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Official Discussion Thread: Family Matters (possible spoilers)

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    basenji529

    [101]Nov 10, 2010
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    On Lovecraft, I remember my first "Lovecraft episode" was a Ghostbusters episode where a portal to another dimension (with a demon head saying "Do not open until doomsday." repeatedly) was inside the New York City subway system. The 90s, though, were the golden age of Lovecraft in children's shows. Most of the time, however, these were BLAMs. (No foreshadowing, no subsequent mention of it.) ReBoot was the first one I saw that actually wasn't. But of course, with hackers personifying the Internet as Shub-Internet, Beastof a Thousand Processes, Eater of Characters, Avatar of Line Noise, and Imp of Call Waiting;what did you expect? My cousin showed me an episode of Digimon with the Digi-Deep Ones worshipping a Cthulhu-like entity in a world of black and white. (Later, he explained, a group of devil digimon try to enter that world.) Chrono Trigger had a truly Lovecraftian villain, however: Lavos simply lives off the planet's vital energies, awakening when the stars are right to go to another planet (and destroying most of the life on the planet in the process). Lavos wouldn't even notice humans, if they didn't try to wake him up so often. (Happens once in 12,000 BC and once in AD 600.)


    And right now, the Star Wars Expanded Universe is doing Abeloth, who is sort of the kind of thing Derleth would write: Like Cthulhu, but without the "alien-ness" that makes Cthulhu Cthulhu. (She's lived in a black hole cluster for thousands of years, but the Jedi destroying this ancient space station halfway across the galaxy woke her up. It just happens Luke kept his youngest students in that black hole cluster for safe keeping, so now they're all going nuts. And yes, there is a tentacle motif. She also for some reason tries to romance Luke twice.)


    So yes, Lovecraft has the same sort of fame in children's series that Steinbeck ("I'm going to love him and pet him and squeeze him and call him George.") did in the Warner Bros. era of cartoons.


    Oddly, television has been kinder to Lovecraft than the movies. (Though this is perhaps prophetic; HPL hated Hollywood. He once described how, upon seeing Frankenstein, he would've gone to sleep, if his sympathy for Mary Shelley didn't fill him with rage.) In movies, I think of The Dunwich Horror. A new female protagonist is added just for Hollywood's obsession with romance, and Wilbur Whateley is handsome. (In the short story, he's a hulking brute who looks fully mature by age 10 and keeps growing.) Also, we have these white men playing island natives who apparently want to rape the girl. Or something.


    On purgatory, in catechism, purgatory is a stopping place before going to heaven. It's where you're "purged" of your sins.

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    CaptainHarkness

    [102]Nov 10, 2010
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    There has to be more to Sam not having a soul. Didn't the crazy cat lady in 'YCHTT' say he wasn't human? I mean he is still technically Human isn't he? Just without a soul. I dunno maybe I'm looking into it too much. I'm hoping we can see some of what's going on with Heaven and the civil war, I'm super interested in that.

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    libra113

    [103]Nov 10, 2010
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    presario111 wrote:

    basenji529 wrote:


    I was thinking "Mother" could be something vaguely Lovecraftian. I mean, theoretically it has to be a bigger threat than Satan.


    If Death dies (with strange aeons, of course) I'll know I'm right.*


    *That's a reference to Lovecraft's short story, "The Call of Cthulhu". The in-universe book that is so rare every crackpot has a copy (and being fiction, every crackpot is partially right), the Necronomicon, gives us this charming couplet:


    That which is not dead can eternal lie
    Andwith strange aeons, even death may die


    Every SF/fantasy franchise seems to have a "Lovecraft episode".



    i would love it if they brought cthulhu or something like that into the story. in human form of course. i mean when i first read some of the lovecraft mythos he describes some of these beings including cthulu as being so terrifying that one look causes instant insanity to bad south park is already having its fun with cthulu. i mean everyone seems to think that monsters origin needs to be related to heaven or hell which they really dont the mother could be something as old or close to as old as god hell wut if its a creation of gods gone wrong like a prototype human or angel. but when i hear the word mother i think of gaia from greek mythology.


    p.s. does anyone think the reason the alphas dont want purgatory found is because opening it or entering it when ur not destined to go there is a bad thing

    No but HAD wondered if they're keeping mum to protect their mother.

