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Official Discussion Thread: Reading is Fundamental (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [61]May 6, 2012
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    RichardCarlso wrote:


    "SInce Dean is still being rude and like an upset preteen about what happened between them. If Sam can forgive and understand Cas why can't Dean get off his high horse and treat Cas with some respect or at least understanding if not full forgiveness."


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Dean has always pretty much treated Castiel like crap. He has no use for Castiel except when he wants him to do a favor for him. Deans attitude toward Castiel is,,,"hey, buddy, when I snap my fingers you drop everything and get down here, understand?" Dean can be a real dick at times, and he showed it again when he threw the game board off the table.


    You gotta understand that Dean is really sensitive about people he considers friends doing things he doesn't agree with. He was that way with the Sam thing (he was right), he is that way with Bobby and his ghost thing (time will tell) and he's that way with Cas (and Cas did create the whole Levithan sitution).


    It's easier for Sam to forgive because he's been there but Dean doesn't take these things too well. As for how he treats Cas I can't disagree with thatcompletely, it's a touch of what we saw from future Dean in "The End". He's driven and when things are really bad he only has time for what's going to help and the rest is just a waste of time (he's done it with Bobby before too but Bobby called him out on it). Hopefully, there will come a time where things can calm down enough and he can cool off enough for things to addressed but right now he's still angry and in full crisis mode.

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    RichardCarlso

    [62]May 6, 2012
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    I am worried about Cas and Meg's influence over him.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I would be more worried about Lucifer's influence over him. I never accepted that Lucifer was just a hallucination of Sam's. What totally convinced me was the ep where Sam and Lucifer are sitting at a table. Sam gets angry and tells the Lucifer/hallucination to shut up, then gets up from the table and walks away. Once Sam is out of earshot, Luci says to himself,,,"he said shut up to me." Hallucinations do not talk to themselves because they don't exist. And when Castiel took Sam's memories into himself, Castiel was terrified when Luci said,,,"hello, brother." Somehow I think a part of Lucifer has managed leave the Cage, or influence things outside of it. And I don't think the return of Meg is just an accident. She's a Lucifer loyalist, and may try to release all of Lucifer from the Cage, again. Maybe Crowley knows she is on to something, and thats why he is so desperate to kill her. The last thing Crowley would want is Lucifer free again, as he would be number one on Luci's hit list.

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  • Avatar of AntonBeechWeb

    AntonBeechWeb

    [63]May 6, 2012
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    Hi trying to find out if the application/program the character Kevin was using on his mac is available, anyone know if it is available or what it is called. I have seen a screen cap and it looks like it s called Daily Planner but I cannot find it.



    Thanks Anton

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [64]May 6, 2012
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    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I am worried about Cas and Meg's influence over him.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I would be more worried about Lucifer's influence over him. I never accepted that Lucifer was just a hallucination of Sam's. What totally convinced me was the ep where Sam and Lucifer are sitting at a table. Sam gets angry and tells the Lucifer/hallucination to shut up, then gets up from the table and walks away. Once Sam is out of earshot, Luci says to himself,,,"he said shut up to me." Hallucinations do not talk to themselves because they don't exist. And when Castiel took Sam's memories into himself, Castiel was terrified when Luci said,,,"hello, brother." Somehow I think a part of Lucifer has managed leave the Cage, or influence things outside of it. And I don't think the return of Meg is just an accident. She's a Lucifer loyalist, and may try to release all of Lucifer from the Cage, again. Maybe Crowley knows she is on to something, and thats why he is so desperate to kill her. The last thing Crowley would want is Lucifer free again, as he would be number one on Luci's hit list.


    No. That's a step backward and I seriously doubt that they would want to take a step backward and live in the show's past. For all the talk about losing it's edge and jumping the shark THAT would be the true point the show fell apart. Any show that tries to go backward and rehash the past really has lived past it's sell by date.


    There's nothing new that Lucifer can bring to the table. He gets out and it's back to season five all over again and that story is over and done with.

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  • Avatar of RichardCarlso

    RichardCarlso

    [65]May 6, 2012
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    Have to admit I was also shocked at how powerless the Angels were against the Leviathan, and how easily they were killed. The first Angel was totally caught by surprise and didn't know what hit him. The second Angel had time to raise his hand and tried to zap the Levi, and was surprised when nothing happened. It was especially surprising considering Sam and Dean could at least temporarily slow them down with borax or by dropping a car on them. Bobby could push Dick across the room. The warlock Don has been the most effective so far when he knocked out/paralyzed one for three days. Angels should be far more powerful than witches.


