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Official Discussion Thread: Reading is Fundamental (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of RichardCarlso

    RichardCarlso

    [81]May 7, 2012
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    Bobby did let Dean have it once because of Dean's "I snap my fingers, you jump," attitude. And Castiel stood up to Dean once. When Dean was going to agree to be Michael's vessel, Cas exploded and beat the snot out of Dean. Enjoyed that scene immensely. Dean is a great character, but every once a a while he needs an attitude adjustment.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [82]May 7, 2012
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    taxcat11 wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    taxcat11 wrote:


    I wasn't thrilled with Daphne (Castiel's wife) originally but now I hope she manages to track down Cas because he needs to be in the hands of someone who can care for him. Whatever Meg thinks she can use him for I don't know but it won't be in Cas' best interests. Dean & Sam are too busy to try and "fix" him even if they can. Really Cas was better off being a "healer" then he is now, at least he was being useful & doing good. Also I wonder if maybe Daphne didn't have a "surprise" for her husband - I mean I can't see why she was introduced unless she does. We have seen a cambion, so we should see the other side of the coin and meet a nephilim.


    Yeah but what good would she be if demons, angels or something else came after Cas. Word was bound to get out sooner or later the more people he healed and more word of mouth spread news of him. Eventually, something supernatural would come for him and unless she knows what to do and how to do it she would be killed in seconds and he would be abducted. Now that he knows enough to know the risk he can't exactly willingly endanger her like that. Meg is evil and self serving but she knows how to take care of herself and it's in her bestinterestto protect him (for now).


    Nothing supernatural ever came for Roy LeGrange and his wife had enslaved a reaper. There is no reason for anyone other than an enemy of Castiel to seek him out and Castiel is not actually helpless. He is still capable of destroying demons and teleporting himself & others elsewhere when there is trouble. Cas' problem is a mental breakdown, he does want to fight anymore than doesn't mean he can't or won't if necessary to survive.
    Yeah but, as far as we know, Roy wasn't an ex-angel and there weren't angels, demons, etc... with a reason to go after him. Also, Cas couldn't do all other stuff until he got his memory back (or started to) and that happened only after Dean showed up.


    There's a chance that left to his own devices his healings would have raised a red flag with someone and unless they're showing up triggered enough of Cas' memories for him to remember he could do that stuff his wife would have been lunch meat and he would have been kidnapped.


    It's one of those situations "Supernatural" likes to deal in where there are not good options but less bad ones.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [83]May 7, 2012
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    taxcat11 wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    taxcat11 wrote:


    Personally I think keeping Meg as a character was a mistake. Nicki Aycox so owns that character that it isn't really fair to Rachel Miner to try and be it. I think the same about YED, and even Alastair. I didn't have such a problem with Lilith or Ruby but then Lilith was switching between a little girl and an adult which made a difference and Ruby was recycling and how can you not approve of that. But really there was no need to keep Meg - any she demon could have gone against the tide. I suppose she is thinking hell could use a queen rather than a king, because she doesn't seem to be a follower anymore.


    It's really better that it be a demon with a history that we know than just some random demon we know nothing about and have no history with. Oh and to be fair yeah Nicki may have originated the role but she was only in it for few episodes and it was years ago. At this point the role has been played by a couple of people and is really much more of anindependentcharacter than associated with any one actor anymore.


    They had plenty of time to introduce a new demon - there was no history for Ruby when she appeared on the scene, same for Alastair. As to the others who have played Meg - they weren't convincing either and so memorable I couldn't tell who they were or what episodes they appeared in. No doubt Meg was written the same as way but as the acting was different so it didn't feel like the same character.
    But they weren't in the samepositionMeg is in now. If some random demon started trying to help them to cover their own ass and doing what she's doing it just wouldn't work. It would be like 'who is this bozo and what's the deal?' Meg we know.


    As for the actors too bad Meg's body is gone, there's no way to bring her back (even if she was inclined to return for extendedperiodof time) so there's no going back. I actually like the current Meg. She's enough like the original to sell that it's the same entity butdifferentenough so the current actress doesn't feel trapped by the past portrayals of the character which is really the best way to do it.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [84]May 7, 2012
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    RichardCarlso wrote:


    Bobby did let Dean have it once because of Dean's "I snap my fingers, you jump," attitude. And Castiel stood up to Dean once. When Dean was going to agree to be Michael's vessel, Cas exploded and beat the snot out of Dean. Enjoyed that scene immensely. Dean is a great character, but every once a a while he needs an attitude adjustment.


    Yeah, that what I was saying. Still in Cas' case it was moredisappointmentthat Dean was giving up and at everything he put on the line. It would be nice if he told him off about his attitude in general and maybe that will come but I want to see Cas reach some level of sanity firstbecauseright now just isn't the right time.

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  • Avatar of smegmag

    smegmag

    [85]May 8, 2012
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    taxcat11 wrote:
    libra113 wrote:

    taxcat11 wrote:


    Personally I think keeping Meg as a character was a mistake. Nicki Aycox so owns that character that it isn't really fair to Rachel Miner to try and be it. I think the same about YED, and even Alastair. I didn't have such a problem with Lilith or Ruby but then Lilith was switching between a little girl and an adult which made a difference and Ruby was recycling and how can you not approve of that. But really there was no need to keep Meg - any she demon could have gone against the tide. I suppose she is thinking hell could use a queen rather than a king, because she doesn't seem to be a follower anymore.


    It's really better that it be a demon with a history that we know than just some random demon we know nothing about and have no history with. Oh and to be fair yeah Nicki may have originated the role but she was only in it for few episodes and it was years ago. At this point the role has been played by a couple of people and is really much more of anindependentcharacter than associated with any one actor anymore.


    They had plenty of time to introduce a new demon - there was no history for Ruby when she appeared on the scene, same for Alastair. As to the others who have played Meg - they weren't convincing either and so memorable I couldn't tell who they were or what episodes they appeared in. No doubt Meg was written the same as way but as the acting was different so it didn't feel like the same character.


