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Official Discussion Thread: Survival of the Fittest (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [41]May 19, 2012
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    Hildetorr wrote:


    Something that confused me is how was Cas able to get his normal personality back when himself and Dean were transported to Purgatory?



    When he was talking in Purgatory that didn't sound like "He is off his rocker" Cas. He looked completely normal when they arrived in Purgatory


    Perhaps the trip cured him. Perhaps he wasn't as 'off his rocker' as he wanted everyone to thing. Perhaps the shock of what was happening snapped him out of it.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [42]May 19, 2012
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    I can agree with the fact that Dean ends up in Purgatory, after Heaven and Hell, it was kinda logical. However, killing the Chief Leviathan bringing them there, hmmm.. funny If I had to think of the reason why, I'd say it was Dick's way of revenge. He's going back and taking them with him. However I don't get it how you kill the Leviathan? If Dick is brought back to the Purgatory then there is a chance of him coming back again in some future... So I see them going around the Purgatory in which Dick hunts them for revenge. Also: Castiel said that it was in Purgatory where monsters pray on each other. So, for example, if one monster kills another in Purgatory, where does its prey go after it's eaten? To Meta-Purgatory? I'm also interested to know whether killed demons go to non-existence or to Purgatory? Also dead angels? Where do they go? Castiel was dead but resuscitated - he must have been somewhere to be brought back from... Also, where does Dean goes if he dies in Purgatory, does his soul get out? Purgatory was very hard to break in, and also hard to break out of it as well. I think Dick was kinda killed too quickly and too easily, he was like a Bond villain. I also think Sam and Dean and Castiel breaking in into a Purgatorial Fortress was way too easy and convenient.
    From what Crowley said (if he was on the level) the transport was a side effect of the weapon. I guess it's the price you pay for using it (everything comes with a price in "Supernatural").


    I assume death in Purgatory is final death. I mean that's the only thing that works unless you can't die and once a monster is prayed on it comes back and the whole thing starts again.


    Perhaps that's how Cas knows so much about Purgatory (other than his time with theLeviathansinside him), perhaps he has some memory of being there before. If everything non-human ends up there then there's no telling who is going to show up to kick Cas and Dean's asses. They have a lot of enemies. I don't expect Dick to be one of them he probably died (since that was the weapon's purpose) but there's plenty more evil to attack them.

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  • Avatar of trans8010

    trans8010

    [43]May 19, 2012
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    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    As for Sam, he is completely alone now - no Bobby, no Dean. will be interesting to see how he goes. I think getting blown back to Purgatory may have helped Cas a bit - he did seem a bit more focussed, I wonder where he went though - clearly teleportation is allowed in Purgatory. so obviously, all the monsters they killed are there - what about the dead angels? do you reckon they will be in there too? if no, where do they go when they die? they must go somewhere - when Raph killed Cas at the end of season 4, he was brought back - from where?





    Sam is not completely alone here, he still has Jody Mills, Charley, and Garth to help him out. As for Jody she's become in her 2 short appearances this year a sort of mother figure for them, or that cool crazy aunt who let's you have cookies for breakfast. I'm sure she'll be helping out Sam in his quest to rescue Dean how many episodes that may be for that. I would like to see at least half a season of the boys apart, strengthen the boys characters for once show a normal non rabid audience that hey they can survive without each other for a little while.

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  • Avatar of RichardCarlso

    RichardCarlso

    [44]May 19, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:

    Hildetorr wrote:


    Something that confused me is how was Cas able to get his normal personality back when himself and Dean were transported to Purgatory?



    When he was talking in Purgatory that didn't sound like "He is off his rocker" Cas. He looked completely normal when they arrived in Purgatory


    Perhaps the trip cured him. Perhaps he wasn't as 'off his rocker' as he wanted everyone to thing. Perhaps the shock of what was happening snapped him out of it.



    We saw flashes of Castiel's normal personality before they wound up in Purgatory, so seeing a glimpse of it in Purgatory wasn't surprising. Cas said to the effect that they will both be (or in danger of being) shredded, so maybe his powers will be extremely limited, or ineffective against the denizens of Purgatory. If he decides to fight, that is.

