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Official Discussion Thread: My Heart Will Go On (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of Tsumiena

    Tsumiena

    [41]Apr 16, 2011
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    [QUOTE="mynameisjohnas

    Maybe the difference between the Fate Sisters and reapers is that the Sisters simply create the catylst for death to occur, whereas reapers are the condouit used to bring soulsover to the other side. That being said, wasn't it a reaper in "Faith" from season 1 who was being used to kill people?


    [/QUOTE]

    That was my interpretation too- Fates decide the mode, manner, and timing of death, whereas reapers come and collect afterward. This episode also confirms what I think alot of us were thinking- that souls equal power of some kind in angelic battle. Can't wait to see where they go with that. I love Cas dearly, but hate to think of what he might have done...such is the case with war. One way or another: Blondie, 1979.
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    libra113

    [42]Apr 16, 2011
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    Yeah, I would say that's the distrabution of labor to a t.

    I would also agree with the soul thing, souls are the batteries that keep Heaven running and he with the biggest battery collection is gonna win the war (or so it would seem).
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    mynameisjohnas

    [43]Apr 17, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Yeah, I'm sure souls are more like oil than gold. They must help keep things running in Heaven. Dean refurred to Heaven (in "Darkside of the Moon") as the Matrix and I suspect he more right than even he knew. Perhaps the souls in their Heaven's feed power to the engine that drives Heaven and the more indivigual Heavens a side controls the more power they have for the war. With Cas losing he must not have very many Heaven's under his control so he was trying to make more (in a sense print money) so he could tap their power.


    Interesting analogy, I like that. Gets me thinking about how weak theother God's were compared to Lucifer in Hammer of the Gods too. Some one correct me if I'm wrong, since theologyisn't a strong point of mine, but isn't there something in greek mythology about the greek gods deriving their power from the belief of humans in their existence? Or have I just been watching too many movies?


    libra113 wrote:
    I suspect things are going WAY worse for Cas and his side than we have been told and I'm sure these side trips to help Sam and Dean are making it worse but that he just can't turn his back on them so he still shows up.


    At least one would assumetheyhad beenuntil The French Mistake when Cas got ahold of the armory weapons. Could be that unsinking the Titanic was a powerplay move on his part to further handicap Raph after gaining the upper hand (or at least leveling the playing field).


    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    I think a Cas-centric episode is coming up if you look at the schedule. and you know it was Celine Dion, not Blondie, right? as for the original souls/timeline - they would have been in heaven/hell anyway when they died when the Titanic sunk - Balthazar changed history for the other souls down the bloodline



    Nice. I tend to try and not read show descriptions for fear of also reading spoilers at the same time.


    In regards to the souls/timeline issue- I was more so talking about souls such as Jo and Ellen's who were brough back to life from (what I'm assuming was) Heaven, not the ones who would have died on the Titanic.

    librea113 wrote:
    Firstly, the song was perfect for the scene and it was a funny sequence.


    Lol, in your opinion anyways. I'll give you that the lyrics were fitting and I understand the scene was trying to be quarky but for a series that is supposed to have a fairly decent taste in music, I had to cringe when I heard that start up. It's just a personal opinion of mine (and I'm glad most people seemed to like that scene since the more people that are happy the better) butI tend to go into a silent rage when I hear that song anywhere. Ijust find it horribly lame and would have appreciated the scene more if those scoring the episode had just made some orginal clown music or something to accompany it or something. Anything but that song, lol.

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    BarryWeen3

    [44]Apr 17, 2011
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    I liked that the episode began with the changed timeline. It was a funny if false reason to save the Titanic and I actually agree with it, I didn't dislike the movie that much, but considering how much it was hyped and the Celene Dion song being played over and over, I grew to hate Titanic and that song associated with it.


    It also cemented in my mind that the academy awards are a farce when it won best picture that year in comparison to the other movies it was up against: L.A. Confidential, Good Will Hunting,As Good AsIt Gets, The Full Monty. Plus it didn't win a single acting award and wasn'teven nominated for best original screenplay.


