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Official Discussion Thread: Survival of the Fittest (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of lachlan_j_g

    lachlan_j_g

    [81]May 19, 2012
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    RichardCarlso wrote:


    Define everyone. Castiel said Chuck was a Prophet of the Lord,,,not the Lord.


    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    again, you need to watch the final episode of season 5 where a very relaxed Chuck (completely different to his normal character traits) finishes his drink, smiles and then vanishes. prophets don't do that. the evidence that he was God is incontrovertible.


    RichardCarlso wrote:
    It could be that the task God had for him was finished and God simply removed him. Just because he smiles and disappears doesn't mean he was God.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxIybIuNplg less than 30 seconds in. need any more evidence?

    Edited on 05/19/2012 8:35pm
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  • Avatar of RichardCarlso

    RichardCarlso

    [82]May 19, 2012
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    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    RichardCarlso wrote:


    Define everyone. Castiel said Chuck was a Prophet of the Lord,,,not the Lord.


    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    again, you need to watch the final episode of season 5 where a very relaxed Chuck (completely different to his normal character traits) finishes his drink, smiles and then vanishes. prophets don't do that. the evidence that he was God is incontrovertible.


    RichardCarlso wrote:
    It could be that the task God had for him was finished and God simply removed him. Just because he smiles and disappears doesn't mean he was God.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxIybIuNplg less than 30 seconds in. need any more evidence?



    He said that his character was SORT OF like God,,,he didn't say his character WAS God.
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  • Avatar of RichardCarlso

    RichardCarlso

    [83]May 19, 2012
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    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    RichardCarlso wrote:


    Define everyone. Castiel said Chuck was a Prophet of the Lord,,,not the Lord.


    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    again, you need to watch the final episode of season 5 where a very relaxed Chuck (completely different to his normal character traits) finishes his drink, smiles and then vanishes. prophets don't do that. the evidence that he was God is incontrovertible.


    RichardCarlso wrote:
    It could be that the task God had for him was finished and God simply removed him. Just because he smiles and disappears doesn't mean he was God.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxIybIuNplg less than 30 seconds in. need any more evidence?



    SPN is a master of misdirection. Luring the audience into believing Chuck was actually God would be exactly the sort of thing SPN would do.
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  • Avatar of Tyrathius

    Tyrathius

    [84]May 19, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    CrazyAsian1080 wrote:


    You can really tell the first 5 seasons were one over arching story and there was a clear plan. Each season final made sense, was exciting and led to the next season while still being part of the over all story. Season 6 and Season 7 both do not do this. Season 6 was MOTHER MOTHER MOTHER!!! Oh, wait we are just going to kill her off in 5 minutes 2/3 of the way through and it's all about Cas and Crowl, duh duh duh!!! Season 7 was even moreanticlimactic. UNKILLABLE SUPER EVIL BADDY, well I guess we will just stab him in the neck with a bone. Oh look, since we know we have another season DEAN IS NOW IN PURG AND SAM IS ALONG DUH DUH DUH!!!


    Just when I thought everyone understood and accepted that Mother was an intentional misdirection all along. I guess some people never will. Nothing is unkillable it's just a matter of working out HOW and without that tablet AND someone to read it they would never have done that.



    I think that's what people took issue with. She was a misdirection that got a lot more buildup and screentime than the actual big bad Castiel, whose war with Raphael was, until the last few episodes of the season, a subplot. Everything in the earlier parts of the season was building up to Eve, but then they off her before she really gets to do anything and suddenly everything is about Cas and Crowley.


    If they'd picked one plot and stuck with it they probably could have done great, but they tried to do both and as a result neither came out particularly interesting.

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  • Avatar of CrazyAsian1080

    CrazyAsian1080

    [85]May 20, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    Just when I thought everyone understood and accepted that Mother was an intentional misdirection all along. I guess some people never will. Nothing is unkillable it's just a matter of working out HOW and without that tablet AND someone to read it they would never have done that.



