Supernatural Forums

Wednesday 9:00 PM on The CWBetween Seasons

Official Discussion Thread: My Heart Will Go On (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of jaredstar

    jaredstar

    [21]Apr 15, 2011
    • member since: 12/20/04
    • level: 1
    • rank: Weatherman
    • posts: 23
    so what are the changes in this new time line.

    1. the boys drive a mustang instead of an impala.

    2. the impala line of cars seems to have never existed.

    3. Cuba and Detroit are vacation destinations.

    4. selene dion never became big

    5. Jo and Ellen never died.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of lachlan_j_g

    lachlan_j_g

    [22]Apr 15, 2011
    • member since: 03/24/05
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 250

    but then, wouldn't the apocolypse still be on - because wasnt the Impala the key item which gave Sam back control over Satan?

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [23]Apr 15, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    Seems to be the case.

    Great episode. Shades of "Final Destination" and loved the bits of Greek mythology (I'm big on Greek Mythology).

    Anyone who complains about this one is just looking for stuff to complain about.

    Loved the whole bit with the song and Sam and Dean worrying about when or if they were gonna get killed. You would think they would be used to it by now.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [24]Apr 15, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    but then, wouldn't the apocolypse still be on - because wasnt the Impala the key item which gave Sam back control over Satan?

    Presumably in THAT reality it was fond family memories of their days in the family mustang.

    Triva tidbit it was originally going to be a mustang until a friend of Kripke's turned him on to making it an Impala.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of sinjaceheroes

    sinjaceheroes

    [25]Apr 15, 2011
    • member since: 01/11/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 1,817

    Well, I think of the biggest is Ellen and Bobby got MARRIED?! In what universe would that ever happen?!


    Actually, the first change was their license plate. It's the same as the original one: KAZ 2Y5.


    And I think they wanted to make a joke about Dean being more blunt and direct? Cause he would never act with an "innocent" the way he did with that lawyer douchbag. Yep, I just went all Charmed up in this forum.


    I don't understand why Castiel would need to MAKE new souls, I think there's about 7 billion right here....


    That fire dagger scene was amazing. Sam look truly scared.


    I think there's an entry for Atropos and her sisters. Apparently, Atropos is the janitor of the three. She fixes the small details, so, if her sisters are "bigger and badder" than her, then maybe they are the ones who think up the situations in the first place and then tell Atropos to go and put the skateboard in place?? O.o



    Oh, and in case people think the writing is no longer Kripke's domain, let me point out that SPN's Atropos, Fate, held a book in her hand with the fates of people. As to my knowledge no personification of Fate is depicted as such other than in Sandman, Neil Gaiman's greatest work of literature, according to most. And if there is one thing Kripke loves more than American Gods, is Sandman. Or so I read in an interview of his.


    I think it was a pretty nice episode overall.


    Long list of one liners that I'm sure are being uploaded to pages everywhere as I type.


    P.S. Finally, we see a shady side to Castiel!

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [26]Apr 15, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    Yeah but are thoes people going to mass die anytime soon. Presumably, Cas knew that Fate would off the new souls and they would (I guess mostly) got to Heaven and become part of the whole celestial process or whatnot.

    All and all it's WAY better than arranging some horrible event and taking out a bunch of people.

    As for the fates, I'v always been bad with their names but I do recall that one of them spins the threads of lives, one cuts the threads (deturmining lifespan) and the other would weave the threads into the tapastry of live (I guess that's our lady since that was supposed to fix their lives into the world and whatnot).

    There's a good deal about it in Peir's Anthony's "Incares of Immortality", especially in "With a Tangeled Skein" which is all about the fates. In fact one of them, new to the job, cuts the threads for the wrong end and causes a bunch of babies to die in a hospital nursery.

    Intrestingly, the licence plate thing kinda hints that Sam and Dean were never wanted by the law (which is why they changed them in the first place), as for Bobby and Ellen I guess maybe the loss of their first spouces brought them together, or maybe it was Rufus.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of presario111

    presario111

    [27]Apr 15, 2011
    • member since: 12/25/06
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 138

    i lloved the episode especially the scene were dean and sam r walking throught the park. the fact that they didnt kill altropos off makes me think they have planes for her later. my biggest question though is wouldnt it make more sense for fate to work for death not god?