    1 - It was sad seeing Crowley get his hands on Meg.
    2 - Apparently there are no surviving Archangels to protect Kevin/Prophet like they protected Chuck, or Crowley would have never gotten away with taking him.
    3 - The look on Crowley's face when he realized Cas was insane=priceless.
    4 - The look on Dick's face when Crowley was going into detail about the contract=priceless.
    5 - Glad to see the Impala back! But it looked less "bulkier" than I remembered it being. Maybe thats just because I haven't seen it in such a long time.
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  • Avatar of WCSU1987

    WCSU1987

    [45]May 19, 2012
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    I am going on the assumption that Purgatory is as… when Eve came out she needed a body. When the big L's came out, they needed a body. Possibly, they are souls of monsters in there or once they bite the dust they reincarnate body and soul inside purgatory. I will go with the latter too much thinking involved. With Boy's character was important. That was needed to give the boys information on how to take down the Alpha Lev. However, also shown is dark side, which led to a change in Cas's attitude to help the boy's. With Meg probably will be more from her. Now that there are no more Angels in the story and most of the Alphas are destroyed. All is left is the big D's. Sam on his own. Bobby is gone. Castiel is somewhere in the void. Dean is trapped in Purgatory. The prophet captured by Crowley? What else does the prophet know? Question is now what?

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  • Avatar of RichardCarlso

    RichardCarlso

    [46]May 19, 2012
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    Can't picture Sam driving 'Baby' for half a season. That would drive Dean as batty as Castiel.

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  • Avatar of trans8010

    trans8010

    [47]May 19, 2012
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    dman_dustin wrote:


    Well we assume that every creature God made had a soul (except Angels, and Demons are already souls/ghosts, and ghosts are ghosts), so if we assume that Leviathans have souls, and because they are creatures, well then there is no gaping hole.


    God put the Leviathans in Purgatory. I'm assuming that's like putting a body and soul into heaven or hell. Because the Leviathans were released, they were probably more akin to "Werewolves" than "Angels/Demons" which means the Leviathans were BODY and SOUL.


    Therefore it would make sense that Dick dying meant his soul was sent to purgatory. Which makes sense, after all the only way to separate body and soul typically is to the body, and God didn't do that, he just locked them in a cage.


    But you'd probably argue about how Castiel was able to absorb "body and soul"


    So then I do understand that there is a flaw in the whole Purgatory situation. Assume for a moment that there's a werewolf killed by Sam and Dean and sent to purgatory (it's soul). It would be my understanding if it was released from purgatory (if it could) that it would be the "soul" of the werewolf, and then if it was killed it would be dead permanently, right?


    It is confusing, but backing up to my "how Castiel able to absorb body and soul" well from what we've seen, it almost seems like the Leviathans have a "spirit form" that was released when Castiel exploded in the season premier, which would explain why Castiel was to absorb the "body and soul" but only when "possessing" a body (so far humans), it might make it possible for them to gain the body and soul aspect, therefore if killed, their "soul" should be sent to Purgatory, but maybe a lot more vulnerable.


    Purgatory and the possibility that it's denizens can escape (in comparison to human souls and heaven and hell) is really what makes it all confusing. I don't think we're entirely sure how John managed to escape from hell, and then he merely vanished, and didn't look to "soul-like" especially when we saw Death putting Sam's soul back.


    Come to think of it, I think there's so much wrong with consistency, it's hard to know what's going on in the Supernatural world.




    The Leviathans true form was like that of the X-files and the black oil they absorb into the body and control it or in the case of the Levis (GOD I HATED THAT NICKNAME) assume that form the body has obviously been destroyed, the final product is the new leviathan copy. there's no way a human body could do all of that shapeshift, piranha teeth etc.

    John escaped from hell because he just happened to be underneath the devils gate that opened and he fought his way out. It's not confusing Hell has millions of tortured souls so Hell is a big place, John just happened to be at the right place at the right time. Plus with them I still dont think the parents are in Purgatory. Mary destroyed herself to save her sons in season 1 and John's soul could possibly be in heaven home to 10 billion or so souls there's no way Ash found his way into everyone's heaven in that short time frame he was there. Given how the writers love to retcon everything to fit the current status quo Mary's spirit could very well be alive, and both are there.

