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Official Discussion Thread: There Will Be Blood (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [41]May 12, 2012
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    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:


    "On the subject of Crowley being the leader of fallen humanity I have a thought. Everyone seems to be assuming that Crowley is the key here. Yet, the text that this quote comes from was written when Lucifer was, or at least eventually was going to become (if we assume God created Lucifer knowing he would eventually rebel) the king of Hell. Crowley only took Lucifer's place in Hell; he is not, however, the actual leader of fallen humanity- he's just filling a vacant position. As such, what if it's not Crowley's blood the brothers need, but instead Lucifer's?"


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Very interesting points! And they still need the bone of a righteous person. And it's not going to come from Sam or Dean, so the source is still a mystery. Here is a scenario. The finale is going to be a cliff hangar, so I doubt they finish off the Leviathan. Next week they get the bone and Crowley's blood. They think they have all the ingredients and go head to head with the Leviathan,,,and nothing happens. Then it dawns on them that they needed Lucifer's blood, not Crowley's. That would make a heck of a kickoff episode for next season.



    Meh, they always end as cliffhangers. No surprise there really. And yeah, that's kind of what I think could happen. I'm not saying it will, just that the possibility exists.


    vampman87 wrote:
    The Apocalypse storyline is over, and even though season 4 and 5 were great seasons, fans need to just accept that the series is moving on. Keep in mind that Lucifer's vessel, Nick, got burned up after he transferred himself into Sam, so even if Luci DID return in physical form, he'd have to be played by another actor, and NO ONE can top Mark Pallegrino. We were given a treat with 4 episodes in season 7 featuring Mark as HalLucifer. Isn't that enough?


    Nope. It's common belief that Nick's body got burned up (I've heard it suggested several times before), but I've never really understood where that idea came from (unless someone in the show mentioned that his body was cremated afterwards and I simply didn't hear it). Lucifer simply dispossessed Nick for Sam and left his body lying on the floor of the apartment they were in in Detriot. All Lucifer would have had to have done was reposes the body from the morgue, or wherever it had been buried, or un-cremate the remains and presto- Nick's body is good to go again.


    libra113 wrote:


    I gather you like the Lucifer character very much and would love to see him return but, I'm sorry, I don't see it happening. I don't see him, Micheal or even Adam every appearing again (aside from a pre episode recap) and certainly not in connection to what's going on now.



    Well, let me be clear, to both yourself and vampman. I'm not suggesting this theory because I "want" Lucifer to come back. Don't get me wrong, I loved Pellegrino's performance too, but I have no over bearing desire to see him returned which is blinding me from other obvious truths (a subtle suggestion which I find to be somewhat hypocritical since "certain people" suggesting it could be accused of the same thing). If I'm wrong, so be it- it won't be the first time and it won't be the last. It just that there is some evidence to suggest Lucifer might be free already:


    1- Castiel's statement in the season opener about keeping Michael in Lucifer's cage, but mentioning nothing about Lucifer being kept in the cage as well.


    2- (As RC noted in a previous thread) Sam's hallucination of Lucifer actually talked to itself while Sam was out of earshot- something a hallucination shouldn't really do.


    3- We know nothing of how soulless Sam was freed from the cage in the first place. Both Cas and Crowley claimed they were responsible, but neither explained how they went about doing so. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that something else went wrong during, or after, his (possibly intentional soulless) release, like Lucifer also getting out.


    4- The writers of SPN have proven themselves to be huge fans of misdirection. Having Lucifer actually be real and free, rather than just a hallucination, would pretty much fall into the category of misdirection.


    Furthermore, I disagree with this belief that if he were to return he would for some reason have to be the primary antagonist again. Hell, if Chuck truly was God (which I am not at all conceding since it was left wide open to interpretation) then God was simply a side player in seasons 4 and 5. Why couldn't the same be done with Lucifer for a short time?


    Tyrathius wrote:


    Perhaps they could have come up with a better way to phrase it than the "Ruler of Fallen Humanity", but I think having Crowley makes more sense than Lucifer. With Crowley, the weapon is formed by a human, a demon, a monster, and an angel, which fits better than a human, two angels and a monster. Why exactly the leviathans are vulnerable to this is anyone's guess, but hey, at least it gives some bit of relevance to the Crowley/Meg arc.



    Haha, now that, I will give you, is a good point.



    Well, given that Nick's body is nowhere in sight once he jumps to Sam it can be assumed it was totallydestroyed(plus the fact that he was barely hanging on as it was it's alogicalconclusion).


    As for Chuck being God, Kripke confirmed it, the actor who played Chuck confirmed it a bunch of other people who actually work on the showconfirmedit. Can't see needing much more than that.


    As for Lucifer returning, if he's not going to be the main bad guy what would be the point? He hates humans, wants them all dead but he comes back and does what exactly? Gets a nice apartment and becomes a deli owner? What? Lucifer is an evil fallen angel with a major hate on for human kind. If he's not trying to kill all of the human race he serves no purpose.


    Putting in a twist just for the purpose of throwing in a twist is the very thing ruining movies and tv today and I really don't see them bringing Lucifer back just for kicks.


    Ever consider that the things you point out are misdirection to make people think he's coming back when he's not?

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [42]May 12, 2012
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    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Actually, when Lucifer was first mentioned (in "Sin City") it was said that most demons didn't even believe him. He was a myth to them. I doubt even the most loyal had personal contact with him (aside perhaps Yellow Eyes and then only through corpses and only near the point where his cage opened into Earth).



