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Official Discussion Thread: The Third Man (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [81]Oct 12, 2010
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    mynameisjohnas wrote:

    dman_dustin wrote:


    I disagree with all the "negative" comments on the brother interaction at the end.


    You can argue that as an audience you don't need/want to hear it. but is that actually the best argument against them?


    I mean take this episode for example. Dean knows something is wrong with Sam, and Dean wants to know what the "hell" is going on with Sam. Why would they not show Dean's concerns verbally to Sam? I mean after all Dean had concerns with Sam and Dean wanted answers, how is Dean going to get answers if he just looks the other way (just for the sake of not annoying the TV audience with another boring talk).




    Lol, well argued. Let me rephrase my earlier post. It's not so much that I have a problem with Dean voicing his concerns to Sam or that I think it's unrealistic he would. I don't even have a problem with the dialogue itself. My gripe is with where, how and why the dialogue takes place. As Dpebbleson already noted before me, it's almost always at the end of of the episode or when they're near/in the Impala and when you use a setting or a time period too often for a certain action or event it, to me at least, makes the action/event feel less organic/real when watching it. Likewise, I'll reiterate that I find the whole "our relationship is strained" thing to be boring. I don't deny that given the circumstances Dean should want some answers, but the fact that he's in a position where he the lack of those answers are straining his and Sam's relationship is simply a little old.


    Libra113, you make a good point when noting that it's not always easy for writers to gage how well an audience is going to understand or interpret certain elements of a show and as such sometimes might feel it necesarry to make sure things are clear. It's also true most TV shows do follow a certain formula even if they're good at hiding it. I'm certainly not saying I could do better myself. However, as with any trade whether it be in the sciences or arts, the best way to approach and understand how to do something properly (at at least well in the case of something subjective like the arts) is to simply look at the way others who have gotten it right in the past were able to do so and to me writing for a TV show should be no different. There are lots of series that have been able to make the playing out of their story lines from episode to episode seem more life like even if they followed well masked formulas. Angel, The West Wing, Alias (perhaps one of the most fomulaic shows of the 2000s), Law and Order, Lost, Entourage, Boardwalk Empire, Smallville, True Blood etc- they all (despite some of them being as far away from believable as a soap opera might be) were and still are able, for me at least, to present a certain feeling of reality because the interactions between the characters were/are fluid (both in the settings and time archs of the episode) and the relationships between them were dynamic rather than stoic (I had to chuckle to myself when Gamble was pitching season 6 to everyone saying it was "going to be about the brothers realtionship" because it's not like the past 5 seasons were about that). To an extent SPN does those things, but to an extent it doesn't.


    As such, I'd simply make the argument that if they need to impliment the arguments between the brothers somewhere in the show the writers should at least make it random. Place it in the middle of an episode; place it somewhere else other than near the Impala; have Dean vent to Bobby or Cas about Sam; and maybe, just maybe (although this has nothing to do with the arguments between the brothers) have the balls or breasts to ditch the formula story arch and make the episodes a little more tricky for audiences to guess what's coming on a scene to scene basis. I'm not saying Supernatural hasn't done this in the past, just that they should do it more often because when they do they seem to do it fairly well.


    Like I said, that's just my opinion. Some poeple like that whole monster of the week thing and the formula plots do suit those well so kudos to everyone who does enjoy watching SPN because of it. I have just have different tastes is all.



    Well, I can see their situation. On the one had they likely feel they MUST voice these concerns and have these scenes but on the other it must seem awkward to them if they drop them in the middle in the story (when they SHOULD be focusing on the case or are knee deep in bodies).

    I mean can you image:

    Sam and Dean slowly walk through the darkened hallway, flashlight in one hand, gun in the other.

    Suddenly Dean stops:

    Dean: Seriously Sam we HAVE to talk about what's wrong with you.
    Sam: I don't wanna talk about it and shouldn't we focus on what we're doing?
    Dean: No! I'm not moving another inch or fighting another monster of the week until you tell me what your deal is.

    Not exactly the ideal situation just stopping everything for a little heart to heart time.

    Now, to their credit they HAVE worked in some of that during other parts of the episodes (research time, stake outs and whatnot) but the major stuff it always at the end. Likely, they decided that while not REAL it does prevent the scene from dragging the whole show to a hault.

    Again it's not ideal and I don't dissagree that it would be nice to see it in other locations and other parts of the episode but I'm not sure how that would effect the story flow and that's something that has to be considered when making these choices.

    Sometimes it's a matter of the lesser of two evils.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [82]Oct 12, 2010
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    [QUOTE="Copioli"]
    libra113 wrote:
    Copioli wrote:

    All I hope is that it doesn't turn into a senerio where they trace the Alphas back to one creature and that killing it destorys all monsters so that Dean can go back to Lisa and live happily ever after. That would be SO lame.