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  • Avatar of vampman87

    vampman87

    [48]May 19, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:

    trans8010 wrote:
    RichardCarlso wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:
    Hildetorr wrote:


    Dean trapped in Purgatory I did not see that coming


    The shows writers and producers sure love to hit us with the unexpected.
    He's been to Heaven AND Hell so I guess it was the next stop on his other worlds tour.


    Now Sam gets to spend the summer alone trying to take out what left of the Leviathans and working out just where Dean and Cas went.


    Looks like Purgatory is even worse than Hell, and the most evil end up in Purgatory. Thats going to be a hard sell for the writers. But I'm pleased with the episode and it had a great ending. About the only complaint I had was with how it ended for Bobby. It was a lackluster return for the character, and the show would have been better off not bringing him back at all than just throwing the character under the bus like that.
    I have to agree. Bobby was one of those characters that had more significance to the show than Cas, and while Cas has his chance at redemption Bobby just walks around bitching and moaning. Seriously why did they bring him back if they were not going to utilize his character? Sera has once again proved what she does best is take memorable characters and poorly rub them out. Along with effectively and a damn lazy way of ending the civil war between the Angels, Cas will go nanners and wipe them out, well ok Sera what about the survivors they are still up there without no guidance and what about Raph? I'm pretty sure the Archangel isnt dead Cas just tore in half his meat suit, when Angels die they emit black goo or white light, this didnt happen with Raph, so I guess he's still up there or hiding down here maybe. whatever Sera took that storyline and with one line of dialogue they've been wiped out. The leviathan marched into heaven and killed all the surviving angels? Can they march into heaven? We dont know.
    I doubt it. If Raph was still alive we would know by now. Besides, Raph looked really scared, Cas had a major axe to grind and was pretty much all powerful. I don't see Cas allowing him to live unless he locked Raph up somewhere to slowly and painfully suffer for all eternity.



    From what I've seen, the way to kill an angel (Not including the Leviathan way) is to either stab him with an angel blade or explode him. The only reason why Cas came back after being blown to bits by Raph and Lucifer was because God brought him back both times. Since God (who everyone believes is Chuck) vanished after season 5 and was never heard from again, it's safe to assume that Castiel definitively killed Rafael by blowing up the meatsuit. Look at Raph's face! He (she) was genuinely terrified when Cas raised his hand to blow him up. If destroying the meatsuit was just an inconvenience (Like when his original body got turned to salt) then Raph wouldn't have looked so scared.
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  • Avatar of trans8010

    trans8010

    [49]May 19, 2012
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    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    because that was a ritual specifically to bring out Eve, similar to how someone summons a specific demon.


    the Paulina/Polly arc? what arc? if you count that as an arc, then there's been like 45 million arcs in the 7 seasons thus far. she definitely was not a pre-teen, teenager yes but about Kevin's age I would have thought. the other Leviathans didn't need to see her arm, (or hear her bark like a dog? wtf?), they needed to see her body type which is what they showed. as for why they needed the costume change, well how else was Kevin gonna sneak out of the locked office - the clothing change provided him with the bobby pins. maybe also, they wanted her to look plain, normal girl. that showed the effect of the additive in the food, that she would do whatever she was told.




    If they wanted her to show off the body type of the livestock they could have given her a bathing suit to change in, or better yet just have her show up in the damn bra and panties. They still could have had her move her arm up and down bark like a dog and still get the point across the syrup zombifies them and this new stuff turns her innerds into half and half. Having her change outfits to begin with was still pointless, obviously they wanted to write a brief escape scene for Kevin using bobbie pins. So the dress would have to be written in right? No,Paulina could have very well just had a pin in her hair when she came in, and Kevin removed it. Since she's just a zombie she didn't notice or just didnt care. The whole escape attemptdidnt amount to much in the end. Sure he told Sam to run and destroy the lab, before the Leviathan could mass produce more half n half formula, but Dean and Cas already Bamfed their way in so Kevin's character and the escape was still pointless. write it that way, don't give us an innappropriate scene of her undressing just because you were too lazy to use those other ideas that I just put down.