    Interesting discussion. 3 points:


    First, Casey didn't say most demons didn't believe in Lucifer, she said most had never seen him. There is a difference.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwozYZbzBY8


    Dean: you mean Lucifer is really real?


    Casey: Well, no one has actually seen him, but they say he made us into what we are and they say that he'll return.


    Dean: Oh, yeah? And uh...you believe that?


    Casey: I've got faith.


    Secondly, and more importantly- contact or lack of it aside, one could argue/speculate that demons still followed Lilith and Yellow Eyes because both claimed to be working on behalf of Lucifer. It is true that Casey noted there was a debate among demons about whether or not it was supposed to Lilith or Sam who would ultimately lead his army (something we now know was also a misdirect) but, in the end, it was still the possibility of his existence that tethered their actions together. Same thing applies to angels as well. Despite the fact that the majority of angels had/have never even seen God (as Anna noted in season 4), they still chose to follow Michael because they believed he was acting on behalf of God. Think about how many religious fanatics have led masses in the past by claiming they were following God's will (the Crusades come to mind here for an obvious example). Religious masses don't follow leaders because they have physically seen the Big Guy, they follow leaders because they, rightly or wrongly, have faith which does not require "seeing" as a prerequisite to "believing".


    Lastly, Lilith would have also have had contact with Lucifer given that she was supposedly the first demon he ever created. Given that she somehow, and at some point, ended up "deep in the pit" (either she was there from the beginning or was sent there by angels), she would have been there with at least a few other demons. Thus, she would have had time to discuss and plan strategy with said other demons. As such, whether they knew it or not, the activity of most demons was being dictated by a plan Lucifer, with the equal help of Michael and other top level angels, orchestrated. Hence, Lucifer technically ruled through proxy.



    gatoraderising wrote:


    Still Lucifer doesnt rule Hell from his cage. The only time we know he ever give a command from his cage is when he told YED to find him a special kid.


    See above.


    libra113 wrote:


    As for time frame and who was what then. There's no way to know who would be in what role when (or if) the Leviathan broke free so it's not a question of their being one candidate for each role in what's written. Whoever was ruling Hell at any given time would fit the bill for that part. As would any fallen angel for that part and any Alpha, etc... That's why such things rarely use names only vague descriptions.



    Hmmm, can you explain to me why, if God was/is omniscient, that God wouldn't be able to know if and when the leviathans would break free and, at the same time, not know who would be in the role of "the ruler of fallen humanity" when that event occurred? Because to me it seems logical that being omniscient would give one that knowledge and power which is one of the reasons why the definitions and time frames of the words are important. After all, when it comes to there being a number of candidates or only one, there is a difference between "The ruler of fallen humanity" and "a ruler of fallen humanity"- "the" suggests only one candidate and "a" suggests a plurality of choice. I have no problem with the fact that the text says "a fallen angel" which could be a couple different angels. Likewise, I also have no problem that it says "the father of fallen beasts" which could refer to a number of the alphas because beasts is also plural. But, if you look at the text and listen to Sam and Dean, it doesn't say "a fallen ruler of humanity", it says "The ruler of fallen humanity" which suggests there can only be one which is also another reason why the time frame reference and meaning of the words come into play.


    Once again, I'm not saying it won't be Crowley, I'm just saying there is a small possibility that it might not be him. While it doesn't matter to me personally, I don't see why that's such a huge pill for anyone to swallow. Is it unlikely? Yes. Is it impossible, given what we already know? I would argue, no.


    I wouldn'tnecessarilysay he knew for sure they WOULD get out just set things up 'just in case'. As for not knowing who would be in charge of Hell at the time perhaps that's not the point so much as theingredientsbeing generic enough so as not to over complicate things for the good side. I mean why make it one particular entity (demon, fallen angel, Alpha, etc...) when it can be anyone?


    Is ittheoreticallypossible? I guess so but as someone else pointed out Lucifer is really a fallen angel not a demon and he wasn't an active king of Hell so it's very unlikely. Apparently, from what we've seen the king of Hell is an active office who actually commands demons directly and orders things in Hell and while Lucifer COULD have done that through others the OFFICE of king of Hell had to be held by someone (even if they're merely a figure head) and that person is the one the text isreferringto. Sorry it doesn't say the blood of Crowley in particular but I've never heard of anything like that being that specific.

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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [43]May 12, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:
    Actually, when Lucifer was first mentioned (in "Sin City") it was said that most demons didn't even believe him. He was a myth to them. I doubt even the most loyal had personal contact with him (aside perhaps Yellow Eyes and then only through corpses and only near the point where his cage opened into Earth).


    Interesting discussion. 3 points:


    First, Casey didn't say most demons didn't believe in Lucifer, she said most had never seen him. There is a difference.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwozYZbzBY8


    Dean: you mean Lucifer is really real?


    Casey: Well, no one has actually seen him, but they say he made us into what we are and they say that he'll return.


    Dean: Oh, yeah? And uh...you believe that?


    Casey: I've got faith.


    Secondly, and more importantly- contact or lack of it aside, one could argue/speculate that demons still followed Lilith and Yellow Eyes because both claimed to be working on behalf of Lucifer. It is true that Casey noted there was a debate among demons about whether or not it was supposed to Lilith or Sam who would ultimately lead his army (something we now know was also a misdirect) but, in the end, it was still the possibility of his existence that tethered their actions together. Same thing applies to angels as well. Despite the fact that the majority of angels had/have never even seen God (as Anna noted in season 4), they still chose to follow Michael because they believed he was acting on behalf of God. Think about how many religious fanatics have led masses in the past by claiming they were following God's will (the Crusades come to mind here for an obvious example). Religious masses don't follow leaders because they have physically seen the Big Guy, they follow leaders because they, rightly or wrongly, have faith which does not require "seeing" as a prerequisite to "believing".


