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Official Discussion Thread: Live Free or Twi-Hard (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of Kitanishi

    Kitanishi

    [21]Oct 23, 2010
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    I'm thinking that there are multiple behind-the-scenes games going on:

    One is run by Samuel, who most likely believes Sam is on his side. Campbels are bagging Alphas for whatever reason they are doing it. Obviously they have some sort of higher-up who is asking them to do that.

    Second is run by Alphas, who are obviously building some kind of army for whatever purpose.

    Third is run by the whole Haven Civil war.

    And the last is run by Sam himself as he is clearly hiding stuff from Samuel and having his own ideas on certain things. I would not be surprised if Sam would betray both Samuel's side and Dean's side at some point.
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  • Avatar of LordSothe

    LordSothe

    [22]Oct 23, 2010
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    Well, I wasn't as impressed with this episode as some of you were, mainly because the cure for vampirism seemed like an asspull. That's exactly the kind of thing that, if it did exist, you'd think they'd have heard about it by now -Logically, the Hunters who knew about it would want to spread the word to other hunters. That they didn't even try to justify it after previously having established it as uncurable really bothers me.


    I think most of the main points of this episode have been touched on by now, but there is one thing I don't think has been brought up yet: Sam wanted Dean to get turned so that they could have a man on the inside. But Sam, who had been attacked by another vampire moments earlier, could just as easily have let himself get turned. Now, why risk Dean not getting turned, not complying with Sam's plan after he was, or just flat out killing himself when he could have just let that vamp turn him and do it himself? Was this just a new level of selfishness on Sam's part, or is there some other reason he didn't (or couldn't) do it himself?

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    dman_dustin

    [23]Oct 23, 2010
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    LordSothe wrote:


    Well, I wasn't as impressed with this episode as some of you were, mainly because the cure for vampirism seemed like an asspull. That's exactly the kind of thing that, if it did exist, you'd think they'd have heard about it by now -Logically, the Hunters who knew about it would want to spread the word to other hunters. That they didn't even try to justify it after previously having established it as uncurable really bothers me.



    Except Samuel really brought up the point, that there is only a cure if you haven't fed. What is the likelihood that any of the other "turned" people haven't fed on anyone (drank blood) at the time.


    It didn't feel like it came out of nowhere. There are many instances where as long as you don't commit that one act, you can still be saved. I hate bring it up since people likely don't like the show (and will likely say anything out of the show is made up) but even still in the show charmed there was a two episode plot point about Paige, if she committed a great act of evil in the "window of opportunity" she would become a bad witch with no hope of turning her good.


    And this is really not that different (other than being a different show, etc, etc). And I don't see how there's a "conditional cure" means that it is curable because once you drink blood you're pretty much screwed, prepare to get your head cut off. And I don't see how a conditional cure would've even come up in the past since even if they were aware of it, do they have enough information, and can they actually cure said hypothetical person in time?


    It's still pretty incurable, there just happens to be a window of opportunity. That doesn't sound like it contradicts anything in the past, since I'm pretty sure the times they met with a just turned vampire they already fed (then again I don't remember every episode).

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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [24]Oct 23, 2010
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    An average episode, somewhat rushed, and with the new cure that was kind of unbelievable. One would think that Gordon would've known about it, especially since he was specializing in vampires. Oh well.

    Sam Winchester is a douchebag! He actually let his brother become a vampire! Yeah, he knew there was a cure, but he didn't say that to Dean, which means he was happy with Dean remaining a vampire. Wow.


    mynameisjohnas wrote:

    1-Did anyone else almost think Sam seemed a tad excited when Dean was being turned?



    I also thought that. It probably went according to his evil plans of evil : )

    mynameisjohnas wrote:

    2-Also, it's probably nothing, but did anyone else notice that Sam didn't answer Dean when asked what the last time was they had sat down and had a drink together?



    Noticed that as well! A pinnacle of indifference!

    mynameisjohnas wrote:

    3-I'm curious as to the whole black out experienced by the vampires when Dean and the pack leader were wrestling. One would assume it was the Alpha who caused it, but then the question becomes why he would want to have Dean left alive. Add if he did, why would he have allowed the pack leader to send all the other vampires in the nest after Dean once he had awoken?



    Interestingly, Alpha communicates with them via telepathy. For a moment I thought vampires were religious : ) I didn't get why was the black out necessary. Maybe for Dean to join the communion with the Unholy Father?

