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Official Discussion Thread: Reading is Fundamental (possible spoilers)

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    lachlan_j_g

    [101]May 10, 2012
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    Tyrathius wrote:


    The call-us-when-he-wakes-up thing could have just as easily been done by the hospital staff as it was by Meg (and frankly, they'd have been more reliable about it). Meg didn't destroy the demons at the hospital, Cas did, and while she did bring up that he could, Dean already knew it and likely would have decided to use him even without her once he decided there was no other way. She's not crucial in either instance, but was written anyway in just so she'd have something to do.


    Crowley isn't a threat right now, sure, he might become one later, but you could say the same thing about Meg. Fact of the matter is Crowley is only has minor importance to the plot right now, and Meg and her fight with him have even less.



    I suppose it could also be a setup for next season - so that if and when Meg & Crowley pop back into the season, they have a bit of background as to what they have been upto for the past year

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [102]May 11, 2012
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    Tyrathius wrote:


    The call-us-when-he-wakes-up thing could have just as easily been done by the hospital staff as it was by Meg (and frankly, they'd have been more reliable about it). Meg didn't destroy the demons at the hospital, Cas did, and while she did bring up that he could, Dean already knew it and likely would have decided to use him even without her once he decided there was no other way. She's not crucial in either instance, but was written anyway in just so she'd have something to do.


    Crowley isn't a threat right now, sure, he might become one later, but you could say the same thing about Meg. Fact of the matter is Crowley is only has minor importance to the plot right now, and Meg and her fight with him have even less.


    Oh yeah and what are they going to do when demons come? Sure Cas took care of the demons outside (but only because Meg nudged him into remembering which Dean was trying desperately to avoid) but someone would have to give him a heads up (especially since he was so messed up by the end that he couldn't really do anything). Bottom line they needed someone there who knew what was really going on and knew how to, at least, by time for Cas to focus if not take care of the demons themselves and with everyone else gone Meg was the only choice.


    Now if Bobby was still alive maybe they could have taken Cas there, even kept him in the panic room so that nothing could get him, but those options are gone and you have to play the hand you are dealt even if that means turning to someone you don't really like or trust. For now anyway.


    Even if the whole Crowley/Meg issue isn't front and center now it will be and if you pass up any chances to make any moves now you only make the situation worse later. You can't just focus on the here and now, you also have to play for the future (just in case there is a future).

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    Tyrathius

    [103]May 11, 2012
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    As far as we know, though, nothing did come after Cas. All the demons who knew he was at the mental hospital were killed, and as far as the rest of them knew Cas was dead and Emmanuel was on the run after a demon came after him and his wife. Meg was unnecessary in that regard, and, let's face it, anything powerful enough to come after Cas, even in his weakened state, Meg wouldn't have been a threat to.

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  • Avatar of WCSU1987

    WCSU1987

    [104]May 11, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:

    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I am worried about Cas and Meg's influence over him.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I would be more worried about Lucifer's influence over him. I never accepted that Lucifer was just a hallucination of Sam's. What totally convinced me was the ep where Sam and Lucifer are sitting at a table. Sam gets angry and tells the Lucifer/hallucination to shut up, then gets up from the table and walks away. Once Sam is out of earshot, Luci says to himself,,,"he said shut up to me." Hallucinations do not talk to themselves because they don't exist. And when Castiel took Sam's memories into himself, Castiel was terrified when Luci said,,,"hello, brother." Somehow I think a part of Lucifer has managed leave the Cage, or influence things outside of it. And I don't think the return of Meg is just an accident. She's a Lucifer loyalist, and may try to release all of Lucifer from the Cage, again. Maybe Crowley knows she is on to something, and thats why he is so desperate to kill her. The last thing Crowley would want is Lucifer free again, as he would be number one on Luci's hit list.


    No. That's a step backward and I seriously doubt that they would want to take a step backward and live in the show's past. For all the talk about losing it's edge and jumping the shark THAT would be the true point the show fell apart. Any show that tries to go backward and rehash the past really has lived past it's sell by date.


    There's nothing new that Lucifer can bring to the table. He gets out and it's back to season five all over again and that story is over and done with.

