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Official Discussion Thread: Reading is Fundamental (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of Tyrathius

    Tyrathius

    [21]May 5, 2012
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    But the angels had just used their teleportation getting Kevin in the room, and in the Becky episode Crowley was able to teleport in and out of Dick's car without problem. If the leviathans have some sort of power nullifier, not only has it never been mentioned, it's not applied consistently. Hell, why would leviathans be given power over angels and demons to begin with? They didn't exist when the leviathans were made.


    And then there's the issues of why God would leave angels, which are apparently powerless against leviathans, to guard a tablet about how to kill leviathans. Surely he must have seen the issue with that, so why not assign something else, or give angels the power to fight leviathans? And yeah, leviathans are the oldest known creatures in the supernatural universe barring Death and God, so why would they be vulnerable to the bone and blood of creatures created much later?


    It just seems like the writers haven't put much thought into the leviathan arc and are trying to force how dangerous they are on the audience instead of really showing it.

    Edited on 05/05/2012 11:03am
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [22]May 5, 2012
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    Tyrathius wrote:

    But the angels had just used their teleportation getting Kevin in the room, and in the Becky episode Crowley was able to teleport in and out of Dick's car without problem. If the leviathans have some sort of power nullifier, not only has it never been mentioned, it's not applied consistently. Hell, why would leviathans be given power over angels and demons to begin with? They didn't exist when the leviathans were made.


    And then there's the issues of why God would leave angels, which are apparently powerless against leviathans, to guard a tablet about how to kill leviathans. Surely he must have seen the issue with that, so why not assign something else, or give angels the power to fight leviathans? And yeah, leviathans are the oldest known creatures in the supernatural universe barring Death and God, so why would they be vulnerable to the bone and blood of creatures created much later?


    It just seems like the writers haven't put much thought into the leviathan arc and are trying to force how dangerous they are on the audience instead of really showing it.



    I believe that Leviathans somehow cancel the angelic powers, and we've witnessed this with the Mother of All, and with this Leviathan.

    However, I have to agree with your remark about teleporting into the leviathan-area with no problem, but having trouble to teleport back. One answer could be that "you can get in, but you can't get out" to paraphrase the Eagles song. Castiel was able to teleport himself and the Winchesters to Meg's experimental town, but once there he couldn't do anything.

    Still, just why these two angels didn't notice anything weird is beyond me.

    As for the tablet, hmm, you might be right, it's kinda paradoxical all in all, and does sound like an afterthought.

    Interestingly enough, the humans had not yet been created, but a human will be able to read the tablet, and not an angel

    I think you raise some interesting issues, I might not agree with everything, but there's definitely something there.
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  • Avatar of WCSU1987

    WCSU1987

    [23]May 5, 2012
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    I do not think it is a plot hole. Can see as "O there is only one way to destroy them, lock them up, or be God or Death." Seems simple I mean the only way to smoke the D's and A's are by the knives.

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    gatoraderising

    [24]May 5, 2012
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    Well Eve's reason to why she could block Cas power was that she was older and knew how angels worked/ticked. So why wouldnt something thats OLDER then Eve know the samething she did.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [25]May 5, 2012
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    Tyrathius wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Tyrathius wrote:


    I'm not sure what to think of that bit at the end, with the leviathan killing the angels. On the one hand, up until now they haven't done anything to make them seem that dangerous (at least compared to the other monsters on the show) and having them knock off a few angel mooks does make them seem more capable. On the other hand, it seems really contrived -that whole chest stabbing thing was never seen or mentioned as an ability of the leviathans or a weakness of the angels, and up until now, Zachariah was the only angel to be killed (onscreen) by something other than an angel. And that was with an angel-killing weapon while he was distracted. Angels move and react too fast to be vulnerable to humans and demons, and since leviathans possess no teleportation or super speed, I don't see why they'd be any different. The first one, perhaps he could have caught off guard, but the second had ample time to realize what was going on and either flee or strike back. Rather than making leviathans seem strong, it made the angels seem weak. Angels have so many more powers than leviathans (ex. facemelting, teleportation, reality warping, time traveling, resurrection) it's like Superman vs. Aquaman, only Aquaman wins just because.


    Meg's time on this show should have ended in the second or fifth season, they're trying to make her into an anti-hero and she just doesn't work as one. This is a character who kidnapped John, possessed Sam, and mortally wounded Jo (or at least told a hellhound to). She's done too much as a villain and too little to redeem herself to work as a good guy. It makes you wonder why Dean did not simply stab her with the demon-killing knife while she was in the Devil's Trap, or when she was tied to a torture rack in Caged Heat. Especially after Ruby and Crowley, and their respective backstabbings. I also can't understand why Castiel would trust her more than Sam and Dean, when he claims to remember everything they've done together, and Meg openly admits to only wanting him around as a potential weapon against Crowley. Even when she was "taking care" of him, he was unconscious for most of that time and wasn't able to bond with her.


    Those were my two biggest things with the episode. Otherwise, I thought it was alright but not great. I wasn't particularly impressed by the guest actors. The story is starting to move for the first time since the season midpoint (everything that was "revealed" last week we'd known since the drugged hamburgers) but I just can't seem to immerse myself in it like I did with earlier seasons.


    I really don't get you people and yourobsessionwith flashy shows of power. It's notnecessarilyfor the new monster on the block to come in and just start showing off all their powers and stuff right off the bat. The thing about theLeviathans(and probably why they were picked ) is that little to nothing is actually laid out about them other than they're very powerful and their name. They're a clean slate and this obsession with having to know all their powers and stuff right off the bat is just silly. They're very powerful and we dont' know the half of it, end of story. Oh and in the Superman VS Aquaman thing IF Aquaman wins it's becasue he's actually way more powerful than some people seem to realize (superhuman strength, reflexes, resistance,etc...) if you read the comics (the well written ones) you would know he's way more than Super Friends cartoon made him out to be (a guy who talks to fish).


