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Official Discussion Thread: Reading is Fundamental (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of Gislef

    Gislef

    [1]May 2, 2012
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    Please direct all general and specific discussion of the 5/4/12 episode "Reading is Fundamental" to this thread.

    Enjoy!
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    lachlan_j_g

    [2]May 5, 2012
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    Gislef wrote:
    Please direct all general and specific discussion of the 5/4/12 episode "Reading is Fundamental" to this thread. Enjoy!


    fantastic episode; answered the question why don't angels/demons just use telekenesis etc to beat the leviathans. the next 2 episodes are going to be awesome!

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    Beecharm3r2

    [3]May 5, 2012
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    So I just finished watching the episode. I thought it was good but it wasn't amazing. I wasn't crazy about how Castiel's character is constantly going back and forth so I hope they put him back to the way he used to be when I loved his character in Season 4 and 5. I hope they do this soon. But I was glad that he at least had that little chat with Sam and that he was on the boys' side. I really liked that Sam had that one on one time with Castiel, explaining that despite what he did, they understood why Castiel turned into God-stiel last season. I hope Castiel's mind gets fixed and he can talk to the boys like normal.

    I really hated Meg here. She's just so...not Meg. Yeah I was growing tired of the real Meg and thought they should bring in a new demon to screw with the boys but in this episode Meg's not even creepy or intimidating like she used to be in past seasons. Those two trucker demons were scarier. But what I hated the most was how she's trying to befriend Sam & Dean (or her version of it) and Castiel. I never liked how she and Castiel were cozy-ing up to each other and in the previous episode with Castiel, he pointed out her hideous demon-face. Now here he is being concerned with her. I know it's because he's supposed to be insane but it's really awkward to watch. I hope they don't do a Meg/Castiel romance 'cause that would be wrong on so many levels.

    Meg in this episode was actually my biggest issue. She was like another character. And even if she had a blade, how could she use it to kill an archangel? I thought you could only be an archangel to kill an archangel because otherwise they were too powerful. I really hope this is explained in the next episode. What would be awesome is if Meg wasn't Meg at all, that someone was posing as her to help the boys. Someone like...an angel?

    The only other minor issue I had is at the end with the angels and the Leviathon. Seriously, are angels that slow, they can't flap their wings and get out of there? I thought the second angel would have escaped so I really think it's like angels are...SLOW in the head not just physically. They used to be intimidating now it's like they're a joke on the show.

    But overall, when I was watching the episode most of these things were minor.

    I really liked Kevin (Character & actor). I liked his girlfriend and their little chats they had. I felt it was a very good lead into the episode and proof that the writers on the show are actually very good at what they do. If and when they want to write well, they can, because Kevin felt like a real person from the start. I kind have wanted to be surprised by finding out who Kevin was but the description on my PVR gave that bit of info away. I think if I hadn't known before hand I might have been pleasantly surprised. It answered one question I had since Season 5. Where are the other prophets and are there archangels really watching over them? Of course it DOES raise more questions like, if there are archangels (aside from Raphael, Lucifer, Gabriel & Michael) Then why did Castiel feel a need to go all God-stiel to kill Raphael? Couldn't he have gotten the other two archangels to go medieval on his butt?

    Anyways, I did like the episode plot and I'm holding my breath for next week because I suspect something that might happen in the next episode (based on a rumor I heard) and I really hope it happens. BUT my suspicions have been wrong before...
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    lachlan_j_g

    [4]May 5, 2012
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    Beecharm3r2 wrote:


    I thought you could only be an archangel to kill an archangel because otherwise they were too powerful. I really hope this is explained in the next episode. What would be awesome is if Meg wasn't Meg at all, that someone was posing as her to help the boys. Someone like...an angel? The only other minor issue I had is at the end with the angels and the Leviathon. Seriously, are angels that slow, they can't flap their wings and get out of there? I thought the second angel would have escaped so I really think it's like angels are...SLOW in the head not just physically. They used to be intimidating now it's like they're a joke on the show.


    i don't think 'Hesta' was an archangel, just the leader of the garrison, much like Cas was at the start of season 4. as for the angels slow reaction, they were taken by surprise at least for the first one, the second one tried to fight and realised (too late) that he was powerless against the Leviathan. i don't think it was a matter of wanting to flee, they needed to keep Kevin under their watchful eyes - fleeing wouldn't have helped that