    I probably misread something way back. They were talking about Sam's character and how he is the centralized character in the show. Every season has had somewhat been centralized around him. Could possibly be true. I am not sure if that might happen, but I think still not out of the picture just yet. With Edgar and the Lev.'s in the first episode this season. When in Castiel did they not say there are five of us here and they all went out into the world. We only saw Edgar and Dick where are the other three?
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  • Avatar of WCSU1987

    WCSU1987

    [105]May 11, 2012
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    Season 1 Sam joins Dean and makes peace with his dad Season 2 Sam dies and Dean sells his soul for Sam Season 3 Dean dies and Sam's powers begin to appear Season 4 Sam unlocks big L from the cage Season 5 Sam sobers up and in the end locks big L up Season 6 Big M is gone from Heaven. Sam comes back except not in one piece. Sam's wall breaks in the end. Castiel goes rouge. Season 7 Sam deals with the wall breaking. Yet to determine where they will go.

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    CharmedOneP391

    [106]May 11, 2012
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    WCSU1987 wrote:


    Season 1 Sam joins Dean and makes peace with his dad Season 2 Sam dies and Dean sells his soul for Sam Season 3 Dean dies and Sam's powers begin to appear Season 4 Sam unlocks big L from the cage Season 5 Sam sobers up and in the end locks big L up Season 6 Big M is gone from Heaven. Sam comes back except not in one piece. Sam's wall breaks in the end. Castiel goes rouge. Season 7 Sam deals with the wall breaking. Yet to determine where they will go.




    That's really just explaining Sam's role in each season.



    I'd say when the show did focus on Sam it was always through Dean's point of view. We're always supposed to assume Dean is right and that his judgement is correct.


    I don't pick sides over the brothers..I can't really stand when a SPN fan says it's all about Sam or Dean..it's really not one sided.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [107]May 11, 2012
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    Tyrathius wrote:


    As far as we know, though, nothing did come after Cas. All the demons who knew he was at the mental hospital were killed, and as far as the rest of them knew Cas was dead and Emmanuel was on the run after a demon came after him and his wife. Meg was unnecessary in that regard, and, let's face it, anything powerful enough to come after Cas, even in his weakened state, Meg wouldn't have been a threat to.


    Yeah but something COULD have come and they couldn't have just left him there surrounded by people who didn't know what was really going on. What if he had started to come out of it and mentioned what was really happening and, thinking he was crazy, they shot him up with drugs or something and it only made him slip back into his coma? You can't just leave someone like Cas in the hands of people who don't know what they're dealing with. Anyway, even if she couldn't have taken whatever might have came (and I don't see why not she can handle her own kind and angels had no idea he was alive or anything and she did have an angel sword even if they did show up) she had a hell of a lot better chance than some random doctor or nurse or night security guy or whatever.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [108]May 11, 2012
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    CharmedOneP391 wrote:


    WCSU1987 wrote:


    Season 1 Sam joins Dean and makes peace with his dad Season 2 Sam dies and Dean sells his soul for Sam Season 3 Dean dies and Sam's powers begin to appear Season 4 Sam unlocks big L from the cage Season 5 Sam sobers up and in the end locks big L up Season 6 Big M is gone from Heaven. Sam comes back except not in one piece. Sam's wall breaks in the end. Castiel goes rouge. Season 7 Sam deals with the wall breaking. Yet to determine where they will go.




    That's really just explaining Sam's role in each season.



    I'd say when the show did focus on Sam it was always through Dean's point of view. We're always supposed to assume Dean is right and that his judgement is correct.


    I don't pick sides over the brothers..I can't really stand when a SPN fan says it's all about Sam or Dean..it's really not one sided.


    Well, Kripke said from the start that it's Sam's story told through Dean's eyes. Sam is Luke Skywalker and Dean is Han Solo. Luke is the central hero and power figure but he wouldn't have gotten where he needed to be and be able to do what he needed to do with Han around to handle everything else.


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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [109]May 11, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I am worried about Cas and Meg's influence over him.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I would be more worried about Lucifer's influence over him. I never accepted that Lucifer was just a hallucination of Sam's. What totally convinced me was the ep where Sam and Lucifer are sitting at a table. Sam gets angry and tells the Lucifer/hallucination to shut up, then gets up from the table and walks away. Once Sam is out of earshot, Luci says to himself,,,"he said shut up to me." Hallucinations do not talk to themselves because they don't exist. And when Castiel took Sam's memories into himself, Castiel was terrified when Luci said,,,"hello, brother." Somehow I think a part of Lucifer has managed leave the Cage, or influence things outside of it. And I don't think the return of Meg is just an accident. She's a Lucifer loyalist, and may try to release all of Lucifer from the Cage, again. Maybe Crowley knows she is on to something, and thats why he is so desperate to kill her. The last thing Crowley would want is Lucifer free again, as he would be number one on Luci's hit list.