    I get Mother was a red herring. I also liked a lot of the stuff they did with the season. 'The man who would be king' is one of my favourite episodes and soulless Sam was amazing. However, they held off on the twist a bit too long. It should have happened sooner because as it stands it really felt like they had these two really great story lines but they couldn't figure out which one to write so they both and air them at random. The whole Death and monsters hinting at something bigger going on was good, but it was TOO subtle and sometimes 3-4 eps went by that was only MOTHER MOTHER MOTHER. It was just an awkward shift and came a bit late so they couldn't develop the other story very well at the end in my opinion.


    Season 7's ending was just blah. It was one of those ending where the show knows it will be back so lets just set up for next season.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [86]May 20, 2012
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    Tyrathius wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    CrazyAsian1080 wrote:


    You can really tell the first 5 seasons were one over arching story and there was a clear plan. Each season final made sense, was exciting and led to the next season while still being part of the over all story. Season 6 and Season 7 both do not do this. Season 6 was MOTHER MOTHER MOTHER!!! Oh, wait we are just going to kill her off in 5 minutes 2/3 of the way through and it's all about Cas and Crowl, duh duh duh!!! Season 7 was even moreanticlimactic. UNKILLABLE SUPER EVIL BADDY, well I guess we will just stab him in the neck with a bone. Oh look, since we know we have another season DEAN IS NOW IN PURG AND SAM IS ALONG DUH DUH DUH!!!


    Just when I thought everyone understood and accepted that Mother was an intentional misdirection all along. I guess some people never will. Nothing is unkillable it's just a matter of working out HOW and without that tablet AND someone to read it they would never have done that.



    I think that's what people took issue with. She was a misdirection that got a lot more buildup and screentime than the actual big bad Castiel, whose war with Raphael was, until the last few episodes of the season, a subplot. Everything in the earlier parts of the season was building up to Eve, but then they off her before she really gets to do anything and suddenly everything is about Cas and Crowley.


    If they'd picked one plot and stuck with it they probably could have done great, but they tried to do both and as a result neither came out particularly interesting.


    It wouldn't exactly be a misdirect if they did it any other way. If they had made it all about Cas and what he was doing then, of course, we would have known Mother was a misdirect. It was really the only way to do it.

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  • Avatar of RichardCarlso

    RichardCarlso

    [87]May 20, 2012
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    I wonder if Castiel and Dean were killed in the process of being sucked into Purgatory, and only their spirits are there. Purgatory is a spirit realm, like Heaven and Hell, so I doubt physical bodies could exist in it. In the ep where Sam and Dean went to Heaven, their physical bodies were killed first. Before Dean went to Hell, his physical body was killed by the hell hounds.

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    trans8010

    [88]May 20, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    John didn't 'just happen' to be in the right place. He told Yellow Eyes before they made their deal that he knew the whole plan and had know it for some time so presumably he KNEW where to be and about when to be there. It was planned.


    Again, there would be no point in having Ash say he couldn't find Mary or John in Heaven if it didn't mean they were going to show up at some point. You don't just put something like that out there and forget about it. Besides there have been hints for awhile thatMissouriwas wrong and Mary wasn'tdestroyed, not to mention a destroyed ghost WOULD likely go toPurgatoryrather than just no longerexist.




    I know this, however assuming that John did know where Yellow Eyes was going with his plan, how could he have possibly known exactly when the gate was going to open? Also given that Alistair himself tortured John for 100 years in Hell time, everyday he would rack him up and slice him to ribbons, when did John ever have the chance to escape, and find his way to the devils gate? If so how would he have known where the opening was going to be once down in the pit? One thing that could explain this once John wouldn't break, they simply let him go once Dean punched his ticket on the one way, they didnt need John anymore though and they simply told him where the gate would be, that would be dumb too, why would a Demon let go of John for his son, torturing daddy would have made Dean break easier.

