Supernatural Forums

Wednesday 9:00 PM on The CWBetween Seasons

Official Discussion Thread: Frontierland (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of lachlan_j_g

    lachlan_j_g

    [41]Apr 25, 2011
    • member since: 03/24/05
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 250

    CaptainHarkness wrote:


    This episode really didn't disappoint. The only things I could've used more of were Samuel Colt and the Phoenix. I find it especially interesting that the Phoenix was married to a human woman. It goes to show not all the monsters in the world are evil.



    totally agree; some mythical creatures are noble and wouldn't kill people for the sake of it. a phoenix would definately fit that description

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [42]Apr 25, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    sinjaceheroes wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    I just had a horrible thought. What if Cas has been behind it all from the start and this major weapon is Eve herself? Sick her on Raph on his side then, hopefully, bring her to heal when she's done so she doesn't go too far. Of course the latter part would be what would scare EVERYONE and would probably go horribly wrong. Oh and about the bit you did in spoiler coding IF I saw the ad right your interperation is a bit wrong. It's actually Eve in another form.


    Yeah, I got that. I read the episode summary somewhere and I guess they got it wrong somehow. xD


    Ehh, I don't know about Eve and Cas. I guess it could be possible, RIGHT NOW, anything having to do with Eve is possible because we know NOTHING about her.


    I seriously want some Eve back story, my patience is running thin. :/


    And I know Adam (the "first" man) has to come into play somehow.... Why bring Eve if not to bring Adam eventually? It makes even less sense than what we know now, which is nothing. xD


    Can you sense some bitterness from me?

    Not sure I understand your first remark but okay then.

    The way I was thinking was: Cas goes to Crowley and makes a deal to make him King of Hell on two condtions (1) He HAS to find Purgatory once he takes over AND he has to keep their deal a secret.

    Then he tracks Balthazar and make an agreement with him to get ahold of the weapons he stole, knowing one of them can either control or destroy Eve.

    Meanwhile, he KNOWS that Eve's followers would take advantage of the Heavenily war and the near end of the world to release her (perahps he even, in some way encouraged it).

    Meanwhile, he's charging his control device/weapon with human souls and waiting for her to be freed and make her move.

    It's a calaculated risk becasue she creates monsters and who knows what her first move will be but if Cas is despeate enough (and clearly he is) then it might be a risk he would be willing take.

    Just a thought.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Sirius452

    Sirius452

    [43]Apr 25, 2011
    • member since: 03/10/07
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 1,061

    My guess is now that purgatory is open Cas is offering those in it a pass into heaven in exchange for their souls. Maybe demons too.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of dragon22a

    dragon22a

    [44]Apr 26, 2011
    • member since: 04/23/05
    • level: 32
    • rank: Whammy!
    • posts: 2,044
    libra113 wrote:
    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    I just re-watched the episode and I came across a bit of a tidbit. when the colt first surfaced in season 1, it was with a hunter called Daniel Elkins. and the owner of the bar was a man named Elkins. coincidence?

    I caught that too. He didn't seem like he was much in the know but he could be related. I actually had a theory once that Elkin's family were keepers of the Colt and hid it away to keep the demons from finding it and opening the gate.


    The Colt was dropped in the town at the end of the episode so maybe the bartender Elkins found the gun and kept it after seeing what it did to the Phoenix, Realizing the existence of the supernatural and keeping the gun as defense against it and beginning his families history as hunters. He then passed it down his family which led to Daniel. When Colt came to the town looking for the gun and the ashes he did not find it and assumed that Sam and Dean kept the gun. Or he let Elkins keep it because he viewed it as a curse.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [45]Apr 27, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    Sirius452 wrote:

    My guess is now that purgatory is open Cas is offering those in it a pass into heaven in exchange for their souls. Maybe demons too.

    Do most (if any) of the things in Purgatory even have souls?
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [46]Apr 27, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    dragon22a wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    I just re-watched the episode and I came across a bit of a tidbit. when the colt first surfaced in season 1, it was with a hunter called Daniel Elkins. and the owner of the bar was a man named Elkins. coincidence?

    I caught that too. He didn't seem like he was much in the know but he could be related. I actually had a theory once that Elkin's family were keepers of the Colt and hid it away to keep the demons from finding it and opening the gate.