    No. That's a step backward and I seriously doubt that they would want to take a step backward and live in the show's past. For all the talk about losing it's edge and jumping the shark THAT would be the true point the show fell apart. Any show that tries to go backward and rehash the past really has lived past it's sell by date.


    There's nothing new that Lucifer can bring to the table. He gets out and it's back to season five all over again and that story is over and done with.




    I agree that it would be a step backwards if they intended to try and revive the apocalypse story line by bringing Lucifer back. However, you're making the assumption that his return would herald the return of the same storyline. Remember, just before Lucifer and Michael were about to fight, it was Lucifer who made one last plea/suggestion that they just abandon the chess board. Lucifer, like most other angels, only went along with the apocalypse because, aside from the fact that he had daddy issues and hated humanity, he felt he had no choice. To him, like 97 percent of the other angels, free will was an illusion. He stated as much in Episode 10 of season 5 when he told Sam "I have to do this Sam, I have to!". Given the fact that Lucifer, like Cas now, was always the most rebellious, I don't find it that hard to see him accepting that free will does exist and, as such, not feeling the need to incinerate the earth in an all out death match with his brother. To be honest, I'm not sure how he would be if he truly was free, but maybe that's the point- maybe save for tormenting Sam, he doesn't know what to do with himself.


    Furthermore, do you remember Cas's comment to Crowley in the season opener? "We have to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage". Notice the omittance of Lucifer's name as one who had to be kept locked away? It adds to the theory that he has been out this whole time, which, in my opinion, would be a pretty nice twist on the part of the writers since everyone seems to think he's just a hallucination.


    Yeah but at the end of the day he still kept pushingforwardwith his plan and I don't really see what else they COULD do with him. It was have to be on the same level as him destroying the world as planned but not that. Can't just bring him back and have him hanging around mocking Sam or something that would be stupid. He would need a purpose, something Sam and Dean would have to stop.


    As for not mentioning Lucifer that's becasue Cas' attention was on gaining and keeping Heaven out of the hands of Raph. Micheal was the greatest threat to Cas' goals because he would be a direct threat to Cas' postions not to mention Raph would then try and start the whole thing all over again and Cas worked so hard and gave up so much to keep it from happening the last thing he would want is to risk it starting over again. That was the whole point of joining up with Crowley and trying to find Purgatory and everything he did (up until he fell under the influence of the souls and all that).


    In short, no more Lucifer, no more Micheal, turn the page and go on to the next threat to human race.




    While I respect your opinion, and understand it to an extent, I don't see why it would have to be on the same level as destroying the human race provided he was included in an intricate plot that was tied to the execution of a fairly important aspect of the story line. Certainly, he couldn't just be a side character, but that doesn't mean it has to be all or nothing as well. I mentioned in the other thread that there is a chance it's Lucifer's blood the brothers need and not Crowley's so who knows, maybe they'll need him for that. Furthermore, if there's no more Lucifer or Michael, how are the writers supposed to finish up Adam's plot? If they're going to eventually free him/have him escape it's not unreasonable to ask how they'd intend on doing so without including either of the two in some way or another. That's not to mention that there are still some questions about Nick that I wouldn't mind having answered such as what was the relation between him and Sam since angels can only possess people of the same blood line. Some people have speculated that Nick was another generation of Azazel's special children, and as such, both him and Sam shared the same blood. Or who knows, maybe Nick had some kind of a blood connection with Mary. Whatever it is, I wouldn't mind hearing it explained one day because I'm a stickler for details and explanations (although I'll admit the chances of that are pretty slim).

    As far as Cas and his statement go, this is where I reply that while Occam's Razor is sometimes an appropriate tool to measure and explain things, in this case it's too simplistic. If he was worried about Michael then in theory he should have been just as worried about Lucifer. But then you reply that I'm looking at things too in depth as usual and on and on we go and blah, blah, blah. Either we'll see if the statement was hinting at anything more or, given SPN's track record of leaving questions unanswered, we won't. Only time will tell.

    Edited on 05/11/2012 10:43pm
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [110]May 12, 2012
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    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I am worried about Cas and Meg's influence over him.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I would be more worried about Lucifer's influence over him. I never accepted that Lucifer was just a hallucination of Sam's. What totally convinced me was the ep where Sam and Lucifer are sitting at a table. Sam gets angry and tells the Lucifer/hallucination to shut up, then gets up from the table and walks away. Once Sam is out of earshot, Luci says to himself,,,"he said shut up to me." Hallucinations do not talk to themselves because they don't exist. And when Castiel took Sam's memories into himself, Castiel was terrified when Luci said,,,"hello, brother." Somehow I think a part of Lucifer has managed leave the Cage, or influence things outside of it. And I don't think the return of Meg is just an accident. She's a Lucifer loyalist, and may try to release all of Lucifer from the Cage, again. Maybe Crowley knows she is on to something, and thats why he is so desperate to kill her. The last thing Crowley would want is Lucifer free again, as he would be number one on Luci's hit list.


