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I want to know where they're going to get the human bone. Especiallyif the person has to be as good as theLeviathanare evil. Pretty much everyone we've seen even close to that have already died and been burned. Which means they're either going to have to find a good person and kill them or at least maim them to get a bone.

True, he could fit the fallen angel part if it weren't for Cas (or Anna and Uriel, were they still alive) but I would argue he better fits the ruler of fallen humanity because neither Cas (or Anna/Uriel) could have fit that position in return. As Libra so aptly pointed out, more so than even a king, demons thought of Lucifer as their version of God. Furthermore, while you're right that he was trapped in his cage, that didn't stop him from giving commands and being worshiped so it would seem that geography has little to do with actual position.

libra113 wrote:

I don't know how much humanity Gore had given her methods as a ghost. She might have had good intentions in trying to keep the kid ghosts in check but she didn't really have a lot of good to her in her methods. As for Mary all she did was hang around in that house. There's no evidence that she haunted it or interacted (or even tried to interact) with people in the house. That's kinda the key. The more a ghost uses their powers, the more emotional they get (especiallynegativeemotions like anger) the faster they backslide. Still, as that one ghost told Bobby the time scale isdifferentfor everyone and judging by Bobby's recent actions he's speeding up the process a great deal.

As for the Lucifer thing, Lucifer wasn't the king of Hell, he was their version of God. Thequoterefers to whoever is the current king (or queen) of Hell at any given time.

Not disagreeing with you on the ghost subject. It's all pretty much speculation anyways since the writers never really went into much detail about either Gore's or Mary's pasts as ghosts. Fact of the matter is, which we both now agree on, that Bobby is sliding much faster than others have. Not really much to argue on with that matter.

On the subject of Crowley and Lucifer, and the terms of king or God, it shouldn't really matter in my opinion- both terms are synonyms for all intensive purposes since the text says "ruler" which acts as an umbrella term for both. In the end, for me, it comes down to definitions and time frames. With definitions, calling Crowley the ruler of fallen humanity is like calling Michael the ruler of Heaven. He may have ruled during God's absence, but he wasn't the "true" ruler of Heaven- God was/is. Same thing goes for Crowley- he's occupying a position, but that doesn't make him the "true" ruler of fallen humanity. That position was literally created for Lucifer. Now, I'm not denying that it could be referring to Crowley since if God is truly omnipotent and omniscient than God would have foreseen Crowley taking Lucifer's place and would have had the text written for the Winchesters to eventually find and interpret. However, I would argue that the key is, as you've perhaps unintentionally suggested, about time frames. Does the text really refer to the current ruler? If so, where does it say that? To my interpretation there was no defined time narrative included in the text which makes me wonder.

lachlan_j_g wrote:

technically Lucifer was still an angel, so he wouldn't be the king of fallen humanity because angels weren't human. demons, on the other hand, were once human

Interesting discussion point. Does something, or someone, have to be of the same nature to actually rule a species? Technically, God is the ruler of the universe, but there is no existing life underneath (save for perhaps Death) that comes even close to matching God's nature or power. Hence, I would argue that it doesn't matter that Lucifer is an angel- he could be a beetle for all it matters. The position was created for him and demons accepted him as their ruler/king/God. Once again, it just comes back to what time frame the text was referring to and what the definition of ruler means.

Edited on 05/12/2012 1:28pm

True, he could fit the fallen angel part if it weren't for Cas (or Anna and Uriel, were they still alive) but I would argue he better fits the ruler of fallen humanity because neither Cas (or Anna/Uriel) could have fit that position in return. As Libra so aptly pointed out, more so than even a king, demons thought of Lucifer as their version of God. Furthermore, while you're right that he was trapped in his cage, that didn't stop him from giving commands and being worshiped so it would seem that geography has little to do with actual position.

libra113 wrote:

I don't know how much humanity Gore had given her methods as a ghost. She might have had good intentions in trying to keep the kid ghosts in check but she didn't really have a lot of good to her in her methods. As for Mary all she did was hang around in that house. There's no evidence that she haunted it or interacted (or even tried to interact) with people in the house. That's kinda the key. The more a ghost uses their powers, the more emotional they get (especiallynegativeemotions like anger) the faster they backslide. Still, as that one ghost told Bobby the time scale isdifferentfor everyone and judging by Bobby's recent actions he's speeding up the process a great deal.