    Ok here's a show that dropped at least one whole plot line in favor of another without any satisfying conclusion, the Angel Civil War ends abruptly and all those weapons of heaven that Cas and Balthazar had been collecting dropped retconned for this miserable leviathan plot, that face it went nowhere. Balthazar if you can remember was hired by Cas to round up all the weapons of heaven so he could use them in his fight against Raphael. We even had two stand alone episodes that focused on them. Well after a while now it's souls that Cas needs not weapons. Maybe Raph's forces were too strong for weapons or whatever it's not explained just time to focus on this new plan. The souls, now in "the Man Who Would Be King" Cas reveals in flashback that he was working for the souls the ENTIRE time. So that whole weapons arc totally f-ing useless. So if this Angel war weapon plot was dropped then so can John and Mary. It's not that Sam and Dean are on a quest to find their parents souls or anything. Most fans probably had forgotten them unless they rewatch the episodes constantly, to me I dont really care much what happened to them, if they show up in Purgatory that's cool another story resolved if not I wouldnt lose any sleep about it.

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  • Avatar of trans8010

    trans8010

    [89]May 20, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    There was nothinginappropriateabout that scene you're just being too sensitive. Leviathansee humans as cattle and they're not going to care if the person is naked, nearly necked or what age they are. They're just cattle.




    No I'm not sensitive. I even said I would have thought the scene better if she were in a bikini or her bra and panties, there was really no reason for her to change clothes from pink to brown, to make that scene effective. If they thought of her as cattle who cares what she looked like or was dressed as. IT was only written as an excuse to give Kevin something to escape with and find out the leviathan's half n half formula, which as I said was pointless, because when Sam rescued him and they ran to the lab, where the formula is Dean and Cas were already there for the final showdown. Ok now take into account Kevin had no idea Dick was in the lab at that time, the dress portion still a waste of paper it was printed on. Kevin was in a office and offices have paper clips, lots of them ever occur to him to use a paper clip, also Sera could have written Paulina so the bobby pin was in her hair so once again the changing of her dress bit still uneccesary especially if the Leviathan thought of her only as cattle.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [90]May 20, 2012
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    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I wonder if Castiel and Dean were killed in the process of being sucked into Purgatory, and only their spirits are there. Purgatory is a spirit realm, like Heaven and Hell, so I doubt physical bodies could exist in it. In the ep where Sam and Dean went to Heaven, their physical bodies were killed first. Before Dean went to Hell, his physical body was killed by the hell hounds.


    Sam when into the cage (which is somewhere in Hell) both body and soul so it's possible to travel there physical. Don't know how (if at all) that changes things but I guess we're going to see.

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    libra113

    [91]May 20, 2012
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    trans8010 wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    John didn't 'just happen' to be in the right place. He told Yellow Eyes before they made their deal that he knew the whole plan and had know it for some time so presumably he KNEW where to be and about when to be there. It was planned.


    Again, there would be no point in having Ash say he couldn't find Mary or John in Heaven if it didn't mean they were going to show up at some point. You don't just put something like that out there and forget about it. Besides there have been hints for awhile thatMissouriwas wrong and Mary wasn'tdestroyed, not to mention a destroyed ghost WOULD likely go toPurgatoryrather than just no longerexist.




    I know this, however assuming that John did know where Yellow Eyes was going with his plan, how could he have possibly known exactly when the gate was going to open? Also given that Alistair himself tortured John for 100 years in Hell time, everyday he would rack him up and slice him to ribbons, when did John ever have the chance to escape, and find his way to the devils gate? If so how would he have known where the opening was going to be once down in the pit? One thing that could explain this once John wouldn't break, they simply let him go once Dean punched his ticket on the one way, they didnt need John anymore though and they simply told him where the gate would be, that would be dumb too, why would a Demon let go of John for his son, torturing daddy would have made Dean break easier.