    I really liked Nicki Aycox's Meg and I never warmed to Rachel Miner's portrayal. Like it or not Aycox set the chararacter and anyone who followed needed to adapt to that to some extent. People who've had massive facial reconstruction still tilt their heads in the same way, still have the same gait, posture and other subtle mannerisms, I actually thought JP did a good job of that in BUABS--he was one scary bit$h. That's probably why I didn't care for Ruby2(and no not for 1 instant did I not think she was evil--a demon is a demon is a demon--they all need to end badly) I think I liked lady Raph because she brought (with little screentime or dialogue) just enough of old Raph through. Totally hoping, they've included Meg on the team so they can have a token fatality. They should even dress her in a red friggin' shirt!
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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [86]May 9, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I am worried about Cas and Meg's influence over him.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I would be more worried about Lucifer's influence over him. I never accepted that Lucifer was just a hallucination of Sam's. What totally convinced me was the ep where Sam and Lucifer are sitting at a table. Sam gets angry and tells the Lucifer/hallucination to shut up, then gets up from the table and walks away. Once Sam is out of earshot, Luci says to himself,,,"he said shut up to me." Hallucinations do not talk to themselves because they don't exist. And when Castiel took Sam's memories into himself, Castiel was terrified when Luci said,,,"hello, brother." Somehow I think a part of Lucifer has managed leave the Cage, or influence things outside of it. And I don't think the return of Meg is just an accident. She's a Lucifer loyalist, and may try to release all of Lucifer from the Cage, again. Maybe Crowley knows she is on to something, and thats why he is so desperate to kill her. The last thing Crowley would want is Lucifer free again, as he would be number one on Luci's hit list.


    No. That's a step backward and I seriously doubt that they would want to take a step backward and live in the show's past. For all the talk about losing it's edge and jumping the shark THAT would be the true point the show fell apart. Any show that tries to go backward and rehash the past really has lived past it's sell by date.


    There's nothing new that Lucifer can bring to the table. He gets out and it's back to season five all over again and that story is over and done with.




    I agree that it would be a step backwards if they intended to try and revive the apocalypse story line by bringing Lucifer back. However, you're making the assumption that his return would herald the return of the same storyline. Remember, just before Lucifer and Michael were about to fight, it was Lucifer who made one last plea/suggestion that they just abandon the chess board. Lucifer, like most other angels, only went along with the apocalypse because, aside from the fact that he had daddy issues and hated humanity, he felt he had no choice. To him, like 97 percent of the other angels, free will was an illusion. He stated as much in Episode 10 of season 5 when he told Sam "I have to do this Sam, I have to!". Given the fact that Lucifer, like Cas now, was always the most rebellious, I don't find it that hard to see him accepting that free will does exist and, as such, not feeling the need to incinerate the earth in an all out death match with his brother. To be honest, I'm not sure how he would be if he truly was free, but maybe that's the point- maybe save for tormenting Sam, he doesn't know what to do with himself.


    Furthermore, do you remember Cas's comment to Crowley in the season opener? "We have to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage". Notice the omittance of Lucifer's name as one who had to be kept locked away? It adds to the theory that he has been out this whole time, which, in my opinion, would be a pretty nice twist on the part of the writers since everyone seems to think he's just a hallucination.

    Edited on 05/09/2012 9:44am
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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [87]May 9, 2012
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    Anyways, where to start...so many things to talk about.


    I personally loved this episode- great dialogue and great story evolution, which is nothing less than what I would expect from Ben Edlund. Up until now this season had been very slow developing but this seems to have moved it up notch (as would be expected 3 episodes before the season finale). Cas's "I don't like conflict" and "pull my finger" comments, and his attempts to still try and be relevant to his former colleagues were hilarious and a pleasure to watch. Likewise, the angels reactions to his return were quite interesting. Hester being quite righteous and angry at Castiel's disappearance and his introduction of free will, and the other angel's comment about there being so few of them left, gives us a good indication of how things have been up in heaven since we last saw it.


    Furthermore, while everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, I have to disagree that Cas doesn't seem like Cas. Save for the fact that he swallowed Sam's insanity, and that it is now understandably manifesting itself in a different form, he is still very much Cas- awkward, caring, comical and a lynchpin for the brothers. He's been around for just about 4 seasons now and, as such, I would argue that some character developments, even if they are minor or temporary, are pretty much expected.


    When it comes to Meg, while I agree that it is highly weird seeing her help Cas, and even weirder that Cas would accept such help, when one thinks about it, it all does sort of make sense. First off, as many people have noted, Meg is self serving so if having an angel in her pocket serves her, of course she's going to help Cas (come to think of it, since Meg is going against Crowley, I can't help but wonder if Meg and Dick might be working together). More importantly, given Cas's history of rebellion, it's not that crazy that he would form a relationship with Meg. In fact, if any angel would, it would be him. It's just in his nature to do things other angels wouldn't.


    Next- Kevin was awesome. SPN has always had a knack for being able to find great guest actors and this episode was no exception. Great comic relief (aside from Cas) and the kid played his character perfectly.


    As far as the angel's being killed by Leviathan thing goes, while I do think Tyrathius makes some great points about it being weird, I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with Libra on this one. If rules had already been established about the powers of the Leviathan (E.G- Angels being able to beat them) what happened would be dues ex machina. However, because so little was known about them before, I don't have a problem with them being able to kill angels.


    To me, it's a lot like the movie Signs. A lot of people complained that it was stupid to create a species that would invade a planet that was made up with over 3/4s of something they were allergic to. However, if they had never encountered water before, how would they have known they were allergic to it? Same thing goes for the angels and Leviathans here. If angels had never encountered Leviathan before, how would they know how to fight them or recognize them? Furthermore, if anyone has ever been in fight, or a life or death situation, they probably know there are usually three responses one has- fight, flight, or freeze. Yes, after his first attack failed the angel could have just flung a table or a microwave at Edger's head, but he was understandably scared and realized he was probably about to die. Hence, with only a second or two to react, it's not all that surprising that the he froze. In a fair fight I think it would be much more even matched, but this was very much a "by surprise" attack orchestrated by a top level leviathan against two lower level angels.


