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Official Discussion Thread: Survival of the Fittest (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of WCSU1987

    WCSU1987

    [101]May 20, 2012
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    Finished watching Season 5 ending and have interpretation to the Chuck debate. It appears more that Chuck was an apparition created by God to explain the Boy's story how it leads into the part "Nothing Ever Ends". Could possibly been a writer for God someone had to write on those tablets back then ay? With Season 5 to now was "The End" just the beginning. What can Season 8 produce?

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [102]May 20, 2012
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    RichardCarlso wrote:
    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:


    Define everyone. Castiel said Chuck was a Prophet of the Lord,,,not the Lord.


    lachlan_j_g wrote:


    again, you need to watch the final episode of season 5 where a very relaxed Chuck (completely different to his normal character traits) finishes his drink, smiles and then vanishes. prophets don't do that. the evidence that he was God is incontrovertible.


    RichardCarlso wrote:
    It could be that the task God had for him was finished and God simply removed him. Just because he smiles and disappears doesn't mean he was God.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxIybIuNplg less than 30 seconds in. need any more evidence?


    You can post that as many times as you want , but he hedged and didn't specifically say his character WAS god.
    He did in the one I saw. I will see if I can track it down and post but you could just as easily go to youtube and look for yourself. There's also one with Kripke saying Chuck was God and I think one more but I don't remember who it was.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [103]May 20, 2012
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    RichardCarlso wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I wonder if Castiel and Dean were killed in the process of being sucked into Purgatory, and only their spirits are there. Purgatory is a spirit realm, like Heaven and Hell, so I doubt physical bodies could exist in it. In the ep where Sam and Dean went to Heaven, their physical bodies were killed first. Before Dean went to Hell, his physical body was killed by the hell hounds.


    Sam when into the cage (which is somewhere in Hell) both body and soul so it's possible to travel there physical. Don't know how (if at all) that changes things but I guess we're going to see.


    Have to disagree. At the very end of Swan Song, we see 'Souless Sam's' physical body under the streetlight looking in the window at Dean and Lisa sitting at the table. Yes, we saw his body falling/disappear through the gate to the Cage, but I think his body and soul were separated before he actually entered the Cage. We just didn't see the separation occur. Lucifer and Michael would have no need of Sam's physical body when they had his eternal soul to torture.
    No that was Cas' doing, he said as much and was standing right there in the replay the following season. Not only was it not automatic by Cas' account (which was him talking to God forguidanceand likely the whole truth) it didn't happen right away, it was shortly after but not instantly. So Sam was in Hell in the flesh for at least a little bit.

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  • Avatar of RichardCarlso

    RichardCarlso

    [104]May 20, 2012
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    WCSU1987 wrote:

    Finished watching Season 5 ending and have interpretation to the Chuck debate. It appears more that Chuck was an apparition created by God to explain the Boy's story how it leads into the part "Nothing Ever Ends". Could possibly been a writer for God someone had to write on those tablets back then ay? With Season 5 to now was "The End" just the beginning. What can Season 8 produce?



    Good points. I believe he was a prophet. His job was to write the Gospel of The Winchesters. His work/purpose was finished, so God took him to Heaven. And there was the time Chuck said his visions gave him headaches. I seriously doubt God has headaches.
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    Beecharm3r2

    [105]May 20, 2012
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    I'm going to jump in on the Chuck/God debate. A lot of fans (me included) think it was almost like God in witness protection thing. Like he was in hiding and it wasn't until the end of the apocalypse that God was to appear. In Chuck's case, a self-realization. Yeah it's complicated but for me, they hinted a little throughout Season 5 that God was among us (humanity) so it's plausible God was appearing to be human. So God was seeing the future and therefore Chuck was having the visions. So when you see in the episode The End, the apocalypse was ongoing. There was no battle between Michael/Lucifer and therefore God never made an appearance. So he was still stuck in human form (as Chuck) without the memories of God. I'm not sure if I'm saying this right but it's like God turned himself human with a false memory. And he chose the perfect person. If he wanted to appear human and keep a distant watch over the Winchesters and the world, he could still do so as a prophet - who see things anyways. The headaches are a byproduct of the word of God, which would still be the case. So he received the word of God (himself - as he was before he became human temporarily). When he realized who he was, it was like a spell broken and he disappeared. Literally.
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  • Avatar of WCSU1987

    WCSU1987

    [106]May 21, 2012
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    Interesting point am still hooked that Chuck was a projection God created to narrate the Boy's story to that point. In a way was God on the show…

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  • Avatar of OdumC

    OdumC

    [107]May 21, 2012
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    So that was disappointing. they had to get the Impala back just to crash it again? I think any vehicle would have pulled all the guards out of the lobby, it's not like they had scenes where people were watching the black Impala with the newly tinted meg hiding windows and started screaming "THE WINCHESTERS ARE HERE!!"

