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Official Discussion Thread: The Man Who Would Be King (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [41]May 8, 2011
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    yutg25 wrote:

    I think that once the boys have calm down they can work through this. Cas is still protecting them, as I expected. Cas knows what he's doing is wrong. Its the same way with Sam in season 4. Unfortunately this time around you don't have a way of contacting Cas to talk this out. Balthazaar's not a good candidate. Thats why I really wanted Rachel to survive.


    Dean is only open emotionally to family Sam, Bobby and now Cas. It shows that he is like family to Dean.


    I wonder if the Titanic thing was a way of Cas getting out of his deal with Crowley for the 50G loan. Pay him back as it were.


    Anyone else wonder why Eve is still laying eggs and what those eggs are for?


    They can't kill Cas yet. I mean if Cas goes down the Apocalypse is back on. I'm sure that once the Raph is stopped and there will no longer be any Apocalypse Cas will willingly take whatever punishment God wants to deal on him.


    Scriptwise I think Cas may have to be written off. I think I've said it before Cas is like the ultimate ex dues machina. One of the boys die Cas can bring him back They need to time travel Cas can swing it. They need to take care of an enemy threat Cas comes in to save the day. Don't get me wrong I love the guy. I just don't see how they can keep Cas stunted.


    Hopefully Cas' reward/punishment for his acts is for his grace to be taken away at least he isn't dead that way Mischa can still be in the story.


    I'd be all for Cas being reset to the way he was in season five where he could do SOME things but not others and the more powerful the harder it was to do and the more hard on him it was.

    I would love to see him get his own show where he's all but human and relies on his knowledge and rituals to help people and earn his redemption.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [42]May 8, 2011
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    Sektos wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    It seems that the angles can acess the cage at will but the demons have to go through the seals and when it came to busting Lucifer out of the cage and ending the world the demons needed to do it (plausable deniablity surely ).

    What's intresting and I don't think anyone has mentioned it is that apprently the "Supernatural" universe embrases 'intelligent design'. There's a God and apprently eveloution is his means of creation (Cas mentioned the first fish to climb out of the oceans). Intresting bit there and totally overlooked.


    1) Not really as Castiel said it was virtually impossible to get Sam and even then he failed to bring him back fully, leaving behind his soul. Lucifer is a HUGE (Remember how cas described his own true form, now imagine Lucy) and incredibly powerful. It took Death to grab Sam's soul.

    2) It's been hinted for awhile evolution exists in Supernatural what with Uriel referring to them as mud-monkey's and Old gods saying they were there before god, same for eve. HOWEVER its not necessarily embracing intelligent design as that involves a Creator playing a key part in "designing" life forms (Irreducible complexity and that junk). I think its more Supernatural God being aware of the future of life on the planet and having his own plans for it, maybe being the zap of lightning that started the process. I think it was probably an experiment on God's part (rather like in Sandman/Lucifer) and he wanted to see the results of it. Just as he's been hands off with the show for most part he perhaps started or found life on earth and wanted to see where it goes. After all, why use evolution when u can zap-bang humanity then and there if u wanted them as the end result. ALso the land walking fish was alot later in the history of life there was billions of years of aquatic life, bacteria and protiens before that, so for all we know they turned up only around the time of the fish
    1. Well I guess it's much easier to just open the cage door and let Micheal and Lucifer out than it is to reach/go inside and let out JUST Sam. In any case it must be easy for Raph to let them out (once he gets control of Heaven) otherwise restarting the whole final battle thing would be impossible.

    2. Yeah they've hinted at intelligent design on the show but this is the first time they've pretty much stated it outright. Religion says God created man in his own image and that everything on Earth came into being exactly as it is now (no eveloution invovled) but when you have total proof and have fossles that show the process step by step, missing link or not, it's hard to have to position so intelligent design is a compromise (it's also a way to Trogen Horse religion into schools as 'science'). Still storywise it's intresting.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [43]May 8, 2011
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    smegmag wrote:
    lachlan_j_g wrote:

    Mickis wrote:


    I realize I'm totally biased where Cas is my favorite, but the Winchesters and Bobby really pissed me off in this episode. You know about the kettle and the pot, right? Sam and Dean BOTH worked with Crowley last season to stop the Apocolypse, and Bobby even made a deal and sold his soul, or lent it or whatever. This is cleary an issue of the Lesser of Two Evils, just as it was back then.



    well to be fair, Sam and Dean didn't really have a choice - and they really weren't happy about it. Bobby sold his soul to get Death's location, so they all got something out of it. Cas was acting on his own free will, and yes made a stupid choice - but isn't that what free will is all about



    Cas, didnt really have a choice either--swear fealty to Raph and restart the end of the world--worse for Cas the end of Dean. Also, I didn't notice Cas being happy about any of his choices.

    I've tried really hard to think what Cas could have done otherwise and how talking/confiding in Dean could have made a difference afterall as Cas said he's just a human and Cas is an angel.

    At first I came up empty, but then I thought Dean with his GED and give 'em hell attitude is the master of "weak". Every thing he's ever faced has been technically stronger, more powerful than him. Cas could have sat at the foot of the master of weak.

    I think they (Cas and Dean) would still have had to somehow deal with Crowley, I don't see any way around that, but it would have been a whole different ballgame, it would've been even better if they had managed to keep their alliance secret. As it was Cas thought since he was an angel and stronger than Crowley he could control him. He totally underestimated Crowley--who obviously was another master of weak. Can you imagine how low a demon has to start out who traded their soul for penis enlargement? Cas couldn't deal with him--his only dealing with demons involved smiting. Here Dean could have been invaluable--he understood weak and evil and unctous and vicious and craven and all the other myriad things Crowley was at heart. At least it could have gotten Dean off lawn duty and back in the Impala. Ahhhh, what might have been.

    And lest we forget, BRAVO, writer/director Ben Edlund, BRAVO.

    Yeah but it's taken them whole seasons to defeat stuff on the level of Raph and as Cas told Crowley he didn't have time he needed something right away.

    In the short term there's not much talking to Dean would have done except shatter the illousion of his 'normal' life and drag him back into a life that cost him everything.
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  • Avatar of Sektos

    Sektos

    [44]May 8, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:

    1. Well I guess it's much easier to just open the cage door and let Micheal and Lucifer out than it is to reach/go inside and let out JUST Sam. In any case it must be easy for Raph to let them out (once he gets control of Heaven) otherwise restarting the whole final battle thing would be impossible.

    2. Yeah they've hinted at intelligent design on the show but this is the first time they've pretty much stated it outright. Religion says God created man in his own image and that everything on Earth came into being exactly as it is now (no eveloution invovled) but when you have total proof and have fossles that show the process step by step, missing link or not, it's hard to have to position so intelligent design is a compromise (it's also a way to Trogen Horse religion into schools as 'science'). Still storywise it's intresting.


    1. Maybe now its easier due to Dean breaking first seal and Sam killing Lilith, but again i doubt its easy at all. And i would say its the reverse! Sam might fit through the cage bars, where as (like i said in last post) Lucifer, and now mike, are to large and powerful to do so. Also we've been shown souls are incredibly powerful (big) prehaps explaining why only Sam's body got through.

    2. In a show about the supernatural obviously there's more than just physics and biology at play. Yeah i know about trojan horse (revealed many of their books quote directly from old creationist books) I'm just glad i live in Australia where there is hardly any ID movement at all. My point was that its not necessarily intelligent design because Humanity and the rest of life were not "designed". We know evolution exists in Supernatural (as hinted b4) but not that God had anything to do with it apart from coming upon it one day (a fish crawling onto land). And as been shown and described with Angels true forms, God probably isnt human formed at all either. Personally, judging by god's attitude in the show, he/she/it probably just observed it to see how it played out and once intelligent life appeared (which could have been lizard ppl for all h/s/i cared) god may have tried to guide it alittle, though this is questionable as all we have to go on are what some Angels have said, and they are less than reliable. He certainly didnt intervene to stop the other "gods" and monster go about their business, or Lucifer's fall

    My guess is we are dealing with a fallible (especially if it is Chuck and how he describes his actions) god in supernatural, who isn't perfect and tries to give freewill etc but with many negative results.