    Lastly, Lilith would have also have had contact with Lucifer given that she was supposedly the first demon he ever created. Given that she somehow, and at some point, ended up "deep in the pit" (either she was there from the beginning or was sent there by angels), she would have been there with at least a few other demons. Thus, she would have had time to discuss and plan strategy with said other demons. As such, whether they knew it or not, the activity of most demons was being dictated by a plan Lucifer, with the equal help of Michael and other top level angels, orchestrated. Hence, Lucifer technically ruled through proxy.


    gatoraderising wrote:
    Still Lucifer doesnt rule Hell from his cage. The only time we know he ever give a command from his cage is when he told YED to find him a special kid.


    See above.


    libra113 wrote:
    As for time frame and who was what then. There's no way to know who would be in what role when (or if) the Leviathan broke free so it's not a question of their being one candidate for each role in what's written. Whoever was ruling Hell at any given time would fit the bill for that part. As would any fallen angel for that part and any Alpha, etc... That's why such things rarely use names only vague descriptions.


    Hmmm, can you explain to me why, if God was/is omniscient, that God wouldn't be able to know if and when the leviathans would break free and, at the same time, not know who would be in the role of "the ruler of fallen humanity" when that event occurred? Because to me it seems logical that being omniscient would give one that knowledge and power which is one of the reasons why the definitions and time frames of the words are important. After all, when it comes to there being a number of candidates or only one, there is a difference between "The ruler of fallen humanity" and "a ruler of fallen humanity"- "the" suggests only one candidate and "a" suggests a plurality of choice. I have no problem with the fact that the text says "a fallen angel" which could be a couple different angels. Likewise, I also have no problem that it says "the father of fallen beasts" which could refer to a number of the alphas because beasts is also plural. But, if you look at the text and listen to Sam and Dean, it doesn't say "a fallen ruler of humanity", it says "The ruler of fallen humanity" which suggests there can only be one which is also another reason why the time frame reference and meaning of the words come into play.


    Once again, I'm not saying it won't be Crowley, I'm just saying there is a small possibility that it might not be him. While it doesn't matter to me personally, I don't see why that's such a huge pill for anyone to swallow. Is it unlikely? Yes. Is it impossible, given what we already know? I would argue, no.



    Edit- Sorry, had to re-post this after I initially posted it. Something happened to my original one.

    Edited on 05/12/2012 5:57pm
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  • Avatar of WickedNix

    WickedNix

    [44]May 12, 2012
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    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I thought that but then I can't imagine what bone they could take from him that wouldn't leave him horrably maimed. They keep talking about the weapon like it's going to be a knife in which case he would have to loose an arm bone or even a shin bone, don't see that happening unless Cas can heal him and they can have it both ways.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    They wouldn't have to severely maim someone. The tablet said the bone of a righteous man mixed or washed in the three bloods. Didn't say how big it had to be. Could be the tiny bone at the tip of someones pinkie finger.




    To me it would make the most sense if Dean was chosen as the righteous man.


    A rib could be used. Ribs are expendable. Plus the irony of using Dean's rib wouldn't be lost. Dean has always tried to do the right thing even when he knew he wouldn't like the outcome. Otherwise, what criteria could they use tofind a righteous man? He wouldn't be wearing a sign on his back. I thinkCastiel will have a clear moment andwill informDean that he's the righteous man. At least that's what I would like to see happen. Smile

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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [45]May 12, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    Well, given that Nick's body is nowhere in sight once he jumps to Sam it can be assumed it was totally destroyed (plus the fact that he was barely hanging on as it was it's a logical conclusion).



    Hmm, I just re-watched that. Originally I thought one of the demons Sam killed was Nick's body, so that was an assumption on my part. Lol, my bad...don't I look smart now. However, if you do watch it, you don't actually see what happens to Nick's body. It is engulfed in a plethora of light as Lucifer is leaving, but we don't actually get to see the side of the room Nick was on afterwards. We only see the room from the angle that shows Dean, Sam and the dead demons. The other half, where Nick would be laying, is cut out. I'll admit though, Dean does look around like he can't see Nick after the light show so it could very well be that the body was burned up.


    libra113 wrote:


    As for Chuck being God, Kripke confirmed it, the actor who played Chuck confirmed it a bunch of other people who actually work on the show confirmed it. Can't see needing much more than that.



    Not saying you're wrong, but as I've never seen that before could you provide a link to an article or video where Kripke himself confirms that Chuck was God?


    However, if he was, that proves my point that just because an entity is all powerful does not mean they have to be the major protagonist or antagonist to advance a plot line.


    libra113 wrote:


    As for Lucifer returning, if he's not going to be the main bad guy what would be the point? He hates humans, wants them all dead but he comes back and does what exactly? Gets a nice apartment and becomes a deli owner? What? Lucifer is an evil fallen angel with a major hate on for human kind. If he's not trying to kill all of the human race he serves no purpose.



    Lol, so characters are not allowed to grow and change based on the experiences they go through? You yourself have stated plenty of times that its unrealistic for characters not change based on different events they experience. Why should Lucifer be exempt from this rule, especially when he experienced a defeat as large as he did and especially when he, theoretically anyways, should have had the revelation that free will does, to an extent, exist based on said defeat?


    libra113 wrote:


    Putting in a twist just for the purpose of throwing in a twist is the very thing ruining movies and tv today and I really don't see them bringing Lucifer back just for kicks.