    And.. the big plan was... stab Dick with a fake weapon just to have cas distract him so you can stab him with the real weapon... Let's see if we can streamline this plan a bit, yes? Ok... for starters, start the fight by stabbing him with the REAL weapon. look at that.. already knocked off a step or 2...

    and when you see the big bad pulsing faster and faster... at what point would running seem like a good idea?

    I mean I know the purgatory trip was the cost of using the weapon so it's not like they could outrun it... but common sense says you're not going to just stand there watching while this thing 2 feet away starts doing everything but scream "I WILL EXPLODE IN 3...2...1..."

    They should have left Bobby dead. everything he did since coming back was pretty pointless except to ruin the memory of Bobby's character..he had an amazing exit episode and they cheapen it with an off camera flash being his new show exit.

    Dean's in purgatory... so what? wanna shock me? send em to Disneyland sometime.. heaven/hell/purgatory... it's getting old. Get stuck writing? toss one of the boys in a pit and you have a solid 2 episodes of stories that write themselves of the other brother anguished yet going on until they run into each other and still have the nerve to act shocked.

    Nice to see Kansas back in the opening "Road so far" I commented a long time ago the classic rock soundtrack really set the mood for the show and it became pretty obvious when they strayed from it.

    And yeah, Chuck was God.. they made it pretty clear on the show especially during the voice over talking about God and where he could be and the normally jittery disheveled Chuck is sitting there well groomed, enjoying a drink, smiles at the camera and poofs.

    and someone asked earlier, but yeah the flask was an old fatboy style, thick with a leather wrap around the middle, the one they threw in the fire was a silver slim one with filigree etched all over it.. I figured bobby stashed a few hairs or something under the leather wrap as his DNA would have a hard time holding on any other way through the cases of bourbon Dean was pouring through it.
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    Tyrathius

    [108]May 21, 2012
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    The fake weapon thing was mostly just done to scare the audience, to make them think the weapon hadn't worked. From an in-universe perspective, I think the idea was that Dean and Cas didn't think Dick would just let them stab him, but he might let his guard down if he thought he'd destroyed the weapon. As it turned out, it was unnecessary, but you can chalk that up as one more of Dick's egregious villain ball moments.

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  • Avatar of Benty

    Benty

    [109]May 21, 2012
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    This episode reminded me too much of Smallville's season 5 finale when Clark ends up the Phantom Zone. I can't help but feel that the next season is gonna start the same way, where Dean will escape from purgatory and a load of monsters will escape with him.

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  • Avatar of gatoraderising

    gatoraderising

    [110]May 21, 2012
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    trans8010 wrote:

    libra113 wrote:


    Why does everyone assume thatbecauseGod didn't destroy the Leviathans that he can't. Not doing something and not being able to do something are not the same thing and until a character who's in apositionto know what they're talking about said he couldn't I'm going with just didn't choose to.


    As for Raph, Cas wasn't an angle anymore he was the new God. If he decides to kill an angel by blowing them up ,he does. Besides IF Raph was still alive he would have made a move by now (especiallyin the time since the angles learned Cas was still alive). He's dead and gone.




    Was it stated somewhere this season that God could not destroy the Leviathan and that's the reason why he built purgatory? I could be wrong but I thought it was said somewhere. OPnce again if wrong I apologize for the error

    Cas was still an Angel, he just had a hell of a lot of Power from the Leviathans and the other souls of Purgatory. Death said so himself Cas was not a god. Ok take this into account Raph and Cas were scrambling to find heaven's arsenal, whoever had the most weapons won the war, he even chased the boys throughout parallel universes to grab the key that would open the door the weapons were s tored in. At least that's what Raph thought. Prior to that Raph's former vessel was disintegrated into salt. Now it's been said the only way to kill an angel is with the blade, or by destroying the meat suit. It was also assumed that the weapons could kill Angels, why else would Raph want them so badly? So given that Raph was disintegrated by one of these weapons how is it he lived yet when his other meat suit was destroyed he died? I dont get that. It's a huge hole. Raphael was second in command along side Michael and he's one of the few who has seen God, so if that's true God could have told the few who have seen him Lucifer, Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel about the Leviathan's destructive nature and had he survived the second meat suit's demise he could have very well had laid low till the heat wore off.



