on "Supernatural". I mean TRADITIONALLY zombies are mindless and mute but we've seen on "Supernatural" that they're pretty much like people just without a soul and thing for killing. To me I would say that Sam is a zombie right now we just need better defintion on where the mind ends and where the soul begins and how they can be seperated.

    Well, we don't know how EXACTLY the world is broken or what the full effects are. So far we know that werewolves aren't tied to the lunar cycle any more, that Djinn can enter populated areas and not hiding out alone in ruins and so forth but we don't know EXACTLY what it all adds up YET. Yes, the mother SHOULD be intresting as long as it doesn't turn out to be Lisa or something so they can force her back in the story somehow.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [52]Nov 7, 2010
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    DougLangley wrote:


    Sam wasn't brought back by Crowley he was brought back by another Crossroads Demon and Sam later killed in a failed attempt to get Dean out of his contract and the diffrence is that Sam wasn't in Hell much less in Lucifer's cage and that's all the diffrence. [/QUOTE] Anyone thinking Death is involved somewhere? Was that not the only Horseman left?

    [/QUOTE]Yeah I do. As I've said either him or Balthazar or the Mother of all monsters is behind Crowley and everything.

    At this point take your pick.
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    ARealGenius007

    [53]Nov 7, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    It occurs to me that gramps is likely doing this becasue John and Mary are in Purgatory and he's trying to get them out.

    Mary supposedly perished fighting a poltergeist but if there's another layer of afterlife for spirits (where they go when a hunter destroys them for example) it would be there so if she's anywhere it would be there.

    John clawed his way out of Hell and helped Dean kill Yellow Eyes then faded away, also a canidate for being there as well.

    That is his reward and the pic he was looking at was likely an old pic of Mary or maybe even a wedding photo he got from somewhere (since he wasn't around for the real deal).


    I really shouldn't have this forum set as my homepage, it's very distracting. I like your theory, but why wouldn't Samuel tell the boys flat out? They would do anything for their mother and since Samuel knows just how deeply Dean cares from when he went back in time (Yes, Samuel was possessed at the time but many possessed people still know whats going on)I would think he would want him helping to free his daughter. Whatever the reasons I hope this is why because it would mean Samuel isn't such a d'bag, though I kinda get the feeling Samuel is going to die by the end of this season, I don't know why it's just a feeling.
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    basenji529

    [54]Nov 7, 2010
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    Purgatory: Hell is the anti-purgatory in Supernatural mythos. Purgatory is where righteous souls go to be purged of their evil. Hell is where evil souls go to be tortured, and in the Supernatural univerese, all the good leaves them, turning them into demons. Remember what happened to Dean?


    Oh, I just noticed Sam's name is meaningful. Sammael is the angel of death. And Sam is the only mortal who can permanently kill a demon.

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    libra113

    [55]Nov 7, 2010
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    ARealGenius007 wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    It occurs to me that gramps is likely doing this becasue John and Mary are in Purgatory and he's trying to get them out.

    Mary supposedly perished fighting a poltergeist but if there's another layer of afterlife for spirits (where they go when a hunter destroys them for example) it would be there so if she's anywhere it would be there.

    John clawed his way out of Hell and helped Dean kill Yellow Eyes then faded away, also a canidate for being there as well.

    That is his reward and the pic he was looking at was likely an old pic of Mary or maybe even a wedding photo he got from somewhere (since he wasn't around for the real deal).


    I really shouldn't have this forum set as my homepage, it's very distracting. I like your theory, but why wouldn't Samuel tell the boys flat out? They would do anything for their mother and since Samuel knows just how deeply Dean cares from when he went back in time (Yes, Samuel was possessed at the time but many possessed people still know whats going on)I would think he would want him helping to free his daughter. Whatever the reasons I hope this is why because it would mean Samuel isn't such a d'bag, though I kinda get the feeling Samuel is going to die by the end of this season, I don't know why it's just a feeling.
    Maybe he's planning to sacrifice himself to do it and he doesn't want them to save him or to try and intefear by taking his place. It also might be a condition of the situation that they not be told. He's clearly not telling anyone what he's doing to it's probably the latter.
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    sinjaceheroes

    [56]Nov 7, 2010
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    basenji529 wrote:


    Purgatory: Hell is the anti-purgatory in Supernatural mythos. Purgatory is where righteous souls go to be purged of their evil. Hell is where evil souls go to be tortured, and in the Supernatural univerese, all the good leaves them, turning them into demons. Remember what happened to Dean?