    Lastly, I'm glad we finally got to see all three of the shows major supernatural beings in one episode- angels (Heaven), leviathans (Purgatory) and demons (Hell). It was about time and hopefully we'll get to see a bit of a three way stand off between all them at some point in the next few episode. Edger's comment about "paper, rock, scissors- leviathan beats angel", and Crowley's ability to teleport away from Dick in a previous episode makes me wonder if demons might have more of an edge against the leviathan than even Crowley himself seems to know (given that neither angels or demons seem to know much about them).


    Anyways, definitely a great episode and looking forward to the last two.

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  • Avatar of vampman87

    vampman87

    [88]May 9, 2012
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    smegmag wrote:
    vampman87 wrote:
    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    libra113 wrote:


    yutg25 wrote:


    I think those angels were just incapable stupid I mean where are the quality angels. There were two of them unless they were completely out of the loop wouldn't one of them had the presence of mind to get the Prophet and his mom out. I knew that the FBI guy was Leviathan I just knew Dick wouldn't take it lying down. Why do I think there was more to that word of God than we translated. WHy would Dick want that rock if all it had was a way to kill them and why do they need to send the Prophet to the desert to learn something.


    From a writers pov they needed to make the Leviathans immune to Angels so that Cas couldn't just go terminator on Dick's ass. They could have explained it in other ways though like when we were riding on Cas we learned a lot of Angel intel and made ourselves immune to Angel ass kicking moves or just say Eve learned her protection from us.


    I am worried about Cas and Meg's influence over him.


    Blame Sam and Dean they made the deal with them not to take him to the desert like they wanted to. Perhaps if they had let the angels have their way they wouldn't be dead now.


    You really have to ask WHY Dick wouldn't want the way to kill him in the hands of his enemies? Really?


    Cas and Meg went theirseparateways I doubt she has influence over him anymore. He may be crazy, he may be weird but he's not an idiot.



    the thing I don't get is that yes, Dick would want to keep it (how to kill them) out of the hands of his enemies - but it was already out of their hands to begin with. nobody could read it except old angels, god, death (maybe) and the prophet. so maybe there is more to it than just how to kill them, maybe it has instructions on how to breed or something, I dunno.


    as for everyone who are complaining that Leviathans didn't show their power off before, it's because they wanted to stay under the radar. gee, it was only mentioned like a gazillion times in the earlier episodes. it's kind of similar to the alternate universe in Buffy where she had never come to Sunnydale - the vamps had taken over and weren't concerned about hiding themselves because they were in control. but until that point, they had to stay hidden.


    as for Edgar, is it just me or does he seem a bit disillusioned with 'Dick'? there is a point where he says something derogatory about Dick, and it gave me the impression he didn't like him. we will find out next week if that's the case I'm betting.



    I think Edgar disagrees with Dick's policies of mass-production of the human slaughterhouses. Dick's policy has always been not to draw attention to their existence, and so huge slaughterhouses and rounding out humans like cattle might go against his own policy. Plus, Dick seems to have the biggest ego out of ANY of the Big Bads, which might finally start rubbing Edgar the wrong way.

    Personally I love the thought of Edgar killing Dick in the end and becoming the main villain of season 8. He's quiet, creepy, and so far the physically strongest of the Leviathans. Dick may be more powerful (given the fact that he actually seems to enjoy getting Boraxed in the face) but as a Big Bad he hasn't done anything except kill Bobby (with a gun). Edgar burned down Bobby's house, nearly beat to death Sam and Dean, survived a car falling on him, took out a Turduken berserker with one punch, and killed two angels. He deserves to lead the Leviathans because he's actually SCARY.


    Not sure but I don't think Leviathan leadership is based on meritocracy. The leader is the leader and according to Kevin's interpretation--the only way to kill the levia is to kill the leader and the only way he can be killed is with the bone of a righteous mortal washed in the 3 bloods. So killing Dick kills them all.


    Oh God, I hope that doesn't happen, where killing Dick kills ALL the Leviathans. Dick is the least threatening Big Bad in the series, but there are some Leviathans who are genuinely scary (Namely Edgar) so I hope once Dick dies there would be a power struggle like when Lucifer and Michael got thrown in the cage or a new, scarier Leviathan takes Dick's place, like Lilith did when Yellow Eyes died. The Leviathans may have been all over the place this season in terms of creepiness, but they have lots of potential as villains, and wiping them out at the season finale would be just as big an insult as killing Eve, who was FULL of potential given her age and hw she could create new monsters, but died after THREE FRIGGIN EPISODES!
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [89]May 9, 2012
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    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I am worried about Cas and Meg's influence over him.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I would be more worried about Lucifer's influence over him. I never accepted that Lucifer was just a hallucination of Sam's. What totally convinced me was the ep where Sam and Lucifer are sitting at a table. Sam gets angry and tells the Lucifer/hallucination to shut up, then gets up from the table and walks away. Once Sam is out of earshot, Luci says to himself,,,"he said shut up to me." Hallucinations do not talk to themselves because they don't exist. And when Castiel took Sam's memories into himself, Castiel was terrified when Luci said,,,"hello, brother." Somehow I think a part of Lucifer has managed leave the Cage, or influence things outside of it. And I don't think the return of Meg is just an accident. She's a Lucifer loyalist, and may try to release all of Lucifer from the Cage, again. Maybe Crowley knows she is on to something, and thats why he is so desperate to kill her. The last thing Crowley would want is Lucifer free again, as he would be number one on Luci's hit list.


    No. That's a step backward and I seriously doubt that they would want to take a step backward and live in the show's past. For all the talk about losing it's edge and jumping the shark THAT would be the true point the show fell apart. Any show that tries to go backward and rehash the past really has lived past it's sell by date.


    There's nothing new that Lucifer can bring to the table. He gets out and it's back to season five all over again and that story is over and done with.