    Neither do I. But once again you're making assumptions and judgements about a move that hasn't even been made yet. You don't know that if they did bring him back it would just be for kicks. As I said, it could be done poorly or it could be done well, but I'm not going to judge something that hasn't occurred.


    libra113 wrote:


    Ever consider that the things you point out are misdirection to make people think he's coming back when he's not?



    Lol, I have actually. I don't know how many times I have to say it, but I am fully content with the fact that I am not always right and am more than capable of admitting that when it is proven beyond a doubt (unlike other people sometimes Wink).


    However, the definition of a misdirect is to make people think one thing, while subtly giving hints that something else may be about to occur (sort of like a Red Herring). The things I suggested fall into the category of subtle, not obvious. The writers of SPN have gone to great lengths to make the audience supposedly know that Sam was suffering from hallucinations of Lucifer and, as such, I'm not sure where you get the idea that Lucifer being real would be the misdirect.

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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [46]May 12, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:


    I wouldn't necessarily say he knew for sure they WOULD get out just set things up 'just in case'. As for not knowing who would be in charge of Hell at the time perhaps that's not the point so much as the ingredients being generic enough so as not to over complicate things for the good side. I mean why make it one particular entity (demon, fallen angel, Alpha, etc...) when it can be anyone?


    Is it theoretically possible? I guess so but as someone else pointed out Lucifer is really a fallen angel not a demon and he wasn't an active king of Hell so it's very unlikely. Apparently, from what we've seen the king of Hell is an active office who actually commands demons directly and orders things in Hell and while Lucifer COULD have done that through others the OFFICE of king of Hell had to be held by someone (even if they're merely a figure head) and that person is the one the text isreferringto. Sorry it doesn't say the blood of Crowley in particular but I've never heard of anything like that being that specific.



    Meh, it feels like we're just going around in circles now. We could continuing debating but it doesn't seem like either of us is going to change the other's mind, regardless of what we say. In the end one of us will be right and the other will be wrong, or the writers will some how manage to dodge the subject completely as they usually do. I'll just agree to amicably disagree Laughing


    I'm going to go and cook myself a steak.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [47]May 12, 2012
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    WickedNix wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I thought that but then I can't imagine what bone they could take from him that wouldn't leave him horrably maimed. They keep talking about the weapon like it's going to be a knife in which case he would have to loose an arm bone or even a shin bone, don't see that happening unless Cas can heal him and they can have it both ways.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    They wouldn't have to severely maim someone. The tablet said the bone of a righteous man mixed or washed in the three bloods. Didn't say how big it had to be. Could be the tiny bone at the tip of someones pinkie finger.




    To me it would make the most sense if Dean was chosen as the righteous man.


    A rib could be used. Ribs are expendable. Plus the irony of using Dean's rib wouldn't be lost. Dean has always tried to do the right thing even when he knew he wouldn't like the outcome. Otherwise, what criteria could they use tofind a righteous man? He wouldn't be wearing a sign on his back. I thinkCastiel will have a clear moment andwill informDean that he's the righteous man. At least that's what I would like to see happen. Smile


    I'm not asurgeonor anything but I would think removing a rib (non-magically) outside ahospital(or at least a doctor's office setting) would be very painful, bloody and lead to risk of death (especiallyif done by an unskilled person). I guess Cas could reach in a pull on out magically. Might be kind of neat in fact. Of course would that mess up the writing on his ribs to hide him from angels? Would that even matter now?

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [48]May 12, 2012
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    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    libra113 wrote:


    Well, given that Nick's body is nowhere in sight once he jumps to Sam it can be assumed it was totally destroyed (plus the fact that he was barely hanging on as it was it's a logical conclusion).



    Hmm, I just re-watched that. Originally I thought one of the demons Sam killed was Nick's body, so that was an assumption on my part. Lol, my bad...don't I look smart now. However, if you do watch it, you don't actually see what happens to Nick's body. It is engulfed in a plethora of light as Lucifer is leaving, but we don't actually get to see the side of the room Nick was on afterwards. We only see the room from the angle that shows Dean, Sam and the dead demons. The other half, where Nick would be laying, is cut out. I'll admit though, Dean does look around like he can't see Nick after the light show so it could very well be that the body was burned up.


    libra113 wrote:


    As for Chuck being God, Kripke confirmed it, the actor who played Chuck confirmed it a bunch of other people who actually work on the show confirmed it. Can't see needing much more than that.



    Not saying you're wrong, but as I've never seen that before could you provide a link to an article or video where Kripke himself confirms that Chuck was God?


    However, if he was, that proves my point that just because an entity is all powerful does not mean they have to be the major protagonist or antagonist to advance a plot line.


    libra113 wrote:


    As for Lucifer returning, if he's not going to be the main bad guy what would be the point? He hates humans, wants them all dead but he comes back and does what exactly? Gets a nice apartment and becomes a deli owner? What? Lucifer is an evil fallen angel with a major hate on for human kind. If he's not trying to kill all of the human race he serves no purpose.



    Lol, so characters are not allowed to grow and change based on the experiences they go through? You yourself have stated plenty of times that its unrealistic for characters not change based on different events they experience. Why should Lucifer be exempt from this rule, especially when he experienced a defeat as large as he did and especially when he, theoretically anyways, should have had the revelation that free will does, to an extent, exist based on said defeat?


    libra113 wrote:


    Putting in a twist just for the purpose of throwing in a twist is the very thing ruining movies and tv today and I really don't see them bringing Lucifer back just for kicks.



