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Official Episode Thread: The Girl Next Door (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [81]Oct 9, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    And what I forgot to mention is, why should the kid honour his mother's non-violent ways, if they weren't enough to save her from being killed. Quite the opposite, he has been thrown even more into the prejudice that humans are humans, and monsters are monsters.

    Nevermind that werewolf...
    Well, for lack of a better example Bruce Wayne saw both of his parents killed and he didn't become a stone cold killer, he had a choice and he choose to work for justice. I know it's apples and oranges but fiction and real life both have tons of examples of people who rise above adversity and make something good.

    This is a chance for him to decide that "hey killing people brings heat so I'm going to lay low and find alternative methods to feed myself" it's not really that much diffrent than someone choosing to make money to live honestly or becoming a criminal to feed themseleves. Yeah it's hard but it's still his choice to take the easy way out or not.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [82]Oct 9, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    And what I forgot to mention is, why should the kid honour his mother's non-violent ways, if they weren't enough to save her from being killed. Quite the opposite, he has been thrown even more into the prejudice that humans are humans, and monsters are monsters.

    Nevermind that werewolf...
    Well, for lack of a better example Bruce Wayne saw both of his parents killed and he didn't become a stone cold killer, he had a choice and he choose to work for justice. I know it's apples and oranges but fiction and real life both have tons of examples of people who rise above adversity and make something good.

    This is a chance for him to decide that "hey killing people brings heat so I'm going to lay low and find alternative methods to feed myself" it's not really that much diffrent than someone choosing to make money to live honestly or becoming a criminal to feed themseleves. Yeah it's hard but it's still his choice to take the easy way out or not.


    Bruce Wayne didn't belong to a race of monsters who are persecuted by hunters, and he didn't have to kill people so that he could eat their brains to survive
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [83]Oct 9, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    And what I forgot to mention is, why should the kid honour his mother's non-violent ways, if they weren't enough to save her from being killed. Quite the opposite, he has been thrown even more into the prejudice that humans are humans, and monsters are monsters.

    Nevermind that werewolf...
    Well, for lack of a better example Bruce Wayne saw both of his parents killed and he didn't become a stone cold killer, he had a choice and he choose to work for justice. I know it's apples and oranges but fiction and real life both have tons of examples of people who rise above adversity and make something good.

    This is a chance for him to decide that "hey killing people brings heat so I'm going to lay low and find alternative methods to feed myself" it's not really that much diffrent than someone choosing to make money to live honestly or becoming a criminal to feed themseleves. Yeah it's hard but it's still his choice to take the easy way out or not.


    Bruce Wayne didn't belong to a race of monsters who are persecuted by hunters, and he didn't have to kill people so that he could eat their brains to survive
    I so knew you were going to go there. Okay yeah he was human but I'm not really sure what people wanted Dean to do. It's not in his nature to let a human killing monster go with a promise that they won't do it again and he's certainly not one to kill a child (monster or no) that hasn't harmed anyone else. He's bound by his moral code no matter rigid or illologial others may think it is so he had no choice but to do what he did as he did it.

    I would have been more suprised if Dean has really let her go OR if he had killed the child too.
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  • Avatar of WickedNix

    WickedNix

    [84]Oct 9, 2011
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    Libra113 and dpebbleson...


    I just want to mention how much I enjoy your posts. Both of you have unique perspectives which makes this forum one of the more thought provoking sites I visit.

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  • Avatar of MarciusHess

    MarciusHess

    [85]Oct 9, 2011
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    Oh come on. Is this murder necessary? I think some was losen on the way. Just stupid and unecessary.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [86]Oct 9, 2011
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    WickedNix wrote:

    Libra113 and dpebbleson...


    I just want to mention how much I enjoy your posts. Both of you have unique perspectives which makes this forum one of the more thought provoking sites I visit.

    Well it's fun to debate this stuff (almost like the old days) and see what other people's perspectives are.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [87]Oct 10, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    And what I forgot to mention is, why should the kid honour his mother's non-violent ways, if they weren't enough to save her from being killed. Quite the opposite, he has been thrown even more into the prejudice that humans are humans, and monsters are monsters.

    Nevermind that werewolf...
    Well, for lack of a better example Bruce Wayne saw both of his parents killed and he didn't become a stone cold killer, he had a choice and he choose to work for justice. I know it's apples and oranges but fiction and real life both have tons of examples of people who rise above adversity and make something good.

    This is a chance for him to decide that "hey killing people brings heat so I'm going to lay low and find alternative methods to feed myself" it's not really that much diffrent than someone choosing to make money to live honestly or becoming a criminal to feed themseleves. Yeah it's hard but it's still his choice to take the easy way out or not.