    Also in that final confrontation between Dean and the 600 years old vampire - I had some impression that the vampire told him something else we weren't shown on screen.
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  • Avatar of scottd2242

    scottd2242

    [25]Oct 23, 2010
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    Anybody else think all this monster stuff is Raphaels way to restart the apocalypse?

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  • Avatar of SohiHien

    SohiHien

    [26]Oct 23, 2010
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    This episode actually wasn't bad, the cure also sorta makes sense but someone was right in pointing out that gordon should have known about it since he was a vampire expert. Sam is messed up. Thats all I can say, he seemed morbidly excited about tthe violence involved with the vampire turning Dean. He also answers questions rather blank faced and saying things like "of course" (who talks like that!? not them!) I'm glad that Samuel seems to be looking at Sam like he is messed too. Next weeks ep looks like we might figure out just what is with Sam and MORE CAS!!!
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  • Avatar of vellarod

    vellarod

    [27]Oct 23, 2010
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    dpebbleson wrote:


    Also in that final confrontation between Dean and the 600 years old vampire - I had some impression that the vampire told him something else we weren't shown on screen.


    I agree hmm
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  • Avatar of chris684

    chris684

    [28]Oct 23, 2010
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    Sort of a new theory after this show - Hell changed Sam in some way (maybe it was the soul, maybe it was something else), and sent him back up to earth with a mission (to get these alpha monsters and in return for something Sam wants, maybe his soul back). Heaven is nervous about seeing Sam sent back and sends back Samuel to keep an eye on him. Samuel is wondering about Sam's obsession with Alphas, so he gets his group studying and hunting them as well. Samuel is watching Sam to see if Sam passes some point of no return and turns into a monster.


    I think at this point Sam's still on the balance. I wouldn't be surprised if Samuel sent the monsters after Dean in the season premiere to bring Dean back into the game - so that Sam had Dean's influence back in his life.


    On Sam watching Dean turn, I don't think it was only about wanting an inside man with the vamps. I think it was also partly motivated by a part of Sam that wants Dean to be a monster like Sam. It didn't seem planned. His eyes also lit up when Dean started drinking the cure and it looked for a minute like it wasn't working. Part of him wants Dean to know what it's like to feel like a monster and to crave blood.


    On the whole monster recruitment drive, maybe there's a war brewing between demons and monsters? Crowley is reorganizing hell, and maybe this war is his doing. Sam is working for the demons and Samuel is working for Heaven.


    Sam made a comment in an earlier episode that he was "motivated." Motivated by what? That sounds like a Crowley term (the guy who is "in sales," "is invested").

    Edited on 10/23/2010 7:21am
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  • Avatar of smegmag

    smegmag

    [29]Oct 23, 2010
    • member since: 10/16/10
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    The Good:


    Just the right amount of Twilight references.


    Intermixing of new and old elements, despite uneveness I am intrigued and will be watching (or maybe recording--we are talking Friday)


    Holding their own in the ratings


    Finally, Dean knows somethings wrong with Sam.


    Bobby and Castiel in the next ep.


    Lisa putting Dean on her reject list.



    The Bad:


    The single episode treatment of Dean's vampirism was very rushed, but I do understand the reasoning, how could they drag it out when Dean would have to feed.


    Samuel is morally superior to Sam. I know its part of their story arc, but ugh--just ugh!


    These new emo-vamps sure go down easy. Who cares if they raise an army? Hell, I could take 'em!


    A slight let down after the Bobby episode, but I can live with that.



    The Ugly:


    Sam, this category is all you. Baby boy has some serious ugly going on. (single tear)


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  • Avatar of puppybunny1

    puppybunny1

    [31]Oct 23, 2010
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    I totally agree with someone who said that Sam came back without a "Soul". I love the fact that Jared/Sam was given more leeway to impress us with his acting skills. I cannot wait until next week with more Bobby and Castiel. I think that Castiel knows what is wrong with Sam.



    Also, I think that the bright light is someone higher up controlling the vampires. So there is a Rogue Angel loose playing with humanity.


    I am not crazy about Grandpa Campbell. He is an unneeded extra (IMO).



    I love the vampire phenomenon jabs. "Lautner, he is a werewolf" or "How many Ts in Pattinson?" "Rob and Kristen". This is the vampire craze in Supernatural style.