    Neither do I. But once again you're making assumptions and judgements about a move that hasn't even been made yet. You don't know that if they did bring him back it would just be for kicks. As I said, it could be done poorly or it could be done well, but I'm not going to judge something that hasn't occurred.


    libra113 wrote:


    Ever consider that the things you point out are misdirection to make people think he's coming back when he's not?



    Lol, I have actually. I don't know how many times I have to say it, but I am fully content with the fact that I am not always right and am more than capable of admitting that when it is proven beyond a doubt (unlike other people sometimes Wink).


    However, the definition of a misdirect is to make people think one thing, while subtly giving hints that something else may be about to occur (sort of like a Red Herring). The things I suggested fall into the category of subtle, not obvious. The writers of SPN have gone to great lengths to make the audience supposedly know that Sam was suffering from hallucinations of Lucifer and, as such, I'm not sure where you get the idea that Lucifer being real would be the misdirect.


    I haven't seen the scene in question in awhile so I don't recall but, again, given the condition Nick was in before it would seem logical to conclude that he burned up (or at very least would be in such a bad condition so as not to beusable).


    Iwouldn'teven have a clue how to do that kind of thing but I'm sure if you hit Google or Youtube it's there somewhere. Yes, but it's not the same in that he didn't spend an entire season trying to destroy the world. To have so goal oriented one season then come back another to be a background character wouldn't make sense. It would be like having Sauron show up in a "Lord of the Rings" follow and spend the whole movie picking flowers in the background or something. You can't go from being the major bad guy to just being the guy who hangs around for no reason.


    Yes, I would expect characters to change and grow but there's adifferencebetween that and having a character totally and radically become adifferentperson. Further, his hatred of humans IS his character and if that's gone he's not Lucifer anymore. It would be like the Joker showing up sane and no longer killing people. It wouldn't be the Joker anymore it would be some guy who LOOKS like the Joker and called himself the Joker but isn't (I should note they tried having the Riddler reform and they ended up making him a bad guy again because it was such a train wreck).


    Because they would probably expect some people to see it the way you're seeing it andespeciallyafter posts (which I'm sureexistthat far back) saying as much.


    I don't know it's like someone posted on here before if it were to turn out they need Lucifer's blood instead of Crowley, then what? I know a lot of people here were foaming at the mouth about the idea that anyone could just open the cage up and let him out (they were saying that if they did that it made the whole seals thing pointless) so what they spend all of next season trying to get him out, just to get his blood and make their weapon? Then what? We have another year of them hiding from Roman and his men while trying to actually free Lucifer again? Then they do and get his blood. Who's to say he doesn't want todestroythe human race again? They really going to risk releasing one massive evil just to destroy another? Don't see it working out that way.


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  • Avatar of RichardCarlso

    RichardCarlso

    [49]May 12, 2012
    • member since: 05/05/12
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    [QUOTE="libra113"]

    WickedNix wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I thought that but then I can't imagine what bone they could take from him that wouldn't leave him horrably maimed. They keep talking about the weapon like it's going to be a knife in which case he would have to loose an arm bone or even a shin bone, don't see that happening unless Cas can heal him and they can have it both ways.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    They wouldn't have to severely maim someone. The tablet said the bone of a righteous man mixed or washed in the three bloods. Didn't say how big it had to be. Could be the tiny bone at the tip of someones pinkie finger.




    To me it would make the most sense if Dean was chosen as the righteous man.


    A rib could be used. Ribs are expendable. Plus the irony of using Dean's rib wouldn't be lost. Dean has always tried to do the right thing even when he knew he wouldn't like the outcome. Otherwise, what criteria could they use tofind a righteous man? He wouldn't be wearing a sign on his back. I thinkCastiel will have a clear moment andwill informDean that he's the righteous man. At least that's what I would like to see happen.


    I have doubts about it being Dean. He's tried to do right sometimes, but he's far from righteous. Sam is even worse. Could be Kevin. How about Jimmy, Castiels vessel? In the episodes where Misha played Jimmy, Jimmy seemed like a pretty good guy.
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  • Avatar of WCSU1987

    WCSU1987

    [50]May 12, 2012
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    Did they directly say the material they are gathering is what will take the Lev.'s out? Question is will everything intertwine from past seasons. Can it be leading up to a big twist and characters from the past? I say Dick will be bibbed, find out Crowley is not in charge, Death plays a role, Dick's idea to eat the world flops, and the Lev.s scatter.

    Edited on 05/12/2012 9:55pm
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [51]May 12, 2012
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    [QUOTE="RichardCarlso"]

    libra113 wrote:


    WickedNix wrote:


    RichardCarlso wrote:


    I thought that but then I can't imagine what bone they could take from him that wouldn't leave him horrably maimed. They keep talking about the weapon like it's going to be a knife in which case he would have to loose an arm bone or even a shin bone, don't see that happening unless Cas can heal him and they can have it both ways.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    They wouldn't have to severely maim someone. The tablet said the bone of a righteous man mixed or washed in the three bloods. Didn't say how big it had to be. Could be the tiny bone at the tip of someones pinkie finger.




    To me it would make the most sense if Dean was chosen as the righteous man.