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    Tyrathius

    [5]May 5, 2012
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    I'm not sure what to think of that bit at the end, with the leviathan killing the angels. On the one hand, up until now they haven't done anything to make them seem that dangerous (at least compared to the other monsters on the show) and having them knock off a few angel mooks does make them seem more capable. On the other hand, it seems really contrived -that whole chest stabbing thing was never seen or mentioned as an ability of the leviathans or a weakness of the angels, and up until now, Zachariah was the only angel to be killed (onscreen) by something other than an angel. And that was with an angel-killing weapon while he was distracted. Angels move and react too fast to be vulnerable to humans and demons, and since leviathans possess no teleportation or super speed, I don't see why they'd be any different. The first one, perhaps he could have caught off guard, but the second had ample time to realize what was going on and either flee or strike back. Rather than making leviathans seem strong, it made the angels seem weak. Angels have so many more powers than leviathans (ex. facemelting, teleportation, reality warping, time traveling, resurrection) it's like Superman vs. Aquaman, only Aquaman wins just because.


    Meg's time on this show should have ended in the second or fifth season, they're trying to make her into an anti-hero and she just doesn't work as one. This is a character who kidnapped John, possessed Sam, and mortally wounded Jo (or at least told a hellhound to). She's done too much as a villain and too little to redeem herself to work as a good guy. It makes you wonder why Dean did not simply stab her with the demon-killing knife while she was in the Devil's Trap, or when she was tied to a torture rack in Caged Heat. Especially after Ruby and Crowley, and their respective backstabbings. I also can't understand why Castiel would trust her more than Sam and Dean, when he claims to remember everything they've done together, and Meg openly admits to only wanting him around as a potential weapon against Crowley. Even when she was "taking care" of him, he was unconscious for most of that time and wasn't able to bond with her.


    Those were my two biggest things with the episode. Otherwise, I thought it was alright but not great. I wasn't particularly impressed by the guest actors. The story is starting to move for the first time since the season midpoint (everything that was "revealed" last week we'd known since the drugged hamburgers) but I just can't seem to immerse myself in it like I did with earlier seasons.

    Edited on 05/05/2012 1:40am
    Edited 2 total times.
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    SohiHien

    [6]May 5, 2012
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    I agree with Tyrathius in that I'm not as into this season as past seasons. I've found myself only half watching as I do other things. That said this episode was alright but not as amazing as I had hoped. I too don't like the idea of the Leviathans all the sudden being so strong and killing angels so easy. I agree that it seems more like they made the angels weaker then made the levianthans strong. They haven't shown this sort of strength so far and now all the sudden then can kill everything.

    I also don't like how they have made Cas. I sort of wish with seeing how his character is now that he just remained in a coma after helping Sam. Now he is just so not-Cas and insane, which makes me fear that he will never be like he was before again. After seeing how far they have made his character fall after everything he went through in the last few seasons it makes me sad. I was angry at Dean too because he is still not treating Cas very kindly and the conversation I was hoping would happen between him and Cas happened between Sam and Cas instead. Cas really did give everything up for Dean and I imagine part of the reason he did what he did in season 6 was because Dean pretty much got angry with him any time he asked for help (but expected him to drop everything and help when Dean needed help) so Cas had no one to really talk to about what he was planning and turned to Crowley instead.

    I wish they would kill Meg already. She has been around too long and after everything she has done in the past they are trying to make her good now? She just seems weak and desparate now which just ruins her character. I don't like how buddy-buddy she is with Cas either. If they make some sort of romance between them it would just be so wrong. The word of God and the prophet were pretty cool and now they have a way to kill kill the leviathans and it looks like Crowley will be in the next episode and I hope more of Cas not being so crazy. We will have to see how next week goes because honestly I'm not that excited about another season...
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    LalaDrake

    [7]May 5, 2012
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    as most suggested, Leviathans didn't do anything dangerous before, so HOW is it possible that they are so powerful and play under-radar? ...
    If it is so easy for them to kick demon's asses and now that we know they "kill angles" with their hands then why didn't Dick take his war up in heaven?
    If he wins heaven, obviously Crowley and his hell is not an issue, and hello they are immortals then humans aren't that big deal?!! or so I think


    An archangel ! and a new prophet? what happened to our old prophet... and wow why don't they make more new prophets to help them in their fight! since it's that easy! funny then each party would get their own prophet


    Loved the Kevin character ...I cracked when he said "this looks like a sex torture dungeon. Is this a sex torture dungeon?" and when Dean asked "what is this?" hahahah


    Angels know how to kill Leviathans and just keep the secret?! wth! Sometimes those angles are so stupid!

