Official Discussion Thread: Slash Fiction (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [41]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 11/06/09
    • level: 24
    • rank: Golden Girl
    • posts: 5,659
    libra113 wrote:
    Yeah it was clear from the start that would happen. Winchesters NEVER learn their lessons and when they do it's a slow and painful process.


    Lmao, that's quite some paradox --

    This was a very good episode, I'm very satisfied, I hope they keep up with good work.

    I wonder why Crowley was so intimidated by the Leviathans. They are scary, they are apparently immortal, but they don't seem to have any special powers except super-strength and shapeshifting.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [42]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 11/06/09
    • level: 24
    • rank: Golden Girl
    • posts: 5,659
    libra113 wrote:
    Um, they didn't LET the witches go, they were out gunned and had no say in the matter. They barely got away with their lives and had to cut their losses just to get out alive.

    They also didn't let Madision go, Sam shot her during a tearful scene near the end of the episode.

    Ruby only got to live becasue of Sam, although I DID think it would have been more in character to kill her as soon as he got a shot but then again he got his shots here and there and either ended up getting his butt kicked by Ruby or stopped by Sam.

    As for Bobby's friend they didn't KNOW she wasn't human until near the end of her life and even then she hadn't harmed ANYONE and Cas ended up killing her before too long (for his ritual).

    Amy killed, end of story. The reasons and the victims don't matter. As for the kid it obviously wasn't Dean's plan for him to see her die and it's not in his nature to kill a child (monster or not) so he had no choice but to handle the situation as he did.

    As for Sam, it's not in his nature to handle such situations in the same way Dean does. He wouldn't just punch Dean and move on. Sam needs time to cool off and be alone before he even attempts to get deeper into the situation (which I'm sure they will later on).


    Witches killed, end of story
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of WickedNix

    WickedNix

    [43]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 10/12/10
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 96

    Re: CharmedOneP391


    It did sound flippant at first for Dean to tell Amy's kid to look him up in a few years, but I think it was because Dean felt terrible about the kid witnessing his mother's death and in his mind itwas his way of offering the kid a path/chance of retribution in the future. In Dean's frame of mind itpassed for an honorable remark.


    The witchescouldn't be offed by the boys or anybody else at the time. They live because they are more powerful, for now. That loose end could possibly be revisited. But then again, maybe not. You win some and lose some.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [44]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 11/06/09
    • level: 24
    • rank: Golden Girl
    • posts: 5,659

    WickedNix wrote:
    The witchescouldn't be offed by the boys or anybody else at the time. They live because they are more powerful, for now. That loose end could possibly be revisited. But then again, maybe not. You win some and lose some.



    Well, yeah, it could happen, of course. On the other hand, it's basically speculation, more so because there wasn't the tiniest remark by Dean or Sam that they would revisit the witches. Whereas, this Amy thing is being very prominent in the last couple of episodes, it's all building to it, so if it were a simple and characteristic thing, it wouldn't get so much emphasis.


    The argument of being powerful: well, Sam and Dean so far killed/incapacitated angels, demons, Lucifer, Mother of All Monsters...

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of CharmedOneP391

    CharmedOneP391

    [45]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 06/10/05
    • level: 19
    • rank: Fall Guy
    • posts: 1,108

    well when the boys tried to kill the witches with the chicken feet and it didnt work, the wife actually told the boys what they did wrong...that they were chilled or something. they couldve tried again..is all im saying. i dont know..im just soley on sams side on this one...he couldve let her go. im assuming theyre gonna bring the witches back or one of them to try and figure out how to sustain a leviathan again...although they figured it out their own way in this episode. the show just seems to be a little off with who can live or die recently...making it unclear what the brothers believe in the matter.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of WickedNix

    WickedNix

    [46]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 10/12/10
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 96

    CharmedOne and dpebbleson...


    Both of you have valid points.


    At times I thinkthe boys have a problem understanding themselves and how they rationalize their decisions. Neither brotherhas a handbook to follow. It's more learn as you go. They are imperfect characters which isconsistent with their actions.