    A rib could be used. Ribs are expendable. Plus the irony of using Dean's rib wouldn't be lost. Dean has always tried to do the right thing even when he knew he wouldn't like the outcome. Otherwise, what criteria could they use tofind a righteous man? He wouldn't be wearing a sign on his back. I thinkCastiel will have a clear moment andwill informDean that he's the righteous man. At least that's what I would like to see happen.


    I have doubts about it being Dean. He's tried to do right sometimes, but he's far from righteous. Sam is even worse. Could be Kevin. How about Jimmy, Castiels vessel? In the episodes where Misha played Jimmy, Jimmy seemed like a pretty good guy.
    Well, we had thisdiscussionwhen the whole thing with the first seal came about and some people refused to consider John as righteous because he didn't read little Sam and Dean bedtime stories, tuck them in and night and all that. It's a very loose term and anyway I think thequotewas as good as the Leviathan are evil and if someone who hassacrificedeverything to hunt evil and given his life multiple times, etc... isn't good I don't know who is. No one said pure or perfect just good. Still, I suspect it will be someone dead that they dig up if only to avoid harming a living person.


    I thought it was pretty much implied in that same episode that once he took Cas on again that Jimmy would be no more and given that he's died and come back twice since then I doubt he's technically human anymore. Anyway, I doubt any one character is going to give more than one element to the weapon at a time. A fallen angel, the king of Hell, an alpha and the bone of a good human. Sounds about right.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [52]May 12, 2012
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    WCSU1987 wrote:


    Did they directly say the material they are gathering is what will take the Lev.'s out? Question is will everything intertwine from past seasons. Can it be leading up to a big twist and characters from the past? I say Dick will be bibbed, find out Crowley is not in charge, Death plays a role, Dick's idea to eat the world flops, and the Lev.s scatter.


    From what they said the blood is used on the bone then the bone is able to kill them.

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  • Avatar of smegmag

    smegmag

    [53]May 13, 2012
    • member since: 10/16/10
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    [QUOTE="Tyrathius"]

    Well, this was one of the better episodes this season. I'm still not very fond of the leviathans, they were awesome in their first couple episodes and then took a swandive into cartoon villainy shortly afterward. Their plan still doesn't seem very threatening to me. Great, you drug up all the humans so you can eat them and they won't do anything about it. What happens when you run out? 7 billion may seem like a lot, but if they're too lazy to so much as get up around I can't imagine they're going to keep reproducing.



    I agree they kinda overdid the formula. They need to dial back on it so humans can 1) reproduce and 2) work. They have much to learn about animal husbandry. I did think them riffing on high fructose corn syrup was hilarious and pretty accurate the stuff is evil.
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  • Avatar of smegmag

    smegmag

    [54]May 13, 2012
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    Tyrathius wrote:

    Well, this was one of the better episodes this season. I'm still not very fond of the leviathans, they were awesome in their first couple episodes and then took a swandive into cartoon villainy shortly afterward. Their plan still doesn't seem very threatening to me. Great, you drug up all the humans so you can eat them and they won't do anything about it. What happens when you run out? 7 billion may seem like a lot, but if they're too lazy to so much as get up around I can't imagine they're going to keep reproducing.


    I'm also having trouble understanding why Alpha Vampire was able to put up a decent fight against Edgar when two angels couldn't, when Castiel, a single angel, smote an entire warehouse full of monsters (including several alphas) last season. I'm not sure if the writers are having trouble deciding how powerful leviathans should be or if they just didn't consider the ramifications of Edgar killing those two last week.


    I did like the vampire plot here. Kind of sad that the Alpha Vampire managed to make a more convincing truce with the Winchesters in a single scene than Meg has in several episodes worth of trying. I don't think he'll be the big bad next season, but I think he will become a recurring threat a la Crowley in seasons 6 and 7.


    Somehow I don't think Crowley is as trapped as the end of the episode made him out to be. When Bobby tried to bind him in WAB, he merely sent a hellhound on him and forced him to release him. While a hellhound might not be that effective against a leviathan, I doubt Crowley is stupid enough to port into an enemy's lair without some means of getting out. Then again, I do tend to give Crowley more credit than the leviathans, but he appears to be free again next episode, and letting him go is just about the most stupid thing the leviathans could have done.


    The leviathan/Eve connection was brought up, but went nowhere. They basically said what we already knew. Shes like a leviathan except she's not. I think they could have done a bit more with that.


    Ghost Bobby is progressing rather quickly. Most ghosts have years, even decades or centuries, of being dead to become as powerful as they are, and Bobby's gone from barely able to move things to possessing people (one of the rarest powers for ghosts) in a couple of months. While I can understand their desire to wrap this up -Ghost Bobby is a season 7 plot, he'll likely either be killed for good or brought back to life at the end of this season or beginning of the next- it is a bit jarring.


    Overall I thought this was a decent episode. I always thought there was a whole lot more than could be done with the alphas in season 6, if they hadn't also been trying to juggle around Castiel and Crowley and Raphael and Eve and Lisa and Ben and Grandpa and whatnot at the same time. I hope it's something we get to see more of in season 8, though not necessarily as the main threat.



    I don't think Edgar dispatched the angels so easily because he's sooooo superior--I think it was because they fought sooooo BADLY. They just walked on and tried to smite him. Ignorance and arrogance are a bad combination. Like with Eve and Castiel in Mommy Dearest I guess the angels are cut off from their heavenly mojo or at least some of it. Doesn't mean they aren't strong or lightening fast or adept with angel swords, etc they just have to adapt their tactics to fighting an adversary with equal or superior abilities--Sam, Dean & other hunters do it all the time. Hell they can chop off heads and drop them in an ocean of borax or a black hole--not dead but pretty good.