    They're not trying to make her into an anti-hero. She is what she's always been, a self serving b itch trying to save her own backside anyway she can. If she's coming off that way it's because she's trying to worn her way into Sam and Dean's (especially Sam since he's more vulnerable to that sort of thing, or was at least) good graces to save her own life. They're keep her aroundbecause, in case you haven't noticed, they've run out of people to work with and even though they don't like her or trust her they at least have someone around. They can't do it all alone and with Bobby a now you see him, now you don't ghost and everyone else just dead they can't afford to be picky, for now.




    And I really don't get why you think everyone has to agree with you.


    I am not necessarily opposed to the idea of leviathans being stronger than angels. What I didn't like is how they just suddenly are, with no reason as to why. Going by what we've previously seen angels do, and what we've previously seen leviathans do, angels are by far the more powerful of the two. Worse, the way Edgar killed the angels, it specifically relied of them not doing anything to stop him. Earlier in the season, a mortal witch was able to incapacitate a leviathan with a simple spell he made on the spot. Last week Bobby was able to (temporarily) hold back Dick Roman himself. -Do you really expect me to believe that a witch and a ghost are stronger than two angels? Even if their usual facemelting touch won't work on a leviathan, an angel should have more than enough mojo to throw around to stop it and, failing that, can still move much faster than the leviathan and should have had time to grab Kevin and his mother and run. If Aquaman wins because of some previously unintroduced ability that has absolutely no setup in the story, do you know what that is? Deus ex machina, that's what.


    Eve was able to nullify Castiel's powers, but this was explicitly stated as an ability of hers, and she's clearly not the same kind of creature as the leviathans to begin with (she creates monsters, as far as we know leviathans don't reproduce, she needed a human host, leviathans are shapeshifters, etc.) Not to mention the angels had literally just used their powers teleporting into the room with the leviathan.


    As far as Meg goes, yes, she's still a self-serving bitch. That's what makes her an anti-hero -She's fighting on the side of good despite her villainous nature. The problem is she's done so much bad it just doesn't work. Ruby and Crowley worked because neither of them had done anything to cross the Winchesters prior to their team-ups. Meg has caused the Winchesters quite a bit of trouble and grief over the years, and neither of them are the sort to just forgive and forget regardless of how dire the situation is. And that her romance with Castiel requires him to be acting vastly out of character for it to work is probably a sign that it's not a good idea.


    There is a majordifferencebetween not being able to do something and just not having done something yet. As I recall when angles first appeared we had no idea what their powers were so when Cas, for example, sent Dean back in time that was a new power we had no idea they could do. Hell, we didn't even know theyexistedor could pull someone out of Hell bring them back to life all healed until Cas saved Dean. How is thatdifferent? How can you expect them show us EVERYTHING aLeviathancan and can't do right at the start? They can't. We learn about them as Sam and Dean do (and occasionally learn some things they don't).


    The witch and the warlock were not mortal (in fact the episode makes it pretty clear they're immortal as they talk about encounters with Columbusamongothers) and we have no idea what nature their witchcraft is. It's pretty old magic to be sure. Also, this sounds more like a case of the nature of the power involved than the level of the power. It's not that Bobby is more powerful than an angel it's that he's a ghost and has a personal grudge (from which to draw power) again Dick himself. It's not that the immortal witch is more power than an angel it's that shewieldsancientmagic that could very well be a special weakness of theLeviathans(given that we don't know them well enough to know for sure). Just because you don't understand how and why don't automatically dismiss it until you know the whole story.


    As for Ruby I would say she was double crossing and betraying Sam in particular all along since her ultimate goal was to trick him into breaking the final seal. I would also point out her lying that she could help him save Dean and all the other BS she should have been killed over long before she was.


    I also wouldn't say that anyone has forgiven or forgotten what Meg has done but they have no one else and even Sam and Dean can't stop the Leviathan all alone. If they had Cas at full strength or anyone else she would be toast but they don't have anyone to turn to.


    Oh and there is no romance between Cas and Meg. That's in your head. Oh and I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. I rather they didn't I like being on the outside.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [26]May 5, 2012
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    Tyrathius wrote:


    But the angels had just used their teleportation getting Kevin in the room, and in the Becky episode Crowley was able to teleport in and out of Dick's car without problem. If the leviathans have some sort of power nullifier, not only has it never been mentioned, it's not applied consistently. Hell, why would leviathans be given power over angels and demons to begin with? They didn't exist when the leviathans were made.


    And then there's the issues of why God would leave angels, which are apparently powerless against leviathans, to guard a tablet about how to kill leviathans. Surely he must have seen the issue with that, so why not assign something else, or give angels the power to fight leviathans? And yeah, leviathans are the oldest known creatures in the supernatural universe barring Death and God, so why would they be vulnerable to the bone and blood of creatures created much later?


    It just seems like the writers haven't put much thought into the leviathan arc and are trying to force how dangerous they are on the audience instead of really showing it.


    You assuming that power over angels and demons has be given and doesn't justexistbecauseof how powerful they are or by their very nature or age. Heaven has angels andarchangels. That's all they got. Anyway, I doubt they wereintendedto fight them directly just take the tablet, the keeper and hide until the way to kill them was made.


    Who says you can only have weakness something that predates you. If God locked them away he probablyprepareda weakness by either putting something in everything made after OR doing something to them before they were banished (or while banished). He had to have a plan should they escape.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [27]May 5, 2012
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    Tyrathius wrote:


    But the angels had just used their teleportation getting Kevin in the room, and in the Becky episode Crowley was able to teleport in and out of Dick's car without problem. If the leviathans have some sort of power nullifier, not only has it never been mentioned, it's not applied consistently. Hell, why would leviathans be given power over angels and demons to begin with? They didn't exist when the leviathans were made.