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of KingofIPirates

    KingofIPirates

    [28]Apr 15, 2011
    • member since: 08/11/06
    • level: 32
    • rank: Whammy!
    • posts: 45,832
    Decent episode overall, it got pretty funny at times though the dialogue could've been better in some areas especially during the multitude of Fate cliches being used.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [29]Apr 15, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    presario111 wrote:

    i lloved the episode especially the scene were dean and sam r walking throught the park. the fact that they didnt kill altropos off makes me think they have planes for her later. my biggest question though is wouldnt it make more sense for fate to work for death not god?

    Not really. Death has control over death but God has control (or is supposed to) over everything.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of tvtome_xena321

    tvtome_xena321

    [30]Apr 15, 2011
    • member since: 04/24/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 2,526
    We'll the big difference was of course Bobby and Ellen, and I actually didn't mind that. They were great together.

    I wonder if we will see the adult and elder fates soon. Something is up with Cas, hes been so odd lately, hes hiding something. Why he need to create new souls.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of taxcat11

    taxcat11

    [31]Apr 15, 2011
    • member since: 11/14/08
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 216
    tvtome_xena321 wrote:
    We'll the big difference was of course Bobby and Ellen, and I actually didn't mind that. They were great together.

    I wonder if we will see the adult and elder fates soon. Something is up with Cas, hes been so odd lately, hes hiding something. Why he need to create new souls.


    Strangely enough Atropos is often protrayed as a crone, while her sisters Clotho (the spinner) is a maiden, and Lachesis (the weaver) is a matron. They are all the same age as they always worked together, and really are equal in power. Clotho creates life, Lachesis intertwines lives, and Atropos ends life. But Atropos did explain what Cas was up to. She said Cas was printing money. Just as Balthazar said earlier, souls are the only thing worth anything. In the afterlife, souls must be the equalent of gold - and using Murphy's Golden Rule - whoever has the gold makes the rules.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [32]Apr 15, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    tvtome_xena321 wrote:
    We'll the big difference was of course Bobby and Ellen, and I actually didn't mind that. They were great together.

    I wonder if we will see the adult and elder fates soon. Something is up with Cas, hes been so odd lately, hes hiding something. Why he need to create new souls.
    Because souls are important and he's losing the war.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of tvtome_xena321

    tvtome_xena321

    [33]Apr 16, 2011
    • member since: 04/24/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 2,526
    libra113 wrote:
    tvtome_xena321 wrote:
    We'll the big difference was of course Bobby and Ellen, and I actually didn't mind that. They were great together.

    I wonder if we will see the adult and elder fates soon. Something is up with Cas, hes been so odd lately, hes hiding something. Why he need to create new souls.
    Because souls are important and he's losing the war.




    still think theres alot more to Cas than meets the eye.
    taxcat11 wrote:
    tvtome_xena321 wrote:
    We'll the big difference was of course Bobby and Ellen, and I actually didn't mind that. They were great together.

    I wonder if we will see the adult and elder fates soon. Something is up with Cas, hes been so odd lately, hes hiding something. Why he need to create new souls.


    Strangely enough Atropos is often protrayed as a crone, while her sisters Clotho (the spinner) is a maiden, and Lachesis (the weaver) is a matron. They are all the same age as they always worked together, and really are equal in power. Clotho creates life, Lachesis intertwines lives, and Atropos ends life. But Atropos did explain what Cas was up to. She said Cas was printing money. Just as Balthazar said earlier, souls are the only thing worth anything. In the afterlife, souls must be the equalent of gold - and using Murphy's Golden Rule - whoever has the gold makes the rules.


    aww thanx, been ages since read any greek myths.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of smegmag

    smegmag

    [34]Apr 16, 2011
    • member since: 10/16/10
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 165
    sinjaceheroes wrote:

    gatoraderising wrote:
    Why is Fate going around and killing those people and not Death?


    Well, my guess is that since these people were saved by changing fate, or history is you will, then Fate got **** off and said, "Hell no! I said it goes this way dammit! Now die!!!!"


    And as we have learned from SPN's Death, everyone eventually dies, why should he lift a finger to accelerate it?



    A little time travelling conundrum:


    1- Balthazar goes back in time to save the Titanic after realizing that he didn't like the ending to the Titanic movie.


    2- He goes back in time and changes history, Titanic never sinks. Movie never gets made.


    3- Balthazar never goes back in time to change history because he has no purpose to do so.