    Actually, I would like it. It would be a good ending for the series that hunters were no longer needed.
    Yeah but "Supernatural" isn't a happy ending kind of show. They've spent going on six season now telling us that it all ends bloody and there are no happy ends so to change that now would be kind of fake, like sticking a happy 'Hollywood' ending on a story that doesn't fit that mold.
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    danharr

    [83]Oct 12, 2010
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    Great episode bringing the angels back in perfectly. Cas was fun coming back without his human interaction loved the biblical artifacts that explain the mass destruction of the old testament.

    Edited on 10/12/2010 10:32am
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    puppybunny1

    [84]Oct 13, 2010
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    I think that they may be working on giving Castiel a spin-off after Season 6. That is why everything is chaotic. IMO, Castiel needs a new wardrobe. Poor Misha...


    There are many different levels of hell. Maybe Sam didn't go to the deepest part of hell because he was in a cage with Lucifer. Also, hell could be a mental projection. Sam didn't have as many issues as Dean.


    Dean was a tortured soul. He never thought that he was good enough for anyone. He was broken inside. You can rewatch "My Bloody Valentine."


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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [85]Oct 13, 2010
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    Well, from what was said last season, the section of Hell where Lucifer was caged was the worst part of Hell there is (Dean said his stay in Hell would be Graceland compaired to there). Tradionally, Lucifer was cast into Hell as punishment so it's not going be a day spa or anything.

    Cas' wordrobe is part of what makes him work (it's based on John Constaine from the "Hellblazer" comics and it's a great look for him), besides if you look the characters all pretty much wear the same thing (or close to it) all the time anyway.

    I would love for Cas to have a spin off, as long as it's HIS spin off and not something like he takes on a new charage (like Dean) and he's helping them out and not getting much screen time again. Of course it could be that less is more and all Cas all the time MIGHT be too much of a good thing. As much as I hate to say that.
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    puppybunny1

    [86]Oct 13, 2010
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    I am surprised that Sam was not dramatized by Hell. Maybe he was out right before all of the torture began. OR maybe Papa Winchester helped him. I am just guessing here. I would love for JDM to come back. Else, they can let someone else play the role. Javier Bardem looks like JDM.



    As for Castiel, he should have a brand new show with his own minions. Maybe the Winchester boys can guess starred or something. He should also wear just a tie or white shirt. Give him other colored suits (grey, black, navy). It must be a drag to be in a drench coat all of the time.

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    WickedNix

    [87]Oct 13, 2010
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    Looks like my original post didn't go through.
    I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned this before, but didn't Cass say the reason he hadn't been in contact (with Sam) is because he was ashamed of what was going on in heaven?
    Or did I misunderstand that remark?
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [88]Oct 13, 2010
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    WickedNix wrote:
    Looks like my original post didn't go through.
    I'm not sure if anybody has mentioned this before, but didn't Cass say the reason he hadn't been in contact (with Sam) is because he was ashamed of what was going on in heaven?
    Or did I misunderstand that remark?
    I THINK what he said was he didn't reply to Sam becasue he didn't know who brought him back and he didn't turn to them for help with the situaiton he was in before that episode because he was ashamed of how the other angels were handling (or mishandling) their new found free will.
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    Copioli

    [89]Oct 13, 2010
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    I actually think that Daddy Winchester will make an appearance. Perhaps not with JDM, but with the good-looking young Winchester. Or in any other body.
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    Beecharm3r2

    [90]Oct 13, 2010
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    I really liked the episode. All the angel stuff, the fights, the gross (yet interesting) cop-deaths. I liked that the boy sold his soul and was glad when he was given it back. I like the Cas/Balthazar friendship. I love this episode.

    As for the idea of a Castiel spinoff... I LOVE him but I'm afraid that if he got a spin off that it would be too much. It makes me think of Joey on Friends. Loved him on that show but hated the 'Joey' show. I'd be worried it would turn out like that for Misha/Cas.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [91]Oct 13, 2010
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    Copioli wrote:
    I actually think that Daddy Winchester will make an appearance. Perhaps not with JDM, but with the good-looking young Winchester. Or in any other body.
    Well, it's GOTTA be JDM or they might as well not bother. Having come back as his younger self wouldn't make sense, nor would having him show up in another body.

    I know he's said that he WANTS to come back so the only issue is timing. I gotta say the idea of BOTH John and Mary back and hunting as a married couple would be kinds fun, even if for only one episode.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [92]Oct 13, 2010
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    Beecharm3r2 wrote:
    I really liked the episode. All the angel stuff, the fights, the gross (yet interesting) cop-deaths. I liked that the boy sold his soul and was glad when he was given it back. I like the Cas/Balthazar friendship. I love this episode.