As for the Lucifer thing, Lucifer wasn't the king of Hell, he was their version of God. Thequoterefers to whoever is the current king (or queen) of Hell at any given time.

Not disagreeing with you on the ghost subject. It's all pretty much speculation anyways since the writers never really went into much details about either Gore's or Mary's pasts as ghosts. Fact of the matter is, which we both now agree on, that Bobby is sliding much faster than others have. Not really much to argue on with that matter.

On the subject of Crowley and Lucifer, and the terms of king or God, it shouldn't really matter in my opinion- both terms are synonyms for all intensive purposes since the text says "ruler" which acts as an umbrella term for both. In the end, for me, it comes down to definitions and time frames. With definitions, to me, calling Crowley the ruler of fallen humanity is like calling Michael the ruler of Heaven. He may have ruled during God's absence, but he wasn't the "true" ruler of Heaven- God was/is. Same thing goes for Crowley- he's occupying a position, but that doesn't make him the "true" ruler of fallen humanity. That position was literally created for Lucifer. Now, I'm not denying that it could be referring to Crowley since if God is truly omnipotent and omniscient than God would have foreseen Crowley taking Lucifer's place and would have had the text written for the Winchesters to eventually find and interpret. However, I would argue that the key is, as you've perhaps unintentionally suggested, about time frames. Does the text really refer to the current ruler? If so, where does it say that? To my interpretation there was no defined time narrative included in the text which makes me wonder.

lachlan_j_g wrote:

technically Lucifer was still an angel, so he wouldn't be the king of fallen humanity because angels weren't human. demons, on the other hand, were once human

Interesting discussion point. Does something, or someone, have to be of the same nature to actually rule a species? Technically, God is the ruler of the universe, but there is no existing life underneath (save for perhaps Death) that comes even close to matching God's nature or power. Hence, I would argue that it doesn't matter that Lucifer is an angel- he could be a beetle for all it matters. The position was created for him and demons accepted him as their ruler/king/God. Once again, it just comes back to what time frame the text was referring to and what the definition of ruler means.

I REALLY don't think Lucifer is going to play into the Leviathan scenario. I'm kind of expecting the Winchesters to kill Dick, but without a leader (since they got rid of Edgar, who was second in command) the Leviathans essentially lose the leash that Dick provided them and go nuts, much like the demons dd in season 3 after Azazel died and before Lilith took over.

I don't want Lucifer or Michael to come back and magically solve everything. The Apocalypse storyline is over, and even though season 4 and 5 were great seasons, fans need to just accept that the series is moving on. Keep in mind that Lucifer's vessel, Nick, got burned up after he transferred himself into Sam, so even if Luci DID return in physical form, he'd have to be played by another actor, and NO ONE can top Mark Pallegrino. We were given a treat with 4 episodes in season 7 featuring Mark as HalLucifer. Isn't that enough? Lilith, Yellow Eyes, Alistair, and Ruby 2.0 were all great characters as well, and they all re-appeared as hallucinations (or, in Ruby's case, an actress married to Sam) If anyone needs to come back, it's the Amazons (their episode was the most disappointing of the season, and there are at least a dozen of those ladies still out there) or the Alpha Vamp ("see you next season.") since the vamp said he was raising an army to go to war.

Lol, I think Edgar kind of hinted at that problem when him and the alpha vamp were discussing numbers. Big Daddy V seemed to be rather shocked that 7 billion didn't seem like high enough a number when Edgar said "only 7 billion". Maybe that's where some of the possible discontent between Edgar and Dick, which was hinted at in the previous episode, comes from. Maybe Edgar is looking at things from a long term perspective and thinks that Dick's plan can only work for so long.