    And then there's the issues of why God would leave angels, which are apparently powerless against leviathans, to guard a tablet about how to kill leviathans. Surely he must have seen the issue with that, so why not assign something else, or give angels the power to fight leviathans? And yeah, leviathans are the oldest known creatures in the supernatural universe barring Death and God, so why would they be vulnerable to the bone and blood of creatures created much later?


    It just seems like the writers haven't put much thought into the leviathan arc and are trying to force how dangerous they are on the audience instead of really showing it.


    I believe that Leviathans somehow cancel the angelic powers, and we've witnessed this with the Mother of All, and with this Leviathan. However, I have to agree with your remark about teleporting into the leviathan-area with no problem, but having trouble to teleport back. One answer could be that "you can get in, but you can't get out" to paraphrase the Eagles song. Castiel was able to teleport himself and the Winchesters to Meg's experimental town, but once there he couldn't do anything. Still, just why these two angels didn't notice anything weird is beyond me. As for the tablet, hmm, you might be right, it's kinda paradoxical all in all, and does sound like an afterthought. Interestingly enough, the humans had not yet been created, but a human will be able to read the tablet, and not an angel I think you raise some interesting issues, I might not agree with everything, but there's definitely something there.
    Of course it's obvious. The cancel effect is short range. You can get there but once in range you have no power and of course they wouldn't realize it until they tried to do something with their powers and found them gone. You mean the Mother don't you? Meg never had an experimental town.

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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [28]May 5, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:

    dpebbleson wrote:
    Tyrathius wrote:


    But the angels had just used their teleportation getting Kevin in the room, and in the Becky episode Crowley was able to teleport in and out of Dick's car without problem. If the leviathans have some sort of power nullifier, not only has it never been mentioned, it's not applied consistently. Hell, why would leviathans be given power over angels and demons to begin with? They didn't exist when the leviathans were made.


    And then there's the issues of why God would leave angels, which are apparently powerless against leviathans, to guard a tablet about how to kill leviathans. Surely he must have seen the issue with that, so why not assign something else, or give angels the power to fight leviathans? And yeah, leviathans are the oldest known creatures in the supernatural universe barring Death and God, so why would they be vulnerable to the bone and blood of creatures created much later?


    It just seems like the writers haven't put much thought into the leviathan arc and are trying to force how dangerous they are on the audience instead of really showing it.


    I believe that Leviathans somehow cancel the angelic powers, and we've witnessed this with the Mother of All, and with this Leviathan. However, I have to agree with your remark about teleporting into the leviathan-area with no problem, but having trouble to teleport back. One answer could be that "you can get in, but you can't get out" to paraphrase the Eagles song. Castiel was able to teleport himself and the Winchesters to Meg's experimental town, but once there he couldn't do anything. Still, just why these two angels didn't notice anything weird is beyond me. As for the tablet, hmm, you might be right, it's kinda paradoxical all in all, and does sound like an afterthought. Interestingly enough, the humans had not yet been created, but a human will be able to read the tablet, and not an angel I think you raise some interesting issues, I might not agree with everything, but there's definitely something there.
    Of course it's obvious. The cancel effect is short range. You can get there but once in range you have no power and of course they wouldn't realize it until they tried to do something with their powers and found them gone. You mean the Mother don't you? Meg never had an experimental town.



    Yeah, Mother's experimental town, my mistake
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    dman_dustin

    [29]May 5, 2012
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    Also, there's a bit of a paradox involved about the way to kill them, the bone of a righteous one, in the blood of.. I forgot what. They existed before humans as I get it. Or am I wrong?



    If a genetic mutant can only be killed by an explosive device. You can't expect a pre-explosive civilisation to be able to kill said genetic mutation. It would require a future civilisation in order to kill this creature.


    Obviously God created the Leviathans without actually understanding what he was doing. A scientist unknowingly creating a horrible fatal virus.


    You can't honestly say that in order to cure the many incurable diseases that plague the world today, that cure would have to exist prior or at the same time as the disease.


    I don't know why you are so confused. Clearly God created a "cure" after creating the "virus" (Leviathan), I mean isn't that how it works in the real world? Don't "cures" occur after the "disease."

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    vampman87

    [30]May 5, 2012
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    I thought this was a good episode because it FINALLY made the Leviathans look scary. Other than their introductory episode, the Leviathans, despite doing more than most of the Big Bads on the show (burning down Bobby's house, framing Sam and Dean for murder, killing Bobby and Frank) they haven't been very scary. Heck, in the episode with the cursed objects, the Leviathans were basically comic relief! Having Edgar (who is by far the creepiest of the group) kill two angels without the angel blade firmly establishes that these guys are older and stronger than anyone imagined. And it makes sense, since Castiel was powerless against Eve back in season 6 because she was older too.


    I'm a little confused as to all the Meg hate going on. I think her character is one of the most developed on the show. She started season 1 a heartless monster who took orders from her father, Azazel; after she was exorcised her primary goal was just simple revenge, not staying to her father's plan; in season 5 her father's master plan took full effect and so she remained loyal to Lucifer, her dad's boss; when Lucifer was defeated she pretty much lost all purpose, until Crowley took the throne and placed a hit on her. Meg is a pretty selfish person, same as Crowley. She does things to suit her own self interest, and right now all she cares about is bringing down the King of Hell. She realized that Castiel could be a great way to actually taking Crowley down, so she's made it her goal to protect him (and possibly emotionally manipulate him) until he's 100%. Although it LOOKS like she's starting to have romantic feelings for Cas, I'm pretty much betting that she's playing him just like Ruby did. Once Crowley's gone, she'll revert to the old Meg.






