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Official Discussion Thread: The Man Who Would Be King (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [21]May 6, 2011
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    AnimeMadness wrote:
    I hate this show for making me so crazy. But I can't help but to love it. This episode was fantastic! I felt Cas' pain. Why can't Dean and Sam just try to understand what Castiel is doing is for them? I don't want Cas to die especially by Dean's hands....
    Well, I think it's more about the lying and going behind their backs (although it's also about dealing with a demon).


    In truth Cas hasn't really done anything neither Sam or Dean haven't done (making deals with demon and lying about it).


    I think in Dean's case it's all too familaur and he doesn't want to go down the same road and make the same mistakes he feels he made with Sam.


    In Sam's case he's probably seeing a lot of himself in Cas right now and not liking what he seeing.


    In Bobby's case he's had a front row seat to both Sam and Dean's past mistakes and he, likely, doesn't want to see it all played out all over again.


    In a way Cas is more a Winchester now than anything becasue he's done all the things we've seen not only Sam and Dean but also John do, just hopefully he can pull out this spiral before he crashes and burns.

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  • Avatar of snakcz

    snakcz

    [23]May 7, 2011
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    Up is down, black is white. I feel Castiel has become more lost than evil/dark. This is all new to him and when Dean called him a child, Castiel really acts like one sometimes. He picks up habits from Sam and Dean throughout the show and becomes more human like. "Freedom" is new to Castiel and he's just taking advantage of it. He doesn't know on a true human perspective of what is right and what is wrong. That's why he's able to justify his deal with Crowley. He's fighting a war knowing he could lose and the apocalypse will start again. Castiel is trying to lead his angels to defeat Raphael when what he needs is someone/God to lead or show him the way.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [24]May 7, 2011
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    snakcz wrote:

    Up is down, black is white. I feel Castiel has become more lost than evil/dark. This is all new to him and when Dean called him a child, Castiel really acts like one sometimes. He picks up habits from Sam and Dean throughout the show and becomes more human like. "Freedom" is new to Castiel and he's just taking advantage of it. He doesn't know on a true human perspective of what is right and what is wrong. That's why he's able to justify his deal with Crowley. He's fighting a war knowing he could lose and the apocalypse will start again. Castiel is trying to lead his angels to defeat Raphael when what he needs is someone/God to lead or show him the way.

    Yes, exactly. You can't just suddenly give someone free will and expect them to make major choices and not stumble.

    It would be like if someone raised a child by teaching them to do as they're told and never let them make any of their own choices then suddenly the child is an adult and the parent is out of the picture and they have to make major life choices all on their own.

    Cas craves guidance (which is why he often emulates Dean)and right now he's looking for God or someone tell him if what he's doing is right or wrong and to stop him. Guessing Dean will have to be the one to try, just hope it doesn't end really badly.
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  • Avatar of Mickis

    Mickis

    [25]May 7, 2011
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    I realize I'm totally biased where Cas is my favorite, but the Winchesters and Bobby really pissed me off in this episode. You know about the kettle and the pot, right? Sam and Dean BOTH worked with Crowley last season to stop the Apocolypse, and Bobby even made a deal and sold his soul, or lent it or whatever. This is cleary an issue of the Lesser of Two Evils, just as it was back then.


    Fact is, the Apocolypse is still brewing just around the corner, and this might not be a great plan to stop it, but so far it's the only one that's been offered. At the very least they should have given him the opportunity to explain himself. They were just interested in a 'yes' or 'no' when they asked if he was working with Crowley. You at LEAST hear the guy out why he's chosen to do so. I get it that they were upset about him not telling them about it, though. That is the part that would have me pissed off, because going behind someone's back like that is shady.


    On a sidenote, I really loved it when Dean said Cas was like a brother to him. Finally we get some vocal confirmation from Dean that our favorite angel isn't just some winged weapon they keep around for insurance.



    Oh, and if Cas dies and Misha leaves the show, as the rumor has it, I know someone with two thumbs who's going to be so pissed and bitter about it... unless they arrange for him to have his own spinoff series, of course. That would be awesome.



    So to sum up? Sam and Dean pissed me off and now I'm extremely worried this might be it for Castiel. If he does die, it better not be by the Winchesters' hands, because I don't know how I'm supposed to go on liking those characters after doing something like that. Bah!


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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [26]May 7, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    I don't think it's out of character at all for Dean to see Cas like a brother.

    They've been through a lot and Cas was the one he turned to the most when Sam was going off the rails and Ruby had him so twisted he didn't know which way was up.

    It's only natural that Dean would see Cas as a brother in arms if not like a member of the family.

    It was really sad seeing them being set against each other by circomstances and their choices and I just hope Cas can be redeemed in the end.