    4- Mind melting paradox.


    But in the SPN universe this is codswallop and not important.



    I'm actually intrigued by how they are gonna work Fate and the Will of God.



    My guess is #3 and the paradox of #4 wouldn't happen because Angels operate outside of the linear time space continuum that humans operate in. For example, S&D could remember tonight's alternate time line only because Cas wanted them to remember.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of smegmag

    smegmag

    [35]Apr 16, 2011
    • member since: 10/16/10
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 165
    taxcat11 wrote:
    tvtome_xena321 wrote:
    We'll the big difference was of course Bobby and Ellen, and I actually didn't mind that. They were great together.

    I wonder if we will see the adult and elder fates soon. Something is up with Cas, hes been so odd lately, hes hiding something. Why he need to create new souls.


    Strangely enough Atropos is often protrayed as a crone, while her sisters Clotho (the spinner) is a maiden, and Lachesis (the weaver) is a matron. They are all the same age as they always worked together, and really are equal in power. Clotho creates life, Lachesis intertwines lives, and Atropos ends life. But Atropos did explain what Cas was up to. She said Cas was printing money. Just as Balthazar said earlier, souls are the only thing worth anything. In the afterlife, souls must be the equalent of gold - and using Murphy's Golden Rule - whoever has the gold makes the rules.


    I think souls are more like oil than gold--meaning their power is actual and not symbolic.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [36]Apr 16, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    Oh yeah Tv Tome I'm sure there's more to it than just Cas is losing the war and needs souls, just expalining what they're saying now and as for getting a large number of souls quickly it is better than causing mass distruction.

    Yeah, I'm sure souls are more like oil than gold. They must help keep things running in Heaven. Dean refurred to Heaven (in "Darkside of the Moon") as the Matrix and I suspect he more right than even he knew.

    Perhaps the souls in their Heaven's feed power to the engine that drives Heaven and the more indivigual Heavens a side controls the more power they have for the war.

    With Cas losing he must not have very many Heaven's under his control so he was trying to make more (in a sense print money) so he could tap their power.

    I suspect things are going WAY worse for Cas and his side than we have been told and I'm sure these side trips to help Sam and Dean are making it worse but that he just can't turn his back on them so he still shows up.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [37]Apr 16, 2011
    • member since: 05/02/08
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 121

    As I'm not sure what to think of this episode, since it had both positive and negative elements in it, I'll simply do a pros and cons write up again.


    The Good


    -I'm glad we had a return to and expansion of the civil war story line as it's probably my favorite part of this season. Gamble and the rest of the writing team seem to be writing a deadly intricate story arch and I'm interested to see how this one is going to be woven into the other individual archs. My only complaint is that I wish we would actually get to see what is going on in Heaven at some point by having a more Cas- centric episode the way they did with Bobby earlier on this season.


    -Balthezar. What a great character he has been for this season. The I.P Freely alias was priceless as was his excuse about hating the movie and song as an excuse for doing what he did. Given what we know of his character I actually believed the excuse until Fate outed Cas. -The effects were decent enough. The freeze frames were well done as were the 2 deaths that occurred. Likewise, and the explosion/transportation scene where the brothers ignited the gas filled room and were transported out by Cas just as they were being blown backwards was cool to watch.


    -Returning to the topic of free will and time travel was also a welcome visit and I'm glad the writers are taking more time expand upon the issues.


    The Bad


    -I despise Blondie and I despise that damned song. If I never have to hear anything from them again it will still be bad enough that I ever had to hear them in the first place.


    -I've said it before, but I'll say it again and that is SPN is very hit and miss for me when it comes to enjoying an episode and I believe this has to do with many different things including who is directing, writing, producing and making the choices for camera angels shots. I'm happy to say I've never come across a season that didn't have an extremely well written story arch for the audience to watch play out, but I have to admit I really do believe there are flaws that exist in the creation of certain individual episodes which effect how believable said single episode is to me. Basically, I try and watch every epiosde as if I was being introduced to it for the first time. As such, for me there are five elements which are usually over looked when describing any show which is catagorized as a first rate television series. Obviously having 3-dimnensional characters and a good story line come first and foremost, but I'd posit that the ahead qualities are pre-requisits needed to complete the predecessing elements as a full set in any mature show's repetior.