    Ok here's a show that dropped at least one whole plot line in favor of another without any satisfying conclusion, the Angel Civil War ends abruptly and all those weapons of heaven that Cas and Balthazar had been collecting dropped retconned for this miserable leviathan plot, that face it went nowhere. Balthazar if you can remember was hired by Cas to round up all the weapons of heaven so he could use them in his fight against Raphael. We even had two stand alone episodes that focused on them. Well after a while now it's souls that Cas needs not weapons. Maybe Raph's forces were too strong for weapons or whatever it's not explained just time to focus on this new plan. The souls, now in "the Man Who Would Be King" Cas reveals in flashback that he was working for the souls the ENTIRE time. So that whole weapons arc totally f-ing useless. So if this Angel war weapon plot was dropped then so can John and Mary. It's not that Sam and Dean are on a quest to find their parents souls or anything. Most fans probably had forgotten them unless they rewatch the episodes constantly, to me I dont really care much what happened to them, if they show up in Purgatory that's cool another story resolved if not I wouldnt lose any sleep about it.


    Obviouslyyou've forgotten howdeterminedand resourceful John could be (not to mention just plain old stubborn). He said he knew everything I take him that and I wouldn't besurprisedif he knew enough to know how to escape and where the opening was going to be. Timing would be hard but given how often we've seen and heard how good John was at his work I wouldn't besurprisedif he could work that out as well. In any case, mere chance is so unlikely as not even be a serious option and I don't see the demons letting him go, or changing their minds on breaking him under anycircumstances(why wait a year and not even try to break the guy you have now). So it's pretty certain he escaped, knew roughly where the gate was and was able to hide out and wait his chance.


    Clearly, Cas sent Balthazar on that quest to keep him busy and prevent him from working out what was really going, exactly the same way he allowed Sam, Dean and Bobby (and even encouraged them) topursueMother, keep them busy so they wouldn't work out what's really going on. He couldn't have them all just going about doing whatever and risk them stumbling onto the truth.


    I can't image a fan of this show just forgetting about John and Mary. You bust out a revelation like 'they're not in Heaven' you better have a story to back it up or you're going to hear about it down the road.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [92]May 20, 2012
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    trans8010 wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    There was nothinginappropriateabout that scene you're just being too sensitive. Leviathansee humans as cattle and they're not going to care if the person is naked, nearly necked or what age they are. They're just cattle.




    No I'm not sensitive. I even said I would have thought the scene better if she were in a bikini or her bra and panties, there was really no reason for her to change clothes from pink to brown, to make that scene effective. If they thought of her as cattle who cares what she looked like or was dressed as. IT was only written as an excuse to give Kevin something to escape with and find out the leviathan's half n half formula, which as I said was pointless, because when Sam rescued him and they ran to the lab, where the formula is Dean and Cas were already there for the final showdown. Ok now take into account Kevin had no idea Dick was in the lab at that time, the dress portion still a waste of paper it was printed on. Kevin was in a office and offices have paper clips, lots of them ever occur to him to use a paper clip, also Sera could have written Paulina so the bobby pin was in her hair so once again the changing of her dress bit still uneccesary especially if the Leviathan thought of her only as cattle.


    Really don't see thedifferencebetween what they did and what you're suggesting. She changed clothes. So what? Sounds like nitpicking really.

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    trans8010

    [93]May 20, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    Why does everyone assume thatbecauseGod didn't destroy the Leviathans that he can't. Not doing something and not being able to do something are not the same thing and until a character who's in apositionto know what they're talking about said he couldn't I'm going with just didn't choose to.


    As for Raph, Cas wasn't an angle anymore he was the new God. If he decides to kill an angel by blowing them up ,he does. Besides IF Raph was still alive he would have made a move by now (especiallyin the time since the angles learned Cas was still alive). He's dead and gone.