    If it was a portal to bring something specific out, it certainly was open a hell of a long time and with fire and brimstone no doubt. So what we learn of the Leviathan's hatred for Eve and how she wasn't even considered equal, and with the portal open for that long you are telling me in all that time nothing could escape? Unless the true form could only travel by water that's a bit farfetched. Going back to Purgatory's intial appearance in that episode all fiery and evil, I expected to be well like that, so come to my surprise when Purgatory is a dark damp forest from Harry Potter

    Edited on 05/19/2012 10:46am
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  • Avatar of trans8010

    trans8010

    [50]May 19, 2012
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    vampman87 wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    trans8010 wrote:
    RichardCarlso wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:
    Hildetorr wrote:


    Dean trapped in Purgatory I did not see that coming


    The shows writers and producers sure love to hit us with the unexpected.
    He's been to Heaven AND Hell so I guess it was the next stop on his other worlds tour.


    Now Sam gets to spend the summer alone trying to take out what left of the Leviathans and working out just where Dean and Cas went.


    Looks like Purgatory is even worse than Hell, and the most evil end up in Purgatory. Thats going to be a hard sell for the writers. But I'm pleased with the episode and it had a great ending. About the only complaint I had was with how it ended for Bobby. It was a lackluster return for the character, and the show would have been better off not bringing him back at all than just throwing the character under the bus like that.
    I have to agree. Bobby was one of those characters that had more significance to the show than Cas, and while Cas has his chance at redemption Bobby just walks around bitching and moaning. Seriously why did they bring him back if they were not going to utilize his character? Sera has once again proved what she does best is take memorable characters and poorly rub them out. Along with effectively and a damn lazy way of ending the civil war between the Angels, Cas will go nanners and wipe them out, well ok Sera what about the survivors they are still up there without no guidance and what about Raph? I'm pretty sure the Archangel isnt dead Cas just tore in half his meat suit, when Angels die they emit black goo or white light, this didnt happen with Raph, so I guess he's still up there or hiding down here maybe. whatever Sera took that storyline and with one line of dialogue they've been wiped out. The leviathan marched into heaven and killed all the surviving angels? Can they march into heaven? We dont know.
    I doubt it. If Raph was still alive we would know by now. Besides, Raph looked really scared, Cas had a major axe to grind and was pretty much all powerful. I don't see Cas allowing him to live unless he locked Raph up somewhere to slowly and painfully suffer for all eternity.


    From what I've seen, the way to kill an angel (Not including the Leviathan way) is to either stab him with an angel blade or explode him. The only reason why Cas came back after being blown to bits by Raph and Lucifer was because God brought him back both times. Since God (who everyone believes is Chuck) vanished after season 5 and was never heard from again, it's safe to assume that Castiel definitively killed Rafael by blowing up the meatsuit. Look at Raph's face! He (she) was genuinely terrified when Cas raised his hand to blow him up. If destroying the meatsuit was just an inconvenience (Like when his original body got turned to salt) then Raph wouldn't have looked so scared.


    Even then that doesnt make any sense, Raph had his meat suit destroyed before when Balthazar turned him into a salt pillar. So that doesn't kill an Angel but exploding does when in both instances the vessel has been destroyed. I know Balthazar or whoever said that he'll be back soonce again it's easy to assume that if Salt couldn't kill him which was a weapon of god, then a souped up angel could. Now grantedthe leviathan were a bit more tougher so God locked them up as he couldn't destroy them, then if that was true who the hell came up with that method when casting the Word of God Tablet? Certainly that needs explaining also.

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  • Avatar of trans8010

    trans8010

    [51]May 19, 2012
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    The only good thing to come out of season 7 is Sera Gamble's exit! Thank GOD err Chuck! The best news Season 8 will be helmed by Jeremy Carver the man is responsible for a lot of the great characters mythology and damn some of his stories are in the top favs of every fan's top 10 list. A Very Supernatural Christmas, Mystery Spot, In the Beginning, Free to Be You and Me, Dead Men Dont Wear Plaid and some others face it the man has not yet written a bad episode, unlike Sera who seems to write terrible episodes people like to think are good. She can't write male characters convincingly and her female characters are stereotypes, and a lot of her episodes end up having a bunch of characters killed for no damn good reason. Case in Point Cas, and Bobby.