Tyrathius wrote:

I'm also having trouble understanding why Alpha Vampire was able to put up a decent fight against Edgar when two angels couldn't, when Castiel, a single angel, smote an entire warehouse full of monsters (including several alphas) last season. I'm not sure if the writers are having trouble deciding how powerful leviathans should be or if they just didn't consider the ramifications of Edgar killing those two last week.

Hmmm, you're assuming Castiel smote an entire warehouse of monsters and alphas though. He only said he would handle the problem (which is quite vague when you think about it), and this was still at the time when he was working with Crowley. In all likelihood he probably just transported them to wherever Crowley decided to move his operations to. In reference to Cas dealing with an entire diner of Eve's children, as Libra pointed out, there are certainly stronger and weaker versions of angels, demons, leviathans and monsters. In the episode last week, we saw a Leviathan that is possibly as strong as Dick go against two minor level angels. Not really much of a contest, especially given that it was a surprise attack against the angels who had literally only seconds to respond to a threat none of their kind had ever faced before.

Even more importantly, remember that the alpha vampire isn't some random vampire- he's, well, the alpha vampire. It makes sense that they would be on par with each other given that they both come from the same bloodline. That's not to mention Edgar's comment about "rock, paper, scissors- leviathan beats angel". There are plenty of examples in the animal kingdom where certain species of animal or reptile can/could win out against another species (take a mongoose against a cobra snake for example), and yet be taken out by another species (such as an eagle getting the drop on a mongoose) which still wouldn't fair well against the species the mongoose can handle (E.G- a cobra, if it felt threatened, could successfully attack an eagle if it was on the ground and not paying attention). Maybe not the best animals to use for an analogy but hopefully the point makes sense. in this case, one would assume the Leviathans are "rock" (what with being the first of the earth), the angels are scissors (given that they are God's weapons on earth- sharp and dangerous or whatever) and demons are paper (something constructed which used to be something else). Angels can beat demons, leviathan can beat angels, and demons can beat leviathan (they just don't know it yet).

Who knows, maybe God allowed for the existence of all three entities so as to act as a check on one another in case one became too corrupted - kind of the way various levels of government act as a check on one another (think of the senate, congress and the executive branches of government in the U.S).

Tyrathius wrote:

Somehow I don't think Crowley is as trapped as the end of the episode made him out to be. When Bobby tried to bind him in WAB, he merely sent a hellhound on him and forced him to release him. While a hellhound might not be that effective against a leviathan, I doubt Crowley is stupid enough to port into an enemy's lair without some means of getting out. Then again, I do tend to give Crowley more credit than the leviathans, but he appears to be free again next episode, and letting him go is just about the most stupid thing the leviathans could have done.

That raises a great question about whether demons (or angels or reapers for that matter) have a choice to answer a summoning (as if it were like answering a phone for us) or whether they are literally pulled to the destination they are being summoned. In most cases that we've seen (E.G- Yellow Eyes being summoned by John, Dean summoning Tessa, Sam summoning Balthazar, or Bobby summoning his reaper) none of the entities seem to have a choice about it... that is unless they were simply curious and not aware of who was summoning them in the first place.

One way or another, there are more than a couple reasons you could be right. Maybe, as you suggested, Crowley has his hell hound with him. Maybe, as I suggested, Dick doesn't feel he needs to fear Crowley's blood because Crowley isn't the true ruler of fallen humanity. Or maybe, given the "paper, rock, scissors" comment, Crowley is able to do some last ditch maneuvering and escape because he has an edge against Dick that even he wasn't previously aware of. It'll be interesting to see one way or another though.

Tyrathius wrote:

The leviathan/Eve connection was brought up, but went nowhere. They basically said what we already knew. Shes like a leviathan except she's not. I think they could have done a bit more with that.