    Like I said it MIGHT be that there's a mother of all monsters out there (someone who created the Alphas who then turned and created the rest of their own kind) and then she was banished to Purgatory to stop her making more Alphas and Purgatory was hidden to keep anyone from freeing her but by now she's free within Purgatory and the Alphas don't want ANYONE (espeically demons, angels or hunters) finding her and killing her or something.

    Yep, "South Park" is having a lot of fun with that subject at the moment and yeah the way the creatures of that myth are described they're pretty horrible and almost always seem to have multiple limbs and/or tenticals of some kind.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [104]Nov 10, 2010
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    CaptainHarkness wrote:

    There has to be more to Sam not having a soul. Didn't the crazy cat lady in 'YCHTT' say he wasn't human? I mean he is still technically Human isn't he? Just without a soul. I dunno maybe I'm looking into it too much. I'm hoping we can see some of what's going on with Heaven and the civil war, I'm super interested in that.

    Well, the question they asked in one of the ads was "is a man still man without a soul?"

    I guess PHYSICALLY yes, but not on a spiritual level. There is a school of thought that says that man is the only lifeform on Earth with a true soul and that it's the soul that seperates man from beast.

    To me he's a zombie. They showed us in "Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things" and "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid" that zombies in their world are basically just people without a soul and the lack of a soul makes them kill crazy and dangerous. Right now that's the way Sam is going so I suspect he's basically a zombie. Also, the zombies Death made were pretty close to where Sam is right now so I'm saying again that Death REALLY brought Sam back but is letting Crowley take the credit to keep his invovlment in all this a secret, for now.
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  • Avatar of basenji529

    basenji529

    [105]Nov 11, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    Yep, "South Park" is having a lot of fun with that subject at the moment and yeah the way the creatures of that myth are described they're pretty horrible and almost always seem to have multiple limbs and/or tenticals of some kind.


    Yeah, I keep thinking of Mother Hydra and Shub-Niggurath in particular, though.


    I like how the TV Tropes page just gave up and just said "Did You Just Index Cthulhu" on the Supernatural page. And then "DidWe Just List All The TropesAbout Cthulhu?" linking to "Overly Long Gag".

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [106]Nov 11, 2010
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    I seem to remember one short story where the creature had 1,000 arms, 1,000 legs and 1,000 heads all shifting into and out of perception consently so that they appeared to appear and dissppear. Some weird stuff.
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    mynameisjohnas

    [107]Nov 11, 2010
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    You know, it's sad when you have to argue with yourself about whether or not you're going go out on a Friday night or stay in and watch a TV show but every week I have the same delima. Go out, or stay in and watch SPN. Last week SPN lost and I wasn't able to catch it until this Wednesday when it aired on Space but I have to admit the anticipation probably made the show that much better to watch.


    I really do have to give it to the writers of this season. Despite some legitimate criticisms of the show this season, and despite being hesitant about the return to monster of the week episodes myself, I think the writers have done a supurb job of placating both sides of the SPN fan base (specifically those who like simple monster of the week episodes and those who like the larger epic story lines) and this episode was a perfect example of that. I noticed some people complaining they wanted the monster of the week episodes that they were promised back but I would actually argue that they're getting exactly that. What was this episode about after all- hunting the vampire alpha. God forbid the writers actually weave a larger story arch into the episode.


    With regards to the unfloding of the episode plot I have to say I thought it was ten times better than last weeks episode. The blurry intro from Sam's view and his interogation by Cas was fresh; the hunt for the vampire alpha (who is far cooler a villian than a lame truth telling monster), Sam's loyalty questions and the Purgatry revelation were well placed and the reveal that Christan is actually a demon was highly unexpected and delightful. Too bad though about his character considering either way he's dead now. Not sure what Samuel was thinking asking Crowley to remove the demon in him since for all extensive purposes once the demon leaves all Christan is going be left with is a broken neck. Also, I wonder how well Gwen is going to work with Samuel now that he's working with a demon who ordered the possesion of the man I'm assuming was her husband. I ask because I seem to remember Samuel implying the that Gwen and Christan were a couple in "Two and a Half Men" when he asked if they were still trying for a kid. Likewise, does anyone think Crowley might have been lying about having a demon in Christan for a while? I ask because after watching the episode a second time I noticed that Sam seems to over take him quite easily when him and Dean get in a scuffle with Samuel and Christan. If he was a demon at that time you'd think Christan would have tossed Sam across the room unless Sam has increased powers himself. Then again maybe that was just something the writers missed or maybe misdirection on the demon in Chistan's part to keep his identity hiden. Likewise, on top of Cas not saying anything about it, it's worth noting that despite being able to spot that Sam didn't have a soul, the vampire alpha also didn't seem to notice Christan was a demon. Maybe I'm just looking to deep into that but those were just a few things I've thought about since it was mentioned.