    That whole scene after Castiel reveals to the boys thatFate is after them was hilarious as they see all these things coming at them that could cause their death. "They're juggling knives and hatchets!!"


    The boys in a western, yeah, bring on next week.

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    yutg25

    [45]Apr 17, 2011
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    You know the question I ask is why is fate so pissed?


    The Apocalypse was not yet on schedule when Cas stopped it shouldn't she be thanking him? I think they used to go out and Cas just forgot to call back even though he said he would.


    You know Cas was lying when he said Balthazaar unsank the Titanic because of the movie it was on his face. You can he was lying when Dean asked him about it. I can't believe they didn't see it.


    It was a funny episode and it gave us a clue about the civil war. I think the Civil War is being decided by faith of people.

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    dpebbleson

    [46]Apr 17, 2011
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    Hmm, risking the ire of many fans, I'll just say I was mightily bored by this episode.

    I know I should give reasons why, but then again, it would probably open up a discussion, and it isn't meant to be discussed, I was just yawning throughout the episode and that's all.

    I won't go into illogicalities of which there are many, and convenient stuff of which there's a lot.

    Next episode looks promising. I agree with mynameisjohnas that SPN is a lot about hit and miss, and this one was a miss for me.

    I think SPN can do better than this.
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    sinjaceheroes

    [47]Apr 17, 2011
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    mynameisjohnas wrote:
    Interesting analogy, I like that. Gets me thinking about how weak theother God's were compared to Lucifer in Hammer of the Gods too. Some one correct me if I'm wrong, since theologyisn't a strong point of mine, but isn't there something in greek mythology about the greek gods deriving their power from the belief of humans in their existence? Or have I just been watching too many movies?


    Nah, I'm almost 99% sure that belief of human thought powering the gods is just Hollywood and literary fiction. And by literary fiction, I mean books like American Gods, which uses this belief as its basis.


    I have never heard of any religion with this in its mythology and it would be a setback in the mythology itself, don't you think? Cause if this belief was part of a religion, then the humans would know THEY were the true gods and just make a mess of it all.


    And what I am most confused about is that the Greek gods and titans were "alive" long before humanity. So, how can humanity "fuel" them?


    The thing is that the show did already state that creatures CAN be made by collective human thought.


    And that some pagan gods need faithful human sacrifices to live, as we saw with Paris Hilton-god and Freaky Mr. and Mrs. Klaus.


    What I thought about when we saw the episode where humans create that monster is that saying of "God made us in his own image". Well, God is a creator first and foremost, is he not? Then it would make sense that humans share creating capabilities, though to a much much much weaker extent. Much.


    And then there's the whole "We were here first" thing that Baldur said in Hammer of the Gods. If Big Momma is Eve, then Eve was made long after the angels. And her creations would be alive long after her. As such, the angels would have been here before the pagan gods.


    And the other thing that is vital is the fact that Eve can create. How can she create? Lilith came before her. Lilith "spoke God's true name and ascended" or so I read somewhere. She creates hundreds of demons ever night in the written mythology. So, if she's "bare" and a lowly demon, then how is Eve different?


    I went a little off topic, but this just came to mind and I wanted to write it down before I forgot it.

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  • Avatar of CortezDC

    CortezDC

    [48]Apr 17, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    mynameisjohnas wrote:

    As I'm not sure what to think of this episode, since it had both positive and negative elements in it, I'll simply do a pros and cons write up again.


    The Good


    -I'm glad we had a return to and expansion of the civil war story line as it's probably my favorite part of this season. Gamble and the rest of the writing team seem to be writing a deadly intricate story arch and I'm interested to see how this one is going to be woven into the other individual archs. My only complaint is that I wish we would actually get to see what is going on in Heaven at some point by having a more Cas- centric episode the way they did with Bobby earlier on this season.