    No. That's a step backward and I seriously doubt that they would want to take a step backward and live in the show's past. For all the talk about losing it's edge and jumping the shark THAT would be the true point the show fell apart. Any show that tries to go backward and rehash the past really has lived past it's sell by date.


    There's nothing new that Lucifer can bring to the table. He gets out and it's back to season five all over again and that story is over and done with.




    I agree that it would be a step backwards if they intended to try and revive the apocalypse story line by bringing Lucifer back. However, you're making the assumption that his return would herald the return of the same storyline. Remember, just before Lucifer and Michael were about to fight, it was Lucifer who made one last plea/suggestion that they just abandon the chess board. Lucifer, like most other angels, only went along with the apocalypse because, aside from the fact that he had daddy issues and hated humanity, he felt he had no choice. To him, like 97 percent of the other angels, free will was an illusion. He stated as much in Episode 10 of season 5 when he told Sam "I have to do this Sam, I have to!". Given the fact that Lucifer, like Cas now, was always the most rebellious, I don't find it that hard to see him accepting that free will does exist and, as such, not feeling the need to incinerate the earth in an all out death match with his brother. To be honest, I'm not sure how he would be if he truly was free, but maybe that's the point- maybe save for tormenting Sam, he doesn't know what to do with himself.


    Furthermore, do you remember Cas's comment to Crowley in the season opener? "We have to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage". Notice the omittance of Lucifer's name as one who had to be kept locked away? It adds to the theory that he has been out this whole time, which, in my opinion, would be a pretty nice twist on the part of the writers since everyone seems to think he's just a hallucination.


    Yeah but at the end of the day he still kept pushingforwardwith his plan and I don't really see what else they COULD do with him. It was have to be on the same level as him destroying the world as planned but not that. Can't just bring him back and have him hanging around mocking Sam or something that would be stupid. He would need a purpose, something Sam and Dean would have to stop.


    As for not mentioning Lucifer that's becasue Cas' attention was on gaining and keeping Heaven out of the hands of Raph. Micheal was the greatest threat to Cas' goals because he would be a direct threat to Cas' postions not to mention Raph would then try and start the whole thing all over again and Cas worked so hard and gave up so much to keep it from happening the last thing he would want is to risk it starting over again. That was the whole point of joining up with Crowley and trying to find Purgatory and everything he did (up until he fell under the influence of the souls and all that).


    In short, no more Lucifer, no more Micheal, turn the page and go on to the next threat to human race.




    While I respect your opinion, and understand it to an extent, I don't see why it would have to be on the same level as destroying the human race provided he was included in an intricate plot that was tied to the execution of a fairly important aspect of the story line. Certainly, he couldn't just be a side character, but that doesn't mean it has to be all or nothing as well. I mentioned in the other thread that there is a chance it's Lucifer's blood the brothers need and not Crowley's so who knows, maybe they'll need him for that. Furthermore, if there's no more Lucifer or Michael, how are the writers supposed to finish up Adam's plot? If they're going to eventually free him/have him escape it's not unreasonable to ask how they'd intend on doing so without including either of the two in some way or another. That's not to mention that there are still some questions about Nick that I wouldn't mind having answered such as what was the relation between him and Sam since angels can only possess people of the same blood line. Some people have speculated that Nick was another generation of Azazel's special children, and as such, both him and Sam shared the same blood. Or who knows, maybe Nick had some kind of a blood connection with Mary. Whatever it is, I wouldn't mind hearing it explained one day because I'm a stickler for details and explanations (although I'll admit the chances of that are pretty slim).

    As far as Cas and his statement go, this is where I reply that while Occam's Razor is sometimes an appropriate tool to measure and explain things, in this case it's too simplistic. If he was worried about Michael then in theory he should have been just as worried about Lucifer. But then you reply that I'm looking at things too in depth as usual and on and on we go and blah, blah, blah. Either we'll see if the statement was hinting at anything more or, given SPN's track record of leaving questions unanswered, we won't. Only time will tell.


    Yeah, I saw those posts and since I and others dealt with those already I won't repeat them here. Every major plot they have had leads to the world being in danger. Lucifer hates humans and wants them all dead. Can't see him doing anything short of that and it's been done already.