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    OdumC

    [8]May 5, 2012
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    Maybe with all the turmoil upstairs Angels have gotten weaker?

    I didn't have a problem with Meg killing an Angel, maybe the whole reason behind saying only an Angel can kill another Angel is simply because of that blade? so once Angels started killing each other and the blades started dropping, anyone who could nab one would have the ability usually only another Angel would have? makes sense so I'm running under that idea.

    As for the last Prophet, Chuck, they strongly hinted that he was actually God in his final scene.

    Watching the episode last night though really made me miss the old days of them traveling from town to town in the Impala hunting ghosts and helping people.
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    dpebbleson

    [9]May 5, 2012
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    Quite obviously the Leviathans can cancel the angelic powers. It could also be that Mother of All was also a kind of Leviathan, given the way in which she died, and the way in which she was able to block Castiel's powers.

    I for one have been nagging about Leviathans not being powerful enough, so the latest developments are very good as far as I'm concerned
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    Jo_Harvelle

    [10]May 5, 2012
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    Haha I totally heard Megatron "Pull my finger" is the best line in this ep

    It was really great episode, I must say I am happy that there will be another season.

    And I guess that Meg could kill an Angel because she had the blade, I totally agree with OdumC.
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    WCSU1987

    [11]May 5, 2012
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    I think my only concern with the season. Is that they say Sam is the center character. The story arc involves around how Sam enters into the story, is fall, revival, and now the breakdown. Every season had a connection. This season appears to be the build of plot and now string it together. With the episode itself was good. I was hoping a bigger battle with the Lev. and Angel encounter. I do like how characters from the past are key to defeating the Lev.s However, early on the season there were four or five Lev.s if they go does that end the threat? Big question. What happens to the Prophet. Will more "Word of Gods" be more involved. Why did a Archangel not come for the prophet? How depleted are the ranks? Will Angels come back into storyline? Will character Death reappear? What is Crowley's plan? Is there a war if Crowley should be ruler? Episode created a lot of questions

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [12]May 5, 2012
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    Beecharm3r2 wrote:
    So I just finished watching the episode. I thought it was good but it wasn't amazing. I wasn't crazy about how Castiel's character is constantly going back and forth so I hope they put him back to the way he used to be when I loved his character in Season 4 and 5. I hope they do this soon. But I was glad that he at least had that little chat with Sam and that he was on the boys' side. I really liked that Sam had that one on one time with Castiel, explaining that despite what he did, they understood why Castiel turned into God-stiel last season. I hope Castiel's mind gets fixed and he can talk to the boys like normal.

    I really hated Meg here. She's just so...not Meg. Yeah I was growing tired of the real Meg and thought they should bring in a new demon to screw with the boys but in this episode Meg's not even creepy or intimidating like she used to be in past seasons. Those two trucker demons were scarier. But what I hated the most was how she's trying to befriend Sam & Dean (or her version of it) and Castiel. I never liked how she and Castiel were cozy-ing up to each other and in the previous episode with Castiel, he pointed out her hideous demon-face. Now here he is being concerned with her. I know it's because he's supposed to be insane but it's really awkward to watch. I hope they don't do a Meg/Castiel romance 'cause that would be wrong on so many levels.

    Meg in this episode was actually my biggest issue. She was like another character. And even if she had a blade, how could she use it to kill an archangel? I thought you could only be an archangel to kill an archangel because otherwise they were too powerful. I really hope this is explained in the next episode. What would be awesome is if Meg wasn't Meg at all, that someone was posing as her to help the boys. Someone like...an angel?