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    mynameisjohnas

    [52]May 19, 2012
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    dpebbleson wrote:


    I can agree with the fact that Dean ends up in Purgatory, after Heaven and Hell, it was kinda logical.


    However, killing the Chief Leviathan bringing them there, hmmm.. funny If I had to think of the reason why, I'd say it was Dick's way of revenge. He's going back and taking them with him.



    On that subject I sort of wonder if something was hidden from the audience between the time when Dick exploded and when Dean and Cas were sent to Purgatory- sort of in the way Cas kept off screen from us when Sam returned at the end of season 5. If you watch it closely, all that happens is Dick explodes all over Dean and Cas. While I did like the "pulsing" effects of Roman's death, it seems to me that it would have made more sense for him to have exploded and then quickly imploded (sort of like the head fairy did in season 6 where he was sucked in somewhere) so as to explain Cas and Dean being sucked into/sent to purgatory.


    dpebbleson wrote:


    Also: Castiel said that it was in Purgatory where monsters pray on each other. So, for example, if one monster kills another in Purgatory, where does its prey go after it's eaten? To Meta-Purgatory? I'm also interested to know whether killed demons go to non-existence or to Purgatory? Also dead angels? Where do they go?



    Awesome questions. They're ones I've been wondering for years now and hopefully sending Dean and Cas to Purgatory will finally help answer some of them. Cas did say they'd be torn to shreds, but he didn't say anything about dying. I guess it depends how similar or different Purgatory is to Heaven and Hell. It seems to me that in Hell one's soul can't die because it kind of flies in the face of the whole "eternity of damnation" thing. However, when it comes to Heaven, I think there is some grey area. We know from season 6 where Castiel used Bobby's soul as an energy source, and from Castiel's use of Crowley's 50,000 souls, that souls are made up of energy- energy that can, at the very least, be harnessed by angels. Since the power of those ruling Heaven and Hell seems to be determined by how many souls are in one another, it raises the question of what happens to those souls when they are harnessed for said energy.


    Anyways, since we know nothing about the nature of Purgatory, save for the fact that like demons in Hell, no one there seems to really like it much, it's hard to speculate.


    As far as angels go, do they even have souls to begin with? It's another great question. If God created Leviathan with souls, and humans with souls after he created angels, one could argue that it stands to reason that angels would have souls of a sort as well.



    Edited on 05/19/2012 11:34am
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    gatoraderising

    [53]May 19, 2012
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    trans8010 wrote:

    vampman87 wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    trans8010 wrote:
    RichardCarlso wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:
    Hildetorr wrote:


    Dean trapped in Purgatory I did not see that coming


    The shows writers and producers sure love to hit us with the unexpected.
    He's been to Heaven AND Hell so I guess it was the next stop on his other worlds tour.


    Now Sam gets to spend the summer alone trying to take out what left of the Leviathans and working out just where Dean and Cas went.


    Looks like Purgatory is even worse than Hell, and the most evil end up in Purgatory. Thats going to be a hard sell for the writers. But I'm pleased with the episode and it had a great ending. About the only complaint I had was with how it ended for Bobby. It was a lackluster return for the character, and the show would have been better off not bringing him back at all than just throwing the character under the bus like that.
    I have to agree. Bobby was one of those characters that had more significance to the show than Cas, and while Cas has his chance at redemption Bobby just walks around bitching and moaning. Seriously why did they bring him back if they were not going to utilize his character? Sera has once again proved what she does best is take memorable characters and poorly rub them out. Along with effectively and a damn lazy way of ending the civil war between the Angels, Cas will go nanners and wipe them out, well ok Sera what about the survivors they are still up there without no guidance and what about Raph? I'm pretty sure the Archangel isnt dead Cas just tore in half his meat suit, when Angels die they emit black goo or white light, this didnt happen with Raph, so I guess he's still up there or hiding down here maybe. whatever Sera took that storyline and with one line of dialogue they've been wiped out. The leviathan marched into heaven and killed all the surviving angels? Can they march into heaven? We dont know.
    I doubt it. If Raph was still alive we would know by now. Besides, Raph looked really scared, Cas had a major axe to grind and was pretty much all powerful. I don't see Cas allowing him to live unless he locked Raph up somewhere to slowly and painfully suffer for all eternity.