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    vampman87

    [31]May 5, 2012
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    mattgus wrote:
    there was a flaw that i can't overlook...the word keeper (and this was a big part of thr story)was to be protected by these angels who were called especially for this and him...soooo,if this word is about and how to kill leviathans why in all creation would he be protected by the one supernatural that is helpless in the face of what he needs protection from. am i missing something or do we just pretend that since we like this series the writers can mess up and we are suppose to look the other way. and yes they will fix it next episode we know that,but............it feels weak or false or lazy...something??? or like i said i am missing somethig syaring me in the face?


    I'm guessing the angels didn't really know about Leviathans or what they could do. Other than Cas, no angel has been on screen with them. I'm guessing the angels believed that there are only 3 realms (Heaven, Earth/our universe, and Hell) and have been trained specifically to fight demons or, if need be, other angels. Hell, if you look at every episode Cas has been in (excluding the monsters that work directly with Lucifer, like the Whore, or the final fight with Eve) Cas has NEVER been on a regular monster hunt. Almost every episode he's been in has him feuding with demons or other angels, even though he was strong enough to wipe out an entire diner full of Jefferson Starships. I'm guessing this is why Edgar was able to take out the angels so easily... they were expecting demons, but they got something far older and stronger.
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    dpebbleson

    [32]May 5, 2012
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    dman_dustin wrote:

    You can't honestly say that in order to cure the many incurable diseases that plague the world today, that cure would have to exist prior or at the same time as the disease.



    I wasn't saying that, don't generalize my comments, and besides I put "Am I wrong?", so I didn't say I was right, I was merely speculating. Is that forbidden?

    dman_dustin wrote:
    I don't know why you are so confused. Clearly God created a "cure" after creating the "virus" (Leviathan), I mean isn't that how it works in the real world? Don't "cures" occur after the "disease."



    Same here. I'm not debating what's older, cure or disease, I was speculating about when God made the tablet, before or after humans were made.
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    vampman87

    [34]May 5, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:



    I am not necessarily opposed to the idea of leviathans being stronger than angels. What I didn't like is how they just suddenly are, with no reason as to why. Going by what we've previously seen angels do, and what we've previously seen leviathans do, angels are by far the more powerful of the two. Worse, the way Edgar killed the angels, it specifically relied of them not doing anything to stop him. Earlier in the season, a mortal witch was able to incapacitate a leviathan with a simple spell he made on the spot. Last week Bobby was able to (temporarily) hold back Dick Roman himself. -Do you really expect me to believe that a witch and a ghost are stronger than two angels? Even if their usual facemelting touch won't work on a leviathan, an angel should have more than enough mojo to throw around to stop it and, failing that, can still move much faster than the leviathan and should have had time to grab Kevin and his mother and run. If Aquaman wins because of some previously unintroduced ability that has absolutely no setup in the story, do you know what that is? Deus ex machina, that's what.


    [/QUOTE]



    Edgar seems to be physically stronger than most of the Leviathans. Chet (the one who got blasted by the witch) seemed only slightly stronger than the boys, as did Joyce (the real estate lady) and George, her assistant. Plus Bobby was able to knock down a big burly Leviathan with a crowbar and knocked down another with a bullet to the head by a revolver. Edgar, on the other hand, withstood a shotgun blast to the head and almost killed Sam and Dean on their first encounter with him.

    Edited on 05/05/2012 1:27pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of Tyrathius

    Tyrathius

    [35]May 5, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    Tyrathius wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Tyrathius wrote:


    I'm not sure what to think of that bit at the end, with the leviathan killing the angels. On the one hand, up until now they haven't done anything to make them seem that dangerous (at least compared to the other monsters on the show) and having them knock off a few angel mooks does make them seem more capable. On the other hand, it seems really contrived -that whole chest stabbing thing was never seen or mentioned as an ability of the leviathans or a weakness of the angels, and up until now, Zachariah was the only angel to be killed (onscreen) by something other than an angel. And that was with an angel-killing weapon while he was distracted. Angels move and react too fast to be vulnerable to humans and demons, and since leviathans possess no teleportation or super speed, I don't see why they'd be any different. The first one, perhaps he could have caught off guard, but the second had ample time to realize what was going on and either flee or strike back. Rather than making leviathans seem strong, it made the angels seem weak. Angels have so many more powers than leviathans (ex. facemelting, teleportation, reality warping, time traveling, resurrection) it's like Superman vs. Aquaman, only Aquaman wins just because.


    Meg's time on this show should have ended in the second or fifth season, they're trying to make her into an anti-hero and she just doesn't work as one. This is a character who kidnapped John, possessed Sam, and mortally wounded Jo (or at least told a hellhound to). She's done too much as a villain and too little to redeem herself to work as a good guy. It makes you wonder why Dean did not simply stab her with the demon-killing knife while she was in the Devil's Trap, or when she was tied to a torture rack in Caged Heat. Especially after Ruby and Crowley, and their respective backstabbings. I also can't understand why Castiel would trust her more than Sam and Dean, when he claims to remember everything they've done together, and Meg openly admits to only wanting him around as a potential weapon against Crowley. Even when she was "taking care" of him, he was unconscious for most of that time and wasn't able to bond with her.


    Those were my two biggest things with the episode. Otherwise, I thought it was alright but not great. I wasn't particularly impressed by the guest actors. The story is starting to move for the first time since the season midpoint (everything that was "revealed" last week we'd known since the drugged hamburgers) but I just can't seem to immerse myself in it like I did with earlier seasons.


    I really don't get you people and yourobsessionwith flashy shows of power. It's notnecessarilyfor the new monster on the block to come in and just start showing off all their powers and stuff right off the bat. The thing about theLeviathans(and probably why they were picked ) is that little to nothing is actually laid out about them other than they're very powerful and their name. They're a clean slate and this obsession with having to know all their powers and stuff right off the bat is just silly. They're very powerful and we dont' know the half of it, end of story. Oh and in the Superman VS Aquaman thing IF Aquaman wins it's becasue he's actually way more powerful than some people seem to realize (superhuman strength, reflexes, resistance,etc...) if you read the comics (the well written ones) you would know he's way more than Super Friends cartoon made him out to be (a guy who talks to fish).