    The only other minor issue I had is at the end with the angels and the Leviathon. Seriously, are angels that slow, they can't flap their wings and get out of there? I thought the second angel would have escaped so I really think it's like angels are...SLOW in the head not just physically. They used to be intimidating now it's like they're a joke on the show.

    But overall, when I was watching the episode most of these things were minor.

    I really liked Kevin (Character & actor). I liked his girlfriend and their little chats they had. I felt it was a very good lead into the episode and proof that the writers on the show are actually very good at what they do. If and when they want to write well, they can, because Kevin felt like a real person from the start. I kind have wanted to be surprised by finding out who Kevin was but the description on my PVR gave that bit of info away. I think if I hadn't known before hand I might have been pleasantly surprised. It answered one question I had since Season 5. Where are the other prophets and are there archangels really watching over them? Of course it DOES raise more questions like, if there are archangels (aside from Raphael, Lucifer, Gabriel & Michael) Then why did Castiel feel a need to go all God-stiel to kill Raphael? Couldn't he have gotten the other two archangels to go medieval on his butt?

    Anyways, I did like the episode plot and I'm holding my breath for next week because I suspect something that might happen in the next episode (based on a rumor I heard) and I really hope it happens. BUT my suspicions have been wrong before...
    I don't know if THEY understand it but Sam's been in that situation before HE understands it. Seems Dean is still hurt and angry but maybe given time he will learn to forgive.

    Well, of course Meg is acting different she's in a different situation than she has ever been before. Before she had the upper hand and was in control of her situation (at least to a point). Now she all alone and on the run and has no control and is just grasping at whatever she can find to stay alive. This is Meg desperate and scared (even if she would deny it). As for killing the angels and archangels. The sword does all the work, doesn't matter who uses it. We've pretty much seen everyone use one at one time or another and never has it failed because of who the user is. I would think the 'only an angel can kill another angel' thing was in reference to the swords because, at the time, only angels had them.

    I don't think the angels are slow (at least they haven't been before) they're just no used to dealing with something that could kill them so quickly and easily and that Leviathan did catch them off guard.

    If there are other archangels they were likely all on Raph's side, either that or there were equal numbers on each side so as to cancel out the advantage (they spent all their time fighting each other and couldn't make a difference elsewhere). In either case if Cas wanted to solidify his position as leader of Heaven HE had to be seen taking down Raph otherwise whoever did would be the near leader.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [13]May 5, 2012
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    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    Beecharm3r2 wrote:


    I thought you could only be an archangel to kill an archangel because otherwise they were too powerful. I really hope this is explained in the next episode. What would be awesome is if Meg wasn't Meg at all, that someone was posing as her to help the boys. Someone like...an angel? The only other minor issue I had is at the end with the angels and the Leviathon. Seriously, are angels that slow, they can't flap their wings and get out of there? I thought the second angel would have escaped so I really think it's like angels are...SLOW in the head not just physically. They used to be intimidating now it's like they're a joke on the show.


    i don't think 'Hesta' was an archangel, just the leader of the garrison, much like Cas was at the start of season 4. as for the angels slow reaction, they were taken by surprise at least for the first one, the second one tried to fight and realised (too late) that he was powerless against the Leviathan. i don't think it was a matter of wanting to flee, they needed to keep Kevin under their watchful eyes - fleeing wouldn't have helped that


    Yeah, they were under orders to guard him with their lives so just ditching them to save their own tail feathers wouldn't be cool at all. It's also possible that their angelic powers don't work whenLeviathansare around (kinda like the Mother of All did to Cas) but more likely it's the whole orders thing.

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    WCSU1987

    [14]May 5, 2012
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    With Lev.s staying under the radar. It appeared Crowley wanted them stopped. However, could not. The Angels are destroyed, split, and seem not interested in human affairs. The Lev.s only seem interested in the Matrix life breeding humans as food being the perfect top dog on Earth. Question comes into play with Alapha roles make them obsolete. If humans are a snack and Lev.s only die by two ways. What does that do to everything else? How does that effect Death and God?