    Barring that let him be killed off then bring him back to do pennance for his bad choices either next season or perhaps in his own series.


    I think what she wanted to say is that it's not out of character for Dean to consider Castiel his brother/family/friend, but is out of character for him to be so open emotionally to actually say it.

    Also, didn't I tell you Crowley wasn't powerful enough to bring Sam out? It just didn't make sense, and I'm not gloating, but yeah, I was right So King of Hell or not, even the writers were aware of the impossibility of such thing.

    Now about the episode. I loved it. I think it's a great episode. One of the reasons it's great lies in the fact that it has narrative. It has a story with a progression, with revelations and consequences. I think the boring ones have this formula: stumble upon a wrong situation, work out the monster, and deal with it. This episode actually has a story, and it's finally not told in the last three minutes of the episode.

    A great episode. And I love Crowley's version of Hell - so ultrarational
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [27]May 7, 2011
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    Yeah, Dean's only that open when he's in a deaperate situation and that was a desperate situation. I never aurged that Crowley had someone backing him. In fact I often said he probably had someone who helped him become King of Hell and with the other stuff.

    It seems that the angles can acess the cage at will but the demons have to go through the seals and when it came to busting Lucifer out of the cage and ending the world the demons needed to do it (plausable deniablity surely ).

    What's intresting and I don't think anyone has mentioned it is that apprently the "Supernatural" universe embrases 'intelligent design'. There's a God and apprently eveloution is his means of creation (Cas mentioned the first fish to climb out of the oceans). Intresting bit there and totally overlooked.

    I also again have to get a shout out to the evil twins bit (evil Bobby compleate with his own evil Dean and evil Sam clones). So like the evil Justice League (aka the Crime Syndicate of America) in the comics and even in the same episode with the whole Superman/Krypotnite talk. Someone has been doing a lot of comic book reading in their past.
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  • Avatar of lachlan_j_g

    lachlan_j_g

    [28]May 7, 2011
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    Mickis wrote:


    I realize I'm totally biased where Cas is my favorite, but the Winchesters and Bobby really pissed me off in this episode. You know about the kettle and the pot, right? Sam and Dean BOTH worked with Crowley last season to stop the Apocolypse, and Bobby even made a deal and sold his soul, or lent it or whatever. This is cleary an issue of the Lesser of Two Evils, just as it was back then.



    well to be fair, Sam and Dean didn't really have a choice - and they really weren't happy about it. Bobby sold his soul to get Death's location, so they all got something out of it. Cas was acting on his own free will, and yes made a stupid choice - but isn't that what free will is all about

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  • Avatar of presario111

    presario111

    [29]May 7, 2011
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    good episode, wut wuz up with the eggs in eves stomach though cant help but think theres something to that. also did anyone else notice the lovecraft mythos nod in the finale promo.

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  • Avatar of jkpop_07

    jkpop_07

    [30]May 7, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:


    I think what she wanted to say is that it's not out of character for Dean to consider Castiel his brother/family/friend, but is out of character for him to be so open emotionally to actually say it.

    Also, didn't I tell you Crowley wasn't powerful enough to bring Sam out? It just didn't make sense, and I'm not gloating, but yeah, I was right So King of Hell or not, even the writers were aware of the impossibility of such thing.

    Now about the episode. I loved it. I think it's a great episode. One of the reasons it's great lies in the fact that it has narrative. It has a story with a progression, with revelations and consequences. I think the boring ones have this formula: stumble upon a wrong situation, work out the monster, and deal with it. This episode actually has a story, and it's finally not told in the last three minutes of the episode.

    A great episode. And I love Crowley's version of Hell - so ultrarational


    lol I laughed at Crowley's version of Hell! Waiting in a line SUCKS! Before this ep I had mixed feelings about Crowley being alive and potentially being the season villain again. He just doesn't seem he could be Even after I watched the sneak peak clip of Crowley and Cas. It seemed like the actor was trying too hard. The way he talked about the Winchesters just reminded me of the Scooby Doo bad guys. "I would have been King of HELL if it weren't for you meddling WINCHESTERS!!!" lol

    But after watching the ep he changed my mind. I was impressed by the way he seduced Cas...to the darkside! lol couldn't help it!

    This was a truly epic episode! Things are starting to come together! MAY 20th why can't you come sooner?!
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  • Avatar of Escobar1987

    Escobar1987

    [31]May 7, 2011
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    Sam, Dean and Bobby are all hypocrites they each have made pacts with demons in the past and all for selfish reasons (ie. bring back Sam blah blah blah). Castiel is atleast trying to save not only heaven from Raphael but earth as well I mean come on stop being all high and mighty about it and see if you can find another way to help and stop being so judgmental you pricks. I am going to be so pissed if they kill Cast over this.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [32]May 7, 2011
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    Well, that is the Winchester way: demon deals, lies and all that are fine for Sam, Dean, John and even Bobby (from their perspective) but they judge the hell out of anyone else (and each other) for it.