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  • Avatar of Kudorigami

    Kudorigami

    [32]Oct 23, 2010
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    Like many pointed out the cure for vampire treatment felt like a deus-ex machina. Until you really think about it. It is very rare to encounter a vampire that hasn't drank yet. You'd possibly have to be with the person already while he's changing because the time window is probably only like 4 hours before he drinks. And Gordon might have considered him a vampire expert, but who knows maybe he never actively did research for treatments against vampirism(believing there are none). He probably only studied for ways to hunt and kill them. So one could argue that drinking human blood is part of the process of becoming a full-fledged vampire. So Dean was still lingering in this process and could be pulled out.


    And besides, it's not like it changes up a lot. It's not like Dean and Sam are going to think twice with every vampire they kill, thinking they might not have drank yet and we are able to save them.

    Edited on 10/23/2010 9:35am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [33]Oct 23, 2010
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    CJJohanson wrote:

    Another great episode this season and I'm glad we didn't get a good look (or any as a matter of fact) at the Alpha, just a mention of him/her pulling strings, which makes him/her scarier.


    I'm one of the few that like Lisa and Ben and I always like the way Dean acts around them, it makes sense for Dean to not just sever ties completely. After the events of this episode I see a strain coming in the relationship between Lisa and Dean, which is inevitable. I think the writers are going to use the opportunity togrant Libra's wish and get rid of Lisa and Ben, haha.


    I couldn't help but keep saying SAM! over and over again while he was watching Dean get turned. The thing that creeped me out was the one second smirk that crossedSam's face when he saw what was was happening. Also scary? That Grandpa was also kind of creeped about what Sam had done, it's one of the few moments this season that didn't make me question Grandpa's motives this season. At least he wasn't in on it, would've been been too predictable.


    The fun jabs at the current vampire phenomena was hilarious as well and I'm glad they didn't keep playing the jokes, just a few referances and then on with the story. Although the entire first sequence was hilarious and I couldn't help but smile the entire way through.

    Well I gotta think this episode illistrates that Lisa and Ben are no more (or less) safe with or without Dean in their lives. They sent Jimmy's family away to keep them safe and that's worked, it's all a matter of how the writers WANT to take it. After showing up and freaking Lisa out then shoving Ben into a wall I GOTTA think she's reached her breaking point, but I guess we will see.

    Gramps is the voice of reason... will wonders never sceace.

    Yep, that grin was creapy and once again it's clear Sam's NOT right.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [34]Oct 23, 2010
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    Kitanishi wrote:
    I'm thinking that there are multiple behind-the-scenes games going on:

    One is run by Samuel, who most likely believes Sam is on his side. Campbels are bagging Alphas for whatever reason they are doing it. Obviously they have some sort of higher-up who is asking them to do that.

    Second is run by Alphas, who are obviously building some kind of army for whatever purpose.

    Third is run by the whole Haven Civil war.

    And the last is run by Sam himself as he is clearly hiding stuff from Samuel and having his own ideas on certain things. I would not be surprised if Sam would betray both Samuel's side and Dean's side at some point.
    Is it possible that Balthizar is the higher up and is using the Campbells to gather the Alphas, perhaps to sell or trade for one reason or another? As an angel he COULD bring them back, sure his's persona non grada in Heaven but since everyone THINKS he's dead and isn't looking it might not be so hard to slip in and swipe a single soul (or maybe the whole Campbell team for that matter).

    Sam could be using them for the same reason but planning on using the Alphas for a diffrent reason (depending on who or what he is now).

    The Alphas could be building an army to reassurt themselves in the world and protect themselves from being collecting.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [35]Oct 23, 2010
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    LordSothe wrote:

    Well, I wasn't as impressed with this episode as some of you were, mainly because the cure for vampirism seemed like an asspull. That's exactly the kind of thing that, if it did exist, you'd think they'd have heard about it by now -Logically, the Hunters who knew about it would want to spread the word to other hunters. That they didn't even try to justify it after previously having established it as uncurable really bothers me.


    I think most of the main points of this episode have been touched on by now, but there is one thing I don't think has been brought up yet: Sam wanted Dean to get turned so that they could have a man on the inside. But Sam, who had been attacked by another vampire moments earlier, could just as easily have let himself get turned. Now, why risk Dean not getting turned, not complying with Sam's plan after he was, or just flat out killing himself when he could have just let that vamp turn him and do it himself? Was this just a new level of selfishness on Sam's part, or is there some other reason he didn't (or couldn't) do it himself?

    Well, since most hunters apprently thought vampires were almsot entirely extinct at this point (remember John never even taught Sam and Dean about them for that reason) and the cure seems to have been uncertain to work it's likely no one really knew about it. It's also possible that the journel it was in was the only one and with Grampa dead for all this time the journel may have been out of circulation.