    No it was never said that God couldnt destory the Leviathan. People just think that because he locked them in Purgatory. Cas wasnt a angel anymore when he had all the souls in him from Purgatory. Cas was comparing himself to God when Death said " I know God and you are not God".
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [111]May 21, 2012
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    Beecharm3r2 wrote:
    I'm going to jump in on the Chuck/God debate. A lot of fans (me included) think it was almost like God in witness protection thing. Like he was in hiding and it wasn't until the end of the apocalypse that God was to appear. In Chuck's case, a self-realization. Yeah it's complicated but for me, they hinted a little throughout Season 5 that God was among us (humanity) so it's plausible God was appearing to be human. So God was seeing the future and therefore Chuck was having the visions. So when you see in the episode The End, the apocalypse was ongoing. There was no battle between Michael/Lucifer and therefore God never made an appearance. So he was still stuck in human form (as Chuck) without the memories of God. I'm not sure if I'm saying this right but it's like God turned himself human with a false memory. And he chose the perfect person. If he wanted to appear human and keep a distant watch over the Winchesters and the world, he could still do so as a prophet - who see things anyways. The headaches are a byproduct of the word of God, which would still be the case. So he received the word of God (himself - as he was before he became human temporarily). When he realized who he was, it was like a spell broken and he disappeared. Literally.
    Pretty much. We also have to remember that he had an archangel watching his every move 24-7 so if he was going to play his role he had to be Chuck 24-7. The headaches were likely an act to make him seem like any other profit as was his calling hookers, etc... at the point he sat down andnarrated the ending all bets were pretty much off so he finished and relocated somewhere else to continue hidingamonghumans.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [112]May 21, 2012
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    Tyrathius wrote:


    The fake weapon thing was mostly just done to scare the audience, to make them think the weapon hadn't worked. From an in-universe perspective, I think the idea was that Dean and Cas didn't think Dick would just let them stab him, but he might let his guard down if he thought he'd destroyed the weapon. As it turned out, it was unnecessary, but you can chalk that up as one more of Dick's egregious villain ball moments.


    Exactly. It was to get him to drop his guard. Make him think Crowley had given them the wrong blood. The mission has failed so his ego kicks in and he thinks he'sinvincible and here comes the REAL weapon.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [113]May 21, 2012
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    trans8010 wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Why does everyone assume thatbecauseGod didn't destroy the Leviathans that he can't. Not doing something and not being able to do something are not the same thing and until a character who's in apositionto know what they're talking about said he couldn't I'm going with just didn't choose to.


    As for Raph, Cas wasn't an angle anymore he was the new God. If he decides to kill an angel by blowing them up ,he does. Besides IF Raph was still alive he would have made a move by now (especiallyin the time since the angles learned Cas was still alive). He's dead and gone.




    Was it stated somewhere this season that God could not destroy the Leviathan and that's the reason why he built purgatory? I could be wrong but I thought it was said somewhere. OPnce again if wrong I apologize for the error

    Cas was still an Angel, he just had a hell of a lot of Power from the Leviathans and the other souls of Purgatory. Death said so himself Cas was not a god. Ok take this into account Raph and Cas were scrambling to find heaven's arsenal, whoever had the most weapons won the war, he even chased the boys throughout parallel universes to grab the key that would open the door the weapons were s tored in. At least that's what Raph thought. Prior to that Raph's former vessel was disintegrated into salt. Now it's been said the only way to kill an angel is with the blade, or by destroying the meat suit. It was also assumed that the weapons could kill Angels, why else would Raph want them so badly? So given that Raph was disintegrated by one of these weapons how is it he lived yet when his other meat suit was destroyed he died? I dont get that. It's a huge hole. Raphael was second in command along side Michael and he's one of the few who has seen God, so if that's true God could have told the few who have seen him Lucifer, Michael, Raphael, and Gabriel about the Leviathan's destructive nature and had he survived the second meat suit's demise he could have very well had laid low till the heat wore off.


    No it was never said that God couldnt destory the Leviathan. People just think that because he locked them in Purgatory. Cas wasnt a angel anymore when he had all the souls in him from Purgatory. Cas was comparing himself to God when Death said " I know God and you are not God".
    Yeah and I suspect that was more apersonalitything than a power thing.