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [15]May 5, 2012
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    Tyrathius wrote:


    I'm not sure what to think of that bit at the end, with the leviathan killing the angels. On the one hand, up until now they haven't done anything to make them seem that dangerous (at least compared to the other monsters on the show) and having them knock off a few angel mooks does make them seem more capable. On the other hand, it seems really contrived -that whole chest stabbing thing was never seen or mentioned as an ability of the leviathans or a weakness of the angels, and up until now, Zachariah was the only angel to be killed (onscreen) by something other than an angel. And that was with an angel-killing weapon while he was distracted. Angels move and react too fast to be vulnerable to humans and demons, and since leviathans possess no teleportation or super speed, I don't see why they'd be any different. The first one, perhaps he could have caught off guard, but the second had ample time to realize what was going on and either flee or strike back. Rather than making leviathans seem strong, it made the angels seem weak. Angels have so many more powers than leviathans (ex. facemelting, teleportation, reality warping, time traveling, resurrection) it's like Superman vs. Aquaman, only Aquaman wins just because.


    Meg's time on this show should have ended in the second or fifth season, they're trying to make her into an anti-hero and she just doesn't work as one. This is a character who kidnapped John, possessed Sam, and mortally wounded Jo (or at least told a hellhound to). She's done too much as a villain and too little to redeem herself to work as a good guy. It makes you wonder why Dean did not simply stab her with the demon-killing knife while she was in the Devil's Trap, or when she was tied to a torture rack in Caged Heat. Especially after Ruby and Crowley, and their respective backstabbings. I also can't understand why Castiel would trust her more than Sam and Dean, when he claims to remember everything they've done together, and Meg openly admits to only wanting him around as a potential weapon against Crowley. Even when she was "taking care" of him, he was unconscious for most of that time and wasn't able to bond with her.


    Those were my two biggest things with the episode. Otherwise, I thought it was alright but not great. I wasn't particularly impressed by the guest actors. The story is starting to move for the first time since the season midpoint (everything that was "revealed" last week we'd known since the drugged hamburgers) but I just can't seem to immerse myself in it like I did with earlier seasons.


    I really don't get you people and yourobsessionwith flashy shows of power. It's notnecessarilyfor the new monster on the block to come in and just start showing off all their powers and stuff right off the bat. The thing about theLeviathans(and probably why they were picked ) is that little to nothing is actually laid out about them other than they're very powerful and their name. They're a clean slate and this obsession with having to know all their powers and stuff right off the bat is just silly. They're very powerful and we dont' know the half of it, end of story. Oh and in the Superman VS Aquaman thing IF Aquaman wins it's becasue he's actually way more powerful than some people seem to realize (superhuman strength, reflexes, resistance,etc...) if you read the comics (the well written ones) you would know he's way more than Super Friends cartoon made him out to be (a guy who talks to fish).


    They're not trying to make her into an anti-hero. She is what she's always been, a self serving b itch trying to save her own backside anyway she can. If she's coming off that way it's because she's trying to worn her way into Sam and Dean's (especially Sam since he's more vulnerable to that sort of thing, or was at least) good graces to save her own life. They're keep her aroundbecause, in case you haven't noticed, they've run out of people to work with and even though they don't like her or trust her they at least have someone around. They can't do it all alone and with Bobby a now you see him, now you don't ghost and everyone else just dead they can't afford to be picky, for now.


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    libra113

    [16]May 5, 2012
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    LalaDrake wrote:


    as most suggested, Leviathans didn't do anything dangerous before, so HOW is it possible that they are so powerful and play under-radar? ...
    If it is so easy for them to kick demon's asses and now that we know they "kill angles" with their hands then why didn't Dick take his war up in heaven?
    If he wins heaven, obviously Crowley and his hell is not an issue, and hello they are immortals then humans aren't that big deal?!! or so I think


    An archangel ! and a new prophet? what happened to our old prophet... and wow why don't they make more new prophets to help them in their fight! since it's that easy! funny then each party would get their own prophet


    Loved the Kevin character ...I cracked when he said "this looks like a sex torture dungeon. Is this a sex torture dungeon?" and when Dean asked "what is this?" hahahah


    Angels know how to kill Leviathans and just keep the secret?! wth! Sometimes those angles are so stupid!