    I really doubt they will ever even mention Adam again much less free him. Honestly, there isn't any real and safe way to pull him out (unless they make up something new now) so I think the writers are just going to let it go. Notice they have only rarely mentioned him and there's been no attempt or even talk of freeing him since Dean's deal with Death.


    The only way I could see him returning would be if they talked Death into pulling him out to get the bone they need but he doesn't really fit the bill for that and I can't imagine them bringing him back just so Sam and Dean can kill him (or maim him) for a bone.


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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [111]May 12, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    Yeah, I saw those posts and since I and others dealt with those already I won't repeat them here.



    Lol, and I've seen your definition of "dealt" with, many many times. While you might be right in some cases, with all due respect, just because you say something doesn't make it gospel (I leave that to the actual writers). Furthermore, just because you may or may not have the answer to something, doesn't mean it's not worth the writers explaining something which was never explained to the audience in the first place because the majority of people who watch SPN don't actually frequent SPN message boards to hear these discussions.




    libra113 wrote:


    I really doubt they will ever even mention Adam again much less free him. Honestly, there isn't any real and safe way to pull him out (unless they make up something new now) so I think the writers are just going to let it go. Notice they have only rarely mentioned him and there's been no attempt or even talk of freeing him since Dean's deal with Death.



    So your solution is, because it's to difficult to deal with, to just forget it? They've tackled far more difficult subjects than this and given that his character got one of the worst deals in fictional history I would argue the writers kind of owe it to him to at least give him an end, whatever it may be.


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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [112]May 12, 2012
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    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Yeah, I saw those posts and since I and others dealt with those already I won't repeat them here.



    Lol, and I've seen your definition of "dealt" with, many many times. While you might be right in some cases, with all due respect, just because you say something doesn't make it gospel (I leave that to the actual writers). Furthermore, just because you may or may not have the answer to something, doesn't mean it's not worth the writers explaining something which was never explained to the audience in the first place because the majority of people who watch SPN don't actually frequent SPN message boards to hear these discussions.




    libra113 wrote:


    I really doubt they will ever even mention Adam again much less free him. Honestly, there isn't any real and safe way to pull him out (unless they make up something new now) so I think the writers are just going to let it go. Notice they have only rarely mentioned him and there's been no attempt or even talk of freeing him since Dean's deal with Death.



    So your solution is, because it's to difficult to deal with, to just forget it? They've tackled far more difficult subjects than this and given that his character got one of the worst deals in fictional history I would argue the writers kind of owe it to him to at least give him an end, whatever it may be.



    Wow. I never said what I post is 'gospel' but if you're referring to the stuff about Chuck being God, I'm sorry they didn't spell it out on the show but the people who actually work on the show (the writers you've mentioned, or moreaccuratelythe creator of the show, the actor who played Chuck and others) have made it clear. Again sorry it wasn't on the show perhaps they felt they made it clear enough at the time but when they found out that some didn't see it they were clarifying. Not everything can be dealt with on the show itself since, at this point, it would require back tracking and shows don't back track to just to explain things.


    As for the rest, no I didn't say that. What I was saying is they've kind of written themselves into a position where they probably are just going to have to leave Adam where he is. They've pretty much said about the only way to get him back now is to have Death do it. Death won't do it unless there's a good reason and given that the show isn't big on happy endings they're not going to do it just to send him back to Heaven and let him live happily ever after.


    I would love to see him come back but there has to be a purpose. You can't have a character show up unless they have something to add to the story.


    I would love to see Bella return as she got the rawest deal of any "Supernatural" character I can think of. She had two abusive parents (implied that her father molested her and, at best, her mother turned a blind eye and that they had the money and status to avoidconsequenceseven if she told someone), she pretty much gets snowed by Lilith into making a deal when it's doubtful she really knew what to do. Then she got killed and sent to Hell to suffer for all eterinity.


    I would love to see her come back and get a second chance but it's not going to happen tobecausethere's no point to it. She would add nothing to the story and they're not going to bring her back just to give her a happy ending.


    As sad as it is the "Supernatural" universe isn't fair. Good people get bad ends and suffer. Innocent people die all the time and more often than not stuff isn't wrapped up in neat little bows. Tends to be more like real life like that sometimes.

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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [113]May 12, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Yeah, I saw those posts and since I and others dealt with those already I won't repeat them here.