    Was it stated somewhere this season that God could not destroy the Leviathan and that's the reason why he built purgatory? I could be wrong but I thought it was said somewhere. OPnce again if wrong I apologize for the error

    Cas was still an Angel, he just had a hell of a lot of Power from the Leviathans and the other souls of Purgatory. Death said so himself Cas was not a god. Ok take this into account Raph and Cas were scrambling to find heaven's arsenal, whoever had the most weapons won the war, he even chased the boys throughout parallel universes to grab the key that would open the door the weapons were s tored in. At least that's what Raph thought. Prior to that Raph's former vessel was disintegrated into salt. Now it's been said the only way to kill an angel is with the blade, or by destroying the meat suit. It was also assumed that the weapons could kill Angels, why else would Raph want them so badly? So given that Raph was disintegrated by one of these weapons how is it he lived yet when his other meat suit was destroyed he died? I dont get that. It's a huge hole. Raphael was second in command along side Michael and he's one of the few who has seen God, so if that's true God could have told the few who have seen him Lucifer, Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel about the Leviathan's destructive nature and had he survived the second meat suit's demise he could have very well had laid low till the heat wore off.

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    trans8010

    [94]May 20, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    Obviouslyyou've forgotten howdeterminedand resourceful John could be (not to mention just plain old stubborn). He said he knew everything I take him that and I wouldn't besurprisedif he knew enough to know how to escape and where the opening was going to be. Timing would be hard but given how often we've seen and heard how good John was at his work I wouldn't besurprisedif he could work that out as well. In any case, mere chance is so unlikely as not even be a serious option and I don't see the demons letting him go, or changing their minds on breaking him under anycircumstances(why wait a year and not even try to break the guy you have now). So it's pretty certain he escaped, knew roughly where the gate was and was able to hide out and wait his chance.


    Clearly, Cas sent Balthazar on that quest to keep him busy and prevent him from working out what was really going, exactly the same way he allowed Sam, Dean and Bobby (and even encouraged them) topursueMother, keep them busy so they wouldn't work out what's really going on. He couldn't have them all just going about doing whatever and risk them stumbling onto the truth.


    I can't image a fan of this show just forgetting about John and Mary. You bust out a revelation like 'they're not in Heaven' you better have a story to back it up or you're going to hear about it down the road.




    So John escapes ok I'll buy that we've seen Sam and Dean evade capture and escape from devil's playgrounds, and nests so ok. However, I would imagine Hell is going to be a different place down under unless he knew exactly where he was going, "Ok when they took me I was facing east so I need to go west." It would have been hard to maneuver around. It's not like Hell has any road signs (at least I would assume not) that say devils gate Wyoming next right. The only thing I could figure is John found out Lilith was on her way out and followed her to her rondevu point and ept himself hidden which was probably hard as hell (hehheh) to do considering how many demos busted through that gate. That's thin however you look at it.

    Well considering how everything plays out, in the end one would have to look in past episodes and explain all the holes throughout. If one was to watch the season unfold it's a mess, nothing of Souls or Cas' deception until "My Heart Will Go On" before that it was clearly Angel Weapons. Seriously If Cas was to put Balthazar on this lil ruse to keep him occupied explain Raph's interest in the weapons as well, cause I doubt he would have played into Cas's mindgame to let our special brother think he's doing good. It's a pretty weak plot overall.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [95]May 20, 2012
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    trans8010 wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Why does everyone assume thatbecauseGod didn't destroy the Leviathans that he can't. Not doing something and not being able to do something are not the same thing and until a character who's in apositionto know what they're talking about said he couldn't I'm going with just didn't choose to.


    As for Raph, Cas wasn't an angle anymore he was the new God. If he decides to kill an angel by blowing them up ,he does. Besides IF Raph was still alive he would have made a move by now (especiallyin the time since the angles learned Cas was still alive). He's dead and gone.