    LOL but in a show about the supernatural i'm really just arguing technicalities Either way im GLAD that Supernatural didnt just ignore scientific evidence and go the 7day route (i was worried when Bobby mentioned Noah and the flood *groan*)
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  • Avatar of Sektos

    Sektos

    [45]May 8, 2011
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    Plus don't forget they still need Sam for the apocalypse

    But yes, the cage is probably easier to open than before because seals are broken. However i don't think its easy or Raphael would have done it already (hence as you said getting all of heaven). Its certainly strong enough to contain BOTH Lucy and Mike
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  • Avatar of sakutan

    sakutan

    [46]May 8, 2011
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    Hey, I've been a frecuent flyier on this forum but never really posted, I've had a question all season and I've been trying to see if anyone's is wondering the same thing... Can't find anything about it, so I gotta ask... Isn't anyone wondering what happened to Sam's and Dean's bonemarks so Angels are not able to find them? I mean, all past season Dean had to call Cas on the phone and tell him where he was for him (Cas) could show up, but all this season he just pops up like in S.4. What happened to the markings?


    I kept wondering about this all this episode, how could Cas keep watch on Dean all the time and popup as he used?


    And as for this episode, I'm torned, I do agree with the fact that maybe Cas' part is over, it's been just too easy for the Wincherster now that they have an Angel on their shoulders, but it would really piss me off to see Cas die, specially because he did what all of them had done, a deal with Crowley.


    Maybe he will be grace-less and have to help as a human to atone for what he has done...


    I liked the fact that Eve wasn't just thrown under the rug, she is still a possible threat, connected to her babies. I wasn't watching on the TV so I couldn't see the sneak peak for next episode, but for what I've read here it's awsome that Chthulu is going to show up ^^

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  • Avatar of sinjaceheroes

    sinjaceheroes

    [47]May 8, 2011
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    sakutan wrote:


    1- Isn't anyone wondering what happened to Sam's and Dean's bonemarks so Angels are not able to find them? I mean, all past season Dean had to call Cas on the phone and tell him where he was for him (Cas) could show up, but all this season he just pops up like in S.4. What happened to the markings?


    2- I kept wondering about this all this episode, how could Cas keep watch on Dean all the time and popup as he used?




    Well, I can answer those for ya.


    Question 1: whether or not they are marked, if they pray to Castiel he can find them. That's why they pray every time they ask for him. Though apparently all the praying Cass needs is closing one's eyes and saying his name.


    Question 2: It wouldn't be hard for Castiel to find Dean. Dean told Castiel what he was going to do--live with Lisa--finding him that way would have been easy enough. As for how he appeared in Bobby's place, well, that's the only place they would go to. And Bobby ain't marked and Castiel knows where Bobby lives.


    Of course, this is SPN, so it can be because the Tooth Fairy told him.

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  • Avatar of sakutan

    sakutan

    [48]May 8, 2011
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    sinjaceheroes wrote:

    sakutan wrote:


    1- Isn't anyone wondering what happened to Sam's and Dean's bonemarks so Angels are not able to find them? I mean, all past season Dean had to call Cas on the phone and tell him where he was for him (Cas) could show up, but all this season he just pops up like in S.4. What happened to the markings?


    2- I kept wondering about this all this episode, how could Cas keep watch on Dean all the time and popup as he used?




    Well, I can answer those for ya.


    Question 1: whether or not they are marked, if they pray to Castiel he can find them. That's why they pray every time they ask for him. Though apparently all the praying Cass needs is closing one's eyes and saying his name.


    Question 2: It wouldn't be hard for Castiel to find Dean. Dean told Castiel what he was going to do--live with Lisa--finding him that way would have been easy enough. As for how he appeared in Bobby's place, well, that's the only place they would go to. And Bobby ain't marked and Castiel knows where Bobby lives.


    Of course, this is SPN, so it can be because the Tooth Fairy told him.