    On discussion of the ending, I have to admit I was a little disturbed by Sam's reaction to the revelation that Grandpa Campell is working with Crowley. Was it just me or did he seem to be showing way too much emotion for a guy who supposedly can't feel anything? In my opinion Sam is manipulating Dean with the promise of getting his soul back so Dean will play ball with Crowley's orders to collect the alphas. I say this because it's worth keeping in mind that Sam never said he wanted his soul back when Dean asked him about it. He just replied "what does that have to do with anything" ? This of course begs the question of why he would want Dean to play ball with Crowley but I wonder if he might also have the same motivations as Samuel- specifically that he also knows Mary and John are in purgatory. However, if we accept that theory it begs the question of why they wouldn't just let Dean in on the secret unless both Sam and Samuel are trying to protect Dean from making a sacrafice that they're going to have to make to getMary and Johnout as some of you have already suggested.


    On a different matter, I agree completley with Libra on the John and Mary in Purgatory theory. It makes complete sense that Samuel would be willing to come out from Heaven to try and find Mary (and hopefully John although we'll see about that) and it would be a perfect explanation for Samuel's motivation for helping Crowley. However, like the majority of you, I don't know if I completley buy Crowley's explanation that he was the one who pulled Sam and Samuel back, even with his new position in Hell. While I could see Crowley taking someone out of Hell (although maybe not the cage) getting them out of Heaven is a completely different bag of tricks all together. Since when can a demon, whatever his position in Hell be, take a soul out of Heaven? I could certainly see him convincing Samuel to come out to save his daughter, but that would mean he would have had to have had access to Heaven in the first place. The only two explantions I can think of for his explanation are that there is more to Crowley than has yet been explained or he is working with an angel who talked to Samuelon his behalf which is something I'll get to further below.


    Lastly, I'm wondering if Purgatory is where angels go when they die as well. Seems like a crappy reward for serving God, not to mention a huge metaphysical debate regarding the death of spiritual beings, but then again if they don't have souls it would be the logical place for them to go given the explanation the vampre alpha gave.


    JibbyThomas wrote:
    I got one small doubt though.....Crowley told that Christan's been a demon for a very long time....Castiel can tell straightaway if a person is possesed by a demon rite? He did it with Ruby....So, when he was done checking Samuel for his soul and Christan walked in, how come he dint point out that Christan was a demon??


    Nice catch. It could just be like Libra said because he didn't want to Christan to know he had been outed and that he just got distracted before he could mention anything. However, I don't buy that. Leaving the brothers alone in the room with a demon is one hell of a big risk to take and the only logical reason I can think of that Cas wouldn't have thought it necessary to let the brothers know immediatley afterwards, besides being distracted by the civil war, is because there wasn't a demon in Christan at that time or because he already knew there was. I've stated this before but I think Cas and Crowley are actually working together because there is a civil war going on in not only Heaven but also Hell. One side is Crowely's which is trying to convince demons that a return of the apocalypse andLucifer would be bad given that Lucifer would want to wipe them all out along with humans. The other would be led by someone (perhaps Meg or one of the defeated horsemen maybe?) who is still under the delusion that Lucifer would give them a noteworthy place in his empire were he to succeed in his battle with Michael (after all, remember in "A Weekend at Bobby's", near the end of the episode, Crowley goes on a little rant about how annoying and difficult it is to teach demons new things). Likewise,consider that in "YCHTT" Cas notes that there are now "certain regretable things required of him". As of yet, since it's still too early in the season, this hasn't been explained but I believe it has to do with Cas being required to work with Crowley and I'm guessing that there are two reasons for this. One is that, given there could be a civil war going on in Hell, and that Crowley's side would want Lucifer to stay locked in the cage, Cas figures he has no other option than to back Crowley's power play to stay in charge of Hell despite his worries about him finding Purgatory. The second is that it is possible Cas has his own reasons for wanting to find Purgatory.