    As for the idea of a Castiel spinoff... I LOVE him but I'm afraid that if he got a spin off that it would be too much. It makes me think of Joey on Friends. Loved him on that show but hated the 'Joey' show. I'd be worried it would turn out like that for Misha/Cas.
    Thing about "Joey" is that the character is the typical comedic dumb guy and you don't build a whole show around the comedic dumb guy, he's purelly supporting character material.

    The thing with Cas is as a full on angel again and being a character who works better with an air of mystery having him in his own show where he would be in it all the time would kill the mystery and his angelic power might make it a bit too easy to deal with whatever he's fighting in a given week.

    As much as I've said I would hate to see him get a spin off only to be given a back seat that's ALSO probably the only way it would work.

    Maybe a deal where he's put in charge of a trio of hunters and kind of guides them through their adventures or something.
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    Roz7

    [93]Oct 14, 2010
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    It could work as a one-off tv movie spin-off, maybe.


    "Castiel and the Halo Patrol"


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    caz74

    [94]Oct 14, 2010
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    I may be wrong but I though Lucifer was in a cage in hell. If that was the case then wouldn't he be alone in there. So wouldn't it have been just Sam/Lucifer and Adam/Michael in the cage. I think it was probably more mentally that Sam has been affected by having lucifer inside him. I don't think he would have been actually tortured or had to torture anyone else as there would not have been anyone else in the cage.


    I must admit being confused by the whole Lucifer in cage idea. I was also taught that Lucifer/the devilruled Hell like God ruled heaven, but he was unable to leave there. How could he rule from a cage?

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    CaptainHarkness

    [95]Oct 14, 2010
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    Beecharm3r2 wrote:
    I love this episode. As for the idea of a Castiel spinoff... I LOVE him but I'm afraid that if he got a spin off that it would be too much. It makes me think of Joey on Friends. Loved him on that show but hated the 'Joey' show. I'd be worried it would turn out like that for Misha/Cas.
    Cas is one of my favorite characters in Supernatural but I think the only Supernatural spin-off I'd want to see is a western prequel with Samuel Colt.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [96]Oct 14, 2010
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    Roz7 wrote:

    It could work as a one-off tv movie spin-off, maybe.


    "Castiel and the Halo Patrol"


    No gotta call it "God Squad".
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [97]Oct 14, 2010
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    caz74 wrote:

    I may be wrong but I though Lucifer was in a cage in hell. If that was the case then wouldn't he be alone in there. So wouldn't it have been just Sam/Lucifer and Adam/Michael in the cage. I think it was probably more mentally that Sam has been affected by having lucifer inside him. I don't think he would have been actually tortured or had to torture anyone else as there would not have been anyone else in the cage.


    I must admit being confused by the whole Lucifer in cage idea. I was also taught that Lucifer/the devilruled Hell like God ruled heaven, but he was unable to leave there. How could he rule from a cage?

    Well, "Supernatural" has a slightly diffrent idea. Lucifer doesn't so much rule Hell as, like God, is the creator of thoes who occupy it, has little to no direct contact with them AND is sort of their mythical god.

    Even so, it IS Hell and there's likely something painful and/or unpleasnt about his cage to make it punishment being locked in there. Just because someone is in a cage doesn't mean they can't be tortured, just ask anyone who was a POW during Vitnam about the tiger cages they were kept in and the messed up crap that was done to them to torture them while in their cages.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [98]Oct 14, 2010
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    CaptainHarkness wrote:

    Beecharm3r2 wrote:
    I love this episode. As for the idea of a Castiel spinoff... I LOVE him but I'm afraid that if he got a spin off that it would be too much. It makes me think of Joey on Friends. Loved him on that show but hated the 'Joey' show. I'd be worried it would turn out like that for Misha/Cas.
    Cas is one of my favorite characters in Supernatural but I think the only Supernatural spin-off I'd want to see is a western prequel with Samuel Colt.

    Well Cas is a full angel again so he can time travel... that's all I'm saying...
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    puppybunny1

    [99]Oct 14, 2010
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    I have seen Comic Con videos. Kripke and others mentioned that the Supernatural Universe is different. So I am guessing that he "Hell" that Sam was in is different, too.

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    WickedNix

    [100]Oct 14, 2010
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    Libra made a good point about the tiger cages during the Vietnam war.

    Wouldn't it be a twist if Sam actually didn't mind being in Hell and was sent back by Lucifer as his angel to have an insider for his advantage to aid in his work. Kind of like being brainwashed.

    Lucifer certainly wouldn't care about any collateral damage, e.g., loss of human or demon lives. Lucifer is out to win the war, not necessarily all the battles.

    There have been a lot of hunters in the series.
    There had to be a special reason why Sam was chosen as Lucifer's vessel.
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