    The first is the setting and production/projection quality of that setting and the second has to do with CGI effects and budget allocation (something shows like Sanctuary sometimes fail on in both accounts in my opinion). The third has to do with the camera angels and camera settings in conjuction with the score used to film the different events being showcased to the audience. I say this because capturing scenes or occurances in a fresh and intense way can, for me anyways, elevate an episode above what was originally written in script (a good case in point would be the end of 5th episode of Sparticus: Blood and Sand where Sparticus and Crixus are battling Theocilies. Right before the end we are given a slow motion third person view of Crixus blinding Theocilies with the relflection of the sun off of his helemt as Sparticus charges in for an attack. As this is all being done there is a climaxing score made up of synth and a chior as to suggest the importance and significance of the scene to audience).The fourth and final aspect is how well the story line plays out within the above mentioned elements. I bring this all up because SPN most definatley has always had a great story line and great characters, but I find that it is kind of hit and miss on an episode to episode basis with regards the above elements. Sometimes it will simply have a boring monster of the week episode with little to no story arch advancement and absolutely no interesting set design or camera shots (All Dogs, Like a Virgin, etc). Other times it will have a great storyline that advances the over all story arch in combination with interesting settings and camera angels (see Caged Heat where Crowley is beating Crowly, Family Matters where the show starts of from Sam's blurry POV or Live Free or Twihard where a get a fade in and fade out of Sam and Samuel finding Dean sitting down after having slaughtered a nest of vampires and is using the head vamps head as a foot rest. The atmospheres are moody, the set are darkly and yet appropriatly lit and the over all story archs are advanced). Other times, while we may not have interesting camera shots or angles, we are given real looking sets and a great story line to follow (see "On the Head of a Pin). Other times still we might not great great looking sets or effects (AIS) but we are given great story lines advanmcements.


    To me this episode was an odd combination of both the positive and negative elements mentioned above. The picture quality almost seemed BBC-ish and most of the episode played out in a monster of the week fashion and yet there were positive elements to the show as well. The special effects were done well enough and the over all storyline was advanced quite a bit with the reveal about Cas and his use of souls to help him power his "war machine". I don't know...in the end to an extentI guess this could be acredited the writers who are trying to please both camps of fans- those who enjoy the monster of the week shows and those of us who want to focus on the bigger picture episodes.


    The Interesting




    -I'm not sure what to make of Fate's character. On one side she seemed a little too "monster of the week" to me. Likewise, I've been wondering what the point of creating her was when the writers could have simply used reapers against the survivors since we already know Death and his reapers don't really like others messing up "the natural order" of things. I agree with Presario regarding the question



    presario111 wrote:


    wouldnt it make more sense for fate to work for death not god?



    On the other hand, after thinking about the existence of Cupids, I suppose her character is a little more plausible given that angels, demons and Death all seem to have their own paradigms (or at least did) about how the universe is supposed to function and flow. If angels had lower lower class soldiers like Cupids doing thier work for them in the "love" department, I guess it makes sense that they'd have agents doing their work in the "death" department as well (even though only having three of them seems a little far fetched given how many deaths occur everyday unless the sisters are simply 3 out of a large group of "contractors" who help the angels do their work). Personally, I'd really like to see more explained about the relationship between Angels, Demons and Death and how they all (used to) work together (if they ever did). Maybe the difference between the Fate Sisters and reapers is that the Sisters simply create the catylst for death to occur, whereas reapers are the condouit used to bring soulsover to the other side. That being said, wasn't it a reaper in "Faith" from season 1 who was being used to kill people?


    -If angels can now create more humans, and thus souls, by altering the time line, what happens to the souls that were already in Heaven or Hell during the original timeline?

    Edited on 04/16/2011 3:27pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of lachlan_j_g

    lachlan_j_g

    [38]Apr 16, 2011
    • member since: 03/24/05
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 250

    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    As I'm not sure what to think of this episode, since it had both positive and negative elements in it, I'll simply do a pros and cons write up again.


    The Good


    -I'm glad we had a return to and expansion of the civil war story line as it's probably my favorite part of this season. Gamble and the rest of the writing team seem to be writing a deadly intricate story arch and I'm interested to see how this one is going to be woven into the other individual archs. My only complaint is that I wish we would actually get to see what is going on in Heaven at some point by having a more Cas- centric episode the way they did with Bobby earlier on this season.