    Bruce Wayne didn't belong to a race of monsters who are persecuted by hunters, and he didn't have to kill people so that he could eat their brains to survive
    I so knew you were going to go there. Okay yeah he was human but I'm not really sure what people wanted Dean to do. It's not in his nature to let a human killing monster go with a promise that they won't do it again and he's certainly not one to kill a child (monster or no) that hasn't harmed anyone else. He's bound by his moral code no matter rigid or illologial others may think it is so he had no choice but to do what he did as he did it.

    I would have been more suprised if Dean has really let her go OR if he had killed the child too.


    Yeah, I couldn't resist it

    I guess there isn't a way out of this. Dean obviously isn't perfect, he seems to have this thing with killing children, even if they were monsters. On the other hand, as you say, we'd be surprised if he let her go.

    In both ways, it's his nature. But I still can't bring myself to like what he did, regardless of it being his nature.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [88]Oct 10, 2011
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    WickedNix wrote:

    Libra113 and dpebbleson...


    I just want to mention how much I enjoy your posts. Both of you have unique perspectives which makes this forum one of the more thought provoking sites I visit.



    Thanks Hopefully more people will join us in the discussion so it becomes even more interesting and thought provoking!
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  • Avatar of chrolligal

    chrolligal

    [89]Oct 10, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    And what I forgot to mention is, why should the kid honour his mother's non-violent ways, if they weren't enough to save her from being killed. Quite the opposite, he has been thrown even more into the prejudice that humans are humans, and monsters are monsters. Nevermind that werewolf...
    Well, for lack of a better example Bruce Wayne saw both of his parents killed and he didn't become a stone cold killer, he had a choice and he choose to work for justice. I know it's apples and oranges but fiction and real life both have tons of examples of people who rise above adversity and make something good. This is a chance for him to decide that "hey killing people brings heat so I'm going to lay low and find alternative methods to feed myself" it's not really that much diffrent than someone choosing to make money to live honestly or becoming a criminal to feed themseleves. Yeah it's hard but it's still his choice to take the easy way out or not.
    Bruce Wayne didn't belong to a race of monsters who are persecuted by hunters, and he didn't have to kill people so that he could eat their brains to survive
    I so knew you were going to go there. Okay yeah he was human but I'm not really sure what people wanted Dean to do. It's not in his nature to let a human killing monster go with a promise that they won't do it again and he's certainly not one to kill a child (monster or no) that hasn't harmed anyone else. He's bound by his moral code no matter rigid or illologial others may think it is so he had no choice but to do what he did as he did it. I would have been more suprised if Dean has really let her go OR if he had killed the child too.
    Yeah, I couldn't resist it I guess there isn't a way out of this. Dean obviously isn't perfect, he seems to have this thing with killing children, even if they were monsters. On the other hand, as you say, we'd be surprised if he let her go. In both ways, it's his nature. But I still can't bring myself to like what he did, regardless of it being his nature.


    I think Dean would have killed the kid in the past but because of Sam and the goul, Rugeru(??) and cow sucking vampire episodes he now doesn't. He used to believe that all monsters deserved to die just because that's what John taught him but Sam showed him that not all monsters will murder people and it's occassionaly possible to fight their nature. The goul only killed Adam because John murdered his parents remember.


    I think it's Sam being kind of a monster at one time and was also Lucifer's vessel that he had to let the boy go. Dean giving those monsters who have not yet killed a chance is his way of believing in Sam and his ability to fight his nature. He believes very strongly that destiny can be fought against and changed and although he's not optimistic that the boy won't become a killer he won't take the chance and deny the boy his free will.



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    Ajclannachan

    [90]Oct 10, 2011
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    I hate to say it but Dean killing the mother and not the son. Not that he should have killed either for me is the fist sign of Supernatural "jumping the Shark"

    Its out of character. Made no sense to me at all and made out the supposed hero of the story to be a dick with double standards.

    Plus if you have Dean kill the mom he has to kill the kid to otherwise killing the mother is pointless. I mean shouldn't dean now follow the kid find out who is looking after him. I mean it could be another monster.


    You kill the mother you kill the kid simple after all in deans eyes they are just monsters. Even though in the past he has let go vampires, worked with a demon for 2 seasons. Im sure there are more examples but Im just so pissed off right now.



    It was just stupid and I just though wow whoever wrote this episode has never watched supernatural before or doesn't get it at all.

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  • Avatar of jpi1982

    jpi1982

    [91]Oct 10, 2011
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    Again: This is a special situation... I would not have a problem with Dean letting for example a vampire-kid or a werewolf-kid go. Yes they are dangerous for humans and often kill humans. But neither needs to kill humans to live. So letting them go because they have not killed is ok, because they have a choice and can choose newer to kill a human...