    From what I've seen, the way to kill an angel (Not including the Leviathan way) is to either stab him with an angel blade or explode him. The only reason why Cas came back after being blown to bits by Raph and Lucifer was because God brought him back both times. Since God (who everyone believes is Chuck) vanished after season 5 and was never heard from again, it's safe to assume that Castiel definitively killed Rafael by blowing up the meatsuit. Look at Raph's face! He (she) was genuinely terrified when Cas raised his hand to blow him up. If destroying the meatsuit was just an inconvenience (Like when his original body got turned to salt) then Raph wouldn't have looked so scared.


    Even then that doesnt make any sense, Raph had his meat suit destroyed before when Balthazar turned him into a salt pillar. So that doesn't kill an Angel but exploding does when in both instances the vessel has been destroyed. I know Balthazar or whoever said that he'll be back soonce again it's easy to assume that if Salt couldn't kill him which was a weapon of god, then a souped up angel could. Now grantedthe leviathan were a bit more tougher so God locked them up as he couldn't destroy them, then if that was true who the hell came up with that method when casting the Word of God Tablet? Certainly that needs explaining also.



    See the salt pillar only killed Raph's vessels not Raph himself. When Cas snaped his fingers turning Raph into soup he killed both Raph and his vessel. Plus in "supernatural" theres only a certain number of ways to kill something. God locked up the Leviathan in Purgatory not because he couldnt kill them but because if he didnt they would have killed everything he made after them.
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    randomjean

    [54]May 19, 2012
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    wasnt the flask that Bobby was tied to has some parts which are brown?

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [55]May 19, 2012
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    trans8010 wrote:


    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    As for Sam, he is completely alone now - no Bobby, no Dean. will be interesting to see how he goes. I think getting blown back to Purgatory may have helped Cas a bit - he did seem a bit more focussed, I wonder where he went though - clearly teleportation is allowed in Purgatory. so obviously, all the monsters they killed are there - what about the dead angels? do you reckon they will be in there too? if no, where do they go when they die? they must go somewhere - when Raph killed Cas at the end of season 4, he was brought back - from where?





    Sam is not completely alone here, he still has Jody Mills, Charley, and Garth to help him out. As for Jody she's become in her 2 short appearances this year a sort of mother figure for them, or that cool crazy aunt who let's you have cookies for breakfast. I'm sure she'll be helping out Sam in his quest to rescue Dean how many episodes that may be for that. I would like to see at least half a season of the boys apart, strengthen the boys characters for once show a normal non rabid audience that hey they can survive without each other for a little while.


    Charley's in hiding and told them not to find her, I doubt that will change. Of course theLeviathansare broken and her job on "Eureka" is over so....

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [56]May 19, 2012
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    trans8010 wrote:


    dman_dustin wrote:


    Well we assume that every creature God made had a soul (except Angels, and Demons are already souls/ghosts, and ghosts are ghosts), so if we assume that Leviathans have souls, and because they are creatures, well then there is no gaping hole.


    God put the Leviathans in Purgatory. I'm assuming that's like putting a body and soul into heaven or hell. Because the Leviathans were released, they were probably more akin to "Werewolves" than "Angels/Demons" which means the Leviathans were BODY and SOUL.


    Therefore it would make sense that Dick dying meant his soul was sent to purgatory. Which makes sense, after all the only way to separate body and soul typically is to the body, and God didn't do that, he just locked them in a cage.


    But you'd probably argue about how Castiel was able to absorb "body and soul"


    So then I do understand that there is a flaw in the whole Purgatory situation. Assume for a moment that there's a werewolf killed by Sam and Dean and sent to purgatory (it's soul). It would be my understanding if it was released from purgatory (if it could) that it would be the "soul" of the werewolf, and then if it was killed it would be dead permanently, right?


    It is confusing, but backing up to my "how Castiel able to absorb body and soul" well from what we've seen, it almost seems like the Leviathans have a "spirit form" that was released when Castiel exploded in the season premier, which would explain why Castiel was to absorb the "body and soul" but only when "possessing" a body (so far humans), it might make it possible for them to gain the body and soul aspect, therefore if killed, their "soul" should be sent to Purgatory, but maybe a lot more vulnerable.