    The Colt was dropped in the town at the end of the episode so maybe the bartender Elkins found the gun and kept it after seeing what it did to the Phoenix, Realizing the existence of the supernatural and keeping the gun as defense against it and beginning his families history as hunters. He then passed it down his family which led to Daniel. When Colt came to the town looking for the gun and the ashes he did not find it and assumed that Sam and Dean kept the gun. Or he let Elkins keep it because he viewed it as a curse.
    Well, I don't know if bartender Elkins REALLY saw enough to just blindly start beleaving in the supernatural and becoming a hunter.

    HOWEVER, it could be that he found the gun and ended up hooking up with Colt later on and Colt became his mentor of sorts and they worked together and then it became an Elkins family tradition.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of yutg25

    yutg25

    [47]Apr 27, 2011
    • member since: 01/18/11
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 205

    Do you think the ash will work?


    If I know this show it will be as useful as the Michael's Sword thing of season 5.



    BUT IF IT IS TO WORK


    I think they should mixed it in with shotgun shells. Its not like Dean can get close enough to douse mommy in the the ash as is.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [48]Apr 27, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    yutg25 wrote:

    Do you think the ash will work?


    If I know this show it will be as useful as the Michael's Sword thing of season 5.



    BUT IF IT IS TO WORK


    I think they should mixed it in with shotgun shells. Its not like Dean can get close enough to douse mommy in the the ash as is.

    Well, that's the REAL issue now. Seems, by all accounts, it will work but then they were saying the same thing about the Colt and Lucifer.

    Then even if it DOES work the question will be HOW to use it. The obvious choice would be to sprinkle her with it. The best way would be to rig up some way to drop it on her like lure her to a certain spot, pull a rope and drop it down on her like pig blood on Carrie at the prom, but who knows if she will fall for that or if they can even swing it.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of sinjaceheroes

    sinjaceheroes

    [49]Apr 28, 2011
    • member since: 01/11/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 1,817

    Maybe the ashes is just ingredient one, or part one of the actual weapon. I would think it very stupid and anticlimactic if the ashes turn out to have the same effect on Eve that water has on the Wicked Witch of the West. Or the aliens in Signs.


    I mean, come on, please.


    I do think the ashes will turn out to be just another forgotten thing, like the knife and the Colt. It's like, yup, we have it, now, let's make it harder!


    I'm sure the ashes will be stolen or the bros will fail at sprinkling them or they'll be tricked.


    But I do know that ashes will not be the downfall of Eve. Not really. I think they are in the story as a way to kill her. I mean, it's almost confusing when they say in the same episode, "only the ashes from a phoenix can kill her, but a phoenix can't be killed, but we can kill it with the gun that can kill anything but archangels! But hey....instead of going through time and possibly lose you there, why not just use the gun that can kill anything but archangels?"


    Because it will be too easy. So, the Colt doesn't work on Eve because she is above demons and monsters (I'm just hitting in the dark here). She is not a demon, so the knife won't work. And the ashes will through some chain of events not be used.


    See how this works?


    EDIT: On a separate note, do you guys think that there is a Wicked Witch of the North and Wicked Witch of the South? It's been bugging me for years!

    Edited on 04/28/2011 6:53am
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of yutg25

    yutg25

    [50]Apr 28, 2011
    • member since: 01/18/11
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 205

    Cuz you know she is the mother of all I think it is a possibility that even the phoenix called her mommy


    exactly of course the easiest route is


    "Dear Castiel the Mother of Freakin all is out here could I maybe borrow an Archangel's blade or one of the many heavenly weapons your keeping in your coat just smote her skinny ass I'm sure you got the juice for it..."


    Wouldn't that work...

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of sinjaceheroes

    sinjaceheroes

    [51]Apr 28, 2011
    • member since: 01/11/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 1,817

    Too easy. Not enough drama. Plus, no Dean as a cowboy.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of lachlan_j_g

    lachlan_j_g

    [52]Apr 28, 2011
    • member since: 03/24/05
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 250

    sinjaceheroes wrote:


    Too easy. Not enough drama. Plus, no Dean as a cowboy.



    plus no Dean dressed in a blanket lol

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [53]Apr 28, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    sinjaceheroes wrote:

    Maybe the ashes is just ingredient one, or part one of the actual weapon. I would think it very stupid and anticlimactic if the ashes turn out to have the same effect on Eve that water has on the Wicked Witch of the West. Or the aliens in Signs.