    Lol, and I've seen your definition of "dealt" with, many many times. While you might be right in some cases, with all due respect, just because you say something doesn't make it gospel (I leave that to the actual writers). Furthermore, just because you may or may not have the answer to something, doesn't mean it's not worth the writers explaining something which was never explained to the audience in the first place because the majority of people who watch SPN don't actually frequent SPN message boards to hear these discussions.


    libra113 wrote:


    I really doubt they will ever even mention Adam again much less free him. Honestly, there isn't any real and safe way to pull him out (unless they make up something new now) so I think the writers are just going to let it go. Notice they have only rarely mentioned him and there's been no attempt or even talk of freeing him since Dean's deal with Death.



    So your solution is, because it's to difficult to deal with, to just forget it? They've tackled far more difficult subjects than this and given that his character got one of the worst deals in fictional history I would argue the writers kind of owe it to him to at least give him an end, whatever it may be.



    Wow. I never said what I post is 'gospel' but if you're referring to the stuff about Chuck being God, I'm sorry they didn't spell it out on the show but the people who actually work on the show (the writers you've mentioned, or moreaccuratelythe creator of the show, the actor who played Chuck and others) have made it clear. Again sorry it wasn't on the show perhaps they felt they made it clear enough at the time but when they found out that some didn't see it they were clarifying. Not everything can be dealt with on the show itself since, at this point, it would require back tracking and shows don't back track to just to explain things.


    As for the rest, no I didn't say that. What I was saying is they've kind of written themselves into a position where they probably are just going to have to leave Adam where he is. They've pretty much said about the only way to get him back now is to have Death do it. Death won't do it unless there's a good reason and given that the show isn't big on happy endings they're not going to do it just to send him back to Heaven and let him live happily ever after.


    I would love to see him come back but there has to be a purpose. You can't have a character show up unless they have something to add to the story.


    I would love to see Bella return as she got the rawest deal of any "Supernatural" character I can think of. She had two abusive parents (implied that her father molested her and, at best, her mother turned a blind eye and that they had the money and status to avoidconsequenceseven if she told someone), she pretty much gets snowed by Lilith into making a deal when it's doubtful she really knew what to do. Then she got killed and sent to Hell to suffer for all eterinity.


    I would love to see her come back and get a second chance but it's not going to happen tobecausethere's no point to it. She would add nothing to the story and they're not going to bring her back just to give her a happy ending.


    As sad as it is the "Supernatural" universe isn't fair. Good people get bad ends and suffer. Innocent people die all the time and more often than not stuff isn't wrapped up in neat little bows. Tends to be more like real life like that sometimes.




    Don't have to apologize. If I respond negatively over a response (or responses) that's my problem, not yours. I do think you sometimes make unfounded assumptions, as opposed to being a little more opened minded when there is evidence to support an idea, but then again you probably feel that I don't read lot of your responses properly, so maybe I shouldn't talk.


    But just for the record, I wasn't referring to the Chuck thing.


    Anyways, I'm going to go and eat my steak now.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [114]May 13, 2012
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388

    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Yeah, I saw those posts and since I and others dealt with those already I won't repeat them here.



    Lol, and I've seen your definition of "dealt" with, many many times. While you might be right in some cases, with all due respect, just because you say something doesn't make it gospel (I leave that to the actual writers). Furthermore, just because you may or may not have the answer to something, doesn't mean it's not worth the writers explaining something which was never explained to the audience in the first place because the majority of people who watch SPN don't actually frequent SPN message boards to hear these discussions.


    libra113 wrote:


    I really doubt they will ever even mention Adam again much less free him. Honestly, there isn't any real and safe way to pull him out (unless they make up something new now) so I think the writers are just going to let it go. Notice they have only rarely mentioned him and there's been no attempt or even talk of freeing him since Dean's deal with Death.



    So your solution is, because it's to difficult to deal with, to just forget it? They've tackled far more difficult subjects than this and given that his character got one of the worst deals in fictional history I would argue the writers kind of owe it to him to at least give him an end, whatever it may be.



    Wow. I never said what I post is 'gospel' but if you're referring to the stuff about Chuck being God, I'm sorry they didn't spell it out on the show but the people who actually work on the show (the writers you've mentioned, or moreaccuratelythe creator of the show, the actor who played Chuck and others) have made it clear. Again sorry it wasn't on the show perhaps they felt they made it clear enough at the time but when they found out that some didn't see it they were clarifying. Not everything can be dealt with on the show itself since, at this point, it would require back tracking and shows don't back track to just to explain things.