    -Balthezar. What a great character he has been for this season. The I.P Freely alias was priceless as was his excuse about hating the movie and song as an excuse for doing what he did. Given what we know of his character I actually believed the excuse until Fate outed Cas. -The effects were decent enough. The freeze frames were well done as were the 2 deaths that occurred. Likewise, and the explosion/transportation scene where the brothers ignited the gas filled room and were transported out by Cas just as they were being blown backwards was cool to watch.


    -Returning to the topic of free will and time travel was also a welcome visit and I'm glad the writers are taking more time expand upon the issues.


    The Bad


    -I despise Blondie and I despise that damned song. If I never have to hear anything from them again it will still be bad enough that I ever had to hear them in the first place.


    -I've said it before, but I'll say it again and that is SPN is very hit and miss for me when it comes to enjoying an episode and I believe this has to do with many different things including who is directing, writing, producing and making the choices for camera angels shots. I'm happy to say I've never come across a season that didn't have an extremely well written story arch for the audience to watch play out, but I have to admit I really do believe there are flaws that exist in the creation of certain individual episodes which effect how believable said single episode is to me. Basically, I try and watch every epiosde as if I was being introduced to it for the first time. As such, for me there are five elements which are usually over looked when describing any show which is catagorized as a first rate television series. Obviously having 3-dimnensional characters and a good story line come first and foremost, but I'd posit that the ahead qualities are pre-requisits needed to complete the predecessing elements as a full set in any mature show's repetior.


    The first is the setting and production/projection quality of that setting and the second has to do with CGI effects and budget allocation (something shows like Sanctuary sometimes fail on in both accounts in my opinion). The third has to do with the camera angels and camera settings in conjuction with the score used to film the different events being showcased to the audience. I say this because capturing scenes or occurances in a fresh and intense way can, for me anyways, elevate an episode above what was originally written in script (a good case in point would be the end of 5th episode of Sparticus: Blood and Sand where Sparticus and Crixus are battling Theocilies. Right before the end we are given a slow motion third person view of Crixus blinding Theocilies with the relflection of the sun off of his helemt as Sparticus charges in for an attack. As this is all being done there is a climaxing score made up of synth and a chior as to suggest the importance and significance of the scene to audience).The fourth and final aspect is how well the story line plays out within the above mentioned elements. I bring this all up because SPN most definatley has always had a great story line and great characters, but I find that it is kind of hit and miss on an episode to episode basis with regards the above elements. Sometimes it will simply have a boring monster of the week episode with little to no story arch advancement and absolutely no interesting set design or camera shots (All Dogs, Like a Virgin, etc). Other times it will have a great storyline that advances the over all story arch in combination with interesting settings and camera angels (see Caged Heat where Crowley is beating Crowly, Family Matters where the show starts of from Sam's blurry POV or Live Free or Twihard where a get a fade in and fade out of Sam and Samuel finding Dean sitting down after having slaughtered a nest of vampires and is using the head vamps head as a foot rest. The atmospheres are moody, the set are darkly and yet appropriatly lit and the over all story archs are advanced). Other times, while we may not have interesting camera shots or angles, we are given real looking sets and a great story line to follow (see "On the Head of a Pin). Other times still we might not great great looking sets or effects (AIS) but we are given great story lines advanmcements.


    To me this episode was an odd combination of both the positive and negative elements mentioned above. The picture quality almost seemed BBC-ish and most of the episode played out in a monster of the week fashion and yet there were positive elements to the show as well. The special effects were done well enough and the over all storyline was advanced quite a bit with the reveal about Cas and his use of souls to help him power his "war machine". I don't know...in the end to an extentI guess this could be acredited the writers who are trying to please both camps of fans- those who enjoy the monster of the week shows and those of us who want to focus on the bigger picture episodes.


    The Interesting




    -I'm not sure what to make of Fate's character. On one side she seemed a little too "monster of the week" to me. Likewise, I've been wondering what the point of creating her was when the writers could have simply used reapers against the survivors since we already know Death and his reapers don't really like others messing up "the natural order" of things. I agree with Presario regarding the question



    presario111 wrote:


    wouldnt it make more sense for fate to work for death not god?