    I agree that it would be a step backwards if they intended to try and revive the apocalypse story line by bringing Lucifer back. However, you're making the assumption that his return would herald the return of the same storyline. Remember, just before Lucifer and Michael were about to fight, it was Lucifer who made one last plea/suggestion that they just abandon the chess board. Lucifer, like most other angels, only went along with the apocalypse because, aside from the fact that he had daddy issues and hated humanity, he felt he had no choice. To him, like 97 percent of the other angels, free will was an illusion. He stated as much in Episode 10 of season 5 when he told Sam "I have to do this Sam, I have to!". Given the fact that Lucifer, like Cas now, was always the most rebellious, I don't find it that hard to see him accepting that free will does exist and, as such, not feeling the need to incinerate the earth in an all out death match with his brother. To be honest, I'm not sure how he would be if he truly was free, but maybe that's the point- maybe save for tormenting Sam, he doesn't know what to do with himself.


    Furthermore, do you remember Cas's comment to Crowley in the season opener? "We have to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage". Notice the omittance of Lucifer's name as one who had to be kept locked away? It adds to the theory that he has been out this whole time, which, in my opinion, would be a pretty nice twist on the part of the writers since everyone seems to think he's just a hallucination.


    Yeah but at the end of the day he still kept pushingforwardwith his plan and I don't really see what else they COULD do with him. It was have to be on the same level as him destroying the world as planned but not that. Can't just bring him back and have him hanging around mocking Sam or something that would be stupid. He would need a purpose, something Sam and Dean would have to stop.


    As for not mentioning Lucifer that's becasue Cas' attention was on gaining and keeping Heaven out of the hands of Raph. Micheal was the greatest threat to Cas' goals because he would be a direct threat to Cas' postions not to mention Raph would then try and start the whole thing all over again and Cas worked so hard and gave up so much to keep it from happening the last thing he would want is to risk it starting over again. That was the whole point of joining up with Crowley and trying to find Purgatory and everything he did (up until he fell under the influence of the souls and all that).


    In short, no more Lucifer, no more Micheal, turn the page and go on to the next threat to human race.

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  • Avatar of lachlan_j_g

    lachlan_j_g

    [90]May 10, 2012
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    vampman87 wrote:
    killing Eve, who was FULL of potential given her age and hw she could create new monsters, but died after THREE FRIGGIN EPISODES!


    at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I strongly suggest you look up the word 'MISDIRECT' in the dictionary.

    Edited on 05/10/2012 1:31am
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  • Avatar of lachlan_j_g

    lachlan_j_g

    [91]May 10, 2012
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    just out of curiosity, how did the Leviathans know that Kevin was the prophet? I mean, there are lots of missing persons in the USA, why would they focus on him? unless Dick knew that someone who could read it would awaken when it was uncovered?

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  • Avatar of smegmag

    smegmag

    [92]May 10, 2012
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    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    just out of curiosity, how did the Leviathans know that Kevin was the prophet? I mean, there are lots of missing persons in the USA, why would they focus on him? unless Dick knew that someone who could read it would awaken when it was uncovered?

    Maybe he got the info from Cas who seemed to know what the tablet was even though he couldn't read it because otherwise why would they be digging for it in the first place since presumably they were locked away in purgatory when it was created? Murky.

    And were the angels killed? Clearly they got their asses handed to them, but were they killed? Is the black gooey death really death, it didnt look like traditional angel deaths--big light show with or without the burnt wings. It did look like the black gooey death Cas supposedly had, but that isn't all that clear--was Cas resurrected by God again, or did he somehow manage to pull himself together and heal his admittedly grievous wounds. More murkey.

    And if as we mostly agree Alpha Vamp is the third blood why would he (as the end of ep preview suggests) double cross the boys (allowing he hates humans, hates them in particular and they killed his mom) , He's smart and it should be obvious to him that the levias will kill him as soon as he turns them over--hell they should kill him the moment they set eyes on him. There can be more fallen angels, hell changes rulers on the regular, but he's the last Alpha and the weakest link. Destroy him destroy the threat. Dumb.
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  • Avatar of lachlan_j_g

    lachlan_j_g

    [93]May 10, 2012
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    smegmag wrote:
    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    just out of curiosity, how did the Leviathans know that Kevin was the prophet? I mean, there are lots of missing persons in the USA, why would they focus on him? unless Dick knew that someone who could read it would awaken when it was uncovered?


    Maybe he got the info from Cas who seemed to know what the tablet was even though he couldn't read it because otherwise why would they be digging for it in the first place since presumably they were locked away in purgatory when it was created? Murky. And were the angels killed? Clearly they got their asses handed to them, but were they killed? Is the black gooey death really death, it didnt look like traditional angel deaths--big light show with or without the burnt wings. It did look like the black gooey death Cas supposedly had, but that isn't all that clear--was Cas resurrected by God again, or did he somehow manage to pull himself together and heal his admittedly grievous wounds. More murkey. And if as we mostly agree Alpha Vamp is the third blood why would he (as the end of ep preview suggests) double cross the boys (allowing he hates humans, hates them in particular and they killed his mom) , He's smart and it should be obvious to him that the levias will kill him as soon as he turns them over--hell they should kill him the moment they set eyes on him. There can be more fallen angels, hell changes rulers on the regular, but he's the last Alpha and the weakest link. Destroy him destroy the threat. Dumb.


    is he the last Alpha? we only saw one get killed (shapeshifter)

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [94]May 10, 2012
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    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    vampman87 wrote:
    killing Eve, who was FULL of potential given her age and hw she could create new monsters, but died after THREE FRIGGIN EPISODES!


    at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I strongly suggest you look up the word 'MISDIRECT' in the dictionary.


    No kidding. I thought everyone understood by now that Eve was never the point, it was a distraction to keep us from realizing Cas/Crowley were the real threats that season.

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    Tyrathius

    [95]May 10, 2012
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    smegmag wrote:
    taxcat11 wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    taxcat11 wrote:


    Personally I think keeping Meg as a character was a mistake. Nicki Aycox so owns that character that it isn't really fair to Rachel Miner to try and be it. I think the same about YED, and even Alastair. I didn't have such a problem with Lilith or Ruby but then Lilith was switching between a little girl and an adult which made a difference and Ruby was recycling and how can you not approve of that. But really there was no need to keep Meg - any she demon could have gone against the tide. I suppose she is thinking hell could use a queen rather than a king, because she doesn't seem to be a follower anymore.