I agree that it was vague, but I wouldn't say it didn't reveal anything to us about the connection between the two. Supernatural is infamous for hinting at things and then leaving the rest up to the imagination of the audience for several seasons which I both love and hate the writers for. Edgar's comment about the alpha vamp being a mutt, and what we saw of "dead Eve" still producing eggs at the end of season 6, might provide some more clues about what the relationship between Eve and the Leviathans is. Indeed, the "mutt" comment seems to suggest that the Leviathan are a more "pure" form of monster, whatever that means.

Edited on 05/12/2012 1:24pm

True, he could fit the fallen angel part if it weren't for Cas (or Anna and Uriel, were they still alive) but I would argue he better fits the ruler of fallen humanity because neither Cas (or Anna/Uriel) could have fit that position in return. As Libra so aptly pointed out, more so than even a king, demons thought of Lucifer as their version of God. Furthermore, while you're right that he was trapped in his cage, that didn't stop him from giving commands and being worshiped so it would seem that geography has little to do with actual position.

libra113 wrote:

I don't know how much humanity Gore had given her methods as a ghost. She might have had good intentions in trying to keep the kid ghosts in check but she didn't really have a lot of good to her in her methods. As for Mary all she did was hang around in that house. There's no evidence that she haunted it or interacted (or even tried to interact) with people in the house. That's kinda the key. The more a ghost uses their powers, the more emotional they get (especiallynegativeemotions like anger) the faster they backslide. Still, as that one ghost told Bobby the time scale isdifferentfor everyone and judging by Bobby's recent actions he's speeding up the process a great deal.

As for the Lucifer thing, Lucifer wasn't the king of Hell, he was their version of God. Thequoterefers to whoever is the current king (or queen) of Hell at any given time.

Not disagreeing with you on the ghost subject. It's all pretty much speculation anyways since the writers never really went into much detail about either Gore's or Mary's pasts as ghosts. Fact of the matter is, which we both now agree on, that Bobby is sliding much faster than others have. Not really much to argue on with that matter.

On the subject of Crowley and Lucifer, and the terms of king or God, it shouldn't really matter in my opinion- both terms are synonyms for all intensive purposes since the text says "ruler" which acts as an umbrella term for both. In the end, for me, it comes down to definitions and time frames. With definitions, calling Crowley the ruler of fallen humanity is like calling Michael the ruler of Heaven. He may have ruled during God's absence, but he wasn't the "true" ruler of Heaven- God was/is. Same thing goes for Crowley- he's occupying a position, but that doesn't make him the "true" ruler of fallen humanity. That position was literally created for Lucifer. Now, I'm not denying that it could be referring to Crowley since if God is truly omnipotent and omniscient than God would have foreseen Crowley taking Lucifer's place and would have had the text written for the Winchesters to eventually find and interpret. However, I would argue that the key is, as you've perhaps unintentionally suggested, about time frames. Does the text really refer to the current ruler? If so, where does it say that? To my interpretation there was no defined time narrative included in the text which makes me wonder.

lachlan_j_g wrote:

technically Lucifer was still an angel, so he wouldn't be the king of fallen humanity because angels weren't human. demons, on the other hand, were once human

Interesting discussion point. Does something, or someone, have to be of the same nature to actually rule a species? Technically, God is the ruler of the universe, but there is no existing life underneath (save for perhaps Death) that comes even close to matching God's nature or power. Hence, I would argue that it doesn't matter that Lucifer is an angel- he could be a beetle for all it matters. The position was created for him and demons accepted him as their ruler/king/God. Once again, it just comes back to what time frame the text was referring to and what the definition of ruler means.

Well, as I said in another post the food that contaminated will eventually been consumed (or spoil on the shelves) and it's doubtful (without a highly compelling reason) that whoever inherit's Dick's human fortune would continue to make more. It's also likely that Sam and Dean (or someone) will leak word to the press that the food isn't good and it will all be pulled and whatnot.