    The show would be boring if their job was a perfect science.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of lachlan_j_g

    lachlan_j_g

    [47]Oct 30, 2011
    • member since: 03/24/05
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 250

    CharmedOneP391 wrote:


    well when the boys tried to kill the witches with the chicken feet and it didnt work, the wife actually told the boys what they did wrong...that they were chilled or something. they couldve tried again..is all im saying. i dont know..im just soley on sams side on this one...he couldve let her go. im assuming theyre gonna bring the witches back or one of them to try and figure out how to sustain a leviathan again...although they figured it out their own way in this episode. the show just seems to be a little off with who can live or die recently...making it unclear what the brothers believe in the matter.



    yeah they couldve tried again - but there was a reason why the chicken feet were thawed, the lady witch had disabled the power of the only store in town to carry chicken feet (presumably once she knew that there were hunters after her). now they could have gotten some from another town but they also lost the element of surprise which is how they got the drop on them in the first place.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of taxcat11

    taxcat11

    [48]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 11/14/08
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 216

    Having lost the element of surprise, it was not practical to kill the witches by the end of the episode - but more importantly they were under a timeconstraint to deal with the leviathan Chet. As the spell would only last a couple of days, they had to drop everything and see to transporting Chet to Bobby. From a common sense perspective, it would be better to send a couple of new hunters out to deal with the witches, as they now know who the Winchesters are & will no doubt be prepared should they try to finish the job. Having been discovered, it is entirely possible that the witches will pick up stakes and change their identities to slide back under the hunter radar. The witches escape was more about prioritizing then moral waffling.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [49]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Yeah it was clear from the start that would happen. Winchesters NEVER learn their lessons and when they do it's a slow and painful process.


    Lmao, that's quite some paradox --

    This was a very good episode, I'm very satisfied, I hope they keep up with good work.

    I wonder why Crowley was so intimidated by the Leviathans. They are scary, they are apparently immortal, but they don't seem to have any special powers except super-strength and shapeshifting.
    Yes they suffer from a learning disability called stubborniknowbestidec it's not uncommon but is also known as Winchester Desease so that should tell you something.

    Thoes are their only powers that we know of but I wouldn't be suprised if there's more just waiting to be unleashed on an unsuspecting world.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [50]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Um, they didn't LET the witches go, they were out gunned and had no say in the matter. They barely got away with their lives and had to cut their losses just to get out alive.

    They also didn't let Madision go, Sam shot her during a tearful scene near the end of the episode.

    Ruby only got to live becasue of Sam, although I DID think it would have been more in character to kill her as soon as he got a shot but then again he got his shots here and there and either ended up getting his butt kicked by Ruby or stopped by Sam.

    As for Bobby's friend they didn't KNOW she wasn't human until near the end of her life and even then she hadn't harmed ANYONE and Cas ended up killing her before too long (for his ritual).

    Amy killed, end of story. The reasons and the victims don't matter. As for the kid it obviously wasn't Dean's plan for him to see her die and it's not in his nature to kill a child (monster or not) so he had no choice but to handle the situation as he did.

    As for Sam, it's not in his nature to handle such situations in the same way Dean does. He wouldn't just punch Dean and move on. Sam needs time to cool off and be alone before he even attempts to get deeper into the situation (which I'm sure they will later on).


    Witches killed, end of story
    You did see Sam and Dean TRY and kill them right? You saw the massive fail and the things that were done to them after. They went in their again and it failed or they didn't take the witches by suprise they would have dead meat.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [51]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    WickedNix wrote:

    Re: CharmedOneP391


    It did sound flippant at first for Dean to tell Amy's kid to look him up in a few years, but I think it was because Dean felt terrible about the kid witnessing his mother's death and in his mind itwas his way of offering the kid a path/chance of retribution in the future. In Dean's frame of mind itpassed for an honorable remark.


    The witchescouldn't be offed by the boys or anybody else at the time. They live because they are more powerful, for now. That loose end could possibly be revisited. But then again, maybe not. You win some and lose some.

    Yeah I think that might been some way to focus the kid on him and to perhaps give the kid something (or someone) aim for so maybe he won't focus too much on others. Also, it means that when the kid is ready he will come for Dean and either Dean can take him out then or will get taken out himself and either way their business will be done.

    Yeah the witches get to live becasue they're too powerful to kill and (for now) they're not fighting. There may come a time when the situation changes and there may not. Can't expect to bat a thousand all the time.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [52]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    dpebbleson wrote:

    WickedNix wrote:
    The witchescouldn't be offed by the boys or anybody else at the time. They live because they are more powerful, for now. That loose end could possibly be revisited. But then again, maybe not. You win some and lose some.