    As for the rest: it could be selfishness or it could be that whatever Hell made Sam into made him immune to such things.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [36]Oct 23, 2010
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    An average episode, somewhat rushed, and with the new cure that was kind of unbelievable. One would think that Gordon would've known about it, especially since he was specializing in vampires. Oh well.

    Sam Winchester is a douchebag! He actually let his brother become a vampire! Yeah, he knew there was a cure, but he didn't say that to Dean, which means he was happy with Dean remaining a vampire. Wow.

    mynameisjohnas wrote:

    1-Did anyone else almost think Sam seemed a tad excited when Dean was being turned?



    I also thought that. It probably went according to his evil plans of evil : )

    mynameisjohnas wrote:

    2-Also, it's probably nothing, but did anyone else notice that Sam didn't answer Dean when asked what the last time was they had sat down and had a drink together?



    Noticed that as well! A pinnacle of indifference!

    mynameisjohnas wrote:

    3-I'm curious as to the whole black out experienced by the vampires when Dean and the pack leader were wrestling. One would assume it was the Alpha who caused it, but then the question becomes why he would want to have Dean left alive. Add if he did, why would he have allowed the pack leader to send all the other vampires in the nest after Dean once he had awoken?



    Interestingly, Alpha communicates with them via telepathy. For a moment I thought vampires were religious : ) I didn't get why was the black out necessary. Maybe for Dean to join the communion with the Unholy Father?

    Also in that final confrontation between Dean and the 600 years old vampire - I had some impression that the vampire told him something else we weren't shown on screen.
    Who says Gordon didn't know? He was so blinded by his hate that even if he did know he wouldn't have used it.

    His reaction would have been to kill Dean on the spot no if's and's or but's and I doubt a possible cure would have swayed him. Gordon was a whack job, remember?
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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [37]Oct 23, 2010
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    An average episode, somewhat rushed, and with the new cure that was kind of unbelievable. One would think that Gordon would've known about it, especially since he was specializing in vampires. Oh well. Sam Winchester is a douchebag! He actually let his brother become a vampire! Yeah, he knew there was a cure, but he didn't say that to Dean, which means he was happy with Dean remaining a vampire. Wow.
    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    1-Did anyone else almost think Sam seemed a tad excited when Dean was being turned?


    I also thought that. It probably went according to his evil plans of evil : )
    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    2-Also, it's probably nothing, but did anyone else notice that Sam didn't answer Dean when asked what the last time was they had sat down and had a drink together?


    Noticed that as well! A pinnacle of indifference!
    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    3-I'm curious as to the whole black out experienced by the vampires when Dean and the pack leader were wrestling. One would assume it was the Alpha who caused it, but then the question becomes why he would want to have Dean left alive. Add if he did, why would he have allowed the pack leader to send all the other vampires in the nest after Dean once he had awoken?


    Interestingly, Alpha communicates with them via telepathy. For a moment I thought vampires were religious : ) I didn't get why was the black out necessary. Maybe for Dean to join the communion with the Unholy Father? Also in that final confrontation between Dean and the 600 years old vampire - I had some impression that the vampire told him something else we weren't shown on screen.


    You know I didn't think of that when the scene occurred but I do have to agree looking back. Dean looked contemplative when Campbell and Sam found him resting with his feet on the pack leader's head which is yet another thing I liked about last night's show since it seems to be building up a fair amount of mystery for this season.


    As to all the grandpa Campbell hating going on from others here, I for one am glad to see his character back again. Personally, I love MP's acting and imo the writers are doing a good job at making his character 3 dimensional (case in point- his reaction to Sam's lack of honest concern for Dean's well being was well delivered and shows there are different levels that his presence is adding to the story line of the show). As such, I hope the writers don't write him out of any future episodes simply because of some negative fan reaction. In the end I guess it will depend on why he was brought back and how logical they make the explanation seem but given that this is SPN I don't have a problem with them not explaining his or Sam's return yet. We're still early in the season and the series usually makes a point of explaining such plot developments at some point down the line of a season.

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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [38]Oct 23, 2010
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    chris684 wrote:


    Sort of a new theory after this show - Hell changed Sam in some way (maybe it was the soul, maybe it was something else), and sent him back up to earth with a mission (to get these alpha monsters and in return for something Sam wants, maybe his soul back). Heaven is nervous about seeing Sam sent back and sends back Samuel to keep an eye on him. Samuel is wondering about Sam's obsession with Alphas, so he gets his group studying and hunting them as well. Samuel is watching Sam to see if Sam passes some point of no return and turns into a monster.