    Honestly, more than anything I think it's the betrayal and the lies that bothered them the most. Not to mention it couldn't have been cool to realize he was secretly watching them like that. Who knows how long and often he's done that and it's kinda creepy.
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  • Avatar of lachlan_j_g

    lachlan_j_g

    [33]May 7, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Not to mention it couldn't have been cool to realize he was secretly watching them like that. Who knows how long and often he's done that and it's kinda creepy.


    sure as hell puts facebook stalking in perspective!

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    yutg25

    [35]May 8, 2011
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    I think that once the boys have calm down they can work through this. Cas is still protecting them, as I expected. Cas knows what he's doing is wrong. Its the same way with Sam in season 4. Unfortunately this time around you don't have a way of contacting Cas to talk this out. Balthazaar's not a good candidate. Thats why I really wanted Rachel to survive.


    Dean is only open emotionally to family Sam, Bobby and now Cas. It shows that he is like family to Dean.


    I wonder if the Titanic thing was a way of Cas getting out of his deal with Crowley for the 50G loan. Pay him back as it were.


    Anyone else wonder why Eve is still laying eggs and what those eggs are for?


    They can't kill Cas yet. I mean if Cas goes down the Apocalypse is back on. I'm sure that once the Raph is stopped and there will no longer be any Apocalypse Cas will willingly take whatever punishment God wants to deal on him.


    Scriptwise I think Cas may have to be written off. I think I've said it before Cas is like the ultimate ex dues machina. One of the boys die Cas can bring him back They need to time travel Cas can swing it. They need to take care of an enemy threat Cas comes in to save the day. Don't get me wrong I love the guy. I just don't see how they can keep Cas stunted.


    Hopefully Cas' reward/punishment for his acts is for his grace to be taken away at least he isn't dead that way Mischa can still be in the story.


    Edited on 05/07/2011 11:18pm
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    Sektos

    [36]May 8, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    It seems that the angles can acess the cage at will but the demons have to go through the seals and when it came to busting Lucifer out of the cage and ending the world the demons needed to do it (plausable deniablity surely ).

    What's intresting and I don't think anyone has mentioned it is that apprently the "Supernatural" universe embrases 'intelligent design'. There's a God and apprently eveloution is his means of creation (Cas mentioned the first fish to climb out of the oceans). Intresting bit there and totally overlooked.


    1) Not really as Castiel said it was virtually impossible to get Sam and even then he failed to bring him back fully, leaving behind his soul. Lucifer is a HUGE (Remember how cas described his own true form, now imagine Lucy) and incredibly powerful. It took Death to grab Sam's soul.

    2) It's been hinted for awhile evolution exists in Supernatural what with Uriel referring to them as mud-monkey's and Old gods saying they were there before god, same for eve. HOWEVER its not necessarily embracing intelligent design as that involves a Creator playing a key part in "designing" life forms (Irreducible complexity and that junk). I think its more Supernatural God being aware of the future of life on the planet and having his own plans for it, maybe being the zap of lightning that started the process. I think it was probably an experiment on God's part (rather like in Sandman/Lucifer) and he wanted to see the results of it. Just as he's been hands off with the show for most part he perhaps started or found life on earth and wanted to see where it goes. After all, why use evolution when u can zap-bang humanity then and there if u wanted them as the end result. ALso the land walking fish was alot later in the history of life there was billions of years of aquatic life, bacteria and protiens before that, so for all we know they turned up only around the time of the fish
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  • Avatar of smegmag

    smegmag

    [37]May 8, 2011
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    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    Mickis wrote:


    I realize I'm totally biased where Cas is my favorite, but the Winchesters and Bobby really pissed me off in this episode. You know about the kettle and the pot, right? Sam and Dean BOTH worked with Crowley last season to stop the Apocolypse, and Bobby even made a deal and sold his soul, or lent it or whatever. This is cleary an issue of the Lesser of Two Evils, just as it was back then.



    well to be fair, Sam and Dean didn't really have a choice - and they really weren't happy about it. Bobby sold his soul to get Death's location, so they all got something out of it. Cas was acting on his own free will, and yes made a stupid choice - but isn't that what free will is all about



    Cas, didnt really have a choice either--swear fealty to Raph and restart the end of the world--worse for Cas the end of Dean. Also, I didn't notice Cas being happy about any of his choices.

    I've tried really hard to think what Cas could have done otherwise and how talking/confiding in Dean could have made a difference afterall as Cas said he's just a human and Cas is an angel.