    Well, yeah, it could happen, of course. On the other hand, it's basically speculation, more so because there wasn't the tiniest remark by Dean or Sam that they would revisit the witches. Whereas, this Amy thing is being very prominent in the last couple of episodes, it's all building to it, so if it were a simple and characteristic thing, it wouldn't get so much emphasis.


    The argument of being powerful: well, Sam and Dean so far killed/incapacitated angels, demons, Lucifer, Mother of All Monsters...

    Yeah but they haven't killed all thoes things on their first try and at the moment they appeared on Sam and Dean's radar. Sometimes it takes time to find just the right approch and given how things worked out it was best to call this a push and wait for another time.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [53]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    CharmedOneP391 wrote:

    well when the boys tried to kill the witches with the chicken feet and it didnt work, the wife actually told the boys what they did wrong...that they were chilled or something. they couldve tried again..is all im saying. i dont know..im just soley on sams side on this one...he couldve let her go. im assuming theyre gonna bring the witches back or one of them to try and figure out how to sustain a leviathan again...although they figured it out their own way in this episode. the show just seems to be a little off with who can live or die recently...making it unclear what the brothers believe in the matter.

    Yeah but now the element of suprise is shot to hell. Better to wait a bit (espeically since they're not killing anymore) and catch them unaware. It's also possible (since she corrected them) that now it won't work becasue she's on guard. The thing is apprently they have to be in the same place with her and do a chant, which gives her plenty of time to fight back while they do that so it's not as simple and you all are making it sound.

    As for the Amy thing she WOULD have killed agian. Lose her job, kid gets sick again, it's more convient. Once you start down that path you can't just stop and she would have done it again. On the other hand the witches where just messing with each other and having a lover's spat that has passed. They WILL kill again too but not until they have anther spat and in the meantime Sam and Dean can work out a new plan and like I said elsewhere the guy is famous so he won't be hard to track down so it's not an issue for now.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [54]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    WickedNix wrote:

    CharmedOne and dpebbleson...


    Both of you have valid points.


    At times I thinkthe boys have a problem understanding themselves and how they rationalize their decisions. Neither brotherhas a handbook to follow. It's more learn as you go. They are imperfect characters which isconsistent with their actions.


    The show would be boring if their job was a perfect science.

    Yeah, Dean acts from his gut and Sam is cold logic. To add to that they have their own rules and biases (Dean won't kill children, no matter how evil and Sam wants to beleave that you can fight you nature and be good no matter what you are) so yeah their choices can be a bit inconsistant. Welcome to humanity and to shades of grey. Do you always make the same choices when presented with similar but not identical issues? I doubt it. Do you make allowances here and there? I'm sure? Human nature.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [55]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    taxcat11 wrote:

    Having lost the element of surprise, it was not practical to kill the witches by the end of the episode - but more importantly they were under a timeconstraint to deal with the leviathan Chet. As the spell would only last a couple of days, they had to drop everything and see to transporting Chet to Bobby. From a common sense perspective, it would be better to send a couple of new hunters out to deal with the witches, as they now know who the Winchesters are & will no doubt be prepared should they try to finish the job. Having been discovered, it is entirely possible that the witches will pick up stakes and change their identities to slide back under the hunter radar. The witches escape was more about prioritizing then moral waffling.

    Given how famous the male witch was (a wealthy and powerful man with wealthy and power friends) it's unlikely he could just change his identity unless he magically changed his appearance too.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of chrolligal

    chrolligal

    [56]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 09/11/11
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 49

    libra113 wrote:
    CharmedOneP391 wrote:


    well when the boys tried to kill the witches with the chicken feet and it didnt work, the wife actually told the boys what they did wrong...that they were chilled or something. they couldve tried again..is all im saying. i dont know..im just soley on sams side on this one...he couldve let her go. im assuming theyre gonna bring the witches back or one of them to try and figure out how to sustain a leviathan again...although they figured it out their own way in this episode. the show just seems to be a little off with who can live or die recently...making it unclear what the brothers believe in the matter.