    I think at this point Sam's still on the balance. I wouldn't be surprised if Samuel sent the monsters after Dean in the season premiere to bring Dean back into the game - so that Sam had Dean's influence back in his life.


    On Sam watching Dean turn, I don't think it was only about wanting an inside man with the vamps. I think it was also partly motivated by a part of Sam that wants Dean to be a monster like Sam. It didn't seem planned. His eyes also lit up when Dean started drinking the cure and it looked for a minute like it wasn't working. Part of him wants Dean to know what it's like to feel like a monster and to crave blood.


    On the whole monster recruitment drive, maybe there's a war brewing between demons and monsters? Crowley is reorganizing hell, and maybe this war is his doing. Sam is working for the demons and Samuel is working for Heaven.


    Sam made a comment in an earlier episode that he was "motivated." Motivated by what? That sounds like a Crowley term (the guy who is "in sales," "is invested").




    Huh...interesting theories. They're complicated and yet quite simple in premise. For all the theories I've heard so far I wonder if Sam coming back without a soul is the most logical suggestion I've heard yet since it seems to fit with everything we've seen from him so far in season 6. In an interview at Comicon 2010 Jared was quoted as simply saying that "Sam is Sam" in this season so I guess we'll find out eventually either way.


    As far as Sam letting Dean be turned, while I do agree that aside from getting an inside man in the nest (which was the main suggestion hinted at in the episode even if Sam wouldn't admit it) there probably was something bigger afoot, I also agree that maybe a selfish motive was involved as well like you suggested. After all, throughout seasons 1-5 Dean was almost always on Sam's ass about his differences, abilities and addictions. Now that you mention it I almost wonder if Sam's smirk might have been purely personal in that he felt finally Dean might get a taste of what it was like to be not 100 percent human and in a perverted way might have hoped that would bring them closer together again.

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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [39]Oct 23, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    Who says Gordon didn't know? He was so blinded by his hate that even if he did know he wouldn't have used it.

    His reaction would have been to kill Dean on the spot no if's and's or but's and I doubt a possible cure would have swayed him. Gordon was a whack job, remember?


    Yeah, all options are open, but I'm 99% sure he didn't know. He panicked a lot, he was desperate, he was disgusted he became one of them. He didn't mention it, nobody mentioned it ever until this episode, so I'm pretty sure he didn't know. Yeah, he was a whack but still, he could've healed himself and gone after Dean afterwards. He is not so impulsive, he's more of a cruel planner.

    So while he may have known, I think they would have showed it somehow with his behaviour at least, or with some commentary of his or by some character. But since there is no such thing to ground the theory, I think not.

    mynameisjohnas wrote:
    As to all the grandpa Campbell hating going on from others here, I for one am glad to see his character back again. Personally, I love MP's acting and imo the writers are doing a good job at making his character 3 dimensional (case in point- his reaction to Sam's lack of honest concern for Dean's well being was well delivered and shows there are different levels that his presence is adding to the story line of the show). As such, I hope the writers don't write him out of any future episodes simply because of some negative fan reaction.


    I agree. He is not a likable character, but then again, that's the point. MP is playing him so we hate him every moment we see him, or at least intensely doubt his intentions. He is adding a lot of good acting to the show, and his ambiguity is actually great here.

    As for the fans: apart from Castiel who is almost universally loved, I could say that almost every other character who is not Sam and Dean and John is universally hated: from Bela, to Ruby (in whatever incarnation, there are those who hate S3 one and those who hate S4 one; and those that hate both), Lisa and Ben, then Jo (who I thought was a good character, but she was hated), to Ellen.

    Of all these I don't particularly like Lisa, but then again, I'm not the writer, and if they think she has a purpose in the show, I say we let them do it. It's their show, and fans are just rabid sometimes. I still can't get over Bela, who was an excellent character banished by fan-girls.

    Not everybody can be a writer in this world, not even a critic: but many obviously don't realize that.
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    mynameisjohnas

    [40]Oct 23, 2010
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    Well, except for Bobby of course. Nobody is allowed to hate Bobby. Cool


    Haha, and just for the record I do not hate Grandpa Campbell. I don't know if I trust him like you said, but I certainly don't hate him (although I haven't watched two and a half men yet so that may change after the fact). Hate is for the fan girls....damn fan girls.

    Edited on 10/23/2010 6:45pm
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