    Well, ofcourse, Cas poping in on Dean at Boby's Place its logical, and at Lisa's Place, but, at the begining of this episode he pops in on Dean while driving the car somewhere random in the US... how can we explain that? Can Cas target the car too?
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  • Avatar of sinjaceheroes

    sinjaceheroes

    [49]May 8, 2011
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    sakutan wrote:
    sinjaceheroes wrote:


    sakutan wrote:


    1- Isn't anyone wondering what happened to Sam's and Dean's bonemarks so Angels are not able to find them? I mean, all past season Dean had to call Cas on the phone and tell him where he was for him (Cas) could show up, but all this season he just pops up like in S.4. What happened to the markings?


    2- I kept wondering about this all this episode, how could Cas keep watch on Dean all the time and popup as he used?




    Well, I can answer those for ya.


    Question 1: whether or not they are marked, if they pray to Castiel he can find them. That's why they pray every time they ask for him. Though apparently all the praying Cass needs is closing one's eyes and saying his name.


    Question 2: It wouldn't be hard for Castiel to find Dean. Dean told Castiel what he was going to do--live with Lisa--finding him that way would have been easy enough. As for how he appeared in Bobby's place, well, that's the only place they would go to. And Bobby ain't marked and Castiel knows where Bobby lives.


    Of course, this is SPN, so it can be because the Tooth Fairy told him.


    Well, ofcourse, Cas poping in on Dean at Boby's Place its logical, and at Lisa's Place, but, at the begining of this episode he pops in on Dean while driving the car somewhere random in the US... how can we explain that? Can Cas target the car too?


    Nope. The car ain't marked. See, Tooth Fairy.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [50]May 8, 2011
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    Sektos wrote:
    libra113 wrote:

    1. Well I guess it's much easier to just open the cage door and let Micheal and Lucifer out than it is to reach/go inside and let out JUST Sam. In any case it must be easy for Raph to let them out (once he gets control of Heaven) otherwise restarting the whole final battle thing would be impossible.

    2. Yeah they've hinted at intelligent design on the show but this is the first time they've pretty much stated it outright. Religion says God created man in his own image and that everything on Earth came into being exactly as it is now (no eveloution invovled) but when you have total proof and have fossles that show the process step by step, missing link or not, it's hard to have to position so intelligent design is a compromise (it's also a way to Trogen Horse religion into schools as 'science'). Still storywise it's intresting.


    1. Maybe now its easier due to Dean breaking first seal and Sam killing Lilith, but again i doubt its easy at all. And i would say its the reverse! Sam might fit through the cage bars, where as (like i said in last post) Lucifer, and now mike, are to large and powerful to do so. Also we've been shown souls are incredibly powerful (big) prehaps explaining why only Sam's body got through.

    2. In a show about the supernatural obviously there's more than just physics and biology at play. Yeah i know about trojan horse (revealed many of their books quote directly from old creationist books) I'm just glad i live in Australia where there is hardly any ID movement at all. My point was that its not necessarily intelligent design because Humanity and the rest of life were not "designed". We know evolution exists in Supernatural (as hinted b4) but not that God had anything to do with it apart from coming upon it one day (a fish crawling onto land). And as been shown and described with Angels true forms, God probably isnt human formed at all either. Personally, judging by god's attitude in the show, he/she/it probably just observed it to see how it played out and once intelligent life appeared (which could have been lizard ppl for all h/s/i cared) god may have tried to guide it alittle, though this is questionable as all we have to go on are what some Angels have said, and they are less than reliable. He certainly didnt intervene to stop the other "gods" and monster go about their business, or Lucifer's fall

    My guess is we are dealing with a fallible (especially if it is Chuck and how he describes his actions) god in supernatural, who isn't perfect and tries to give freewill etc but with many negative results.

    LOL but in a show about the supernatural i'm really just arguing technicalities Either way im GLAD that Supernatural didnt just ignore scientific evidence and go the 7day route (i was worried when Bobby mentioned Noah and the flood *groan*)
    When talking about Lucifer's cage one thing we have to watch for is not taking the word cage so litteraly. As I've said before I doubt his cage is litterally bars and locks, in fact I doubt it's truely physical at all. In any case Cas was able to get the body and not the soul (possibly becasue Lucifer and Micheal were playing with it) and apprently Raph has a way to open it up and them out so it's enough to say that much.