    Yeah but now the element of suprise is shot to hell. Better to wait a bit (espeically since they're not killing anymore) and catch them unaware. It's also possible (since she corrected them) that now it won't work becasue she's on guard. The thing is apprently they have to be in the same place with her and do a chant, which gives her plenty of time to fight back while they do that so it's not as simple and you all are making it sound. As for the Amy thing she WOULD have killed agian. Lose her job, kid gets sick again, it's more convient. Once you start down that path you can't just stop and she would have done it again. On the other hand the witches where just messing with each other and having a lover's spat that has passed. They WILL kill again too but not until they have anther spat and in the meantime Sam and Dean can work out a new plan and like I said elsewhere the guy is famous so he won't be hard to track down so it's not an issue for now.


    I think the reason they no longer tried to kill the witch couple is because he saved their lives. That gives them a motive to back off at least temporarily especially as they are a couple again and have stopped killing for now. Witches are sorta human they are not like creatures that kill to survive or are evil per see they can chose to be good in theory. Sam and Dean would probably let a human murderer walk if he saved their lives and posed no immediate risk too imo.



    As for this episode I liked it more than I expected ...great to see Crowley back and having Bobby and the Sheriff made it feel more like an ensemble cast for a change rather than just Sam and Dean eps interspersed with Bobby or Cas centric eps. I love to see a full Scooby gang in action.


    The Liviathan was funny and I kinda like the new cabin as home base.


    Dean's self aware singing was cringe worthy to me i like to see comedy played straight not s that OTT face pulling, it was like watching the gag reel. Other than that and the fact there seems to be no interesting mythology or new recurring characters interacting with Sam and Dean the episode was enjoyable it had brother angst, good kills, cute romance and a genuinley funny monster. I'm still on board despite the previous two sucky episodes and still hope for better things.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [57]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 11/06/09
    • level: 24
    • rank: Golden Girl
    • posts: 5,659
    libra113 wrote:
    WickedNix wrote:

    CharmedOne and dpebbleson...


    Both of you have valid points.


    At times I thinkthe boys have a problem understanding themselves and how they rationalize their decisions. Neither brotherhas a handbook to follow. It's more learn as you go. They are imperfect characters which isconsistent with their actions.


    The show would be boring if their job was a perfect science.

    Yeah, Dean acts from his gut and Sam is cold logic. To add to that they have their own rules and biases (Dean won't kill children, no matter how evil and Sam wants to beleave that you can fight you nature and be good no matter what you are) so yeah their choices can be a bit inconsistant. Welcome to humanity and to shades of grey. Do you always make the same choices when presented with similar but not identical issues? I doubt it. Do you make allowances here and there? I'm sure? Human nature.


    No, my point is not that I'm necessarily right. I think I'm right, of course, otherwise I wouldn't post. My point is also that I don't think you are wrong, Libs or Nix, my point is that you could be wrong, just as I could be wrong as well.

    Where's the freedom of interpretation then, Libs, if you stick to your opinion here and not acknowledge the other side? How can you be so sure you're right? Are you the official critic of the show?

    No offence meant, naturally, I'm just defending my (and other people's) right to disagree and have a chance to be right, just as you have that chance. I don't see point in absolute explanations of the works of fiction, it's no longer fun if you can explain it all in a couple of paragraphs.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [58]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    chrolligal wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    CharmedOneP391 wrote:


    well when the boys tried to kill the witches with the chicken feet and it didnt work, the wife actually told the boys what they did wrong...that they were chilled or something. they couldve tried again..is all im saying. i dont know..im just soley on sams side on this one...he couldve let her go. im assuming theyre gonna bring the witches back or one of them to try and figure out how to sustain a leviathan again...although they figured it out their own way in this episode. the show just seems to be a little off with who can live or die recently...making it unclear what the brothers believe in the matter.


    Yeah but now the element of suprise is shot to hell. Better to wait a bit (espeically since they're not killing anymore) and catch them unaware. It's also possible (since she corrected them) that now it won't work becasue she's on guard. The thing is apprently they have to be in the same place with her and do a chant, which gives her plenty of time to fight back while they do that so it's not as simple and you all are making it sound. As for the Amy thing she WOULD have killed agian. Lose her job, kid gets sick again, it's more convient. Once you start down that path you can't just stop and she would have done it again. On the other hand the witches where just messing with each other and having a lover's spat that has passed. They WILL kill again too but not until they have anther spat and in the meantime Sam and Dean can work out a new plan and like I said elsewhere the guy is famous so he won't be hard to track down so it's not an issue for now.