    Personally, if I were him there is a lot I would feel guilty about regarding what happened with the apocalypse. Building on from your theory Libra (about Mary and John being in purgatory) it's worth remembering that Cas was the angel that sent Dean back in time which led to the chain of events that caused Mary to make the deal with Azazel that set the stage for Lucifer to eventually walk free. I don't find it illogicall to assume Cas might harbor some guilt for being the angel that was used, unwittingly, to cause the chain of events which led to John and Mary's eventual demise. Likewise, going back to the idea about angels going to Purgatory, I wonder if it's possible Cas is hoping to find Anna there.


    After all, Cas still betrayed Anna even after she saved his life and this was despite Cas trying to have her killed in the middle of the fourth season. I remember reading an article about how tragic "The Song Remains the Same" made their relationship given that, ultimatley, it was Cas's betrayal of her that led to her demise as well. Maybe Cas is looking to reach Anna in Purgatory for closure or something of that nature.

    Edited on 11/11/2010 2:43pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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    mynameisjohnas

    [108]Nov 11, 2010
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    balefire47 wrote:


    I took a quick look and didn't see anyone else bring this up. If I missed it, my bad!



    The first thing that came to mind when I heard him say the Mother of All Monsters is Echidna from Greek mythology :



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echidna_(mythology)



    who is in fact known as the Mother of All Monsters.





    Now while mythology refers primarily to the classical monsters, such as chimera and sphinx and hydra and so on, it still may be a good fit for the season. Just my thoughts!



    -Steve




    Hmmm, certainly would be logical given where the SPN writers have gathered their inspiration for mythology from in the past. However,from a personal standpoint, I can't say I think the idea is very captivating. "Oh, lets ramdomly say there was a monster that created all alphas and then those alphas created all the monsters". It just seems like it would be too easy an answer in my opinion, although I'll freely admit you might end up being right in the end.


    Personally, after watching "Swan Song", I was always under the impression that God was responsible, at least to a degree, for the existence of monsters. That may seem like a stange thing to say but, going to back to the free will debate, I always remember Lucifer's comments to Michael when they were about to fight that if God is omniscient, God must have meant to create Luciferso that he would rebel, and Michael to supposedly be a faithful son, and thus set all of the events of history into motion. As such, without the existence of monsters (and demons),it would have been impossible for Dean andSam to prove that free will did exist, which is what I think God wanted to have happen from the get go.


    That's not to say I think God was the "mother" the vampire alpha was refering to, but as I said, I don't think it will be as simple as there being an Alpha monsterfor all of the alphas.


    Either way thoughyour idea is a logical one. Keep em coming!

    Edited on 11/11/2010 3:59pm
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    MisfitChicks

    [109]Nov 11, 2010
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    So many wonderful theories about where SPN is heading this season.



    I do have one nit-pick. I might've missed it it, if it was addressed already. So forgive if this is a repeat question/statement.


    Grandpa Samuel is supposed to be a bad ass hunter, right?


    Why then, were the cousins not wearing or tattoo'd with charms like the boys are to prevent possession? Seems like a major flaw for a hunter of hiscaliber.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [110]Nov 11, 2010
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    MisfitChicks wrote:

    So many wonderful theories about where SPN is heading this season.



    I do have one nit-pick. I might've missed it it, if it was addressed already. So forgive if this is a repeat question/statement.


    Grandpa Samuel is supposed to be a bad ass hunter, right?


    Why then, were the cousins not wearing or tattoo'd with charms like the boys are to prevent possession? Seems like a major flaw for a hunter of hiscaliber.

    Well Sam and Dean didn't wear them until after Sam was possessed by Meg and we didn't seem them tattooed with them until "Jus in Bello" and there's not mention of any other hunter using them until Ellen said Jo had one in "Good God Y'all" so apprently it's not something that just any rank and file hunter would do. Further, if gramps was working with Crowley from day one he likely wouldn't put everyone on alert by having them suddenly wear charms and all that (plus it might be some kind of violation of their agreement since we have no idea what the conditions are), but overall I would say it's just not common practice amoung non-demon hunters. Still, if most of your family were killed by a demon I THINK you would but we have no idea if the Campbells KNEW a demon was behind all the deaths in their family.
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    dpebbleson

    [111]Nov 12, 2010
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    I have a theory, actually a speculation.