    Oh, I just noticed Sam's name is meaningful. Sammael is the angel of death. And Sam is the only mortal who can permanently kill a demon.



    Umm, thats not what the Supernatural Purgatory is at all. O_o They just explained that its the place where monsters go after they die. Its their afterlife. So, I don't understand what you mean. :/


    As for Sam's name, his name is Samuel. By your reasoning his name could also mean, Samhain whom the show turned into a demon, even though its a celebration. o.o


    By the way, since Sam is all dark and doesn't care about moral things, I'm guessing the only reason he doesn't use his demonic powers, is because he doesn't have them anymore. And I doubt that Crowley (if it was him) could have been able topurposelyrevived his body without the demon blood. So, what happened there? O_O

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    dpebbleson

    [57]Nov 7, 2010
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    Hahaha, sinjaceheroes, as always your signature is hilarious! None at all, yeah right... Though they are cleverly spread across the seasons!!

    I think you might be onto something with the demonic powers. Though we are yet to see Sam against a demon, I think. Or maybe they are somehow tied into his anger, which he also lacks, lacking all emotions.

    I have to note that he did smile when Dean was turned into a vampire, but that could have been a smile of satisfaction that his plan of finding the nest was working.
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    sinjaceheroes

    [58]Nov 7, 2010
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    Hahaha, sinjaceheroes, as always your signature is hilarious! None at all, yeah right... Though they are cleverly spread across the seasons!! I think you might be onto something with the demonic powers. Though we are yet to see Sam against a demon, I think. Or maybe they are somehow tied into his anger, which he also lacks, lacking all emotions. I have to note that he did smile when Dean was turned into a vampire, but that could have been a smile of satisfaction that his plan of finding the nest was working.


    Yep. As I see, SPN is establishing that souls are not what keeps us alive, but our emotions, since Sam is clearly alive--but as you said, lacking all emotions. So, while he is alive, he is not exactly human, as what makes us humans and not animals are our morality and emotions.


    I agree that his smile was the result of a plan coming to fruition. Satisfaction, and not happiness.


    And thanks, I try my best.


    What do you think of my Mother idea?

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    Copioli

    [59]Nov 7, 2010
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    I've also though Samuel was working with Crowley because Mary (and probably John) are in purgatory. But I have serious issues with the idea of a demon (even a mega-powerful one) bringing back a person from death. I think they should have some inside help. Balthazar perhaps?

    I was disturbed too by the idea of Cass not noticing Christian was possesed. I wonder if Sam and Dean would decide to visit Chuck the Prophet. I imagined Sam could have try to do so during his year without Dean.
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    libra113

    [60]Nov 7, 2010
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    Hahaha, sinjaceheroes, as always your signature is hilarious! None at all, yeah right... Though they are cleverly spread across the seasons!!

    I think you might be onto something with the demonic powers. Though we are yet to see Sam against a demon, I think. Or maybe they are somehow tied into his anger, which he also lacks, lacking all emotions.

    I have to note that he did smile when Dean was turned into a vampire, but that could have been a smile of satisfaction that his plan of finding the nest was working.
    I hadn't really thought about the power thing but he may have burned them out before or maybe, as you suggest, they're based on emotions and without emotions he's powerless. That smile has self satisfaction written all over it (at least the way I remember it).

    I also wonder if he might sometimes 'put on' reactions or try to fake emotional responses (especially before anyone knew he didn't have a soul).

    A lot of what we're seeing might be more habit than real emotion.
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