    Was it stated somewhere this season that God could not destroy the Leviathan and that's the reason why he built purgatory? I could be wrong but I thought it was said somewhere. OPnce again if wrong I apologize for the error

    Cas was still an Angel, he just had a hell of a lot of Power from the Leviathans and the other souls of Purgatory. Death said so himself Cas was not a god. Ok take this into account Raph and Cas were scrambling to find heaven's arsenal, whoever had the most weapons won the war, he even chased the boys throughout parallel universes to grab the key that would open the door the weapons were s tored in. At least that's what Raph thought. Prior to that Raph's former vessel was disintegrated into salt. Now it's been said the only way to kill an angel is with the blade, or by destroying the meat suit. It was also assumed that the weapons could kill Angels, why else would Raph want them so badly? So given that Raph was disintegrated by one of these weapons how is it he lived yet when his other meat suit was destroyed he died? I dont get that. It's a huge hole. Raphael was second in command along side Michael and he's one of the few who has seen God, so if that's true God could have told the few who have seen him Lucifer, Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel about the Leviathan's destructive nature and had he survived the second meat suit's demise he could have very well had laid low till the heat wore off.


    I don't recall the word couldn't being used but I don't recall exactly. I also don't know how a nearly all powerful being couldn't destroy what He Himself made.


    As for Raph and Cas, Cas was pretty near all powerful himself, he wanted Raph dead so he's dead. Not seeing an issue here.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [96]May 20, 2012
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    trans8010 wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Obviouslyyou've forgotten howdeterminedand resourceful John could be (not to mention just plain old stubborn). He said he knew everything I take him that and I wouldn't besurprisedif he knew enough to know how to escape and where the opening was going to be. Timing would be hard but given how often we've seen and heard how good John was at his work I wouldn't besurprisedif he could work that out as well. In any case, mere chance is so unlikely as not even be a serious option and I don't see the demons letting him go, or changing their minds on breaking him under anycircumstances(why wait a year and not even try to break the guy you have now). So it's pretty certain he escaped, knew roughly where the gate was and was able to hide out and wait his chance.


    Clearly, Cas sent Balthazar on that quest to keep him busy and prevent him from working out what was really going, exactly the same way he allowed Sam, Dean and Bobby (and even encouraged them) topursueMother, keep them busy so they wouldn't work out what's really going on. He couldn't have them all just going about doing whatever and risk them stumbling onto the truth.


    I can't image a fan of this show just forgetting about John and Mary. You bust out a revelation like 'they're not in Heaven' you better have a story to back it up or you're going to hear about it down the road.




    So John escapes ok I'll buy that we've seen Sam and Dean evade capture and escape from devil's playgrounds, and nests so ok. However, I would imagine Hell is going to be a different place down under unless he knew exactly where he was going, "Ok when they took me I was facing east so I need to go west." It would have been hard to maneuver around. It's not like Hell has any road signs (at least I would assume not) that say devils gate Wyoming next right. The only thing I could figure is John found out Lilith was on her way out and followed her to her rondevu point and ept himself hidden which was probably hard as hell (hehheh) to do considering how many demos busted through that gate. That's thin however you look at it.

    Well considering how everything plays out, in the end one would have to look in past episodes and explain all the holes throughout. If one was to watch the season unfold it's a mess, nothing of Souls or Cas' deception until "My Heart Will Go On" before that it was clearly Angel Weapons. Seriously If Cas was to put Balthazar on this lil ruse to keep him occupied explain Raph's interest in the weapons as well, cause I doubt he would have played into Cas's mindgame to let our special brother think he's doing good. It's a pretty weak plot overall.


    It may be thin but they've had thinner and it's really the only thing that tracks. He must have got free and laid low until he followed one of the demons to the gate then hid nearby and after they were through climbed out himself (remember he wasapparentlyamongthe last to get out). It's the onlyexplanation.


    I never said the weapons weren't important or powerful I'm sure they are/were. Cas was planning on trumping them with the souls so while Raph wanted them to take down Cas (after his display of power) but Cas only pretended to be after them (or even wanted them as a back up plan) and put Balthazar on them (nicely keeping him busy) while he and Crowley went after Purgatory. Besidesit would have beensuspiciousto the angels if Cas wasn't opening doing anything to win the war (since he was doing the real work in secret).