    In "Weekend at Bobby's" it was established that demons were "spirits with ego", therefore not too different from monsters.

    In this episode it was established that monsters go to Purgatory.

    So, if dead humans go to Hell or Heaven, and monsters go to Purgatory, where do dead demons go? Do dead demons (yay for alliteration!) go to Purgatory perhaps, since they are a kind of monsters themselves?

    Maybe a plan to overtake Purgatory could have something to do with all those dead demons residing there - like Lilith, Alastair, Azazel...

    And dead demons can be resurrected - Castiel was killed by Lucifer and was revived by God. And as Azazel said in that hallucination, God could resurrect anyone. Of course it doesn't need to be God, if there's some sort of dark, hidden ritual that can do it.

    And this entails this question: is anyone really dead in Supernatural-verse?
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    sinjaceheroes

    [112]Nov 12, 2010
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    I have a theory, actually a speculation. In "Weekend at Bobby's" it was established that demons were "spirits with ego", therefore not too different from monsters. In this episode it was established that monsters go to Purgatory. So, if dead humans go to Hell or Heaven, and monsters go to Purgatory, where do dead demons go? Do dead demons (yay for alliteration!) go to Purgatory perhaps, since they are a kind of monsters themselves? Maybe a plan to overtake Purgatory could have something to do with all those dead demons residing there - like Lilith, Alastair, Azazel... And dead demons can be resurrected - Castiel was killed by Lucifer and was revived by God. And as Azazel said in that hallucination, God could resurrect anyone. Of course it doesn't need to be God, if there's some sort of dark, hidden ritual that can do it. And this entails this question: is anyone really dead in Supernatural-verse?


    Well, as I said before, I think monster souls just go to a different dimension than human souls. They have purgatory and we have heaven and hell. Personally, I don't think dead demons or "vanquished" spirits go anywhere. They just cease.


    But I guess, it does make sense if Crowley wanted to revive dead demons. Is anyone truly dead in the SPN universe? I guess, when you are the supreme power--nothing is out of reach, which would bring up--can Death truly reap God when he can just bring back everyone that has died. Or could God revive himself after Death reaps him? Since he apparently came from nothing...


    Or is Death's reaping absolute?


    I guess, we have to wait until the true Boss comes to light to actually understand it all. :/


    6 minutes to see!

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [113]Nov 12, 2010
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    I have a theory, actually a speculation.

    In "Weekend at Bobby's" it was established that demons were "spirits with ego", therefore not too different from monsters.

    In this episode it was established that monsters go to Purgatory.

    So, if dead humans go to Hell or Heaven, and monsters go to Purgatory, where do dead demons go? Do dead demons (yay for alliteration!) go to Purgatory perhaps, since they are a kind of monsters themselves?

    Maybe a plan to overtake Purgatory could have something to do with all those dead demons residing there - like Lilith, Alastair, Azazel...

    And dead demons can be resurrected - Castiel was killed by Lucifer and was revived by God. And as Azazel said in that hallucination, God could resurrect anyone. Of course it doesn't need to be God, if there's some sort of dark, hidden ritual that can do it.

    And this entails this question: is anyone really dead in Supernatural-verse?
    Well, the first part is a logical conclusion. As for the second part, why would God bring back dead demons? I guess Death could (and might) given the proper motivation but I can't imagine what that would be at the moment (or why it would be required in the first place).
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    dpebbleson

    [114]Nov 13, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    I have a theory, actually a speculation.

    In "Weekend at Bobby's" it was established that demons were "spirits with ego", therefore not too different from monsters.

    In this episode it was established that monsters go to Purgatory.

    So, if dead humans go to Hell or Heaven, and monsters go to Purgatory, where do dead demons go? Do dead demons (yay for alliteration!) go to Purgatory perhaps, since they are a kind of monsters themselves?

    Maybe a plan to overtake Purgatory could have something to do with all those dead demons residing there - like Lilith, Alastair, Azazel...

    And dead demons can be resurrected - Castiel was killed by Lucifer and was revived by God. And as Azazel said in that hallucination, God could resurrect anyone. Of course it doesn't need to be God, if there's some sort of dark, hidden ritual that can do it.