    They're not trying to make her into an anti-hero. She is what she's always been, a self serving b itch trying to save her own backside anyway she can. If she's coming off that way it's because she's trying to worn her way into Sam and Dean's (especially Sam since he's more vulnerable to that sort of thing, or was at least) good graces to save her own life. They're keep her aroundbecause, in case you haven't noticed, they've run out of people to work with and even though they don't like her or trust her they at least have someone around. They can't do it all alone and with Bobby a now you see him, now you don't ghost and everyone else just dead they can't afford to be picky, for now.




    And I really don't get why you think everyone has to agree with you.


    I am not necessarily opposed to the idea of leviathans being stronger than angels. What I didn't like is how they just suddenly are, with no reason as to why. Going by what we've previously seen angels do, and what we've previously seen leviathans do, angels are by far the more powerful of the two. Worse, the way Edgar killed the angels, it specifically relied of them not doing anything to stop him. Earlier in the season, a mortal witch was able to incapacitate a leviathan with a simple spell he made on the spot. Last week Bobby was able to (temporarily) hold back Dick Roman himself. -Do you really expect me to believe that a witch and a ghost are stronger than two angels? Even if their usual facemelting touch won't work on a leviathan, an angel should have more than enough mojo to throw around to stop it and, failing that, can still move much faster than the leviathan and should have had time to grab Kevin and his mother and run. If Aquaman wins because of some previously unintroduced ability that has absolutely no setup in the story, do you know what that is? Deus ex machina, that's what.


    Eve was able to nullify Castiel's powers, but this was explicitly stated as an ability of hers, and she's clearly not the same kind of creature as the leviathans to begin with (she creates monsters, as far as we know leviathans don't reproduce, she needed a human host, leviathans are shapeshifters, etc.) Not to mention the angels had literally just used their powers teleporting into the room with the leviathan.


    As far as Meg goes, yes, she's still a self-serving bitch. That's what makes her an anti-hero -She's fighting on the side of good despite her villainous nature. The problem is she's done so much bad it just doesn't work. Ruby and Crowley worked because neither of them had done anything to cross the Winchesters prior to their team-ups. Meg has caused the Winchesters quite a bit of trouble and grief over the years, and neither of them are the sort to just forgive and forget regardless of how dire the situation is. And that her romance with Castiel requires him to be acting vastly out of character for it to work is probably a sign that it's not a good idea.


    There is a majordifferencebetween not being able to do something and just not having done something yet. As I recall when angles first appeared we had no idea what their powers were so when Cas, for example, sent Dean back in time that was a new power we had no idea they could do. Hell, we didn't even know theyexistedor could pull someone out of Hell bring them back to life all healed until Cas saved Dean. How is thatdifferent? How can you expect them show us EVERYTHING aLeviathancan and can't do right at the start? They can't. We learn about them as Sam and Dean do (and occasionally learn some things they don't).


    The witch and the warlock were not mortal (in fact the episode makes it pretty clear they're immortal as they talk about encounters with Columbusamongothers) and we have no idea what nature their witchcraft is. It's pretty old magic to be sure. Also, this sounds more like a case of the nature of the power involved than the level of the power. It's not that Bobby is more powerful than an angel it's that he's a ghost and has a personal grudge (from which to draw power) again Dick himself. It's not that the immortal witch is more power than an angel it's that shewieldsancientmagic that could very well be a special weakness of theLeviathans(given that we don't know them well enough to know for sure). Just because you don't understand how and why don't automatically dismiss it until you know the whole story.


    As for Ruby I would say she was double crossing and betraying Sam in particular all along since her ultimate goal was to trick him into breaking the final seal. I would also point out her lying that she could help him save Dean and all the other BS she should have been killed over long before she was.


    I also wouldn't say that anyone has forgiven or forgotten what Meg has done but they have no one else and even Sam and Dean can't stop the Leviathan all alone. If they had Cas at full strength or anyone else she would be toast but they don't have anyone to turn to.


    Oh and there is no romance between Cas and Meg. That's in your head. Oh and I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. I rather they didn't I like being on the outside.


    The difference is, angels were set up from their first appearance as these beings of great and cosmic power. Castiel's voice alone was enough to shred the gas station Dean took refuge in. A glimpse of his true form burned out Pamela's eyes. His first act on the show is to pull Dean out of Hell with no consequences at all, something that -at the time- was unheard of in the setting. It was believable that the angels were able to do things like time travel because they had been set up as being extremely powerful from the moment they were introduced.


    This is where the Leviathans fall short. We were told they were powerful. We were told they were a threat. But we were never really shown that power. Up until now, the Leviathans were basically just shapeshifters without the usual weaknesses. Dangerous, certainly, but compared to some of the things Sam and Dean have faced in the past, nothing special. Thus, when they were suddenly capable of killing angels in last night's episode (beings whose power in the show is well established) it comes off as being contrived. It wasn't believable that a Leviathan could kill an angel any more than it would be believable a vampire could.


    Perhaps I should have clarified, the witches were mortal in the sense that they were human. They were not monsters or angels or any sort of supernatural creature, just regular humans who strengthened themselves with black magic. If one of them was able to defeat a leviathan, it's hard to believe an angel wouldn't be able to.


    They managed without Meg for the first half of the season, and that was before they had a lead on how to kill the leviathans. Why do they suddenly need her now? They don't, the writers just want to have her around for some reason. And no, it's not just in my head, the show is certainly playing with the idea of a relationship between Meg and Castiel. Whether it will go anywhere or not is another issue, but they kissed in Caged Heat, and Castiel clearly cared about her in last night's episode (even calling her "beautiful" at one point).