    It's really better that it be a demon with a history that we know than just some random demon we know nothing about and have no history with. Oh and to be fair yeah Nicki may have originated the role but she was only in it for few episodes and it was years ago. At this point the role has been played by a couple of people and is really much more of anindependentcharacter than associated with any one actor anymore.


    They had plenty of time to introduce a new demon - there was no history for Ruby when she appeared on the scene, same for Alastair. As to the others who have played Meg - they weren't convincing either and so memorable I couldn't tell who they were or what episodes they appeared in. No doubt Meg was written the same as way but as the acting was different so it didn't feel like the same character.
    I really liked Nicki Aycox's Meg and I never warmed to Rachel Miner's portrayal. Like it or not Aycox set the chararacter and anyone who followed needed to adapt to that to some extent. People who've had massive facial reconstruction still tilt their heads in the same way, still have the same gait, posture and other subtle mannerisms, I actually thought JP did a good job of that in BUABS--he was one scary bit$h. That's probably why I didn't care for Ruby2(and no not for 1 instant did I not think she was evil--a demon is a demon is a demon--they all need to end badly) I think I liked lady Raph because she brought (with little screentime or dialogue) just enough of old Raph through. Totally hoping, they've included Meg on the team so they can have a token fatality. They should even dress her in a red friggin' shirt!


    Miner was a decent Meg in season 5. I think the problems with her now are more to do with bad writing than acting ability, they've kept Meg around for so long she's outlasted the plots she was relevant to. She has nothing to do with the leviathans or Ghost!Bobby. Their attempts at shoehorning her into Cas' story, romantically or otherwise, have come off as awkward and contrived. She's like Lisa and Ben were in season 6, continually reappearing while contributing nothing.

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  • Avatar of Tyrathius

    Tyrathius

    [96]May 10, 2012
    • member since: 09/27/11
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 90

    libra113 wrote:


    Tyrathius wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Tyrathius wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Tyrathius wrote:


    I'm not sure what to think of that bit at the end, with the leviathan killing the angels. On the one hand, up until now they haven't done anything to make them seem that dangerous (at least compared to the other monsters on the show) and having them knock off a few angel mooks does make them seem more capable. On the other hand, it seems really contrived -that whole chest stabbing thing was never seen or mentioned as an ability of the leviathans or a weakness of the angels, and up until now, Zachariah was the only angel to be killed (onscreen) by something other than an angel. And that was with an angel-killing weapon while he was distracted. Angels move and react too fast to be vulnerable to humans and demons, and since leviathans possess no teleportation or super speed, I don't see why they'd be any different. The first one, perhaps he could have caught off guard, but the second had ample time to realize what was going on and either flee or strike back. Rather than making leviathans seem strong, it made the angels seem weak. Angels have so many more powers than leviathans (ex. facemelting, teleportation, reality warping, time traveling, resurrection) it's like Superman vs. Aquaman, only Aquaman wins just because.


    Meg's time on this show should have ended in the second or fifth season, they're trying to make her into an anti-hero and she just doesn't work as one. This is a character who kidnapped John, possessed Sam, and mortally wounded Jo (or at least told a hellhound to). She's done too much as a villain and too little to redeem herself to work as a good guy. It makes you wonder why Dean did not simply stab her with the demon-killing knife while she was in the Devil's Trap, or when she was tied to a torture rack in Caged Heat. Especially after Ruby and Crowley, and their respective backstabbings. I also can't understand why Castiel would trust her more than Sam and Dean, when he claims to remember everything they've done together, and Meg openly admits to only wanting him around as a potential weapon against Crowley. Even when she was "taking care" of him, he was unconscious for most of that time and wasn't able to bond with her.


    Those were my two biggest things with the episode. Otherwise, I thought it was alright but not great. I wasn't particularly impressed by the guest actors. The story is starting to move for the first time since the season midpoint (everything that was "revealed" last week we'd known since the drugged hamburgers) but I just can't seem to immerse myself in it like I did with earlier seasons.


    I really don't get you people and yourobsessionwith flashy shows of power. It's notnecessarilyfor the new monster on the block to come in and just start showing off all their powers and stuff right off the bat. The thing about theLeviathans(and probably why they were picked ) is that little to nothing is actually laid out about them other than they're very powerful and their name. They're a clean slate and this obsession with having to know all their powers and stuff right off the bat is just silly. They're very powerful and we dont' know the half of it, end of story. Oh and in the Superman VS Aquaman thing IF Aquaman wins it's becasue he's actually way more powerful than some people seem to realize (superhuman strength, reflexes, resistance,etc...) if you read the comics (the well written ones) you would know he's way more than Super Friends cartoon made him out to be (a guy who talks to fish).


    They're not trying to make her into an anti-hero. She is what she's always been, a self serving b itch trying to save her own backside anyway she can. If she's coming off that way it's because she's trying to worn her way into Sam and Dean's (especially Sam since he's more vulnerable to that sort of thing, or was at least) good graces to save her own life. They're keep her aroundbecause, in case you haven't noticed, they've run out of people to work with and even though they don't like her or trust her they at least have someone around. They can't do it all alone and with Bobby a now you see him, now you don't ghost and everyone else just dead they can't afford to be picky, for now.




    And I really don't get why you think everyone has to agree with you.


    I am not necessarily opposed to the idea of leviathans being stronger than angels. What I didn't like is how they just suddenly are, with no reason as to why. Going by what we've previously seen angels do, and what we've previously seen leviathans do, angels are by far the more powerful of the two. Worse, the way Edgar killed the angels, it specifically relied of them not doing anything to stop him. Earlier in the season, a mortal witch was able to incapacitate a leviathan with a simple spell he made on the spot. Last week Bobby was able to (temporarily) hold back Dick Roman himself. -Do you really expect me to believe that a witch and a ghost are stronger than two angels? Even if their usual facemelting touch won't work on a leviathan, an angel should have more than enough mojo to throw around to stop it and, failing that, can still move much faster than the leviathan and should have had time to grab Kevin and his mother and run. If Aquaman wins because of some previously unintroduced ability that has absolutely no setup in the story, do you know what that is? Deus ex machina, that's what.