    This kid does not have this choice. He has to feed on human "brains" to survive. So in this instance Dean chose a monsters life over a human life. And Dean would never choose a monster over a human
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  • Avatar of kanniballl

    kanniballl

    [94]Oct 10, 2011
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    To those complaining about Deans' decision...



    It is a moral and ethical issue. Clearly a more ethical solution would be to reveal to the world that Monsters+Demons+etc exist and setup a justice system + jail + whatever to try them. But announcing that God+gods+demons+Satan+monsters+etc exist would quite literally rip humanity apart.


    Especially in the Supernatural universe, Christians would freak out if someone had proof that (A) God skipped town and (B) Angels are *ickwads that call humans monkeys and sheep.



    It's a tough call, we're not talking about people running around murdering other people.. It's not even like the X-Men comics problems... where they're hunted and such due to their differences and potential danger. In Supernatural, they deal with monsters that lurk in the shadows to kill, mame, and eat people.



    On one hand. they're already established they won't just kill any monster... they'll let some live if they haven't killed. A very early season had them let a father go because he hadn't killed yet... but I think the episode ended with him attacking the family and the brothers killing him.


    Similarly, we recently saw the after-effects of them letting a newly-turned Vampire go. She hadn't 100% turned at that point because she hadn't fed, but apparently Eve's influence recently made her do it and Cass dusted her.





    The kid hadn't killed anyone yet. The mother had, she'd done it a few times lately and there was no gaurantee she wouldn't again in the future.


    You can also argue that the kid will have to kill now anyway... but apparently the mother was able to survive for years / decades without killing. I doubt she became a mortician when she was a kid.


    Now, you can say "the boy would've killed if not for the mother" but you can similarly say "a son would've stolen the food because the family was hungry, but the father stole it first" The father would be to blame, not the child.


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  • Avatar of kanniballl

    kanniballl

    [95]Oct 10, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    WickedNix wrote:


    One thing that I found a bit much was when Dean sawed off his cast after just a few weeks.


    I don't think a leg could heal enough to bear weight and walk on after having suffered a compound fracture.


    Given Sam and Dean's superhuman recovery powers (just look back through the series at how quickly they seem to recover from any injury) I'm sure he's all healed up now.


    Well, in the show's defense... the doctors said the cast was scheduled to come off in 5 days or something. And I think about another day went by in-show after that. So taking off the cast 4 days early after its scheduled X weeks... he might be limping but I doubt anything major would happen unless he went full-on sprinting.



    Then again, we've seen them get wounded pretty badly and by next episode not even a scar. So I imagine they won't even bring up the cast thing again.



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  • Avatar of jpi1982

    jpi1982

    [96]Oct 10, 2011
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    kanniballl wrote:


    1:The kid hadn't killed anyone yet. The mother had, she'd done it a few times lately and there was no guarantee she wouldn't again in the future.


    2:You can also argue that the kid will have to kill now anyway... but apparently the mother was able to survive for years / decades without killing. I doubt she became a mortician when she was a kid.



    3:Now, you can say "the boy would've killed if not for the mother" but you can similarly say "a son would've stolen the food because the family was hungry, but the father stole it first" The father would be to blame, not the child.


    1: Amy had to kill humans because the kid got sick from eating the only alternative to living humans "brains". She did not do it for herself. So let's say that the kid finds a way to get petuetary glands from dead people, the risk of him getting sick is still the same even though the mother is dead. Now he has to get petuetary glands from living people. Hmmm wasn't that the reason why Dean killed the mother?...


    2:Amy had to kill humans before she became a mortician. Why do you think she started working as a mortician? They do not eat petuetary glands just because it tastes like chocolate. Without it they die. So saying that he can just choose to not eat them is plain wrong.


    3:To use you example... Yes it was the father that was stealing(killing), but now the father has been killed and the child is all alone so now the child is forced to steal(kill). Eating is not voluntary, you can not live without food...

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    Mickis

    [97]Oct 10, 2011
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    I have to say, what bothered me about the ending os this episode wasn't Dean killing Amy. It was Dean flat out telling he TRUSTED Sam, only to go behind his back and kill the monster himself. This should be the big debate.


    Dean probably felt he was doing something bad, or else he wouldn't have done it in secret. I mean, I can understand that he didn't trust Sam's judgement, or that he somehow wanted so spare him the job of having to do it, but then he could have offered to be the one to do it (like when they had to kill Madison, Dean offered to be the one to pull the trigger, but Sam told him that he had to because she'd asked him to). Anyway, him going behind his brother's back like that is like asking for trouble, and I'm kinda sick of the writers using the "let's have Sam and Dean keeping secrets from each other" as a desperate plot device.