    Yeah I don't really think it's Intelligent Design exactly. I mean MAYBE God was the spark maybe he just happend to find it but it's clear they're taking a science/religion approch together and it's kind of intresting because most shows either attempt to explain the monsters and stuff scientifically (I think the short lived show "Special Unit 2" did that) or they go totally the other way and it's nice to see a balance.

    I think pretty much everyone knows that Intelligent Design is a bunk, so far the only people I've heard support it are the people who dreamed it up as a way to slide religion back into school, I know scientist in particular generally dislike the whole idea.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [51]May 8, 2011
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    Sektos wrote:
    Plus don't forget they still need Sam for the apocalypse

    But yes, the cage is probably easier to open than before because seals are broken. However i don't think its easy or Raphael would have done it already (hence as you said getting all of heaven). Its certainly strong enough to contain BOTH Lucy and Mike
    I haven't decided yet if he wants all of Heaven behind him so it's not all on his head down the road OR if he needs all of Heaven behind him to pull it off.

    Of course it's also possible that he just wants to crush Cas and his side so there would be no opposition this time around.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [52]May 8, 2011
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    sakutan wrote:
    sinjaceheroes wrote:

    sakutan wrote:


    1- Isn't anyone wondering what happened to Sam's and Dean's bonemarks so Angels are not able to find them? I mean, all past season Dean had to call Cas on the phone and tell him where he was for him (Cas) could show up, but all this season he just pops up like in S.4. What happened to the markings?


    2- I kept wondering about this all this episode, how could Cas keep watch on Dean all the time and popup as he used?




    Well, I can answer those for ya.


    Question 1: whether or not they are marked, if they pray to Castiel he can find them. That's why they pray every time they ask for him. Though apparently all the praying Cass needs is closing one's eyes and saying his name.


    Question 2: It wouldn't be hard for Castiel to find Dean. Dean told Castiel what he was going to do--live with Lisa--finding him that way would have been easy enough. As for how he appeared in Bobby's place, well, that's the only place they would go to. And Bobby ain't marked and Castiel knows where Bobby lives.


    Of course, this is SPN, so it can be because the Tooth Fairy told him.



    Well, ofcourse, Cas poping in on Dean at Boby's Place its logical, and at Lisa's Place, but, at the begining of this episode he pops in on Dean while driving the car somewhere random in the US... how can we explain that? Can Cas target the car too?
    Well, as we've seen he's been keeping closer tabs on the guys since they found out that Crowley is still alive so I suppose he just keeps an eye on them (so to speak) once he already knows where they are. Also, we've seen a lot of times where he's watching them without them knowing so he may have already been there from before.

    Of course he may be using a non angelic way of tracking them since the Crowley thing came to light. At one time Crowley had coins hidden in the car that could track them and act like listening devices maybe Cas planted more.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [53]May 8, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Sektos wrote:
    libra113 wrote:

    1. Well I guess it's much easier to just open the cage door and let Micheal and Lucifer out than it is to reach/go inside and let out JUST Sam. In any case it must be easy for Raph to let them out (once he gets control of Heaven) otherwise restarting the whole final battle thing would be impossible.

    2. Yeah they've hinted at intelligent design on the show but this is the first time they've pretty much stated it outright. Religion says God created man in his own image and that everything on Earth came into being exactly as it is now (no eveloution invovled) but when you have total proof and have fossles that show the process step by step, missing link or not, it's hard to have to position so intelligent design is a compromise (it's also a way to Trogen Horse religion into schools as 'science'). Still storywise it's intresting.


    1. Maybe now its easier due to Dean breaking first seal and Sam killing Lilith, but again i doubt its easy at all. And i would say its the reverse! Sam might fit through the cage bars, where as (like i said in last post) Lucifer, and now mike, are to large and powerful to do so. Also we've been shown souls are incredibly powerful (big) prehaps explaining why only Sam's body got through.