    I mean, come on, please.


    I do think the ashes will turn out to be just another forgotten thing, like the knife and the Colt. It's like, yup, we have it, now, let's make it harder!


    I'm sure the ashes will be stolen or the bros will fail at sprinkling them or they'll be tricked.


    But I do know that ashes will not be the downfall of Eve. Not really. I think they are in the story as a way to kill her. I mean, it's almost confusing when they say in the same episode, "only the ashes from a phoenix can kill her, but a phoenix can't be killed, but we can kill it with the gun that can kill anything but archangels! But hey....instead of going through time and possibly lose you there, why not just use the gun that can kill anything but archangels?"


    Because it will be too easy. So, the Colt doesn't work on Eve because she is above demons and monsters (I'm just hitting in the dark here). She is not a demon, so the knife won't work. And the ashes will through some chain of events not be used.


    See how this works?


    EDIT: On a separate note, do you guys think that there is a Wicked Witch of the North and Wicked Witch of the South? It's been bugging me for years!

    Well, I would think if the research says ONLY the ashes of a Phoniex will kill Eve that means that ONLY the ashes of a Phoneix will kill Eve (unless whoever wrote it did so BEFORE the Colt or the knife exsisted OR was unaware of them).

    I'm the ashes will at least play SOME role but there's likely more to it than just sprinkling them on her and having her go bye, bye. Maybe Dean can blow them in her face Sandman style (hey the Sandman comics ARE one of the inspiriations of the show and the reason we had a female Reaper, since in Sandman Death is a woman).

    As for the witches I actually read the original 12 Oz books Baum originally wrote and there are four witches: the West and her sister the East are evil, the witch of the south is Glinda the good witch, I don't recall who the witch of the north is/was but I THINK she was good as well.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [54]Apr 28, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    yutg25 wrote:

    Cuz you know she is the mother of all I think it is a possibility that even the phoenix called her mommy


    exactly of course the easiest route is


    "Dear Castiel the Mother of Freakin all is out here could I maybe borrow an Archangel's blade or one of the many heavenly weapons your keeping in your coat just smote her skinny ass I'm sure you got the juice for it..."


    Wouldn't that work...

    I suspect the archangel blades only work on archangles. It's a common misconception that these weapons are based on power (i.e. if it's powerful enough killed creature A then surely it can kill creature B or C) HOWEVER, I suspect the weapons are more specialized than that (i.e. the archangle blades only work on archangles becasue they exploit some inheriant weakness that archangels have). The only known exceptions are the Colt and the blade that seem to be pretty broad spectrum weapons, but not all purpose.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of BarryWeen3

    BarryWeen3

    [55]Apr 28, 2011
    • member since: 09/28/05
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 2,145

    libra113 wrote:
    sinjaceheroes wrote:


    Maybe the ashes is just ingredient one, or part one of the actual weapon. I would think it very stupid and anticlimactic if the ashes turn out to have the same effect on Eve that water has on the Wicked Witch of the West. Or the aliens in Signs.


    I mean, come on, please.


    I do think the ashes will turn out to be just another forgotten thing, like the knife and the Colt. It's like, yup, we have it, now, let's make it harder!


    I'm sure the ashes will be stolen or the bros will fail at sprinkling them or they'll be tricked.


    But I do know that ashes will not be the downfall of Eve. Not really. I think they are in the story as a way to kill her. I mean, it's almost confusing when they say in the same episode, "only the ashes from a phoenix can kill her, but a phoenix can't be killed, but we can kill it with the gun that can kill anything but archangels! But hey....instead of going through time and possibly lose you there, why not just use the gun that can kill anything but archangels?"


    Because it will be too easy. So, the Colt doesn't work on Eve because she is above demons and monsters (I'm just hitting in the dark here). She is not a demon, so the knife won't work. And the ashes will through some chain of events not be used.


    See how this works?


    EDIT: On a separate note, do you guys think that there is a Wicked Witch of the North and Wicked Witch of the South? It's been bugging me for years!