    Okay let's clear one thing up first. All they want is human flesh to eat. How does taking over Heaven (which isn't a threat) or Hell (ditto) give them that? There's no point when they can smoke any angel or demon who stands against them in the only place they care about Earth. Secondly, how could they demonstrate their angel killing power when there haven't been any angels to kill? That's not possible. Further, nothing they've been doing has called for (or would be added by) avulgardisplay of power. They wanthumandocile and fat and walking into their slaughterhouses of their own free will. What good would flashy power be for that?

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    mattgus

    [17]May 5, 2012
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    there was a flaw that i can't overlook...the word keeper (and this was a big part of thr story)was to be protected by these angels who were called especially for this and him...soooo,if this word is about and how to kill leviathans why in all creation would he be protected by the one supernatural that is helpless in the face of what he needs protection from. am i missing something or do we just pretend that since we like this series the writers can mess up and we are suppose to look the other way. and yes they will fix it next episode we know that,but............it feels weak or false or lazy...something??? or like i said i am missing somethig syaring me in the face?
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    libra113

    [18]May 5, 2012
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    mattgus wrote:
    there was a flaw that i can't overlook...the word keeper (and this was a big part of thr story)was to be protected by these angels who were called especially for this and him...soooo,if this word is about and how to kill leviathans why in all creation would he be protected by the one supernatural that is helpless in the face of what he needs protection from. am i missing something or do we just pretend that since we like this series the writers can mess up and we are suppose to look the other way. and yes they will fix it next episode we know that,but............it feels weak or false or lazy...something??? or like i said i am missing somethig syaring me in the face?
    What would you suggest. I doubt archangels (if there are any left) would havefaredany better and that's all Heaven has. Besides theprotocols were put in places ages ago, not for this specific even, so yeah they're not going to be perfect and likely, asoriginallyplanned, would have beendifferent. They were just trying to do the best they can with what options they have now.

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    Tyrathius

    [19]May 5, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    Tyrathius wrote:


    I'm not sure what to think of that bit at the end, with the leviathan killing the angels. On the one hand, up until now they haven't done anything to make them seem that dangerous (at least compared to the other monsters on the show) and having them knock off a few angel mooks does make them seem more capable. On the other hand, it seems really contrived -that whole chest stabbing thing was never seen or mentioned as an ability of the leviathans or a weakness of the angels, and up until now, Zachariah was the only angel to be killed (onscreen) by something other than an angel. And that was with an angel-killing weapon while he was distracted. Angels move and react too fast to be vulnerable to humans and demons, and since leviathans possess no teleportation or super speed, I don't see why they'd be any different. The first one, perhaps he could have caught off guard, but the second had ample time to realize what was going on and either flee or strike back. Rather than making leviathans seem strong, it made the angels seem weak. Angels have so many more powers than leviathans (ex. facemelting, teleportation, reality warping, time traveling, resurrection) it's like Superman vs. Aquaman, only Aquaman wins just because.


    Meg's time on this show should have ended in the second or fifth season, they're trying to make her into an anti-hero and she just doesn't work as one. This is a character who kidnapped John, possessed Sam, and mortally wounded Jo (or at least told a hellhound to). She's done too much as a villain and too little to redeem herself to work as a good guy. It makes you wonder why Dean did not simply stab her with the demon-killing knife while she was in the Devil's Trap, or when she was tied to a torture rack in Caged Heat. Especially after Ruby and Crowley, and their respective backstabbings. I also can't understand why Castiel would trust her more than Sam and Dean, when he claims to remember everything they've done together, and Meg openly admits to only wanting him around as a potential weapon against Crowley. Even when she was "taking care" of him, he was unconscious for most of that time and wasn't able to bond with her.


    Those were my two biggest things with the episode. Otherwise, I thought it was alright but not great. I wasn't particularly impressed by the guest actors. The story is starting to move for the first time since the season midpoint (everything that was "revealed" last week we'd known since the drugged hamburgers) but I just can't seem to immerse myself in it like I did with earlier seasons.