    -Balthezar. What a great character he has been for this season. The I.P Freely alias was priceless as was his excuse about hating the movie and song as an excuse for doing what he did. Given what we know of his character I actually believed the excuse until Fate outed Cas. -The effects were decent enough. The freeze frames were well done as were the 2 deaths that occurred. Likewise, and the explosion/transportation scene where the brothers ignited the gas filled room and were transported out by Cas just as they were being blown backwards was cool to watch.


    -Returning to the topic of free will and time travel was also a welcome visit and I'm glad the writers are taking more time expand upon the issues.


    The Bad


    -I despise Blondie and I despise that damned song. If I never have to hear anything from them again it will still be bad enough that I ever had to hear them in the first place.


    -I've said it before, but I'll say it again and that is SPN is very hit and miss for me when it comes to enjoying an episode and I believe this has to do with many different things including who is directing, writing, producing and making the choices for camera angels shots. I'm happy to say I've never come across a season that didn't have an extremely well written story arch for the audience to watch play out, but I have to admit I really do believe there are flaws that exist in the creation of certain individual episodes which effect how believable said single episode is to me. Basically, I try and watch every epiosde as if I was being introduced to it for the first time. As such, for me there are five elements which are usually over looked when describing any show which is catagorized as a first rate television series. Obviously having 3-dimnensional characters and a good story line come first and foremost, but I'd posit that the ahead qualities are pre-requisits needed to complete the predecessing elements as a full set in any mature show's repetior.


    The first is the setting and production/projection quality of that setting and the second has to do with CGI effects and budget allocation (something shows like Sanctuary sometimes fail on in both accounts in my opinion). The third has to do with the camera angels and camera settings in conjuction with the score used to film the different events being showcased to the audience. I say this because capturing scenes or occurances in a fresh and intense way can, for me anyways, elevate an episode above what was originally written in script (a good case in point would be the end of 5th episode of Sparticus: Blood and Sand where Sparticus and Crixus are battling Theocilies. Right before the end we are given a slow motion third person view of Crixus blinding Theocilies with the relflection of the sun off of his helemt as Sparticus charges in for an attack. As this is all being done there is a climaxing score made up of synth and a chior as to suggest the importance and significance of the scene to audience).The fourth and final aspect is how well the story line plays out within the above mentioned elements. I bring this all up because SPN most definatley has always had a great story line and great characters, but I find that it is kind of hit and miss on an episode to episode basis with regards the above elements. Sometimes it will simply have a boring monster of the week episode with little to no story arch advancement and absolutely no interesting set design or camera shots (All Dogs, Like a Virgin, etc). Other times it will have a great storyline that advances the over all story arch in combination with interesting settings and camera angels (see Caged Heat where Crowley is beating Crowly, Family Matters where the show starts of from Sam's blurry POV or Live Free or Twihard where a get a fade in and fade out of Sam and Samuel finding Dean sitting down after having slaughtered a nest of vampires and is using the head vamps head as a foot rest. The atmospheres are moody, the set are darkly and yet appropriatly lit and the over all story archs are advanced). Other times, while we may not have interesting camera shots or angles, we are given real looking sets and a great story line to follow (see "On the Head of a Pin). Other times still we might not great great looking sets or effects (AIS) but we are given great story lines advanmcements.


    To me this episode was an odd combination of both the positive and negative elements mentioned above. The picture quality almost seemed BBC-ish and most of the episode played out in a monster of the week fashion and yet there were positive elements to the show as well. The special effects were done well enough and the over all storyline was advanced quite a bit with the reveal about Cas and his use of souls to help him power his "war machine". I don't know...in the end to an extentI guess this could be acredited the writers who are trying to please both camps of fans- those who enjoy the monster of the week shows and those of us who want to focus on the bigger picture episodes.