    I think the reason they no longer tried to kill the witch couple is because he saved their lives. That gives them a motive to back off at least temporarily especially as they are a couple again and have stopped killing for now. Witches are sorta human they are not like creatures that kill to survive or are evil per see they can chose to be good in theory. Sam and Dean would probably let a human murderer walk if he saved their lives and posed no immediate risk too imo.



    As for this episode I liked it more than I expected ...great to see Crowley back and having Bobby and the Sheriff made it feel more like an ensemble cast for a change rather than just Sam and Dean eps interspersed with Bobby or Cas centric eps. I love to see a full Scooby gang in action.


    The Liviathan was funny and I kinda like the new cabin as home base.


    Dean's self aware singing was cringe worthy to me i like to see comedy played straight not s that OTT face pulling, it was like watching the gag reel. Other than that and the fact there seems to be no interesting mythology or new recurring characters interacting with Sam and Dean the episode was enjoyable it had brother angst, good kills, cute romance and a genuinley funny monster. I'm still on board despite the previous two sucky episodes and still hope for better things.

    Yeah, I can get behind the witch stuff. They're not killing for now and the male witch came to their motel and saved them (twice actually if you count removing the coins)so yeah, for now, they're even but if they start killing again then they will deal with that.

    Or like Spiderman said on "Family Guy" 'everyone gets one'
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [59]Oct 31, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    WickedNix wrote:

    CharmedOne and dpebbleson...


    Both of you have valid points.


    At times I thinkthe boys have a problem understanding themselves and how they rationalize their decisions. Neither brotherhas a handbook to follow. It's more learn as you go. They are imperfect characters which isconsistent with their actions.


    The show would be boring if their job was a perfect science.

    Yeah, Dean acts from his gut and Sam is cold logic. To add to that they have their own rules and biases (Dean won't kill children, no matter how evil and Sam wants to beleave that you can fight you nature and be good no matter what you are) so yeah their choices can be a bit inconsistant. Welcome to humanity and to shades of grey. Do you always make the same choices when presented with similar but not identical issues? I doubt it. Do you make allowances here and there? I'm sure? Human nature.


    No, my point is not that I'm necessarily right. I think I'm right, of course, otherwise I wouldn't post. My point is also that I don't think you are wrong, Libs or Nix, my point is that you could be wrong, just as I could be wrong as well.

    Where's the freedom of interpretation then, Libs, if you stick to your opinion here and not acknowledge the other side? How can you be so sure you're right? Are you the official critic of the show?

    No offence meant, naturally, I'm just defending my (and other people's) right to disagree and have a chance to be right, just as you have that chance. I don't see point in absolute explanations of the works of fiction, it's no longer fun if you can explain it all in a couple of paragraphs.
    I'm not saying that at all I'm just giving how I see it. I'm actually suprised that it's an issue given that it fits perfectly with both Sam and Dean's tendencies and natures. It's Sam's nature to want to beleave in the good in people (or near people) and it's Dean's nature to beleave that no one can fight their nature and that eventually they will revert to form. I guess Dean feels that way becasue he had a front row seat to Sam's fall and he has never changed HIS OWN nature very much so he just doesn't beleave that kind of change is possible. In a way Sam is STILL trying to prove it can be done even if he couldn't do it and Dean just doesn't accept it. I guess, in a way, their debate is our debate, just as you described.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of CharmedOneP391

    CharmedOneP391

    [60]Nov 1, 2011
    • member since: 06/10/05
    • level: 19
    • rank: Fall Guy
    • posts: 1,108

    I just think, that if Dean is going to go out of his way to kill Amy, to leave her there with her mourning child staring over her dead body...him & sam could've gone out of there way to try once more to kill those witches.



    I realize that there's probably a reason why the writers left them alive...it just seems that when they leave it alone and dont talk about it again and we're left to just assume that they're all buddy buddy with witches who were just killing innocent people to get back at eachother just makes it seem like the writers dont care who the brothers kill or dont kill as long as its convenient to the story. It was just an off episode...or maybe I'm just still really upset that Dean killed Jewel Staite!

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.