    I really don't get you people and yourobsessionwith flashy shows of power. It's notnecessarilyfor the new monster on the block to come in and just start showing off all their powers and stuff right off the bat. The thing about theLeviathans(and probably why they were picked ) is that little to nothing is actually laid out about them other than they're very powerful and their name. They're a clean slate and this obsession with having to know all their powers and stuff right off the bat is just silly. They're very powerful and we dont' know the half of it, end of story. Oh and in the Superman VS Aquaman thing IF Aquaman wins it's becasue he's actually way more powerful than some people seem to realize (superhuman strength, reflexes, resistance,etc...) if you read the comics (the well written ones) you would know he's way more than Super Friends cartoon made him out to be (a guy who talks to fish).


    They're not trying to make her into an anti-hero. She is what she's always been, a self serving b itch trying to save her own backside anyway she can. If she's coming off that way it's because she's trying to worn her way into Sam and Dean's (especially Sam since he's more vulnerable to that sort of thing, or was at least) good graces to save her own life. They're keep her aroundbecause, in case you haven't noticed, they've run out of people to work with and even though they don't like her or trust her they at least have someone around. They can't do it all alone and with Bobby a now you see him, now you don't ghost and everyone else just dead they can't afford to be picky, for now.




    And I really don't get why you think everyone has to agree with you.


    I am not necessarily opposed to the idea of leviathans being stronger than angels. What I didn't like is how they just suddenly are, with no reason as to why. Going by what we've previously seen angels do, and what we've previously seen leviathans do, angels are by far the more powerful of the two. Worse, the way Edgar killed the angels, it specifically relied of them not doing anything to stop him. Earlier in the season, a mortal witch was able to incapacitate a leviathan with a simple spell he made on the spot. Last week Bobby was able to (temporarily) hold back Dick Roman himself. -Do you really expect me to believe that a witch and a ghost are stronger than two angels? Even if their usual facemelting touch won't work on a leviathan, an angel should have more than enough mojo to throw around to stop it and, failing that, can still move much faster than the leviathan and should have had time to grab Kevin and his mother and run. If Aquaman wins because of some previously unintroduced ability that has absolutely no setup in the story, do you know what that is? Deus ex machina, that's what.


    Eve was able to nullify Castiel's powers, but this was explicitly stated as an ability of hers, and she's clearly not the same kind of creature as the leviathans to begin with (she creates monsters, as far as we know leviathans don't reproduce, she needed a human host, leviathans are shapeshifters, etc.) Not to mention the angels had literally just used their powers teleporting into the room with the leviathan.


    As far as Meg goes, yes, she's still a self-serving bitch. That's what makes her an anti-hero -She's fighting on the side of good despite her villainous nature. The problem is she's done so much bad it just doesn't work. Ruby and Crowley worked because neither of them had done anything to cross the Winchesters prior to their team-ups. Meg has caused the Winchesters quite a bit of trouble and grief over the years, and neither of them are the sort to just forgive and forget regardless of how dire the situation is. And that her romance with Castiel requires him to be acting vastly out of character for it to work is probably a sign that it's not a good idea.

    Edited on 05/05/2012 10:33am
    Edited 3 total times.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [20]May 5, 2012
    • member since: 11/06/09
    • level: 23
    • rank: Close Talker
    • posts: 5,651
    Tyrathius wrote:
    Even if their usual facemelting touch won't work on a leviathan, an angel should have more than enough mojo to throw around to stop it and, failing that, can still move much faster than the leviathan and should have had time to grab Kevin and his mother and run.


    I think it was almost explicitly shown that angelic powers don't work around leviathans. The other angel tried to do something to Edgar, but he failed, he couldn't cast a spell or something.

    Tyrathius wrote:
    Eve was able to nullifying Castiel's powers, but this was explicitly stated as an ability of hers, and she's clearly not the same kind of creature as the leviathans to begin with (she creates monsters, as far as we know leviathans don't reproduce, she needed a human host, leviathans are shapeshifters, etc.)


    I have a theory that Meg is a kind of a Leviathan, or at least something very similar. When she died, she had that black ooze coming out of her. And actually, when Crowley was experimenting on her, it was implied that she wasn't completely dead, as the monsters were still reacting to experiments being done on her.

    I wonder if leviathans also stop demonic powers. They are definitely not immune to ghost powers and borax, but still they don't kill them.

    Also, there's a bit of a paradox involved about the way to kill them, the bone of a righteous one, in the blood of.. I forgot what. They existed before humans as I get it. Or am I wrong?
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