    On the other hand, Dick was caught by surprise by Bobby because he was invisible. And the Levi Don stopped was unprepared also, because he had his back to Don. He didn't see what was coming. The Levi facing the Angels guarding the prophet, though, were prepared. Maybe they had erected a force field (Star Trek) that nullified the Angels powers.


    So now we know regular Angels like Castiel and the two guarding the prophet are powerless against the Levi when they are prepared. But how about Archangels like Lucifer? They are far, far more powerful than regular Angels. Castiel described Archangels as God's nuclear weapons. Raphael easily destroyed Cas. And Luci obliterated Cas with a snap of his fingers.

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    danharr

    [66]May 6, 2012
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    I liked the episode and as to the angels. Their "magic" powers only work on other spirit beings and the Leviathan are not spiritual. So the Leviathan didn't suddenly get powerful, without the magic edge. Angels are in human flesh with no protection so yes a eon's old creature can punch though them and ooze them to death. I think a lot of you have forgotten the rules of vessels angels are nothing but spirits from heaven in human vessels. I didn't read all the comments hope I'm not repeating what someone else already posted.

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  • Avatar of RichardCarlso

    RichardCarlso

    [67]May 6, 2012
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    No. That's a step backward and I seriously doubt that they would want to take a step backward and live in the show's past. For all the talk about losing it's edge and jumping the shark THAT would be the true point the show fell apart. Any show that tries to go backward and rehash the past really has lived past it's sell by date.

    There's nothing new that Lucifer can bring to the table. He gets out and it's back to season five all over again and that story is over and done with.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Have to disagree. The monster of the week episodes were and still are great, but I think the show really took off (in my case, anyway) when it went into the Heaven and Hell and Angel and Demon line. Many (not me) think the show lost it's edge with the Leviathan. One of this seasons biggest highlights has been the return of Mark Pellegrino. If the show tries to make a complete break with the past, they might as well get rid of all the characters except Sam and Dean. And there is unfinished business. There is still a war in Heaven. And where did God go off to? Is Chuck God, as some believe? Thats still a big mystery.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [69]May 6, 2012
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    RichardCarlso wrote:
    No. That's a step backward and I seriously doubt that they would want to take a step backward and live in the show's past. For all the talk about losing it's edge and jumping the shark THAT would be the true point the show fell apart. Any show that tries to go backward and rehash the past really has lived past it's sell by date. There's nothing new that Lucifer can bring to the table. He gets out and it's back to season five all over again and that story is over and done with. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have to disagree. The monster of the week episodes were and still are great, but I think the show really took off (in my case, anyway) when it went into the Heaven and Hell and Angel and Demon line. Many (not me) think the show lost it's edge with the Leviathan. One of this seasons biggest highlights has been the return of Mark Pellegrino. If the show tries to make a complete break with the past, they might as well get rid of all the characters except Sam and Dean. And there is unfinished business. There is still a war in Heaven. And where did God go off to? Is Chuck God, as some believe? Thats still a big mystery.
    I just don't see anything new coming from that. Lucifer gets free and goes right back to trying to end the world and we've been there and done that and there's nothing new to be said or done going down that path.


    Sure there are things they didn't really resolve and sure the whole arch SHOULD have been done over season five AND six but the ship has sailed. It's too late now and shows should NEVER go backward. Once a story is put to bed (so to speak) that should be end of that story.


    Otherwise why not just find a way to bring back Yellow Eyes, or Lilith or anyone else? Why retread all that? The only time a show does that is when it really is all out of fresh ideas and they're not out of fresh ideas.


    No one said forget the past entirely but Lucifer was defeated and his plan was ended no point in starting it up all over again.

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    gatoraderising

    [70]May 6, 2012
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    RichardCarlso wrote:
    No. That's a step backward and I seriously doubt that they would want to take a step backward and live in the show's past. For all the talk about losing it's edge and jumping the shark THAT would be the true point the show fell apart. Any show that tries to go backward and rehash the past really has lived past it's sell by date.

    There's nothing new that Lucifer can bring to the table. He gets out and it's back to season five all over again and that story is over and done with.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Have to disagree. The monster of the week episodes were and still are great, but I think the show really took off (in my case, anyway) when it went into the Heaven and Hell and Angel and Demon line. Many (not me) think the show lost it's edge with the Leviathan. One of this seasons biggest highlights has been the return of Mark Pellegrino. If the show tries to make a complete break with the past, they might as well get rid of all the characters except Sam and Dean. And there is unfinished business. There is still a war in Heaven. And where did God go off to? Is Chuck God, as some believe? Thats still a big mystery.