    Eve was able to nullify Castiel's powers, but this was explicitly stated as an ability of hers, and she's clearly not the same kind of creature as the leviathans to begin with (she creates monsters, as far as we know leviathans don't reproduce, she needed a human host, leviathans are shapeshifters, etc.) Not to mention the angels had literally just used their powers teleporting into the room with the leviathan.


    As far as Meg goes, yes, she's still a self-serving bitch. That's what makes her an anti-hero -She's fighting on the side of good despite her villainous nature. The problem is she's done so much bad it just doesn't work. Ruby and Crowley worked because neither of them had done anything to cross the Winchesters prior to their team-ups. Meg has caused the Winchesters quite a bit of trouble and grief over the years, and neither of them are the sort to just forgive and forget regardless of how dire the situation is. And that her romance with Castiel requires him to be acting vastly out of character for it to work is probably a sign that it's not a good idea.


    There is a majordifferencebetween not being able to do something and just not having done something yet. As I recall when angles first appeared we had no idea what their powers were so when Cas, for example, sent Dean back in time that was a new power we had no idea they could do. Hell, we didn't even know theyexistedor could pull someone out of Hell bring them back to life all healed until Cas saved Dean. How is thatdifferent? How can you expect them show us EVERYTHING aLeviathancan and can't do right at the start? They can't. We learn about them as Sam and Dean do (and occasionally learn some things they don't).


    The witch and the warlock were not mortal (in fact the episode makes it pretty clear they're immortal as they talk about encounters with Columbusamongothers) and we have no idea what nature their witchcraft is. It's pretty old magic to be sure. Also, this sounds more like a case of the nature of the power involved than the level of the power. It's not that Bobby is more powerful than an angel it's that he's a ghost and has a personal grudge (from which to draw power) again Dick himself. It's not that the immortal witch is more power than an angel it's that shewieldsancientmagic that could very well be a special weakness of theLeviathans(given that we don't know them well enough to know for sure). Just because you don't understand how and why don't automatically dismiss it until you know the whole story.


    As for Ruby I would say she was double crossing and betraying Sam in particular all along since her ultimate goal was to trick him into breaking the final seal. I would also point out her lying that she could help him save Dean and all the other BS she should have been killed over long before she was.


    I also wouldn't say that anyone has forgiven or forgotten what Meg has done but they have no one else and even Sam and Dean can't stop the Leviathan all alone. If they had Cas at full strength or anyone else she would be toast but they don't have anyone to turn to.


    Oh and there is no romance between Cas and Meg. That's in your head. Oh and I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. I rather they didn't I like being on the outside.


    The difference is, angels were set up from their first appearance as these beings of great and cosmic power. Castiel's voice alone was enough to shred the gas station Dean took refuge in. A glimpse of his true form burned out Pamela's eyes. His first act on the show is to pull Dean out of Hell with no consequences at all, something that -at the time- was unheard of in the setting. It was believable that the angels were able to do things like time travel because they had been set up as being extremely powerful from the moment they were introduced.


    This is where the Leviathans fall short. We were told they were powerful. We were told they were a threat. But we were never really shown that power. Up until now, the Leviathans were basically just shapeshifters without the usual weaknesses. Dangerous, certainly, but compared to some of the things Sam and Dean have faced in the past, nothing special. Thus, when they were suddenly capable of killing angels in last night's episode (beings whose power in the show is well established) it comes off as being contrived. It wasn't believable that a Leviathan could kill an angel any more than it would be believable a vampire could.


    Perhaps I should have clarified, the witches were mortal in the sense that they were human. They were not monsters or angels or any sort of supernatural creature, just regular humans who strengthened themselves with black magic. If one of them was able to defeat a leviathan, it's hard to believe an angel wouldn't be able to.


    They managed without Meg for the first half of the season, and that was before they had a lead on how to kill the leviathans. Why do they suddenly need her now? They don't, the writers just want to have her around for some reason. And no, it's not just in my head, the show is certainly playing with the idea of a relationship between Meg and Castiel. Whether it will go anywhere or not is another issue, but they kissed in Caged Heat, and Castiel clearly cared about her in last night's episode (even calling her "beautiful" at one point).



    Okay and just what senerio do you imagine them showing their great power? The angels have been absent until now (so just now we see what they can do against angels). We've seen them with demons and clearly demons can't contend with them or they would have done so already.


    As for the witches, again, we don't know what sort of magic they use. You can't just assume that all magic is created equal and there are more things in the world that just black magic and white magic. There areEgyptianMagicsfor example and cosmicmagicsand so forth. Given their age they could be tapping into a very primial and powerful force of magic (even if they are pretty petty with their use of it).


    The only other witches we've seen with immortality were the two in the Halloween episode and they were powerful enough to mask their location from angels so clearly some witches can get pretty powerful when they havecenturiesto gatherknowledgeand hone their skills.


    It's also possible that while very powerLeviathanshave a special weakness to witchcraft or even Earthly magic in general given that there's a humancomponentin the way to kill them. In factjudgingfrom the ad for next week it sounds like the method to kill them requires human/demon/angelingredientsforcing all of the later creations of God to join forces (or at least be of one mind or goal) to make the method to kill them.



    I don't know, at some point in the first twenty episodes of the season? If the leviathans have possessed this insta-kill ability all this time, why haven't they used it before now? Does it only work on angels? If so, why do the leviathans have the ability to kill a creature that didn't exist when last they walked the earth? If not, why haven't they used it before now? Even against humans, it would be a much more effective way of killing something than trying to punch them to death.