    2. In a show about the supernatural obviously there's more than just physics and biology at play. Yeah i know about trojan horse (revealed many of their books quote directly from old creationist books) I'm just glad i live in Australia where there is hardly any ID movement at all. My point was that its not necessarily intelligent design because Humanity and the rest of life were not "designed". We know evolution exists in Supernatural (as hinted b4) but not that God had anything to do with it apart from coming upon it one day (a fish crawling onto land). And as been shown and described with Angels true forms, God probably isnt human formed at all either. Personally, judging by god's attitude in the show, he/she/it probably just observed it to see how it played out and once intelligent life appeared (which could have been lizard ppl for all h/s/i cared) god may have tried to guide it alittle, though this is questionable as all we have to go on are what some Angels have said, and they are less than reliable. He certainly didnt intervene to stop the other "gods" and monster go about their business, or Lucifer's fall

    My guess is we are dealing with a fallible (especially if it is Chuck and how he describes his actions) god in supernatural, who isn't perfect and tries to give freewill etc but with many negative results.

    LOL but in a show about the supernatural i'm really just arguing technicalities Either way im GLAD that Supernatural didnt just ignore scientific evidence and go the 7day route (i was worried when Bobby mentioned Noah and the flood *groan*)
    When talking about Lucifer's cage one thing we have to watch for is not taking the word cage so litteraly. As I've said before I doubt his cage is litterally bars and locks, in fact I doubt it's truely physical at all. In any case Cas was able to get the body and not the soul (possibly becasue Lucifer and Micheal were playing with it) and apprently Raph has a way to open it up and them out so it's enough to say that much.

    Yeah I don't really think it's Intelligent Design exactly. I mean MAYBE God was the spark maybe he just happend to find it but it's clear they're taking a science/religion approch together and it's kind of intresting because most shows either attempt to explain the monsters and stuff scientifically (I think the short lived show "Special Unit 2" did that) or they go totally the other way and it's nice to see a balance.

    I think pretty much everyone knows that Intelligent Design is a bunk, so far the only people I've heard support it are the people who dreamed it up as a way to slide religion back into school, I know scientist in particular generally dislike the whole idea.


    When I once voiced objections against Intelligent Design at a forum specifically for fans of that idea, the result was following:

    1) One of them said he/she would pray for my soul
    2) The other promised to me that I would cry a great many tears when HE (God, I guess) appeared
    3) A few of them I think told me I was infidel who will regret much when the time comes

    I tried arguing with them pretty peacefully, but most of them concluded I was beyond salvation.

    When the moderator (who is chief Intelligent Designer propagator in my country) appeared, he simply deleted my posts, and my profile.

    I wouldn't generalize, but the people there are not at all open to science and reason. They cling to that part of science and logic which helps them (like complexity of the universe, theory of information), but when you try to talk about it, they just don't listen. In fact they condemn and threaten you with Hell more fervently than most people of faith.

    ---

    As for the episode. I think the whole Dark Bobby, Dark Superman was done with craft, the parallels were there, the execution was there, the narrative existed. Questions were answered, so after my rants about some episodes these season, I can say I'm glad Supernatural is still there.

    Interestingly enough, Castiel fell just when he was the most human. Just when he started showing emotions, lying, joking, being truly concerned about his friends, getting emotionally tied to his friends, he fell. That's interesting. It appears that an angel can become human once his rational side is suppressed.

    I think there's something good in Castiel's imperfection. He's a lot more interesting that way. I stopped caring about the character ever since S5, but now I think he has a great potential in the story line and writers could send him to even greater darkness, repentance, more moral dilemmas, sacrifice... There are many options opened up by this turn of events.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [54]May 8, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Sektos wrote:
    libra113 wrote:

    1. Well I guess it's much easier to just open the cage door and let Micheal and Lucifer out than it is to reach/go inside and let out JUST Sam. In any case it must be easy for Raph to let them out (once he gets control of Heaven) otherwise restarting the whole final battle thing would be impossible.

    2. Yeah they've hinted at intelligent design on the show but this is the first time they've pretty much stated it outright. Religion says God created man in his own image and that everything on Earth came into being exactly as it is now (no eveloution invovled) but when you have total proof and have fossles that show the process step by step, missing link or not, it's hard to have to position so intelligent design is a compromise (it's also a way to Trogen Horse religion into schools as 'science'). Still storywise it's intresting.