    I am curious thou since since Eve was able to block Cas's teleportation but Crowley teleported out of the limo --if they can block that power or if Dick just let him go? And although they can absorb memories and skills (though not super special sparkly skills like Charly's hacking skills} they apparently can't absorb magic abilities otherwise they would have coopted Cas's angel abilities themselves. Don't know why I'm concerned about them, since looks like the have just one more SPN hour to go.
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  • Avatar of RichardCarlso

    RichardCarlso

    [55]May 13, 2012
    • member since: 05/05/12
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    [/QUOTE] Well, given that Nick's body is nowhere in sight once he jumps to Sam it can be assumed it was totallydestroyed(plus the fact that he was barely hanging on as it was it's alogicalconclusion).


    As for Chuck being God, Kripke confirmed it, the actor who played Chuck confirmed it a bunch of other people who actually work on the showconfirmedit. Can't see needing much more than that.


    As for Lucifer returning, if he's not going to be the main bad guy what would be the point? He hates humans, wants them all dead but he comes back and does what exactly? Gets a nice apartment and becomes a deli owner? What? Lucifer is an evil fallen angel with a major hate on for human kind. If he's not trying to kill all of the human race he serves no purpose.


    Putting in a twist just for the purpose of throwing in a twist is the very thing ruining movies and tv today and I really don't see them bringing Lucifer back just for kicks.


    Ever consider that the things you point out are misdirection to make people think he's coming back when he's not?

    [/QUOTE]

    I have never heard Kripke or anyone else confirm Chuck is God, either. Castiel referred to Chuck as a Prophet of The Lord.

    As for the Lucifer character, no one is saying he needs to be the focus for an entire season or that he needs to be in every episode. Even when he was out of the cage, we never actually saw the character that that much. Lucifer wasn't the main big bad character this season, but most fans were happy to see Pellegrino return in the role again. And what would be the point of him returning again? How about to seek revenge on Sam for putting him back in the Cage? And I never saw Nick's body destroyed, either. And even if it was, who says Lucifer couldn't restore it?
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [56]May 13, 2012
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    smegmag wrote:
    Tyrathius wrote:


    Well, this was one of the better episodes this season. I'm still not very fond of the leviathans, they were awesome in their first couple episodes and then took a swandive into cartoon villainy shortly afterward. Their plan still doesn't seem very threatening to me. Great, you drug up all the humans so you can eat them and they won't do anything about it. What happens when you run out? 7 billion may seem like a lot, but if they're too lazy to so much as get up around I can't imagine they're going to keep reproducing.


    I'm also having trouble understanding why Alpha Vampire was able to put up a decent fight against Edgar when two angels couldn't, when Castiel, a single angel, smote an entire warehouse full of monsters (including several alphas) last season. I'm not sure if the writers are having trouble deciding how powerful leviathans should be or if they just didn't consider the ramifications of Edgar killing those two last week.


    I did like the vampire plot here. Kind of sad that the Alpha Vampire managed to make a more convincing truce with the Winchesters in a single scene than Meg has in several episodes worth of trying. I don't think he'll be the big bad next season, but I think he will become a recurring threat a la Crowley in seasons 6 and 7.


    Somehow I don't think Crowley is as trapped as the end of the episode made him out to be. When Bobby tried to bind him in WAB, he merely sent a hellhound on him and forced him to release him. While a hellhound might not be that effective against a leviathan, I doubt Crowley is stupid enough to port into an enemy's lair without some means of getting out. Then again, I do tend to give Crowley more credit than the leviathans, but he appears to be free again next episode, and letting him go is just about the most stupid thing the leviathans could have done.


    The leviathan/Eve connection was brought up, but went nowhere. They basically said what we already knew. Shes like a leviathan except she's not. I think they could have done a bit more with that.


    Ghost Bobby is progressing rather quickly. Most ghosts have years, even decades or centuries, of being dead to become as powerful as they are, and Bobby's gone from barely able to move things to possessing people (one of the rarest powers for ghosts) in a couple of months. While I can understand their desire to wrap this up -Ghost Bobby is a season 7 plot, he'll likely either be killed for good or brought back to life at the end of this season or beginning of the next- it is a bit jarring.


    Overall I thought this was a decent episode. I always thought there was a whole lot more than could be done with the alphas in season 6, if they hadn't also been trying to juggle around Castiel and Crowley and Raphael and Eve and Lisa and Ben and Grandpa and whatnot at the same time. I hope it's something we get to see more of in season 8, though not necessarily as the main threat.


    I don't think Edgar dispatched the angels so easily because he's sooooo superior--I think it was because they fought sooooo BADLY. They just walked on and tried to smite him. Ignorance and arrogance are a bad combination. Like with Eve and Castiel in Mommy Dearest I guess the angels are cut off from their heavenly mojo or at least some of it. Doesn't mean they aren't strong or lightening fast or adept with angel swords, etc they just have to adapt their tactics to fighting an adversary with equal or superior abilities--Sam, Dean & other hunters do it all the time. Hell they can chop off heads and drop them in an ocean of borax or a black hole--not dead but pretty good. I am curious thou since since Eve was able to block Cas's teleportation but Crowley teleported out of the limo --if they can block that power or if Dick just let him go? And although they can absorb memories and skills (though not super special sparkly skills like Charly's hacking skills} they apparently can't absorb magic abilities otherwise they would have coopted Cas's angel abilities themselves. Don't know why I'm concerned about them, since looks like the have just one more SPN hour to go.
    I would think he just let Crowley go since, if I remember the scene correctly, he didn't really want to deal with him or have him around and he didn't see Crowley as a threat so there was no reason to hold him there.