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    RichardCarlso

    [97]May 20, 2012
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    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    RichardCarlso wrote:


    Define everyone. Castiel said Chuck was a Prophet of the Lord,,,not the Lord.


    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    again, you need to watch the final episode of season 5 where a very relaxed Chuck (completely different to his normal character traits) finishes his drink, smiles and then vanishes. prophets don't do that. the evidence that he was God is incontrovertible.


    RichardCarlso wrote:
    It could be that the task God had for him was finished and God simply removed him. Just because he smiles and disappears doesn't mean he was God.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxIybIuNplg less than 30 seconds in. need any more evidence?



    You can post that as many times as you want , but he hedged and didn't specifically say his character WAS god.
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    RichardCarlso

    [98]May 20, 2012
    • member since: 05/05/12
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    I goofed. Sorry for my double post above.

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  • Avatar of RichardCarlso

    RichardCarlso

    [99]May 20, 2012
    • member since: 05/05/12
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    libra113 wrote:

    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I wonder if Castiel and Dean were killed in the process of being sucked into Purgatory, and only their spirits are there. Purgatory is a spirit realm, like Heaven and Hell, so I doubt physical bodies could exist in it. In the ep where Sam and Dean went to Heaven, their physical bodies were killed first. Before Dean went to Hell, his physical body was killed by the hell hounds.


    Sam when into the cage (which is somewhere in Hell) both body and soul so it's possible to travel there physical. Don't know how (if at all) that changes things but I guess we're going to see.



    Have to disagree. At the very end of Swan Song, we see 'Souless Sam's' physical body under the streetlight looking in the window at Dean and Lisa sitting at the table. Yes, we saw his body falling/disappear through the gate to the Cage, but I think his body and soul were separated before he actually entered the Cage. We just didn't see the separation occur. Lucifer and Michael would have no need of Sam's physical body when they had his eternal soul to torture.
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    Beecharm3r2

    [100]May 20, 2012
    • member since: 09/16/08
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    Some good points about this episode: I'm glad Bobby's not a ghost anymore 'cause I didn't like where they were taking that with him beginning to get shady. I like that they didn't kill of Kevin yet. I liked Sam going after Bobby to help him, it was more reminiscent of Season 1 Sam. I liked the idea of having a show-down with the Leviathans as the finale episode this season.

    BUT I wasn't crazy about the episode overall. When I'm into an episode, I keep it on my PVR for a couple months and watch at least twice. This time, I deleted right away...so I don't mind waiting a until the DVD to get to it again (If I end up buying it at all). So I'm still hating Meg and her weird character changes. I don't like that Castiel has feelings for her for reasons I've mentioned many times before that I won't go into.

    I don't like that the show-down with Dick Roman was relatively simple. I felt like there should have been a little more fight to get to him once they were in the building. I also feel like that for some big-nasty evil guys they were SUPPOSED to be, they still weren't all that scary. However, I did like how Dean tricked Dick with the second bone, it showed he was being clever, even if it wasn't necessary. At least it wasn't making Dean seem like an idiot.

    Castiel - disappointment he never found his marbles.

    Crowley - curious to find out why he wants Kevin. Is his soul worth a lot more that he's a prophet? And I was kind of hoping that killing Dick would mean all the Leviathans go poof. But apparently they're still around, to roam aimlessly... I think that's a mistake on the writer's part. They didn't add anything the show so why bother leaving it open that they might pop up again?

    Dean and Cas in Purgatory? I'm reserving my judgement on that. I hope the writers use that as a jumping off point to come up with a really good plot - other than just Cas and Dean escaping Purgatory... maybe we'll see some previously dead characters there?

    It wasn't the worst episode of the series, but for Supernatural Season finales, I think if I rated it from 1-7 with #7 being the worst...well, season 7 gets a 7. Aside from the previous things I just mentioned, I got the feeling the writers were just trying to wrap everything up to prepare for next year. I guess it felt a little rushed. With that said, I'm grateful the Leviathans won't be the main plot next season.
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