    1. Maybe now its easier due to Dean breaking first seal and Sam killing Lilith, but again i doubt its easy at all. And i would say its the reverse! Sam might fit through the cage bars, where as (like i said in last post) Lucifer, and now mike, are to large and powerful to do so. Also we've been shown souls are incredibly powerful (big) prehaps explaining why only Sam's body got through.

    2. In a show about the supernatural obviously there's more than just physics and biology at play. Yeah i know about trojan horse (revealed many of their books quote directly from old creationist books) I'm just glad i live in Australia where there is hardly any ID movement at all. My point was that its not necessarily intelligent design because Humanity and the rest of life were not "designed". We know evolution exists in Supernatural (as hinted b4) but not that God had anything to do with it apart from coming upon it one day (a fish crawling onto land). And as been shown and described with Angels true forms, God probably isnt human formed at all either. Personally, judging by god's attitude in the show, he/she/it probably just observed it to see how it played out and once intelligent life appeared (which could have been lizard ppl for all h/s/i cared) god may have tried to guide it alittle, though this is questionable as all we have to go on are what some Angels have said, and they are less than reliable. He certainly didnt intervene to stop the other "gods" and monster go about their business, or Lucifer's fall

    My guess is we are dealing with a fallible (especially if it is Chuck and how he describes his actions) god in supernatural, who isn't perfect and tries to give freewill etc but with many negative results.

    LOL but in a show about the supernatural i'm really just arguing technicalities Either way im GLAD that Supernatural didnt just ignore scientific evidence and go the 7day route (i was worried when Bobby mentioned Noah and the flood *groan*)
    When talking about Lucifer's cage one thing we have to watch for is not taking the word cage so litteraly. As I've said before I doubt his cage is litterally bars and locks, in fact I doubt it's truely physical at all. In any case Cas was able to get the body and not the soul (possibly becasue Lucifer and Micheal were playing with it) and apprently Raph has a way to open it up and them out so it's enough to say that much.

    Yeah I don't really think it's Intelligent Design exactly. I mean MAYBE God was the spark maybe he just happend to find it but it's clear they're taking a science/religion approch together and it's kind of intresting because most shows either attempt to explain the monsters and stuff scientifically (I think the short lived show "Special Unit 2" did that) or they go totally the other way and it's nice to see a balance.

    I think pretty much everyone knows that Intelligent Design is a bunk, so far the only people I've heard support it are the people who dreamed it up as a way to slide religion back into school, I know scientist in particular generally dislike the whole idea.


    When I once voiced objections against Intelligent Design at a forum specifically for fans of that idea, the result was following:

    1) One of them said he/she would pray for my soul
    2) The other promised to me that I would cry a great many tears when HE (God, I guess) appeared
    3) A few of them I think told me I was infidel who will regret much when the time comes

    I tried arguing with them pretty peacefully, but most of them concluded I was beyond salvation.

    When the moderator (who is chief Intelligent Designer propagator in my country) appeared, he simply deleted my posts, and my profile.

    I wouldn't generalize, but the people there are not at all open to science and reason. They cling to that part of science and logic which helps them (like complexity of the universe, theory of information), but when you try to talk about it, they just don't listen. In fact they condemn and threaten you with Hell more fervently than most people of faith.

    ---

    As for the episode. I think the whole Dark Bobby, Dark Superman was done with craft, the parallels were there, the execution was there, the narrative existed. Questions were answered, so after my rants about some episodes these season, I can say I'm glad Supernatural is still there.

    Interestingly enough, Castiel fell just when he was the most human. Just when he started showing emotions, lying, joking, being truly concerned about his friends, getting emotionally tied to his friends, he fell. That's interesting. It appears that an angel can become human once his rational side is suppressed.

    I think there's something good in Castiel's imperfection. He's a lot more interesting that way. I stopped caring about the character ever since S5, but now I think he has a great potential in the story line and writers could send him to even greater darkness, repentance, more moral dilemmas, sacrifice... There are many options opened up by this turn of events.
    Unfortanatly, that seems to be the stardard response of people so deeply entrinched in their own belifs. Rather, being able to debate and talk about them they get anrgy and hostile and fall back on the old 'you will pay', 'you will burn in hell', etc... That's kinda how a lot of relgions took hold in the first place people telling the early humans toiling in the feilds of a better life and telling them if they didn't accept it they would suffer forever. Fear mongering is such an ugly thing.