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  • Avatar of Tyrathius

    Tyrathius

    [36]May 5, 2012
    • member since: 09/27/11
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    Well Eve's reason to why she could block Cas power was that she was older and knew how angels worked/ticked. So why wouldnt something thats OLDER then Eve know the samething she did.


    Two problems with this. One, it was never actually stated in the show that this was the reason the angels were helpless against the leviathans, and unless it is in one of the next couple, this is just fan speculation.


    Two, assuming it is correct, why does it only work on angels? They're also older than demons and ghosts and witches, but didn't/couldn't nullify them.


    vampman87 wrote:
    mattgus wrote:
    there was a flaw that i can't overlook...the word keeper (and this was a big part of thr story)was to be protected by these angels who were called especially for this and him...soooo,if this word is about and how to kill leviathans why in all creation would he be protected by the one supernatural that is helpless in the face of what he needs protection from. am i missing something or do we just pretend that since we like this series the writers can mess up and we are suppose to look the other way. and yes they will fix it next episode we know that,but............it feels weak or false or lazy...something??? or like i said i am missing somethig syaring me in the face?
    I'm guessing the angels didn't really know about Leviathans or what they could do. Other than Cas, no angel has been on screen with them. I'm guessing the angels believed that there are only 3 realms (Heaven, Earth/our universe, and Hell) and have been trained specifically to fight demons or, if need be, other angels. Hell, if you look at every episode Cas has been in (excluding the monsters that work directly with Lucifer, like the Whore, or the final fight with Eve) Cas has NEVER been on a regular monster hunt. Almost every episode he's been in has him feuding with demons or other angels, even though he was strong enough to wipe out an entire diner full of Jefferson Starships. I'm guessing this is why Edgar was able to take out the angels so easily... they were expecting demons, but they got something far older and stronger.


    Castiel killed a vampire in Mommy Dearest, and once Eve was dealt with in the same episode, immediately decimated all of her remaining Jefferson Starships. Angels are clearly able to deal with most monsters, Eve was the exception (and apparently so are leviathans).


    Though really, that thing with Eve being immune to Castiel's powers because she's older than him was just a hand wave to explain why he didn't just teleport in and shove the ashes down her throat before she could process what was going on. It's a bit depressing that we're having to use it to justify the leviathans now.

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  • Avatar of CharmedOneP391

    CharmedOneP391

    [37]May 5, 2012
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    I actually liked the idea of the Leviathans being stronger than Angels. Yeah, maybe there should've been a hint to that earlier in the season or something...but nonetheless that I enjoyed the plot twist. I thought...Okay maybe God created Leviathans after the Angels...so he made his second creation stronger? I mean that would be true if you look at Humans as well...we may not have the powers in physical form while on Earth but our spirits can stay on Earth...go to hell and become a demon..or go to Heaven. Souls are very powerful...I'd like to see a human who can actually tap into his soul's power.



    I loved seeing other Angels because I've been wondering whats been going on in Heaven since CasGod merked them back in the premiere.


    It was nice seeing an expansion on the Prophet story and how they come to be. Maybe Chuck (if he's not God) came to be when Dean first picked up Sam from school in the Pilot?



    Although I'm not against her character, because I love the fact that she's been around since Season 1. Meg is selfish. It's translucent. I will be very upset if the brothers end up being "surprised" by her double cross when it happens, or at all not prepared for it. They know what demons do...and have been burned before (by this demon actually.)


    I like Castiel's new attitude. I don't need him to be the exact way he was in Season 4 & 5. Things have happened...he's somehow turned the Lucifer hallucinations into a somewhat trippy, "I see everything as it truly is" aspect. I enjoyed it. Something new. I have a feeling he may be killed off in the finale and maybe sent to Purgatory. Where do Angels go when they die? Are they just...over?


    I do agree they need to chill with the Castiel/Meg storyline. It was funny at first last season...but now it's just...odd and I don't know..maybe they can somehow work around it..but it's quite strange.


    Also what are the Leviathans going to do with the Prophet? Keep him..Kill him? The Brothers already know what the Word of God said.


    I enjoyed this episode...a lot of info and return to a few previous unexplained plots.


    Question: Why was (God?) trying to tell the brothers to not break the clay? Because he knew they would anyway?


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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [38]May 5, 2012
    • member since: 10/04/05
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    dpebbleson wrote:
    Tyrathius wrote:


    But the angels had just used their teleportation getting Kevin in the room, and in the Becky episode Crowley was able to teleport in and out of Dick's car without problem. If the leviathans have some sort of power nullifier, not only has it never been mentioned, it's not applied consistently. Hell, why would leviathans be given power over angels and demons to begin with? They didn't exist when the leviathans were made.


    And then there's the issues of why God would leave angels, which are apparently powerless against leviathans, to guard a tablet about how to kill leviathans. Surely he must have seen the issue with that, so why not assign something else, or give angels the power to fight leviathans? And yeah, leviathans are the oldest known creatures in the supernatural universe barring Death and God, so why would they be vulnerable to the bone and blood of creatures created much later?


    It just seems like the writers haven't put much thought into the leviathan arc and are trying to force how dangerous they are on the audience instead of really showing it.


    I believe that Leviathans somehow cancel the angelic powers, and we've witnessed this with the Mother of All, and with this Leviathan. However, I have to agree with your remark about teleporting into the leviathan-area with no problem, but having trouble to teleport back. One answer could be that "you can get in, but you can't get out" to paraphrase the Eagles song. Castiel was able to teleport himself and the Winchesters to Meg's experimental town, but once there he couldn't do anything. Still, just why these two angels didn't notice anything weird is beyond me. As for the tablet, hmm, you might be right, it's kinda paradoxical all in all, and does sound like an afterthought. Interestingly enough, the humans had not yet been created, but a human will be able to read the tablet, and not an angel I think you raise some interesting issues, I might not agree with everything, but there's definitely something there.
    Of course it's obvious. The cancel effect is short range. You can get there but once in range you have no power and of course they wouldn't realize it until they tried to do something with their powers and found them gone. You mean the Mother don't you? Meg never had an experimental town.