    Still, this last episode they showed Dick using a devil's trap to make sure Crowley didn't leave so maybe their abilities work on angels but not demons. Angels andLeviathansare direct creations of God while demos are corrupted human (indirect creations of God) so maybe that plays a role. Hard to say.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [57]May 13, 2012
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    RichardCarlso wrote:


    Well, given that Nick's body is nowhere in sight once he jumps to Sam it can be assumed it was totallydestroyed(plus the fact that he was barely hanging on as it was it's alogicalconclusion).


    As for Chuck being God, Kripke confirmed it, the actor who played Chuck confirmed it a bunch of other people who actually work on the showconfirmedit. Can't see needing much more than that.


    As for Lucifer returning, if he's not going to be the main bad guy what would be the point? He hates humans, wants them all dead but he comes back and does what exactly? Gets a nice apartment and becomes a deli owner? What? Lucifer is an evil fallen angel with a major hate on for human kind. If he's not trying to kill all of the human race he serves no purpose.


    Putting in a twist just for the purpose of throwing in a twist is the very thing ruining movies and tv today and I really don't see them bringing Lucifer back just for kicks.


    Ever consider that the things you point out are misdirection to make people think he's coming back when he's not?


    [/QUOTE] I have never heard Kripke or anyone else confirm Chuck is God, either. Castiel referred to Chuck as a Prophet of The Lord. As for the Lucifer character, no one is saying he needs to be the focus for an entire season or that he needs to be in every episode. Even when he was out of the cage, we never actually saw the character that that much. Lucifer wasn't the main big bad character this season, but most fans were happy to see Pellegrino return in the role again. And what would be the point of him returning again? How about to seek revenge on Sam for putting him back in the Cage? And I never saw Nick's body destroyed, either. And even if it was, who says Lucifer couldn't restore it?[/QUOTE] Yeah but you don't go from being the main bad guy to being some minor pain in the ass who pops in once in awhile to make trouble. You don't go from hating all humans and wanting them all dead to just be content living on a planet full of them and just messing with one because he crossed you. When a bad guy goes from being a massive threat to minorirritationit's just sad andembarrassing. Better to just leave him as he is. It's better for the cool villains to just die (or in his case be locked up) rather than just fading away. It would be like Darkseid losingApocalypseand becoming a street bum on Earth. Better to just kill him or something and spare him thehumiliationof irrelevance.

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  • Avatar of WickedNix

    WickedNix

    [58]May 13, 2012
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    Perhaps my mind was elsewhere at the time, but Sam was having hallucinations (?) with Lucifer some episodes back.


    How come he isn't experiencing any more of them lately?

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    lachlan_j_g

    [59]May 13, 2012
    • member since: 03/24/05
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    WickedNix wrote:


    Perhaps my mind was elsewhere at the time, but Sam was having hallucinations (?) with Lucifer some episodes back.


    How come he isn't experiencing any more of them lately?



    Castiel absorbed his hallucinations, he saw Lucifer for a while but now he (Cas)is just a bit crazy

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    hamstrman

    [60]May 14, 2012
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    libra113 wrote:
    Yeah but you don't go from being the main bad guy to being some minor pain in the ass who pops in once in awhile to make trouble. You don't go from hating all humans and wanting them all dead to just be content living on a planet full of them and just messing with one because he crossed you. When a bad guy goes from being a massive threat to minorirritationit's just sad andembarrassing. Better to just leave him as he is. It's better for the cool villains to just die (or in his case be locked up) rather than just fading away. It would be like Darkseid losingApocalypseand becoming a street bum on Earth. Better to just kill him or something and spare him thehumiliationof irrelevance.



    Hey libra113,


    You're absolutely right with one - or so - exception. Don't know if you watched Angel ever or to its end, but all I'll say is 'Illyria'. Fantastic use of a character who would otherwise be insanely destructive and how to deal with the philosophical quandary of irrelevance. But that's Joss Whedon brilliance at work.


    It just immediately popped into my head, I had to bring it up. It would NOT work in what we're discussing here. I'm going to be so sad when everyone starts the whole "let's just forget this season ever happened and move on" pitch like with Season 6, which the more I contemplate, the more I loved it. Gah, Season 7 just started off so aggressive with a to-the-second premiere pick-up from the finale. It played like a three-part premiere. It shocked the crap out of us in the beginning, middle and end with some major characters whether you were thrilled or devastated. The stand-alones were amazing this season. They hinted at potential new recurring characters and teased us with others. They dealt with the "written-into-a-corner" plots better this season like Castiel absorbing Sam's affliction, but getting stuck with it. But dammit, I just cannot get on board with the Leviathan plot! And I hate that I am so underwhelmed! However they wrap it up or ramp it up, I know that how its progressed has actually disappointed me and, while the season overall has not, I can't wrap my head around what's going on in the writers' room! It's like it reads well on paper, but man... FIX IT! Like soul-less Sam took a half-season to reveal and it was worth the wait. The reveal about Dean killing Amy, Crowley working with Castiel, Bobby was a total shocker to me. But it all came through! This has been a whole season and I just don't know how long you can draw out a lackluster major plot point. Thoughts, libra113?

    Edited on 05/14/2012 12:48pm
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