    The Interesting




    -I'm not sure what to make of Fate's character. On one side she seemed a little too "monster of the week" to me. Likewise, I've been wondering what the point of creating her was when the writers could have simply used reapers against the survivors since we already know Death and his reapers don't really like others messing up "the natural order" of things. I agree with Presario regarding the question



    presario111 wrote:


    wouldnt it make more sense for fate to work for death not god?



    On the other hand, after thinking about the existence of Cupids, I suppose her character is a little more plausible given that angels, demons and Death all seem to have their own paradigms (or at least did) about how the universe is supposed to function and flow. If angels had lower lower class soldiers like Cupids doing thier work for them in the "love" department, I guess it makes sense that they'd have agents doing their work in the "death" department as well (even though only having three of them seems a little far fetched given how many deaths occur everyday unless the sisters are simply 3 out of a large group of "contractors" who help the angels do their work). Personally, I'd really like to see more explained about the relationship between Angels, Demons and Death and how they all (used to) work together (if they ever did). Maybe the difference between the Fate Sisters and reapers is that the Sisters simply create the catylst for death to occur, whereas reapers are the condouit used to bring soulsover to the other side. That being said, wasn't it a reaper in "Faith" from season 1 who was being used to kill people?


    -If angels can now create more humans, and thus souls, by altering the time line, what happens to the souls that were already in Heaven or Hell during the original timeline?

    Firstly, the song was perfect for the scene and it was a funny sequence.

    Two, if you use Reapers instead of Fate then the whole desinty and fate (little f) ascpect of the story is gone. Fate isn't just about who lives and who dies it's about the details and the bits inbetween birth and death and that was what was important here as well.

    mynameisjohnas is entitled to his own opinion. Maybe he didn't like he thought the episode was ok and that he didn't like the song. I thought it was a so-so episode but I can't wait for the one next week.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [49]Apr 17, 2011
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    mynameisjohnas wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    Yeah, I'm sure souls are more like oil than gold. They must help keep things running in Heaven. Dean refurred to Heaven (in "Darkside of the Moon") as the Matrix and I suspect he more right than even he knew. Perhaps the souls in their Heaven's feed power to the engine that drives Heaven and the more indivigual Heavens a side controls the more power they have for the war. With Cas losing he must not have very many Heaven's under his control so he was trying to make more (in a sense print money) so he could tap their power.


    Interesting analogy, I like that. Gets me thinking about how weak theother God's were compared to Lucifer in Hammer of the Gods too. Some one correct me if I'm wrong, since theologyisn't a strong point of mine, but isn't there something in greek mythology about the greek gods deriving their power from the belief of humans in their existence? Or have I just been watching too many movies?


    libra113 wrote:
    I suspect things are going WAY worse for Cas and his side than we have been told and I'm sure these side trips to help Sam and Dean are making it worse but that he just can't turn his back on them so he still shows up.


    At least one would assumetheyhad beenuntil The French Mistake when Cas got ahold of the armory weapons. Could be that unsinking the Titanic was a powerplay move on his part to further handicap Raph after gaining the upper hand (or at least leveling the playing field).


    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    I think a Cas-centric episode is coming up if you look at the schedule. and you know it was Celine Dion, not Blondie, right? as for the original souls/timeline - they would have been in heaven/hell anyway when they died when the Titanic sunk - Balthazar changed history for the other souls down the bloodline



    Nice. I tend to try and not read show descriptions for fear of also reading spoilers at the same time.


    In regards to the souls/timeline issue- I was more so talking about souls such as Jo and Ellen's who were brough back to life from (what I'm assuming was) Heaven, not the ones who would have died on the Titanic.

    librea113 wrote:
    Firstly, the song was perfect for the scene and it was a funny sequence.


    Lol, in your opinion anyways. I'll give you that the lyrics were fitting and I understand the scene was trying to be quarky but for a series that is supposed to have a fairly decent taste in music, I had to cringe when I heard that start up. It's just a personal opinion of mine (and I'm glad most people seemed to like that scene since the more people that are happy the better) butI tend to go into a silent rage when I hear that song anywhere. Ijust find it horribly lame and would have appreciated the scene more if those scoring the episode had just made some orginal clown music or something to accompany it or something. Anything but that song, lol.