    Purgatory and the possibility that it's denizens can escape (in comparison to human souls and heaven and hell) is really what makes it all confusing. I don't think we're entirely sure how John managed to escape from hell, and then he merely vanished, and didn't look to "soul-like" especially when we saw Death putting Sam's soul back.


    Come to think of it, I think there's so much wrong with consistency, it's hard to know what's going on in the Supernatural world.




    The Leviathans true form was like that of the X-files and the black oil they absorb into the body and control it or in the case of the Levis (GOD I HATED THAT NICKNAME) assume that form the body has obviously been destroyed, the final product is the new leviathan copy. there's no way a human body could do all of that shapeshift, piranha teeth etc.

    John escaped from hell because he just happened to be underneath the devils gate that opened and he fought his way out. It's not confusing Hell has millions of tortured souls so Hell is a big place, John just happened to be at the right place at the right time. Plus with them I still dont think the parents are in Purgatory. Mary destroyed herself to save her sons in season 1 and John's soul could possibly be in heaven home to 10 billion or so souls there's no way Ash found his way into everyone's heaven in that short time frame he was there. Given how the writers love to retcon everything to fit the current status quo Mary's spirit could very well be alive, and both are there.


    John didn't 'just happen' to be in the right place. He told Yellow Eyes before they made their deal that he knew the whole plan and had know it for some time so presumably he KNEW where to be and about when to be there. It was planned.


    Again, there would be no point in having Ash say he couldn't find Mary or John in Heaven if it didn't mean they were going to show up at some point. You don't just put something like that out there and forget about it. Besides there have been hints for awhile thatMissouriwas wrong and Mary wasn'tdestroyed, not to mention a destroyed ghost WOULD likely go toPurgatoryrather than just no longerexist.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [58]May 19, 2012
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388

    trans8010 wrote:


    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    because that was a ritual specifically to bring out Eve, similar to how someone summons a specific demon.


    the Paulina/Polly arc? what arc? if you count that as an arc, then there's been like 45 million arcs in the 7 seasons thus far. she definitely was not a pre-teen, teenager yes but about Kevin's age I would have thought. the other Leviathans didn't need to see her arm, (or hear her bark like a dog? wtf?), they needed to see her body type which is what they showed. as for why they needed the costume change, well how else was Kevin gonna sneak out of the locked office - the clothing change provided him with the bobby pins. maybe also, they wanted her to look plain, normal girl. that showed the effect of the additive in the food, that she would do whatever she was told.




    If they wanted her to show off the body type of the livestock they could have given her a bathing suit to change in, or better yet just have her show up in the damn bra and panties. They still could have had her move her arm up and down bark like a dog and still get the point across the syrup zombifies them and this new stuff turns her innerds into half and half. Having her change outfits to begin with was still pointless, obviously they wanted to write a brief escape scene for Kevin using bobbie pins. So the dress would have to be written in right? No,Paulina could have very well just had a pin in her hair when she came in, and Kevin removed it. Since she's just a zombie she didn't notice or just didnt care. The whole escape attemptdidnt amount to much in the end. Sure he told Sam to run and destroy the lab, before the Leviathan could mass produce more half n half formula, but Dean and Cas already Bamfed their way in so Kevin's character and the escape was still pointless. write it that way, don't give us an innappropriate scene of her undressing just because you were too lazy to use those other ideas that I just put down.

    If it was a portal to bring something specific out, it certainly was open a hell of a long time and with fire and brimstone no doubt. So what we learn of the Leviathan's hatred for Eve and how she wasn't even considered equal, and with the portal open for that long you are telling me in all that time nothing could escape? Unless the true form could only travel by water that's a bit farfetched. Going back to Purgatory's intial appearance in that episode all fiery and evil, I expected to be well like that, so come to my surprise when Purgatory is a dark damp forest from Harry Potter


    There was nothinginappropriateabout that scene you're just being too sensitive. Leviathansee humans as cattle and they're not going to care if the person is naked, nearly necked or what age they are. They're just cattle.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [59]May 19, 2012
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388

    trans8010 wrote:


    vampman87 wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    trans8010 wrote:
    RichardCarlso wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:
    Hildetorr wrote:


    Dean trapped in Purgatory I did not see that coming


    The shows writers and producers sure love to hit us with the unexpected.
    He's been to Heaven AND Hell so I guess it was the next stop on his other worlds tour.