    There's a bit of a difference between being able to hide from someone and being able to take them in a fight. I don't think anyone would argue that those witches could have killed Castiel and Uriel. But more to the point, up until now it's never been a question of different types of magic -When two powers fought previously on this show, the winner would be whoever's mojo was stronger. Most angels toasted demons like they were nothing, but particularly powerful demons like Alistair were able to prevail against them. Lucifer zapped a dozen or so mythological Gods who presumably used a different kind of magic than angels/demons in Hammer of the Gods without issue. Yet still we're to believe that angels are helpless against leviathans, who are vulnerable to creatures weaker than angels? And again, this is all just speculation on our part and not a canon explanation. I wouldn't watch this show if I thought it was bad, but I still expect the writers to maintain their own continuity.


    Hopefully they just wanted to end the episode on a shock note and a more reasonable explanation will be given this week or next, but I'm not going to get my hopes up about it.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [97]May 10, 2012
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385

    Tyrathius wrote:


    smegmag wrote:
    taxcat11 wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    taxcat11 wrote:


    Personally I think keeping Meg as a character was a mistake. Nicki Aycox so owns that character that it isn't really fair to Rachel Miner to try and be it. I think the same about YED, and even Alastair. I didn't have such a problem with Lilith or Ruby but then Lilith was switching between a little girl and an adult which made a difference and Ruby was recycling and how can you not approve of that. But really there was no need to keep Meg - any she demon could have gone against the tide. I suppose she is thinking hell could use a queen rather than a king, because she doesn't seem to be a follower anymore.


    It's really better that it be a demon with a history that we know than just some random demon we know nothing about and have no history with. Oh and to be fair yeah Nicki may have originated the role but she was only in it for few episodes and it was years ago. At this point the role has been played by a couple of people and is really much more of anindependentcharacter than associated with any one actor anymore.


    They had plenty of time to introduce a new demon - there was no history for Ruby when she appeared on the scene, same for Alastair. As to the others who have played Meg - they weren't convincing either and so memorable I couldn't tell who they were or what episodes they appeared in. No doubt Meg was written the same as way but as the acting was different so it didn't feel like the same character.
    I really liked Nicki Aycox's Meg and I never warmed to Rachel Miner's portrayal. Like it or not Aycox set the chararacter and anyone who followed needed to adapt to that to some extent. People who've had massive facial reconstruction still tilt their heads in the same way, still have the same gait, posture and other subtle mannerisms, I actually thought JP did a good job of that in BUABS--he was one scary bit$h. That's probably why I didn't care for Ruby2(and no not for 1 instant did I not think she was evil--a demon is a demon is a demon--they all need to end badly) I think I liked lady Raph because she brought (with little screentime or dialogue) just enough of old Raph through. Totally hoping, they've included Meg on the team so they can have a token fatality. They should even dress her in a red friggin' shirt!


    Miner was a decent Meg in season 5. I think the problems with her now are more to do with bad writing than acting ability, they've kept Meg around for so long she's outlasted the plots she was relevant to. She has nothing to do with the leviathans or Ghost!Bobby. Their attempts at shoehorning her into Cas' story, romantically or otherwise, have come off as awkward and contrived. She's like Lisa and Ben were in season 6, continually reappearing while contributing nothing.


    I can't agree with that at all. She's stillrelevant in that she's the last hold out in Hell against Crowley and that makes her a major target of him and his demon hoard. Herinvolvementin the other story lines is natural because, yeah, in herpositionhe needs an edge and Cas is her edge. It's not unnatural or forced that she would try and get into his good graces to protect herself nor, in his mental state, that he would allow it. I doubt he's buying into it and I don't see anything romantic happening, likely he was just playing along.


    Cas mentioned he could see it all and see connections others couldn't and all that so it's unlikely he isn't seeing right through her and knows exactly what she's up to but while she's not a direct threat (and he certainly has noloyaltyto Crowley) he's playing along. Better that than have her out there doing who knows what out ofdesperation.

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  • Avatar of Tyrathius

    Tyrathius

    [98]May 10, 2012
    • member since: 09/27/11
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 90

    libra113 wrote:


    Tyrathius wrote:


    smegmag wrote:
    taxcat11 wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    taxcat11 wrote:


    Personally I think keeping Meg as a character was a mistake. Nicki Aycox so owns that character that it isn't really fair to Rachel Miner to try and be it. I think the same about YED, and even Alastair. I didn't have such a problem with Lilith or Ruby but then Lilith was switching between a little girl and an adult which made a difference and Ruby was recycling and how can you not approve of that. But really there was no need to keep Meg - any she demon could have gone against the tide. I suppose she is thinking hell could use a queen rather than a king, because she doesn't seem to be a follower anymore.


    It's really better that it be a demon with a history that we know than just some random demon we know nothing about and have no history with. Oh and to be fair yeah Nicki may have originated the role but she was only in it for few episodes and it was years ago. At this point the role has been played by a couple of people and is really much more of anindependentcharacter than associated with any one actor anymore.


    They had plenty of time to introduce a new demon - there was no history for Ruby when she appeared on the scene, same for Alastair. As to the others who have played Meg - they weren't convincing either and so memorable I couldn't tell who they were or what episodes they appeared in. No doubt Meg was written the same as way but as the acting was different so it didn't feel like the same character.
    I really liked Nicki Aycox's Meg and I never warmed to Rachel Miner's portrayal. Like it or not Aycox set the chararacter and anyone who followed needed to adapt to that to some extent. People who've had massive facial reconstruction still tilt their heads in the same way, still have the same gait, posture and other subtle mannerisms, I actually thought JP did a good job of that in BUABS--he was one scary bit$h. That's probably why I didn't care for Ruby2(and no not for 1 instant did I not think she was evil--a demon is a demon is a demon--they all need to end badly) I think I liked lady Raph because she brought (with little screentime or dialogue) just enough of old Raph through. Totally hoping, they've included Meg on the team so they can have a token fatality. They should even dress her in a red friggin' shirt!