    I don't remember if it's in Greek mythology or just popular culture but it's such a recurrent theme in fiction that includes detities that it's kind of just assumed these days. It also explians why a presumably all powerful being would care if people worshipped them and why one of the major commandments in Christian religion is "Thous shall have no gods before me".

    I'm wondering if the timing of this Titanic thing isn't BECAUSE he got the weapons and there was something in there that allowed this plan to work or if it was just a preamble to opening his goodie bag and seeing what's in it (perhaps the weapons with real kick required him to have a greater number of souls in his control and that's why now).

    Well yeah but wouldn't Fate have ultimatly gone after Jo and Ellen as well since they're SUPPOSED to be dead too. Wasn't she just starting with the first level of people who were not meant to be then working her way through?

    Well, I'm trying to think of another song that would have worked better and fit more with the show but I'm drawing a blank at the moment. In absence of a better choice I would say we got like the first runner up and it certainly fit the humorious tone of the scene and kinda with the look they assigned Fate as she seems the type who would listen to that kind of music if she were just some random person.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [50]Apr 17, 2011
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    yutg25 wrote:

    You know the question I ask is why is fate so pissed?


    The Apocalypse was not yet on schedule when Cas stopped it shouldn't she be thanking him? I think they used to go out and Cas just forgot to call back even though he said he would.


    You know Cas was lying when he said Balthazaar unsank the Titanic because of the movie it was on his face. You can he was lying when Dean asked him about it. I can't believe they didn't see it.


    It was a funny episode and it gave us a clue about the civil war. I think the Civil War is being decided by faith of people.

    Well, yeah I don't think the end was supposed to come it was just a matter of the demons having a plan and the higher up angels allowing it becasue they were tired of running things. However, I guess once it got to a point it was sort of fated and for mere mortals to come along and unfate it makes her look weak and uneffective.

    Yeah I suspect Dean (at least) noticed but wasn't going to make an issue of it right now. It's a talk for another time.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [51]Apr 17, 2011
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    sinjaceheroes wrote:

    mynameisjohnas wrote:
    Interesting analogy, I like that. Gets me thinking about how weak theother God's were compared to Lucifer in Hammer of the Gods too. Some one correct me if I'm wrong, since theologyisn't a strong point of mine, but isn't there something in greek mythology about the greek gods deriving their power from the belief of humans in their existence? Or have I just been watching too many movies?


    Nah, I'm almost 99% sure that belief of human thought powering the gods is just Hollywood and literary fiction. And by literary fiction, I mean books like American Gods, which uses this belief as its basis.


    I have never heard of any religion with this in its mythology and it would be a setback in the mythology itself, don't you think? Cause if this belief was part of a religion, then the humans would know THEY were the true gods and just make a mess of it all.


    And what I am most confused about is that the Greek gods and titans were "alive" long before humanity. So, how can humanity "fuel" them?


    The thing is that the show did already state that creatures CAN be made by collective human thought.


    And that some pagan gods need faithful human sacrifices to live, as we saw with Paris Hilton-god and Freaky Mr. and Mrs. Klaus.


    What I thought about when we saw the episode where humans create that monster is that saying of "God made us in his own image". Well, God is a creator first and foremost, is he not? Then it would make sense that humans share creating capabilities, though to a much much much weaker extent. Much.


    And then there's the whole "We were here first" thing that Baldur said in Hammer of the Gods. If Big Momma is Eve, then Eve was made long after the angels. And her creations would be alive long after her. As such, the angels would have been here before the pagan gods.


    And the other thing that is vital is the fact that Eve can create. How can she create? Lilith came before her. Lilith "spoke God's true name and ascended" or so I read somewhere. She creates hundreds of demons ever night in the written mythology. So, if she's "bare" and a lowly demon, then how is Eve different?