    On the other hand, after thinking about the existence of Cupids, I suppose her character is a little more plausible given that angels, demons and Death all seem to have their own paradigms (or at least did) about how the universe is supposed to function and flow. If angels had lower lower class soldiers like Cupids doing thier work for them in the "love" department, I guess it makes sense that they'd have agents doing their work in the "death" department as well (even though only having three of them seems a little far fetched given how many deaths occur everyday unless the sisters are simply 3 out of a large group of "contractors" who help the angels do their work). Personally, I'd really like to see more explained about the relationship between Angels, Demons and Death and how they all (used to) work together (if they ever did). Maybe the difference between the Fate Sisters and reapers is that the Sisters simply create the catylst for death to occur, whereas reapers are the condouit used to bring soulsover to the other side. That being said, wasn't it a reaper in "Faith" from season 1 who was being used to kill people?


    -If angels can now create more humans, and thus souls, by altering the time line, what happens to the souls that were already in Heaven or Hell during the original timeline?



    I think a Cas-centric episode is coming up if you look at the schedule. and you know it was Celine Dion, not Blondie, right? as for the original souls/timeline - they would have been in heaven/hell anyway when they died when the Titanic sunk - Balthazar changed history for the other souls down the bloodline

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [39]Apr 16, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    mynameisjohnas wrote:

    As I'm not sure what to think of this episode, since it had both positive and negative elements in it, I'll simply do a pros and cons write up again.


    The Good


    -I'm glad we had a return to and expansion of the civil war story line as it's probably my favorite part of this season. Gamble and the rest of the writing team seem to be writing a deadly intricate story arch and I'm interested to see how this one is going to be woven into the other individual archs. My only complaint is that I wish we would actually get to see what is going on in Heaven at some point by having a more Cas- centric episode the way they did with Bobby earlier on this season.


    -Balthezar. What a great character he has been for this season. The I.P Freely alias was priceless as was his excuse about hating the movie and song as an excuse for doing what he did. Given what we know of his character I actually believed the excuse until Fate outed Cas. -The effects were decent enough. The freeze frames were well done as were the 2 deaths that occurred. Likewise, and the explosion/transportation scene where the brothers ignited the gas filled room and were transported out by Cas just as they were being blown backwards was cool to watch.


    -Returning to the topic of free will and time travel was also a welcome visit and I'm glad the writers are taking more time expand upon the issues.


    The Bad


    -I despise Blondie and I despise that damned song. If I never have to hear anything from them again it will still be bad enough that I ever had to hear them in the first place.


    -I've said it before, but I'll say it again and that is SPN is very hit and miss for me when it comes to enjoying an episode and I believe this has to do with many different things including who is directing, writing, producing and making the choices for camera angels shots. I'm happy to say I've never come across a season that didn't have an extremely well written story arch for the audience to watch play out, but I have to admit I really do believe there are flaws that exist in the creation of certain individual episodes which effect how believable said single episode is to me. Basically, I try and watch every epiosde as if I was being introduced to it for the first time. As such, for me there are five elements which are usually over looked when describing any show which is catagorized as a first rate television series. Obviously having 3-dimnensional characters and a good story line come first and foremost, but I'd posit that the ahead qualities are pre-requisits needed to complete the predecessing elements as a full set in any mature show's repetior.


    The first is the setting and production/projection quality of that setting and the second has to do with CGI effects and budget allocation (something shows like Sanctuary sometimes fail on in both accounts in my opinion). The third has to do with the camera angels and camera settings in conjuction with the score used to film the different events being showcased to the audience. I say this because capturing scenes or occurances in a fresh and intense way can, for me anyways, elevate an episode above what was originally written in script (a good case in point would be the end of 5th episode of Sparticus: Blood and Sand where Sparticus and Crixus are battling Theocilies. Right before the end we are given a slow motion third person view of Crixus blinding Theocilies with the relflection of the sun off of his helemt as Sparticus charges in for an attack. As this is all being done there is a climaxing score made up of synth and a chior as to suggest the importance and significance of the scene to audience).The fourth and final aspect is how well the story line plays out within the above mentioned elements. I bring this all up because SPN most definatley has always had a great story line and great characters, but I find that it is kind of hit and miss on an episode to episode basis with regards the above elements. Sometimes it will simply have a boring monster of the week episode with little to no story arch advancement and absolutely no interesting set design or camera shots (All Dogs, Like a Virgin, etc). Other times it will have a great storyline that advances the over all story arch in combination with interesting settings and camera angels (see Caged Heat where Crowley is beating Crowly, Family Matters where the show starts of from Sam's blurry POV or Live Free or Twihard where a get a fade in and fade out of Sam and Samuel finding Dean sitting down after having slaughtered a nest of vampires and is using the head vamps head as a foot rest. The atmospheres are moody, the set are darkly and yet appropriatly lit and the over all story archs are advanced). Other times, while we may not have interesting camera shots or angles, we are given real looking sets and a great story line to follow (see "On the Head of a Pin). Other times still we might not great great looking sets or effects (AIS) but we are given great story lines advanmcements.