    As for the rest, no I didn't say that. What I was saying is they've kind of written themselves into a position where they probably are just going to have to leave Adam where he is. They've pretty much said about the only way to get him back now is to have Death do it. Death won't do it unless there's a good reason and given that the show isn't big on happy endings they're not going to do it just to send him back to Heaven and let him live happily ever after.


    I would love to see him come back but there has to be a purpose. You can't have a character show up unless they have something to add to the story.


    I would love to see Bella return as she got the rawest deal of any "Supernatural" character I can think of. She had two abusive parents (implied that her father molested her and, at best, her mother turned a blind eye and that they had the money and status to avoidconsequenceseven if she told someone), she pretty much gets snowed by Lilith into making a deal when it's doubtful she really knew what to do. Then she got killed and sent to Hell to suffer for all eterinity.


    I would love to see her come back and get a second chance but it's not going to happen tobecausethere's no point to it. She would add nothing to the story and they're not going to bring her back just to give her a happy ending.


    As sad as it is the "Supernatural" universe isn't fair. Good people get bad ends and suffer. Innocent people die all the time and more often than not stuff isn't wrapped up in neat little bows. Tends to be more like real life like that sometimes.




    Don't have to apologize. If I respond negatively over a response (or responses) that's my problem, not yours. I do think you sometimes make unfounded assumptions, as opposed to being a little more opened minded when there is evidence to support an idea, but then again you probably feel that I don't read lot of your responses properly, so maybe I shouldn't talk.


    But just for the record, I wasn't referring to the Chuck thing.


    Anyways, I'm going to go and eat my steak now.


    Well, everyone sees things their own way and sometimes the writers do things that end up leading nowhere (I remember in the first episode there was a lot of talk because Sam used the present tense when talking about Mary instead of past tense, or in season two Sam was talking about having killed and Dean didn't make a distinction between killing humans and monsters possibly implying that Sam had killed a person before and of course there's the whole Bloody Mary thing that, so far, has gone nowhere). So thedifference between an actual clue, an intentional misdirect and the writers just not being as precise in their phrasing as we would like is all a matter of speculation. It's really anyone's guess until it happens.


    Steak. Something we can ALL agree on.

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  • Avatar of gatoraderising

    gatoraderising

    [115]May 13, 2012
    • member since: 02/23/11
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 431
    libra113 wrote:

    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Yeah, I saw those posts and since I and others dealt with those already I won't repeat them here.



    Lol, and I've seen your definition of "dealt" with, many many times. While you might be right in some cases, with all due respect, just because you say something doesn't make it gospel (I leave that to the actual writers). Furthermore, just because you may or may not have the answer to something, doesn't mean it's not worth the writers explaining something which was never explained to the audience in the first place because the majority of people who watch SPN don't actually frequent SPN message boards to hear these discussions.




    libra113 wrote:


    I really doubt they will ever even mention Adam again much less free him. Honestly, there isn't any real and safe way to pull him out (unless they make up something new now) so I think the writers are just going to let it go. Notice they have only rarely mentioned him and there's been no attempt or even talk of freeing him since Dean's deal with Death.



    So your solution is, because it's to difficult to deal with, to just forget it? They've tackled far more difficult subjects than this and given that his character got one of the worst deals in fictional history I would argue the writers kind of owe it to him to at least give him an end, whatever it may be.



    Wow. I never said what I post is 'gospel' but if you're referring to the stuff about Chuck being God, I'm sorry they didn't spell it out on the show but the people who actually work on the show (the writers you've mentioned, or moreaccuratelythe creator of the show, the actor who played Chuck and others) have made it clear. Again sorry it wasn't on the show perhaps they felt they made it clear enough at the time but when they found out that some didn't see it they were clarifying. Not everything can be dealt with on the show itself since, at this point, it would require back tracking and shows don't back track to just to explain things.


    As for the rest, no I didn't say that. What I was saying is they've kind of written themselves into a position where they probably are just going to have to leave Adam where he is. They've pretty much said about the only way to get him back now is to have Death do it. Death won't do it unless there's a good reason and given that the show isn't big on happy endings they're not going to do it just to send him back to Heaven and let him live happily ever after.


    I would love to see him come back but there has to be a purpose. You can't have a character show up unless they have something to add to the story.


    I would love to see Bella return as she got the rawest deal of any "Supernatural" character I can think of. She had two abusive parents (implied that her father molested her and, at best, her mother turned a blind eye and that they had the money and status to avoidconsequenceseven if she told someone), she pretty much gets snowed by Lilith into making a deal when it's doubtful she really knew what to do. Then she got killed and sent to Hell to suffer for all eterinity.