    Yeah, Mother's experimental town, my mistake
    Still your point was correct. The effect wouldn't kick in until the angel was there and then they couldn't leave. It's not like they can cancel their powers out everywhere all at once. Wouldn't really need to either.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [39]May 5, 2012
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    vampman87 wrote:



    libra113 wrote:



    I am not necessarily opposed to the idea of leviathans being stronger than angels. What I didn't like is how they just suddenly are, with no reason as to why. Going by what we've previously seen angels do, and what we've previously seen leviathans do, angels are by far the more powerful of the two. Worse, the way Edgar killed the angels, it specifically relied of them not doing anything to stop him. Earlier in the season, a mortal witch was able to incapacitate a leviathan with a simple spell he made on the spot. Last week Bobby was able to (temporarily) hold back Dick Roman himself. -Do you really expect me to believe that a witch and a ghost are stronger than two angels? Even if their usual facemelting touch won't work on a leviathan, an angel should have more than enough mojo to throw around to stop it and, failing that, can still move much faster than the leviathan and should have had time to grab Kevin and his mother and run. If Aquaman wins because of some previously unintroduced ability that has absolutely no setup in the story, do you know what that is? Deus ex machina, that's what.




    Edgar seems to be physically stronger than most of the Leviathans. Chet (the one who got blasted by the witch) seemed only slightly stronger than the boys, as did Joyce (the real estate lady) and George, her assistant. Plus Bobby was able to knock down a big burly Leviathan with a crowbar and knocked down another with a bullet to the head by a revolver. Edgar, on the other hand, withstood a shotgun blast to the head and almost killed Sam and Dean on their first encounter with him.


    [/QUOTE] But it's not suddenly. They always have been stronger it's just there haven't been any angels around for them to fight so WE could see it. We don't know that much about theLeviathans(just like Sam and Dean) and until we see them fight angels (for example) we can't possibly know what they can and can't do. We just learned they can smoke angels pretty quickly and easily.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [40]May 5, 2012
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    Tyrathius wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Tyrathius wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Tyrathius wrote:


    I'm not sure what to think of that bit at the end, with the leviathan killing the angels. On the one hand, up until now they haven't done anything to make them seem that dangerous (at least compared to the other monsters on the show) and having them knock off a few angel mooks does make them seem more capable. On the other hand, it seems really contrived -that whole chest stabbing thing was never seen or mentioned as an ability of the leviathans or a weakness of the angels, and up until now, Zachariah was the only angel to be killed (onscreen) by something other than an angel. And that was with an angel-killing weapon while he was distracted. Angels move and react too fast to be vulnerable to humans and demons, and since leviathans possess no teleportation or super speed, I don't see why they'd be any different. The first one, perhaps he could have caught off guard, but the second had ample time to realize what was going on and either flee or strike back. Rather than making leviathans seem strong, it made the angels seem weak. Angels have so many more powers than leviathans (ex. facemelting, teleportation, reality warping, time traveling, resurrection) it's like Superman vs. Aquaman, only Aquaman wins just because.


    Meg's time on this show should have ended in the second or fifth season, they're trying to make her into an anti-hero and she just doesn't work as one. This is a character who kidnapped John, possessed Sam, and mortally wounded Jo (or at least told a hellhound to). She's done too much as a villain and too little to redeem herself to work as a good guy. It makes you wonder why Dean did not simply stab her with the demon-killing knife while she was in the Devil's Trap, or when she was tied to a torture rack in Caged Heat. Especially after Ruby and Crowley, and their respective backstabbings. I also can't understand why Castiel would trust her more than Sam and Dean, when he claims to remember everything they've done together, and Meg openly admits to only wanting him around as a potential weapon against Crowley. Even when she was "taking care" of him, he was unconscious for most of that time and wasn't able to bond with her.


    Those were my two biggest things with the episode. Otherwise, I thought it was alright but not great. I wasn't particularly impressed by the guest actors. The story is starting to move for the first time since the season midpoint (everything that was "revealed" last week we'd known since the drugged hamburgers) but I just can't seem to immerse myself in it like I did with earlier seasons.


    I really don't get you people and yourobsessionwith flashy shows of power. It's notnecessarilyfor the new monster on the block to come in and just start showing off all their powers and stuff right off the bat. The thing about theLeviathans(and probably why they were picked ) is that little to nothing is actually laid out about them other than they're very powerful and their name. They're a clean slate and this obsession with having to know all their powers and stuff right off the bat is just silly. They're very powerful and we dont' know the half of it, end of story. Oh and in the Superman VS Aquaman thing IF Aquaman wins it's becasue he's actually way more powerful than some people seem to realize (superhuman strength, reflexes, resistance,etc...) if you read the comics (the well written ones) you would know he's way more than Super Friends cartoon made him out to be (a guy who talks to fish).


    They're not trying to make her into an anti-hero. She is what she's always been, a self serving b itch trying to save her own backside anyway she can. If she's coming off that way it's because she's trying to worn her way into Sam and Dean's (especially Sam since he's more vulnerable to that sort of thing, or was at least) good graces to save her own life. They're keep her aroundbecause, in case you haven't noticed, they've run out of people to work with and even though they don't like her or trust her they at least have someone around. They can't do it all alone and with Bobby a now you see him, now you don't ghost and everyone else just dead they can't afford to be picky, for now.




    And I really don't get why you think everyone has to agree with you.