    To me this episode was an odd combination of both the positive and negative elements mentioned above. The picture quality almost seemed BBC-ish and most of the episode played out in a monster of the week fashion and yet there were positive elements to the show as well. The special effects were done well enough and the over all storyline was advanced quite a bit with the reveal about Cas and his use of souls to help him power his "war machine". I don't know...in the end to an extentI guess this could be acredited the writers who are trying to please both camps of fans- those who enjoy the monster of the week shows and those of us who want to focus on the bigger picture episodes.


    The Interesting




    -I'm not sure what to make of Fate's character. On one side she seemed a little too "monster of the week" to me. Likewise, I've been wondering what the point of creating her was when the writers could have simply used reapers against the survivors since we already know Death and his reapers don't really like others messing up "the natural order" of things. I agree with Presario regarding the question



    presario111 wrote:


    wouldnt it make more sense for fate to work for death not god?



    On the other hand, after thinking about the existence of Cupids, I suppose her character is a little more plausible given that angels, demons and Death all seem to have their own paradigms (or at least did) about how the universe is supposed to function and flow. If angels had lower lower class soldiers like Cupids doing thier work for them in the "love" department, I guess it makes sense that they'd have agents doing their work in the "death" department as well (even though only having three of them seems a little far fetched given how many deaths occur everyday unless the sisters are simply 3 out of a large group of "contractors" who help the angels do their work). Personally, I'd really like to see more explained about the relationship between Angels, Demons and Death and how they all (used to) work together (if they ever did). Maybe the difference between the Fate Sisters and reapers is that the Sisters simply create the catylst for death to occur, whereas reapers are the condouit used to bring soulsover to the other side. That being said, wasn't it a reaper in "Faith" from season 1 who was being used to kill people?


    -If angels can now create more humans, and thus souls, by altering the time line, what happens to the souls that were already in Heaven or Hell during the original timeline?

    Firstly, the song was perfect for the scene and it was a funny sequence.

    Two, if you use Reapers instead of Fate then the whole desinty and fate (little f) ascpect of the story is gone. Fate isn't just about who lives and who dies it's about the details and the bits inbetween birth and death and that was what was important here as well.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [40]Apr 16, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    As I'm not sure what to think of this episode, since it had both positive and negative elements in it, I'll simply do a pros and cons write up again.


    The Good


    -I'm glad we had a return to and expansion of the civil war story line as it's probably my favorite part of this season. Gamble and the rest of the writing team seem to be writing a deadly intricate story arch and I'm interested to see how this one is going to be woven into the other individual archs. My only complaint is that I wish we would actually get to see what is going on in Heaven at some point by having a more Cas- centric episode the way they did with Bobby earlier on this season.


    -Balthezar. What a great character he has been for this season. The I.P Freely alias was priceless as was his excuse about hating the movie and song as an excuse for doing what he did. Given what we know of his character I actually believed the excuse until Fate outed Cas. -The effects were decent enough. The freeze frames were well done as were the 2 deaths that occurred. Likewise, and the explosion/transportation scene where the brothers ignited the gas filled room and were transported out by Cas just as they were being blown backwards was cool to watch.


    -Returning to the topic of free will and time travel was also a welcome visit and I'm glad the writers are taking more time expand upon the issues.


    The Bad


    -I despise Blondie and I despise that damned song. If I never have to hear anything from them again it will still be bad enough that I ever had to hear them in the first place.


    -I've said it before, but I'll say it again and that is SPN is very hit and miss for me when it comes to enjoying an episode and I believe this has to do with many different things including who is directing, writing, producing and making the choices for camera angels shots. I'm happy to say I've never come across a season that didn't have an extremely well written story arch for the audience to watch play out, but I have to admit I really do believe there are flaws that exist in the creation of certain individual episodes which effect how believable said single episode is to me. Basically, I try and watch every epiosde as if I was being introduced to it for the first time. As such, for me there are five elements which are usually over looked when describing any show which is catagorized as a first rate television series. Obviously having 3-dimnensional characters and a good story line come first and foremost, but I'd posit that the ahead qualities are pre-requisits needed to complete the predecessing elements as a full set in any mature show's repetior.