    Well, I would think if the research says ONLY the ashes of a Phoniex will kill Eve that means that ONLY the ashes of a Phoneix will kill Eve (unless whoever wrote it did so BEFORE the Colt or the knife exsisted OR was unaware of them). I'm the ashes will at least play SOME role but there's likely more to it than just sprinkling them on her and having her go bye, bye. Maybe Dean can blow them in her face Sandman style (hey the Sandman comics ARE one of the inspiriations of the show and the reason we had a female Reaper, since in Sandman Death is a woman). As for the witches I actually read the original 12 Oz books Baum originally wrote and there are four witches: the West and her sister the East are evil, the witch of the south is Glinda the good witch, I don't recall who the witch of the north is/was but I THINK she was good as well.


    The two witches of the East and West were wicked while the two witches of the North and South are good when The Wizard of Oz begins. Glinda was the South Witch, the North Witch wasn't named until Baum himself named her Locasta in his stage version of The Wizard of Oz. There actually was a Wicked Witch of the South until Glinda overthrew her and became the guardian of the South. So it stands to reason that there probably was also a Wicked Witch of the North.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [56]Apr 28, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    Yeah, pretty much what I said except I didn't remember the other evil witch or the name of the one in the North (guess that didn't make the original 12 books ).

    I have to say the movie would have been better if it stuck closer to the original "Wizard of Oz" book becasue there are a lot of really good details that got lost in the translation.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of smegmag

    smegmag

    [57]Apr 28, 2011
    • member since: 10/16/10
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 165
    libra113 wrote:
    dragon22a wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    I just re-watched the episode and I came across a bit of a tidbit. when the colt first surfaced in season 1, it was with a hunter called Daniel Elkins. and the owner of the bar was a man named Elkins. coincidence?

    I caught that too. He didn't seem like he was much in the know but he could be related. I actually had a theory once that Elkin's family were keepers of the Colt and hid it away to keep the demons from finding it and opening the gate.


    The Colt was dropped in the town at the end of the episode so maybe the bartender Elkins found the gun and kept it after seeing what it did to the Phoenix, Realizing the existence of the supernatural and keeping the gun as defense against it and beginning his families history as hunters. He then passed it down his family which led to Daniel. When Colt came to the town looking for the gun and the ashes he did not find it and assumed that Sam and Dean kept the gun. Or he let Elkins keep it because he viewed it as a curse.
    Well, I don't know if bartender Elkins REALLY saw enough to just blindly start beleaving in the supernatural and becoming a hunter.

    HOWEVER, it could be that he found the gun and ended up hooking up with Colt later on and Colt became his mentor of sorts and they worked together and then it became an Elkins family tradition.


    Colt mentions Elkins by name in the journal something about Elkins had sought him out several times with questions but he hadnt talked, so they probably knew each other fairly well and possibly over the ensuing years developed a friendship. Despite his protestations of retirement, Colt probably trailed Sam back to town, witnessed the shootout and maybe them disappearing into thin air. he had to gather the phoenix ashes fairly quickly before someone swept them up or they blew away. And again despite his protestations of retirement I cant believe he'd just let the Colt(his masterpiece)be lost in a gunfight in the street. Also he was still uber conscientious in forwarding the ashes to Sam thru time and space.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [58]Apr 28, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    Well yeah, AFTER all was said and done they probably met and Colt ended up writing thoes lines.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of smegmag

    smegmag

    [59]Apr 28, 2011
    • member since: 10/16/10
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 165
    libra113 wrote:
    Well yeah, AFTER all was said and done they probably met and Colt ended up writing thoes lines.


    He wrote the lines about Elkins April 1860 a year before the shoot out. However, maybe they both witnesssed the shootout and the boys disappearing into thin air. If Elkins saw that maybe his questions became more insistent and Colt finally answered, hence the beginning of their real friendship.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [60]Apr 28, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    smegmag wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Well yeah, AFTER all was said and done they probably met and Colt ended up writing thoes lines.


    He wrote the lines about Elkins April 1860 a year before the shoot out. However, maybe they both witnesssed the shootout and the boys disappearing into thin air. If Elkins saw that maybe his questions became more insistent and Colt finally answered, hence the beginning of their real friendship.
    Hard to imagine that he would have written them before. Still, I guess it points to a prior encounter.

    Of course the notes they found had Colt take credit for hunting and killing the Phoniex so I guess it's sort of a self edited version of events.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.