    Now Sam gets to spend the summer alone trying to take out what left of the Leviathans and working out just where Dean and Cas went.


    Looks like Purgatory is even worse than Hell, and the most evil end up in Purgatory. Thats going to be a hard sell for the writers. But I'm pleased with the episode and it had a great ending. About the only complaint I had was with how it ended for Bobby. It was a lackluster return for the character, and the show would have been better off not bringing him back at all than just throwing the character under the bus like that.
    I have to agree. Bobby was one of those characters that had more significance to the show than Cas, and while Cas has his chance at redemption Bobby just walks around bitching and moaning. Seriously why did they bring him back if they were not going to utilize his character? Sera has once again proved what she does best is take memorable characters and poorly rub them out. Along with effectively and a damn lazy way of ending the civil war between the Angels, Cas will go nanners and wipe them out, well ok Sera what about the survivors they are still up there without no guidance and what about Raph? I'm pretty sure the Archangel isnt dead Cas just tore in half his meat suit, when Angels die they emit black goo or white light, this didnt happen with Raph, so I guess he's still up there or hiding down here maybe. whatever Sera took that storyline and with one line of dialogue they've been wiped out. The leviathan marched into heaven and killed all the surviving angels? Can they march into heaven? We dont know.
    I doubt it. If Raph was still alive we would know by now. Besides, Raph looked really scared, Cas had a major axe to grind and was pretty much all powerful. I don't see Cas allowing him to live unless he locked Raph up somewhere to slowly and painfully suffer for all eternity.


    From what I've seen, the way to kill an angel (Not including the Leviathan way) is to either stab him with an angel blade or explode him. The only reason why Cas came back after being blown to bits by Raph and Lucifer was because God brought him back both times. Since God (who everyone believes is Chuck) vanished after season 5 and was never heard from again, it's safe to assume that Castiel definitively killed Rafael by blowing up the meatsuit. Look at Raph's face! He (she) was genuinely terrified when Cas raised his hand to blow him up. If destroying the meatsuit was just an inconvenience (Like when his original body got turned to salt) then Raph wouldn't have looked so scared.


    Even then that doesnt make any sense, Raph had his meat suit destroyed before when Balthazar turned him into a salt pillar. So that doesn't kill an Angel but exploding does when in both instances the vessel has been destroyed. I know Balthazar or whoever said that he'll be back soonce again it's easy to assume that if Salt couldn't kill him which was a weapon of god, then a souped up angel could. Now grantedthe leviathan were a bit more tougher so God locked them up as he couldn't destroy them, then if that was true who the hell came up with that method when casting the Word of God Tablet? Certainly that needs explaining also.


    Why does everyone assume thatbecauseGod didn't destroy the Leviathans that he can't. Not doing something and not being able to do something are not the same thing and until a character who's in apositionto know what they're talking about said he couldn't I'm going with just didn't choose to.


    As for Raph, Cas wasn't an angle anymore he was the new God. If he decides to kill an angel by blowing them up ,he does. Besides IF Raph was still alive he would have made a move by now (especiallyin the time since the angles learned Cas was still alive). He's dead and gone.

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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [60]May 19, 2012
    • member since: 05/02/08
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 121

    libra113 wrote:
    You would really want to watch Bobby writhe and suffer while burning. I was actually glad we didn't have to see that. Besides with what we have seen we can imagine it much better and the reactions of Sam, Dean and Cas were more important than seeing that.


    Want to? No. But then again, while I don't want anything bad to happen to the characters I appreciate, it does add an extra shade of texture to the story when you actually see something occur. It's like when Michael killed Anna or certain deaths in Game of Thrones. Did I want to Anna killed the way she was or see some of my favorite characters beheaded? Of course not. But the fact that they showed it adds to the intensity of the shows. Same thing goes for Bobby here. I certainly didn't want to see him go, but if he's going to anyways, I'd prefer that they not sugar coat it. That being said, however, I will give you that the reactions of Dean, Sam, and Cas were probably more important in the grand scheme of things. I just wouldn't have minded seeing both.

    Edited on 05/19/2012 12:16pm
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