    Miner was a decent Meg in season 5. I think the problems with her now are more to do with bad writing than acting ability, they've kept Meg around for so long she's outlasted the plots she was relevant to. She has nothing to do with the leviathans or Ghost!Bobby. Their attempts at shoehorning her into Cas' story, romantically or otherwise, have come off as awkward and contrived. She's like Lisa and Ben were in season 6, continually reappearing while contributing nothing.


    I can't agree with that at all. She's stillrelevant in that she's the last hold out in Hell against Crowley and that makes her a major target of him and his demon hoard. Herinvolvementin the other story lines is natural because, yeah, in herpositionhe needs an edge and Cas is her edge. It's not unnatural or forced that she would try and get into his good graces to protect herself nor, in his mental state, that he would allow it. I doubt he's buying into it and I don't see anything romantic happening, likely he was just playing along.


    Cas mentioned he could see it all and see connections others couldn't and all that so it's unlikely he isn't seeing right through her and knows exactly what she's up to but while she's not a direct threat (and he certainly has noloyaltyto Crowley) he's playing along. Better that than have her out there doing who knows what out ofdesperation.



    But Crowley himself is only a footnote in season 7. As Dean put it, he's not the villain right now. He's not openly opposing the Winchesters or aiding the leviathans, he's off doing his own thing, and if that happens to be wiping out Meg... Well, that's not something the Winchesters should be particularly inclined to care about. Castiel himself isn't interested in fighting Crowley or helping Meg, which makes her interest in him seem like a hollow hand wave for keeping her around.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [99]May 10, 2012
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385

    Tyrathius wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Tyrathius wrote:


    smegmag wrote:
    taxcat11 wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    taxcat11 wrote:


    Personally I think keeping Meg as a character was a mistake. Nicki Aycox so owns that character that it isn't really fair to Rachel Miner to try and be it. I think the same about YED, and even Alastair. I didn't have such a problem with Lilith or Ruby but then Lilith was switching between a little girl and an adult which made a difference and Ruby was recycling and how can you not approve of that. But really there was no need to keep Meg - any she demon could have gone against the tide. I suppose she is thinking hell could use a queen rather than a king, because she doesn't seem to be a follower anymore.


    It's really better that it be a demon with a history that we know than just some random demon we know nothing about and have no history with. Oh and to be fair yeah Nicki may have originated the role but she was only in it for few episodes and it was years ago. At this point the role has been played by a couple of people and is really much more of anindependentcharacter than associated with any one actor anymore.


    They had plenty of time to introduce a new demon - there was no history for Ruby when she appeared on the scene, same for Alastair. As to the others who have played Meg - they weren't convincing either and so memorable I couldn't tell who they were or what episodes they appeared in. No doubt Meg was written the same as way but as the acting was different so it didn't feel like the same character.
    I really liked Nicki Aycox's Meg and I never warmed to Rachel Miner's portrayal. Like it or not Aycox set the chararacter and anyone who followed needed to adapt to that to some extent. People who've had massive facial reconstruction still tilt their heads in the same way, still have the same gait, posture and other subtle mannerisms, I actually thought JP did a good job of that in BUABS--he was one scary bit$h. That's probably why I didn't care for Ruby2(and no not for 1 instant did I not think she was evil--a demon is a demon is a demon--they all need to end badly) I think I liked lady Raph because she brought (with little screentime or dialogue) just enough of old Raph through. Totally hoping, they've included Meg on the team so they can have a token fatality. They should even dress her in a red friggin' shirt!


    Miner was a decent Meg in season 5. I think the problems with her now are more to do with bad writing than acting ability, they've kept Meg around for so long she's outlasted the plots she was relevant to. She has nothing to do with the leviathans or Ghost!Bobby. Their attempts at shoehorning her into Cas' story, romantically or otherwise, have come off as awkward and contrived. She's like Lisa and Ben were in season 6, continually reappearing while contributing nothing.


    I can't agree with that at all. She's stillrelevant in that she's the last hold out in Hell against Crowley and that makes her a major target of him and his demon hoard. Herinvolvementin the other story lines is natural because, yeah, in herpositionhe needs an edge and Cas is her edge. It's not unnatural or forced that she would try and get into his good graces to protect herself nor, in his mental state, that he would allow it. I doubt he's buying into it and I don't see anything romantic happening, likely he was just playing along.


    Cas mentioned he could see it all and see connections others couldn't and all that so it's unlikely he isn't seeing right through her and knows exactly what she's up to but while she's not a direct threat (and he certainly has noloyaltyto Crowley) he's playing along. Better that than have her out there doing who knows what out ofdesperation.



    But Crowley himself is only a footnote in season 7. As Dean put it, he's not the villain right now. He's not openly opposing the Winchesters or aiding the leviathans, he's off doing his own thing, and if that happens to be wiping out Meg... Well, that's not something the Winchesters should be particularly inclined to care about. Castiel himself isn't interested in fighting Crowley or helping Meg, which makes her interest in him seem like a hollow hand wave for keeping her around.


    Except if she's not around who was going to stay with Cas while he was in the mentalhospitalmuch less help Dean get Cas there in the first place (before he remembered how to take out demons)? Bobby is a now you see him, now you don't ghost. Cas himself was presumed dead, then had no memories and now is not all there and not inclined to help them out. Even if it's Meg and they hate her she's better than nothing. They can't be everywhere at once and can't take time out to do other stuff. Someone has to pick up the slack.


    Anyway, Crowley may not be an issue now but he will be once the Leviathans are dealt with.

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  • Avatar of Tyrathius

    Tyrathius

    [100]May 10, 2012
    • member since: 09/27/11
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 90

    The call-us-when-he-wakes-up thing could have just as easily been done by the hospital staff as it was by Meg (and frankly, they'd have been more reliable about it). Meg didn't destroy the demons at the hospital, Cas did, and while she did bring up that he could, Dean already knew it and likely would have decided to use him even without her once he decided there was no other way. She's not crucial in either instance, but was written anyway in just so she'd have something to do.


    Crowley isn't a threat right now, sure, he might become one later, but you could say the same thing about Meg. Fact of the matter is Crowley is only has minor importance to the plot right now, and Meg and her fight with him have even less.

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