    Yeah, the evil twin thing was fun not only with Bobby but with his Sam and Dean lookalikes too. Very Crime Syndicate of America.

    The further Cas falls the more intresting his rise will be.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [55]May 8, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:


    The further Cas falls the more intresting his rise will be.


    Rise - or sacrifice!! But even sacrifice could be regarded as some sort of rise, moral at least.
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    sakutan

    [56]May 8, 2011
    • member since: 05/08/11
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    The further Cas falls the more intresting his rise will be.


    Rise - or sacrifice!! But even sacrifice could be regarded as some sort of rise, moral at least.


    I think that's an interesting point... will Cas rise or sacrifice himself? I think this episode gives the impression it could go both ways... he will either Rise to the ocation, repent and save the day and be forgiven as all of them have after doing a deal with a Demon, or, he will sacrifice himself to kill Raphael as a way of atoning for what he has done.
    Either way, I feel this last episoded have returned the old SPN, at the begining of the season I thought "wow, what a waste, it's fun and all, but it's just not good enough, it should've ended at S.5." but now, I see why was all made and I just can't get enough, I wish there's a lot more of SPN than S.7.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [57]May 8, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:


    The further Cas falls the more intresting his rise will be.


    Rise - or sacrifice!! But even sacrifice could be regarded as some sort of rise, moral at least.
    Well, while they really could go that way I think it would be more intresting if he lived an started trying to earn forgiveness for his actions. Killing him seems kinda easy.
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  • Avatar of yutg25

    yutg25

    [58]May 8, 2011
    • member since: 01/18/11
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    Sektos wrote:
    Plus don't forget they still need Sam for the apocalypse But yes, the cage is probably easier to open than before because seals are broken. However i don't think its easy or Raphael would have done it already (hence as you said getting all of heaven). Its certainly strong enough to contain BOTH Lucy and Mike


    SInce they locked Lucifer in wouldn't it be proper to open another set of 66 seals to bust him and Michaelout?


    It occured to me that Dean was right there were other choices. If Cas asked Dean's advice.


    Dean would have said "tell Crowley to takehis deal and shove it where the sun don't shine" to Cas. Besides Crowley really doesn't have a choice. He is the weaker partner in this. Dean could havemade a counter offer"Crowley should give up all the souls he has to Casand if Cas wins maybejust maybethey leave Crowley alone for a little whilecuz if Cas looses they both fry anyway.


    if Crowley doesn't agree. Cas kills him and picks someone more agreeable to the deal and so on.If that doesn't work.I think thereare othersCas and Deancan run to for help Death. Hey maybe Cas could have gotten a loan from Eve anyway. Think about it if the apocalypse happens game over all of Eve's kids die and no more new great grandkids for her supply in Purgatory.


    I wonder what the supernatural beings stand on restarting the apocalypse plan. Death, Eve, Rumpelstilskin, Demigods.Granted some of these guys were finger paste to Lucifer but Lucifer ain't in business yet and they have a few angels toback them up. They could make real fight of it.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [59]May 8, 2011
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    Well, end of the day Cas would have been making a deal with a demon which, for an angel, is pretty shady.

    The only thing that would have done would have dragged Dean back in and Cas was TRYING to avoid that in the first place.

    Not sure Death would care, all he cares about is the natural order and the only reason he did anything the first time was becasue he objected to Lucifer biding him and making him do his bidding.

    IF Cas could reach Eve he wouldn't need Cas in the first place so I doubt that's on the table.

    The lesser gods TRIED to deal with Lucifer and got their collective backsides handed to them giftwrapped and I doubt Raph would be much diffrent.
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    CaptainHarkness

    [60]May 8, 2011
    • member since: 06/25/08
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    Up until this episode I thought season 6 was a bit of a mess but this makes it look brilliant. I hope the writers had it planned like this instead of just making it up as they wrote the season. As I suspected Misha collins was bloody excellent and super bada**!


    I'm super pumped for the finale now, heck I don't even mind waiting the two weeks.

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