    I am not necessarily opposed to the idea of leviathans being stronger than angels. What I didn't like is how they just suddenly are, with no reason as to why. Going by what we've previously seen angels do, and what we've previously seen leviathans do, angels are by far the more powerful of the two. Worse, the way Edgar killed the angels, it specifically relied of them not doing anything to stop him. Earlier in the season, a mortal witch was able to incapacitate a leviathan with a simple spell he made on the spot. Last week Bobby was able to (temporarily) hold back Dick Roman himself. -Do you really expect me to believe that a witch and a ghost are stronger than two angels? Even if their usual facemelting touch won't work on a leviathan, an angel should have more than enough mojo to throw around to stop it and, failing that, can still move much faster than the leviathan and should have had time to grab Kevin and his mother and run. If Aquaman wins because of some previously unintroduced ability that has absolutely no setup in the story, do you know what that is? Deus ex machina, that's what.


    Eve was able to nullify Castiel's powers, but this was explicitly stated as an ability of hers, and she's clearly not the same kind of creature as the leviathans to begin with (she creates monsters, as far as we know leviathans don't reproduce, she needed a human host, leviathans are shapeshifters, etc.) Not to mention the angels had literally just used their powers teleporting into the room with the leviathan.


    As far as Meg goes, yes, she's still a self-serving bitch. That's what makes her an anti-hero -She's fighting on the side of good despite her villainous nature. The problem is she's done so much bad it just doesn't work. Ruby and Crowley worked because neither of them had done anything to cross the Winchesters prior to their team-ups. Meg has caused the Winchesters quite a bit of trouble and grief over the years, and neither of them are the sort to just forgive and forget regardless of how dire the situation is. And that her romance with Castiel requires him to be acting vastly out of character for it to work is probably a sign that it's not a good idea.


    There is a majordifferencebetween not being able to do something and just not having done something yet. As I recall when angles first appeared we had no idea what their powers were so when Cas, for example, sent Dean back in time that was a new power we had no idea they could do. Hell, we didn't even know theyexistedor could pull someone out of Hell bring them back to life all healed until Cas saved Dean. How is thatdifferent? How can you expect them show us EVERYTHING aLeviathancan and can't do right at the start? They can't. We learn about them as Sam and Dean do (and occasionally learn some things they don't).


    The witch and the warlock were not mortal (in fact the episode makes it pretty clear they're immortal as they talk about encounters with Columbusamongothers) and we have no idea what nature their witchcraft is. It's pretty old magic to be sure. Also, this sounds more like a case of the nature of the power involved than the level of the power. It's not that Bobby is more powerful than an angel it's that he's a ghost and has a personal grudge (from which to draw power) again Dick himself. It's not that the immortal witch is more power than an angel it's that shewieldsancientmagic that could very well be a special weakness of theLeviathans(given that we don't know them well enough to know for sure). Just because you don't understand how and why don't automatically dismiss it until you know the whole story.


    As for Ruby I would say she was double crossing and betraying Sam in particular all along since her ultimate goal was to trick him into breaking the final seal. I would also point out her lying that she could help him save Dean and all the other BS she should have been killed over long before she was.


    I also wouldn't say that anyone has forgiven or forgotten what Meg has done but they have no one else and even Sam and Dean can't stop the Leviathan all alone. If they had Cas at full strength or anyone else she would be toast but they don't have anyone to turn to.


    Oh and there is no romance between Cas and Meg. That's in your head. Oh and I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. I rather they didn't I like being on the outside.


    The difference is, angels were set up from their first appearance as these beings of great and cosmic power. Castiel's voice alone was enough to shred the gas station Dean took refuge in. A glimpse of his true form burned out Pamela's eyes. His first act on the show is to pull Dean out of Hell with no consequences at all, something that -at the time- was unheard of in the setting. It was believable that the angels were able to do things like time travel because they had been set up as being extremely powerful from the moment they were introduced.


    This is where the Leviathans fall short. We were told they were powerful. We were told they were a threat. But we were never really shown that power. Up until now, the Leviathans were basically just shapeshifters without the usual weaknesses. Dangerous, certainly, but compared to some of the things Sam and Dean have faced in the past, nothing special. Thus, when they were suddenly capable of killing angels in last night's episode (beings whose power in the show is well established) it comes off as being contrived. It wasn't believable that a Leviathan could kill an angel any more than it would be believable a vampire could.


    Perhaps I should have clarified, the witches were mortal in the sense that they were human. They were not monsters or angels or any sort of supernatural creature, just regular humans who strengthened themselves with black magic. If one of them was able to defeat a leviathan, it's hard to believe an angel wouldn't be able to.


    They managed without Meg for the first half of the season, and that was before they had a lead on how to kill the leviathans. Why do they suddenly need her now? They don't, the writers just want to have her around for some reason. And no, it's not just in my head, the show is certainly playing with the idea of a relationship between Meg and Castiel. Whether it will go anywhere or not is another issue, but they kissed in Caged Heat, and Castiel clearly cared about her in last night's episode (even calling her "beautiful" at one point).



    Okay and just what senerio do you imagine them showing their great power? The angels have been absent until now (so just now we see what they can do against angels). We've seen them with demons and clearly demons can't contend with them or they would have done so already.


    As for the witches, again, we don't know what sort of magic they use. You can't just assume that all magic is created equal and there are more things in the world that just black magic and white magic. There areEgyptianMagicsfor example and cosmicmagicsand so forth. Given their age they could be tapping into a very primial and powerful force of magic (even if they are pretty petty with their use of it).


    The only other witches we've seen with immortality were the two in the Halloween episode and they were powerful enough to mask their location from angels so clearly some witches can get pretty powerful when they havecenturiesto gatherknowledgeand hone their skills.


    It's also possible that while very powerLeviathanshave a special weakness to witchcraft or even Earthly magic in general given that there's a humancomponentin the way to kill them. In factjudgingfrom the ad for next week it sounds like the method to kill them requires human/demon/angelingredientsforcing all of the later creations of God to join forces (or at least be of one mind or goal) to make the method to kill them.

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