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    danharr

    [114]May 21, 2012
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    Moving past first page of petty complaints, Yes this was a good finale Dean and Castiel trapped in purgatory was good enough. Why people needed to psychoanalyze the current predicament is beyond me and as far as I'm concerned. As Libra sadly had to explain to some of you all the weapons side effects not Dick is what got them in purgatory which should've been obvious. Not sure how waves emanating from the big bad guy equaled he had control to some you. Fitting end for Bobby if the show is going to end next year they need to start ending the story lines of characters and that would apply to Meg also. Can't wait to see the world pick back up now that Dick's not poisoning the food supply. People waking up and monster mystery deaths easing up we will pretty much be back to how it all began.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [115]May 21, 2012
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    danharr wrote:


    Moving past first page of petty complaints, Yes this was a good finale Dean and Castiel trapped in purgatory was good enough. Why people needed to psychoanalyze the current predicament is beyond me and as far as I'm concerned. As Libra sadly had to explain to some of you all the weapons side effects not Dick is what got them in purgatory which should've been obvious. Not sure how waves emanating from the big bad guy equaled he had control to some you. Fitting end for Bobby if the show is going to end next year they need to start ending the story lines of characters and that would apply to Meg also. Can't wait to see the world pick back up now that Dick's not poisoning the food supply. People waking up and monster mystery deaths easing up we will pretty much be back to how it all began.


    Well, it seems we've kind of had an influx of people who aren't either paying attention or just miss some stuff. I mean Crowley even said the weapon had some side effects (or words to that effect I don't recall the exact wording).


    Still, I guess people get their own ideas and they get so attached to them they just can't see ifdifferently(like the whole Chuck is God and Mother was a decoy thing).

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    nhcool_007

    [116]May 21, 2012
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    I've been reading people's comments regarding this episode (on the review written by Tim) and what I dont get is why do they keep comparing it to the first five seasons or the season 5 finale. I mean you've got to evolve with the show, no one's saying it was a solid season 7 but it wasn't bad. And this finale was definitely not bad. Half the stigma attached to the show having gone downhill after season 5 is because of Kripke leaving, Season 5 finale was great because it brought a long story arc to a close but the finale in itself had quite a no of flaws too. I mean had it ended with sam stuck down there and Dean living with lisa, well I would have been bummed for sure.


    regarding this episode...Purgatory damn interesting set up for season 8. And as everyone here is hoping, they should extend that beyond just one or twoepisodes.


    And just one question: Cas did sound like his old self in purgatory didn't he? I mean to come to think of it, he never actually went crazy in the literal sense, he just became really zen loving and random. But I miss the badass angel team member, so hoping to see that side of him next season.


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  • Avatar of OdumC

    OdumC

    [117]May 21, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:

    Tyrathius wrote:


    The fake weapon thing was mostly just done to scare the audience, to make them think the weapon hadn't worked. From an in-universe perspective, I think the idea was that Dean and Cas didn't think Dick would just let them stab him, but he might let his guard down if he thought he'd destroyed the weapon. As it turned out, it was unnecessary, but you can chalk that up as one more of Dick's egregious villain ball moments.


    Exactly. It was to get him to drop his guard. Make him think Crowley had given them the wrong blood. The mission has failed so his ego kicks in and he thinks he'sinvincible and here comes the REAL weapon.

    that makes no sense. if he had used the real weapon to start with Dick'd be dead and no reason to kick up his ego and make him careless and easy to kill.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [118]May 22, 2012
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    OdumC wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    Tyrathius wrote:


    The fake weapon thing was mostly just done to scare the audience, to make them think the weapon hadn't worked. From an in-universe perspective, I think the idea was that Dean and Cas didn't think Dick would just let them stab him, but he might let his guard down if he thought he'd destroyed the weapon. As it turned out, it was unnecessary, but you can chalk that up as one more of Dick's egregious villain ball moments.


    Exactly. It was to get him to drop his guard. Make him think Crowley had given them the wrong blood. The mission has failed so his ego kicks in and he thinks he'sinvincible and here comes the REAL weapon.


    that makes no sense. if he had used the real weapon to start with Dick'd be dead and no reason to kick up his ego and make him careless and easy to kill.
    But Dean isn't a psychic. He didn't have any idea he would get the lucky hit in so it was just in case Dick managed to stop him. It was a back up plan, that's how back up plans work.

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  • Avatar of OdumC

    OdumC

    [119]May 22, 2012
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    Hope you didn't hurt yourself reaching for that one.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [120]May 22, 2012
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    OdumC wrote:
    Hope you didn't hurt yourself reaching for that one.
    No because it's not a reach. It would have been reckless (at the very least) to go in there knowing you had one shot and just hoping you could make that shot first try. Much better the way they did it.

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