    At first I came up empty, but then I thought Dean with his GED and give 'em hell attitude is the master of "weak". Every thing he's ever faced has been technically stronger, more powerful than him. Cas could have sat at the foot of the master of weak.

    I think they (Cas and Dean) would still have had to somehow deal with Crowley, I don't see any way around that, but it would have been a whole different ballgame, it would've been even better if they had managed to keep their alliance secret. As it was Cas thought since he was an angel and stronger than Crowley he could control him. He totally underestimated Crowley--who obviously was another master of weak. Can you imagine how low a demon has to start out who traded their soul for penis enlargement? Cas couldn't deal with him--his only dealing with demons involved smiting. Here Dean could have been invaluable--he understood weak and evil and unctous and vicious and craven and all the other myriad things Crowley was at heart. At least it could have gotten Dean off lawn duty and back in the Impala. Ahhhh, what might have been.

    And lest we forget, BRAVO, writer/director Ben Edlund, BRAVO.

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    gatoraderising

    [38]May 8, 2011
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    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    Mickis wrote:


    I realize I'm totally biased where Cas is my favorite, but the Winchesters and Bobby really pissed me off in this episode. You know about the kettle and the pot, right? Sam and Dean BOTH worked with Crowley last season to stop the Apocolypse, and Bobby even made a deal and sold his soul, or lent it or whatever. This is cleary an issue of the Lesser of Two Evils, just as it was back then.



    well to be fair, Sam and Dean didn't really have a choice - and they really weren't happy about it. Bobby sold his soul to get Death's location, so they all got something out of it. Cas was acting on his own free will, and yes made a stupid choice - but isn't that what free will is all about



    In a way Cas really had no other option then to work with Crowley. If he didn't make the deal with Crowley, Cas would have had to either kneel before Raphael and let Raph get Michael and Lucifer out or be killed by him. Really Dean,Sam and Booby were in no postion to help Cas. I can see why they would be mad at Cas for sneaking around, but how about they give Cas a chance to explain things to them instead of kinda threating to kill him.
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  • Avatar of gatoraderising

    gatoraderising

    [39]May 8, 2011
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    Was it me or did Crowley kinda look a little scared of Cas when he ticked Cas off in the scene in the cabin?
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    sinjaceheroes

    [40]May 8, 2011
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    Well, this was one of my favorite episodes yet. I loved the storytelling, unique from every episode of the show yet. Revealing just what was necessary and then kicking us in the gut. I have to say, kudos to Ben.


    I loved how tragically human Castiel was at the end. He may have been an angel, but when he asked God for a sign, he was met with the same obscure silence people who pray to him do. I thought it was a great ending.


    There is nothing much to argue or guess over in this episode. Everything was told plainly.


    I liked the way they introduced the Fish and that Castiel was present even then. It was a nice touch from the show, not simply taking the religious view, well, not completely.


    I liked how confused and pathetic angels truly are. It's almost tragic. They are simply weapons and nothing else. Except for Castiel, whom I guess to be the only angel ever to fully comprehend and adapt free will to his being. This was something that needed to be shown.


    I'm pretty sure God is "no longer a part of this story"--to borrow Michael's words. His silence is something that drives not just Castiel, but everything in the SPN universe!


    I loved what they did to Eve. I THINK with this they mean to tell us Eve is not fully completely 100% dead. There is a way yet for her to return, or she simply cannot die and is in Purgatory or something. Or maybe even still in that body but in a "death coma" like the ones some immortal characters go through in fantasy literature. The eggs still breeding inside of her was brilliant. It echoed what Castiel said about the bible and it not being exactly right. The bible confused Lillith and her ever ongoing birthing of demons with SPN's Eve's ever ongoing birth of monsters. I don't care if she does come back or not, her point in this story is done. Still, something has to take her place. Or the balance is gone. Maybe they'll touch on that on Season 7--do I hear "transformed" character somewhere?


    Crowley was as pleasant as always.


    I like that they are showing what Castiel is going through. It's not just Sam and Dean anymore, the apocalypse grew the story to the whole of creation and the stakes are ever higher.


    Now as for the two weeks to come, I saw Cthulu! Holy Jebus! The thing is that Cthulu is a monster....which means, Purgatory will be opened and Cthulu will be released--or so I am seeing. It could be that Cthulu was Eve's GRAND baby. Made to destroy the world should her end ever come. I was struggling with whether Other Sam had the black veins or dirt, and I think it's dirt--but I can hope. Thing is that I am not sure anymore of who the character to die will be. It COULD be Castiel. It could. However, it can't because that would leave Sam and Dean to Raphael's mercy and that's not gonna go well. We are always gonna need Castiel to protect the bros from Heaven--the only thing they can't fight, not really.


    I guess we're finally gonna guess whether Balthazar is good or bad! Finally!

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