    The first is the setting and production/projection quality of that setting and the second has to do with CGI effects and budget allocation (something shows like Sanctuary sometimes fail on in both accounts in my opinion). The third has to do with the camera angels and camera settings in conjuction with the score used to film the different events being showcased to the audience. I say this because capturing scenes or occurances in a fresh and intense way can, for me anyways, elevate an episode above what was originally written in script (a good case in point would be the end of 5th episode of Sparticus: Blood and Sand where Sparticus and Crixus are battling Theocilies. Right before the end we are given a slow motion third person view of Crixus blinding Theocilies with the relflection of the sun off of his helemt as Sparticus charges in for an attack. As this is all being done there is a climaxing score made up of synth and a chior as to suggest the importance and significance of the scene to audience).The fourth and final aspect is how well the story line plays out within the above mentioned elements. I bring this all up because SPN most definatley has always had a great story line and great characters, but I find that it is kind of hit and miss on an episode to episode basis with regards the above elements. Sometimes it will simply have a boring monster of the week episode with little to no story arch advancement and absolutely no interesting set design or camera shots (All Dogs, Like a Virgin, etc). Other times it will have a great storyline that advances the over all story arch in combination with interesting settings and camera angels (see Caged Heat where Crowley is beating Crowly, Family Matters where the show starts of from Sam's blurry POV or Live Free or Twihard where a get a fade in and fade out of Sam and Samuel finding Dean sitting down after having slaughtered a nest of vampires and is using the head vamps head as a foot rest. The atmospheres are moody, the set are darkly and yet appropriatly lit and the over all story archs are advanced). Other times, while we may not have interesting camera shots or angles, we are given real looking sets and a great story line to follow (see "On the Head of a Pin). Other times still we might not great great looking sets or effects (AIS) but we are given great story lines advanmcements.


    To me this episode was an odd combination of both the positive and negative elements mentioned above. The picture quality almost seemed BBC-ish and most of the episode played out in a monster of the week fashion and yet there were positive elements to the show as well. The special effects were done well enough and the over all storyline was advanced quite a bit with the reveal about Cas and his use of souls to help him power his "war machine". I don't know...in the end to an extentI guess this could be acredited the writers who are trying to please both camps of fans- those who enjoy the monster of the week shows and those of us who want to focus on the bigger picture episodes.


    The Interesting




    -I'm not sure what to make of Fate's character. On one side she seemed a little too "monster of the week" to me. Likewise, I've been wondering what the point of creating her was when the writers could have simply used reapers against the survivors since we already know Death and his reapers don't really like others messing up "the natural order" of things. I agree with Presario regarding the question



    presario111 wrote:


    wouldnt it make more sense for fate to work for death not god?



    On the other hand, after thinking about the existence of Cupids, I suppose her character is a little more plausible given that angels, demons and Death all seem to have their own paradigms (or at least did) about how the universe is supposed to function and flow. If angels had lower lower class soldiers like Cupids doing thier work for them in the "love" department, I guess it makes sense that they'd have agents doing their work in the "death" department as well (even though only having three of them seems a little far fetched given how many deaths occur everyday unless the sisters are simply 3 out of a large group of "contractors" who help the angels do their work). Personally, I'd really like to see more explained about the relationship between Angels, Demons and Death and how they all (used to) work together (if they ever did). Maybe the difference between the Fate Sisters and reapers is that the Sisters simply create the catylst for death to occur, whereas reapers are the condouit used to bring soulsover to the other side. That being said, wasn't it a reaper in "Faith" from season 1 who was being used to kill people?


    -If angels can now create more humans, and thus souls, by altering the time line, what happens to the souls that were already in Heaven or Hell during the original timeline?



    I think a Cas-centric episode is coming up if you look at the schedule. and you know it was Celine Dion, not Blondie, right? as for the original souls/timeline - they would have been in heaven/hell anyway when they died when the Titanic sunk - Balthazar changed history for the other souls down the bloodline

    Cool, a Cas episode would be great.

    The original poster was talking about the song playing when Sam and Dean where walking through the park, nervious about being killed. THAT was a Blondie song.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.