    And this entails this question: is anyone really dead in Supernatural-verse?
    Well, the first part is a logical conclusion. As for the second part, why would God bring back dead demons? I guess Death could (and might) given the proper motivation but I can't imagine what that would be at the moment (or why it would be required in the first place).


    I didn't say he would, I just said he could. And if he could, then they must exist somewhere.

    Like sinjaceheroes I also thought they simply perish when killed, but now I'm not so sure, especially since they're being tagged as demons.

    So why would he bring them - "to spice things up" as YED said
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [115]Nov 13, 2010
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    Well you DO remember that Yellow Eyes wasn't real right? He was Dean's imagination created by the Djinn posion or venom or whatever it's called.

    Yeah I assume God COULD as, according to religion, he can do ANYTHING without limits of any kind.

    Yes I too assumed that demons killed (via the colt or Ruby's knife) or ghosts whoes remains were salted and burned were just destroyed but with the revelation about Prugatory that makes it much more likely that they simply go there as some kind of afterlife for non-human entities.
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    basenji529

    [116]Nov 13, 2010
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    Well, in the traditional conception of hell, the truly evil simply cease to exist. Which is kinda anticlimactic, since you would think they would have eternal punishment (invoking the Fate Worse Than Death and And I Must Scream tropes), but no....

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    dpebbleson

    [117]Nov 13, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well you DO remember that Yellow Eyes wasn't real right? He was Dean's imagination created by the Djinn posion or venom or whatever it's called.

    Yeah I assume God COULD as, according to religion, he can do ANYTHING without limits of any kind.

    Yes I too assumed that demons killed (via the colt or Ruby's knife) or ghosts whoes remains were salted and burned were just destroyed but with the revelation about Prugatory that makes it much more likely that they simply go there as some kind of afterlife for non-human entities.


    Of course I remember! I was just quoting the sentence because it's cool, not because he was really brought up. I like quoting the show when I talk about it, it has that 'internal jokes' feel that way.

    So while Azazel was not real, my point was that hallucination (or Dean's subconscious) had a point - if God could bring angels he could bring demons. I'm not saying he would, nor do I expect something like that.

    As I said, I thought demons perished, the purgatory does open possibilities of that kind if they really meant it when they said demons were 'spirits with ego'.

    However, what's interesting is that Alpha vampire knows where Purgatory is, while demons, who are supposed to go there, don't. Maybe they don't go there after all, and it's a small hole in the show's mythology that I'm here exploiting for my theories.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [118]Nov 13, 2010
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    Well the only way that demons would know where Purgatory is (espeically given that it's apprently been lost at some point) if they were there and then came back, which (as far as we know) no demon has done yet.

    As for the vampire Alpha knowing where it is it certainly appears that Crowley (or someone) THINKS they all know but hasn't had any luck with getting any of them to talk.

    Maybe they REALLY do know for some reason or maybe whoever just THINKS they know due to their age. Maybe the ONLY ones who REALLY know where Prugatroy is are those who have been around since the start, including the Alphas.

    That means the only ones who know would PROBABLY be: God, maybe a select few archangels, elder demons (like Lilith, whoes dead)and the Alphas.

    What I wonder is why the information was lost? Was it lost to keep something locked there forever or was it maybe relocated for the same reason?
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  • Avatar of lachlan_j_g

    lachlan_j_g

    [119]Nov 29, 2010
    • member since: 03/24/05
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 250

    I would like to know how Castiel didnt pick up that Christian was a demon - I thought that angels could sense them, based on previous episodes. also, I just watched Lucifer to his vessel that he couldn't bring people back from heaven - if Lucifer couldn't do it, how could Crowley. I know he is the 'King of Hell' - it just seems like he is superpowered - even stronger than Lucifer and Micheal. Maybe that's why he wants purgatory so he can get stronger?

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  • Avatar of basenji529

    basenji529

    [120]Nov 29, 2010
    • member since: 03/12/09
    • level: 15
    • rank: Ginsu Knife
    • posts: 1,935

    IIRC, Castiel is cut off from heaven because of his disagreements with Zecheriah. At least I think so.


    I personally would've chosen Tabris to be Castiel's name. Angel of free will, and with all the ho yay between him and Dean, it doubles as an Evangelion reference. (Is there anyone who does not have some subtext with Dean, though?)

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