    I would love to see her come back and get a second chance but it's not going to happen tobecausethere's no point to it. She would add nothing to the story and they're not going to bring her back just to give her a happy ending.


    As sad as it is the "Supernatural" universe isn't fair. Good people get bad ends and suffer. Innocent people die all the time and more often than not stuff isn't wrapped up in neat little bows. Tends to be more like real life like that sometimes.



    Adam got a way worst ending to his character then Bella did. Adam was first killed by those monsters in season 4 then was made a angel condom by Michael. Now he's trapped in Lucifers cage with 2 very pissed Archangel. Their both in Hell but whos Hell is worst... Adam's
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [116]May 13, 2012
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388

    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Yeah, I saw those posts and since I and others dealt with those already I won't repeat them here.



    Lol, and I've seen your definition of "dealt" with, many many times. While you might be right in some cases, with all due respect, just because you say something doesn't make it gospel (I leave that to the actual writers). Furthermore, just because you may or may not have the answer to something, doesn't mean it's not worth the writers explaining something which was never explained to the audience in the first place because the majority of people who watch SPN don't actually frequent SPN message boards to hear these discussions.




    libra113 wrote:


    I really doubt they will ever even mention Adam again much less free him. Honestly, there isn't any real and safe way to pull him out (unless they make up something new now) so I think the writers are just going to let it go. Notice they have only rarely mentioned him and there's been no attempt or even talk of freeing him since Dean's deal with Death.



    So your solution is, because it's to difficult to deal with, to just forget it? They've tackled far more difficult subjects than this and given that his character got one of the worst deals in fictional history I would argue the writers kind of owe it to him to at least give him an end, whatever it may be.



    Wow. I never said what I post is 'gospel' but if you're referring to the stuff about Chuck being God, I'm sorry they didn't spell it out on the show but the people who actually work on the show (the writers you've mentioned, or moreaccuratelythe creator of the show, the actor who played Chuck and others) have made it clear. Again sorry it wasn't on the show perhaps they felt they made it clear enough at the time but when they found out that some didn't see it they were clarifying. Not everything can be dealt with on the show itself since, at this point, it would require back tracking and shows don't back track to just to explain things.


    As for the rest, no I didn't say that. What I was saying is they've kind of written themselves into a position where they probably are just going to have to leave Adam where he is. They've pretty much said about the only way to get him back now is to have Death do it. Death won't do it unless there's a good reason and given that the show isn't big on happy endings they're not going to do it just to send him back to Heaven and let him live happily ever after.


    I would love to see him come back but there has to be a purpose. You can't have a character show up unless they have something to add to the story.


    I would love to see Bella return as she got the rawest deal of any "Supernatural" character I can think of. She had two abusive parents (implied that her father molested her and, at best, her mother turned a blind eye and that they had the money and status to avoidconsequenceseven if she told someone), she pretty much gets snowed by Lilith into making a deal when it's doubtful she really knew what to do. Then she got killed and sent to Hell to suffer for all eterinity.


    I would love to see her come back and get a second chance but it's not going to happen tobecausethere's no point to it. She would add nothing to the story and they're not going to bring her back just to give her a happy ending.


    As sad as it is the "Supernatural" universe isn't fair. Good people get bad ends and suffer. Innocent people die all the time and more often than not stuff isn't wrapped up in neat little bows. Tends to be more like real life like that sometimes.


    Adam got a way worst ending to his character then Bella did. Adam was first killed by those monsters in season 4 then was made a angel condom by Michael. Now he's trapped in Lucifers cage with 2 very pissed Archangel. Their both in Hell but whos Hell is worst... Adam's
    Yeah but Bella was an innocent child betrayed by the very people in her life who were supposed to love and protect her. Then she's used by a demon and lured into making a deal she probably didn't understand and was her only out. Then she spends the next ten years being yanked around by the demon, used as a gopher and promised freedom only to end up in Hell.


    Not like she willingly made a deal for wealth or power or anything. She was just talking to another little girl and jumped at the only way to end her suffering.


    In either case they both got a raw deal and I doubt either will get any real justice, not in the show itself anyway.

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  • Avatar of WickedNix

    WickedNix

    [117]May 13, 2012
    • member since: 10/12/10
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 96

    Nearly 98% or so of everything posted here is personal opinion and conjecture. So, to each his own.


    That's what makes this board so interesting. I enjoy reading the differing opinions. Laughing

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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [118]May 18, 2012
    • member since: 05/02/08
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 121

    libra113 wrote:


    Steak. Something we can ALL agree on.



    Indeed, agreed Laughing

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