    The war in heaven is over. It ended last season/first ep of this season when Cas killed Raph then killed all the angels on Raph's side. We know God on Earth somewhere too. Really the only unfinished thing about season 5/6 is that Adam is still in the cage.
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    Beecharm3r2

    [71]May 6, 2012
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    I don't think Castiel's 'asexual' as he was checking out the prostitute in Season 5 but I think he just hasn't acted on his feelings. (Except by meeting & marrying his 'wife'). And I'd absolutely HATE it if Castiel hooked up with Meg. Awkward, weird, and so so wrong. I still don't know why she's alive at this point, after the Sam possession and then Jo's death...I couldn't understand why Sam & Dean weren't furious when she and Cas made with the smoochies in the first place. And I'll never understand why the writers don't just take time to introduce and develop a woman to be a love interest. Other shows do it. Brief little bits of her personality here and there, and then finally they start dating. I hope that if there is a romance on the show, that the woman ISN'T Meg and that they approach it like writing a novel. You can't just go BAM! And the couple's in love. 'Cause you do that and we hate it.

    Also, I forgot to clarify that when I said Hester & the other angel were Archangels, it's because it was the description listed in my PVR for the show's summary. I know they can be wrong but I just assumed it was the standard weekly press release for an episode summary that was used on all stations. It basically said "Sam and Dean discover a new prophet and try to keep him away from two Archangels".

    I read and article online this morning and the author pointed out that bringing in Kevin's character was a great idea because it was a rare reminder that there is still normality in the world and that a lot of people don't usually see the Supernatural side of it. It's just another reason to like the character and I do think it's something that was missing. I think that's why some people mention it could be a good idea to introduce new characters. New characters bring new perspectives and I think that's needed now that we're going to go into Season 8.
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    taxcat11

    [72]May 6, 2012
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    I wasn't thrilled with Daphne (Castiel's wife) originally but now I hope she manages to track down Cas because he needs to be in the hands of someone who can care for him. Whatever Meg thinks she can use him for I don't know but it won't be in Cas' best interests. Dean & Sam are too busy to try and "fix" him even if they can. Really Cas was better off being a "healer" then he is now, at least he was being useful & doing good. Also I wonder if maybe Daphne didn't have a "surprise" for her husband - I mean I can't see why she was introduced unless she does. We have seen a cambion, so we should see the other side of the coin and meet a nephilim.

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    taxcat11

    [73]May 6, 2012
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    Personally I think keeping Meg as a character was a mistake. Nicki Aycox so owns that character that it isn't really fair to Rachel Miner to try and be it. I think the same about YED, and even Alastair. I didn't have such a problem with Lilith or Ruby but then Lilith was switching between a little girl and an adult which made a difference and Ruby was recycling and how can you not approve of that. But really there was no need to keep Meg - any she demon could have gone against the tide. I suppose she is thinking hell could use a queen rather than a king, because she doesn't seem to be a follower anymore.

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    SohiHien

    [74]May 6, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:

    RichardCarlso wrote:


    "SInce Dean is still being rude and like an upset preteen about what happened between them. If Sam can forgive and understand Cas why can't Dean get off his high horse and treat Cas with some respect or at least understanding if not full forgiveness."


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Dean has always pretty much treated Castiel like crap. He has no use for Castiel except when he wants him to do a favor for him. Deans attitude toward Castiel is,,,"hey, buddy, when I snap my fingers you drop everything and get down here, understand?" Dean can be a real dick at times, and he showed it again when he threw the game board off the table.


    You gotta understand that Dean is really sensitive about people he considers friends doing things he doesn't agree with. He was that way with the Sam thing (he was right), he is that way with Bobby and his ghost thing (time will tell) and he's that way with Cas (and Cas did create the whole Levithan sitution).


    It's easier for Sam to forgive because he's been there but Dean doesn't take these things too well. As for how he treats Cas I can't disagree with thatcompletely, it's a touch of what we saw from future Dean in "The End". He's driven and when things are really bad he only has time for what's going to help and the rest is just a waste of time (he's done it with Bobby before too but Bobby called him out on it). Hopefully, there will come a time where things can calm down enough and he can cool off enough for things to addressed but right now he's still angry and in full crisis mode.