Either way it will pass sooner or later and those effected will return to normal once the stuff wears off.

Umm, in "Supernatural" demons used to be human at one time. Their time in Hell turns them into demons. That was established way back in like season three.

Well I assume the bone becomes the weapon. So if you want a blade you need a shin or arm bone sharped with an edge. Even if that's not the case, you take even a pinky bone and that person isn't going to have a pinky (or at least is going to lose a tip).

Don't think they want to spend all of next season making up either of the guys to look like they don't have a pinky tip.

Meh, they always end as cliffhangers. No surprise there really. And yeah, that's kind of what I think could happen. I'm not saying it will, just that the possibility exists.

vampman87 wrote:

The Apocalypse storyline is over, and even though season 4 and 5 were great seasons, fans need to just accept that the series is moving on. Keep in mind that Lucifer's vessel, Nick, got burned up after he transferred himself into Sam, so even if Luci DID return in physical form, he'd have to be played by another actor, and NO ONE can top Mark Pallegrino. We were given a treat with 4 episodes in season 7 featuring Mark as HalLucifer. Isn't that enough?

Nope. It's common belief that Nick's body got burned up (I've heard it suggested several times before), but I've never really understood where that idea came from (unless someone in the show mentioned that his body was cremated afterwards and I simply didn't hear it). Lucifer simply dispossessed Nick for Sam and left his body lying on the floor of the apartment they were in in Detriot. All Lucifer would have had to have done was reposes the body from the morgue, or wherever it had been buried, or un-cremate the remains and presto- Nick's body is good to go again.

libra113 wrote:

I gather you like the Lucifer character very much and would love to see him return but, I'm sorry, I don't see it happening. I don't see him, Micheal or even Adam every appearing again (aside from a pre episode recap) and certainly not in connection to what's going on now.

Well, let me be clear, to both yourself and vampman. I'm not suggesting this theory because I "want" Lucifer to come back. Don't get me wrong, I loved Pellegrino's performance too, but I have no over bearing desire to see him returned which is blinding me from other obvious truths (a subtle suggestion which I find to be somewhat hypocritical since "certain people" suggesting it could be accused of the same thing). If I'm wrong, so be it- it won't be the first time and it won't be the last. It just that there is some evidence to suggest Lucifer might be free already:

1- Castiel's statement in the season opener about keeping Michael in Lucifer's cage, but mentioning nothing about Lucifer being kept in the cage as well.

2- (As RC noted in a previous thread) Sam's hallucination of Lucifer actually talked to itself while Sam was out of earshot- something a hallucination shouldn't really do.

3- We know nothing of how soulless Sam was freed from the cage in the first place. Both Cas and Crowley claimed they were responsible, but neither explained how they went about doing so. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that something else went wrong during, or after, his (possibly intentional soulless) release, like Lucifer also getting out.

4- The writers of SPN have proven themselves to be huge fans of misdirection. Having Lucifer actually be real and free, rather than just a hallucination, would pretty much fall into the category of misdirection.

Furthermore, I disagree with this belief that if he were to return he would for some reason have to be the primary antagonist again. Hell, if Chuck truly was God (which I am not at all conceding since it was left wide open to interpretation) then God was simply a side player in seasons 4 and 5. Why couldn't the same be done with Lucifer for a short time?

Tyrathius wrote:

Perhaps they could have come up with a better way to phrase it than the "Ruler of Fallen Humanity", but I think having Crowley makes more sense than Lucifer. With Crowley, the weapon is formed by a human, a demon, a monster, and an angel, which fits better than a human, two angels and a monster. Why exactly the leviathans are vulnerable to this is anyone's guess, but hey, at least it gives some bit of relevance to the Crowley/Meg arc.

Haha, now that, I will give you, is a good point.

Edited on 05/12/2012 2:33pm
Edited 2 total times.

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