    I went a little off topic, but this just came to mind and I wanted to write it down before I forgot it.

    Well, I'm starting to think the gods are a little confused about their own concept of time and that you can't take anything they say about who was here first or what they did at face value. I guess maybe immortality and being ages and ages old does that to the perceptions of time.

    Also, you have to be careful applying real life lore to the show's concept unless the show refrences it directly becasue they twist and alter lore to fit their stories so something you read somewhere else may, or may not, even be applicable to their version or not. In "Supernatural" there are three versions: there's the absoulte true version that we see, there's what the lore says that they say is wrong and there's the real world lore in our world that can be interpited in a number of ways.
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    puppybunny1

    [52]Apr 17, 2011
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    This was a great episode. I love seeing Jo again. Castiel cannot get any more handsome. Sam and Dean were so cute. I hope that there will be a season 7 or at least a spin off with Castiel. Remember that Angel was a spinoff of Buffy. This is the most unique show on TV so far. It is my favorite.
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    Shikady

    [53]Apr 18, 2011
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    I was kinda proud of Dean when I tought he finally realized that he always chooses rock so he went for sissors this time. Well...I'm guessin in that reality Sam is the one who always loses RPS =(


    But the look on Dean's face when he won was pretty awesome.



    Ok episode.

    Edited on 04/18/2011 1:53am
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [54]Apr 18, 2011
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    Shikady wrote:

    I was kinda proud of Dean when I tought he finally realized that he always chooses rock so he went for sissors this time. Well...I'm guessin in that reality Sam is the one who always loses RPS =(


    But the look on Dean's face when he won was pretty awesome.



    Ok episode.

    Yes, judging by his look it was just a matter of learning his lesson finally.
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    firlefanz10

    [55]Apr 18, 2011
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    My damn fockin' goodness! What a hillarious ep! I almost fell off my chair! Balthazar saving the Titanic coz he hated the movie and the song...


    If I had known fate is such a cutey I would have embraced it/her much earlier.



    On a more serious note I really like that they're weaving greek (and actually also norse - as the sisters are the parallel of the nordish nornir) mythology into the storyline.

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    basenji529

    [56]Apr 18, 2011
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    The Titanic. Of course that's the one they choose.


    At least they were flippant about how Americans think the sinking of the Titanic was the most tragic thing ever. It was just a bunch of rich people choking. The same thing happened when McCain conceded.

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    RachelleMcAdams

    [57]Apr 18, 2011
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    basenji529 wrote:

    The Titanic. Of course that's the one they choose.


    At least they were flippant about how Americans think the sinking of the Titanic was the most tragic thing ever. It was just a bunch of rich people choking. The same thing happened when McCain conceded.



    Wow harsh really? Rich people are still people and there were poor people on the boat too including innocent children and infants
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    libra113

    [58]Apr 19, 2011
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    basenji529 wrote:

    The Titanic. Of course that's the one they choose.


    At least they were flippant about how Americans think the sinking of the Titanic was the most tragic thing ever. It was just a bunch of rich people choking. The same thing happened when McCain conceded.

    Um, actually MOST of the people who died where the poor who were in stearage. The rich had ready acess to the inadiquate number of lifeboats and had priority over the poorer people who were just traveling to the new world for a better life.
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    yutg25

    [59]Apr 19, 2011
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    puppybunny1 wrote:
    This was a great episode. I love seeing Jo again. Castiel cannot get any more handsome. Sam and Dean were so cute. I hope that there will be a season 7 or at least a spin off with Castiel. Remember that Angel was a spinoff of Buffy. This is the most unique show on TV so far. It is my favorite.


    was jo there?

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [60]Apr 19, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385
    I remember a picture of her but I don't remember seeing her. Then again I was out of the room for a bit (couldn't be helped) so I figured I missed her.
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