    Dean treated Castiel like crap starting in season 5 and especially in season 6 so long before he did any of that Leviathan stuff. One of my favorite scenes from season 6 was when Cas showed up with that female angel that was part of his group and she told off Dean about how horrible he treated Cas. It was like she was the audience and saying what a lot of fans wanted to say to Dean. It was sad to see how Dean made Cas fall and do all these things for him and then treated him like a slave. They seemed like good friends and then it became strained in season 6 and fell apart at the end of that season and Dean refuses to even try to meet Cas halfway to maybe fix things.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [75]May 6, 2012
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    Beecharm3r2 wrote:
    I don't think Castiel's 'asexual' as he was checking out the prostitute in Season 5 but I think he just hasn't acted on his feelings. (Except by meeting & marrying his 'wife'). And I'd absolutely HATE it if Castiel hooked up with Meg. Awkward, weird, and so so wrong. I still don't know why she's alive at this point, after the Sam possession and then Jo's death...I couldn't understand why Sam & Dean weren't furious when she and Cas made with the smoochies in the first place. And I'll never understand why the writers don't just take time to introduce and develop a woman to be a love interest. Other shows do it. Brief little bits of her personality here and there, and then finally they start dating. I hope that if there is a romance on the show, that the woman ISN'T Meg and that they approach it like writing a novel. You can't just go BAM! And the couple's in love. 'Cause you do that and we hate it. Also, I forgot to clarify that when I said Hester & the other angel were Archangels, it's because it was the description listed in my PVR for the show's summary. I know they can be wrong but I just assumed it was the standard weekly press release for an episode summary that was used on all stations. It basically said "Sam and Dean discover a new prophet and try to keep him away from two Archangels". I read and article online this morning and the author pointed out that bringing in Kevin's character was a great idea because it was a rare reminder that there is still normality in the world and that a lot of people don't usually see the Supernatural side of it. It's just another reason to like the character and I do think it's something that was missing. I think that's why some people mention it could be a good idea to introduce new characters. New characters bring new perspectives and I think that's needed now that we're going to go into Season 8.
    Well, they don't do thatbecause(in the past) anytime they spent too much time on anyone other than Sam and Dean people complained. They also only have many minutes in an episode (and a lot of it feel eaten up with ads these days) so every minute they spend focusing on some new chick who's just there to be a loveinterestis time not spent moving the main story forward or doing some action stuff. I wouldn't mind it but a lot of very vocal people have had issues with it in the past.

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    libra113

    [76]May 6, 2012
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    taxcat11 wrote:


    I wasn't thrilled with Daphne (Castiel's wife) originally but now I hope she manages to track down Cas because he needs to be in the hands of someone who can care for him. Whatever Meg thinks she can use him for I don't know but it won't be in Cas' best interests. Dean & Sam are too busy to try and "fix" him even if they can. Really Cas was better off being a "healer" then he is now, at least he was being useful & doing good. Also I wonder if maybe Daphne didn't have a "surprise" for her husband - I mean I can't see why she was introduced unless she does. We have seen a cambion, so we should see the other side of the coin and meet a nephilim.


    Yeah but what good would she be if demons, angels or something else came after Cas. Word was bound to get out sooner or later the more people he healed and more word of mouth spread news of him. Eventually, something supernatural would come for him and unless she knows what to do and how to do it she would be killed in seconds and he would be abducted. Now that he knows enough to know the risk he can't exactly willingly endanger her like that. Meg is evil and self serving but she knows how to take care of herself and it's in her bestinterestto protect him (for now).

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [77]May 6, 2012
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    taxcat11 wrote:


    Personally I think keeping Meg as a character was a mistake. Nicki Aycox so owns that character that it isn't really fair to Rachel Miner to try and be it. I think the same about YED, and even Alastair. I didn't have such a problem with Lilith or Ruby but then Lilith was switching between a little girl and an adult which made a difference and Ruby was recycling and how can you not approve of that. But really there was no need to keep Meg - any she demon could have gone against the tide. I suppose she is thinking hell could use a queen rather than a king, because she doesn't seem to be a follower anymore.


    It's really better that it be a demon with a history that we know than just some random demon we know nothing about and have no history with. Oh and to be fair yeah Nicki may have originated the role but she was only in it for few episodes and it was years ago. At this point the role has been played by a couple of people and is really much more of anindependentcharacter than associated with any one actor anymore.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [78]May 6, 2012
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    SohiHien wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:


    "SInce Dean is still being rude and like an upset preteen about what happened between them. If Sam can forgive and understand Cas why can't Dean get off his high horse and treat Cas with some respect or at least understanding if not full forgiveness."


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Dean has always pretty much treated Castiel like crap. He has no use for Castiel except when he wants him to do a favor for him. Deans attitude toward Castiel is,,,"hey, buddy, when I snap my fingers you drop everything and get down here, understand?" Dean can be a real dick at times, and he showed it again when he threw the game board off the table.


    You gotta understand that Dean is really sensitive about people he considers friends doing things he doesn't agree with. He was that way with the Sam thing (he was right), he is that way with Bobby and his ghost thing (time will tell) and he's that way with Cas (and Cas did create the whole Levithan sitution).


    It's easier for Sam to forgive because he's been there but Dean doesn't take these things too well. As for how he treats Cas I can't disagree with thatcompletely, it's a touch of what we saw from future Dean in "The End". He's driven and when things are really bad he only has time for what's going to help and the rest is just a waste of time (he's done it with Bobby before too but Bobby called him out on it). Hopefully, there will come a time where things can calm down enough and he can cool off enough for things to addressed but right now he's still angry and in full crisis mode.


    Dean treated Castiel like crap starting in season 5 and especially in season 6 so long before he did any of that Leviathan stuff. One of my favorite scenes from season 6 was when Cas showed up with that female angel that was part of his group and she told off Dean about how horrible he treated Cas. It was like she was the audience and saying what a lot of fans wanted to say to Dean. It was sad to see how Dean made Cas fall and do all these things for him and then treated him like a slave. They seemed like good friends and then it became strained in season 6 and fell apart at the end of that season and Dean refuses to even try to meet Cas halfway to maybe fix things.
    Well, as the rest of my post said Dean is like that when something is going on. He's treated Sam the same way, Bobby too. He's pretty much treated everyone that way when in crisis mode at one time or another. Differenceis Bobby called him on it and Cas is either too loyal or whatever to call him out on it personally.

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    taxcat11

    [79]May 6, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:

    taxcat11 wrote:


    I wasn't thrilled with Daphne (Castiel's wife) originally but now I hope she manages to track down Cas because he needs to be in the hands of someone who can care for him. Whatever Meg thinks she can use him for I don't know but it won't be in Cas' best interests. Dean & Sam are too busy to try and "fix" him even if they can. Really Cas was better off being a "healer" then he is now, at least he was being useful & doing good. Also I wonder if maybe Daphne didn't have a "surprise" for her husband - I mean I can't see why she was introduced unless she does. We have seen a cambion, so we should see the other side of the coin and meet a nephilim.


    Yeah but what good would she be if demons, angels or something else came after Cas. Word was bound to get out sooner or later the more people he healed and more word of mouth spread news of him. Eventually, something supernatural would come for him and unless she knows what to do and how to do it she would be killed in seconds and he would be abducted. Now that he knows enough to know the risk he can't exactly willingly endanger her like that. Meg is evil and self serving but she knows how to take care of herself and it's in her bestinterestto protect him (for now).


    Nothing supernatural ever came for Roy LeGrange and his wife had enslaved a reaper. There is no reason for anyone other than an enemy of Castiel to seek him out and Castiel is not actually helpless. He is still capable of destroying demons and teleporting himself & others elsewhere when there is trouble. Cas' problem is a mental breakdown, he does want to fight anymore than doesn't mean he can't or won't if necessary to survive.
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    taxcat11

    [80]May 6, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:

    taxcat11 wrote:


    Personally I think keeping Meg as a character was a mistake. Nicki Aycox so owns that character that it isn't really fair to Rachel Miner to try and be it. I think the same about YED, and even Alastair. I didn't have such a problem with Lilith or Ruby but then Lilith was switching between a little girl and an adult which made a difference and Ruby was recycling and how can you not approve of that. But really there was no need to keep Meg - any she demon could have gone against the tide. I suppose she is thinking hell could use a queen rather than a king, because she doesn't seem to be a follower anymore.


    It's really better that it be a demon with a history that we know than just some random demon we know nothing about and have no history with. Oh and to be fair yeah Nicki may have originated the role but she was only in it for few episodes and it was years ago. At this point the role has been played by a couple of people and is really much more of anindependentcharacter than associated with any one actor anymore.


    They had plenty of time to introduce a new demon - there was no history for Ruby when she appeared on the scene, same for Alastair. As to the others who have played Meg - they weren't convincing either and so memorable I couldn't tell who they were or what episodes they appeared in. No doubt Meg was written the same as way but as the acting was different so it didn't feel like the same character.
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