    Whenever my friend and I watch this show together (we sometimes have DVD marathons) we always complain about them keeping things to themselves and going behind each others backs, for whatever reason, because it always - and I repeat - ALWAYS turns out bad. Not once has keeping secrets been a good idea, and after this many times of repeatedly doing it, surely they would have learned form their mistakes. But this season has only started and the secrets are already piling up. I know they're fictional characters, but this continued, clearly flawed behaviour is getting ridiculous at this point.



    Just be honest with each other goddammit! I guess it's all done in the name of family drama, but man, enough already.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [98]Oct 10, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    And what I forgot to mention is, why should the kid honour his mother's non-violent ways, if they weren't enough to save her from being killed. Quite the opposite, he has been thrown even more into the prejudice that humans are humans, and monsters are monsters.

    Nevermind that werewolf...
    Well, for lack of a better example Bruce Wayne saw both of his parents killed and he didn't become a stone cold killer, he had a choice and he choose to work for justice. I know it's apples and oranges but fiction and real life both have tons of examples of people who rise above adversity and make something good.

    This is a chance for him to decide that "hey killing people brings heat so I'm going to lay low and find alternative methods to feed myself" it's not really that much diffrent than someone choosing to make money to live honestly or becoming a criminal to feed themseleves. Yeah it's hard but it's still his choice to take the easy way out or not.


    Bruce Wayne didn't belong to a race of monsters who are persecuted by hunters, and he didn't have to kill people so that he could eat their brains to survive
    I so knew you were going to go there. Okay yeah he was human but I'm not really sure what people wanted Dean to do. It's not in his nature to let a human killing monster go with a promise that they won't do it again and he's certainly not one to kill a child (monster or no) that hasn't harmed anyone else. He's bound by his moral code no matter rigid or illologial others may think it is so he had no choice but to do what he did as he did it.

    I would have been more suprised if Dean has really let her go OR if he had killed the child too.


    Yeah, I couldn't resist it

    I guess there isn't a way out of this. Dean obviously isn't perfect, he seems to have this thing with killing children, even if they were monsters. On the other hand, as you say, we'd be surprised if he let her go.

    In both ways, it's his nature. But I still can't bring myself to like what he did, regardless of it being his nature.
    Well, I don't know if I like it either I just understand it and know where he's coming from. If you look back through the seasons it's pretty clear he would do that just kind of suprising to actually see it happen and it's too bad it went down the way it did.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [99]Oct 10, 2011
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    chrolligal wrote:

    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    And what I forgot to mention is, why should the kid honour his mother's non-violent ways, if they weren't enough to save her from being killed. Quite the opposite, he has been thrown even more into the prejudice that humans are humans, and monsters are monsters. Nevermind that werewolf...
    Well, for lack of a better example Bruce Wayne saw both of his parents killed and he didn't become a stone cold killer, he had a choice and he choose to work for justice. I know it's apples and oranges but fiction and real life both have tons of examples of people who rise above adversity and make something good. This is a chance for him to decide that "hey killing people brings heat so I'm going to lay low and find alternative methods to feed myself" it's not really that much diffrent than someone choosing to make money to live honestly or becoming a criminal to feed themseleves. Yeah it's hard but it's still his choice to take the easy way out or not.
    Bruce Wayne didn't belong to a race of monsters who are persecuted by hunters, and he didn't have to kill people so that he could eat their brains to survive
    I so knew you were going to go there. Okay yeah he was human but I'm not really sure what people wanted Dean to do. It's not in his nature to let a human killing monster go with a promise that they won't do it again and he's certainly not one to kill a child (monster or no) that hasn't harmed anyone else. He's bound by his moral code no matter rigid or illologial others may think it is so he had no choice but to do what he did as he did it. I would have been more suprised if Dean has really let her go OR if he had killed the child too.
    Yeah, I couldn't resist it I guess there isn't a way out of this. Dean obviously isn't perfect, he seems to have this thing with killing children, even if they were monsters. On the other hand, as you say, we'd be surprised if he let her go. In both ways, it's his nature. But I still can't bring myself to like what he did, regardless of it being his nature.


    I think Dean would have killed the kid in the past but because of Sam and the goul, Rugeru(??) and cow sucking vampire episodes he now doesn't. He used to believe that all monsters deserved to die just because that's what John taught him but Sam showed him that not all monsters will murder people and it's occassionaly possible to fight their nature. The goul only killed Adam because John murdered his parents remember.


    I think it's Sam being kind of a monster at one time and was also Lucifer's vessel that he had to let the boy go. Dean giving those monsters who have not yet killed a chance is his way of believing in Sam and his ability to fight his nature. He believes very strongly that destiny can be fought against and changed and although he's not optimistic that the boy won't become a killer he won't take the chance and deny the boy his free will.



    I don't know he's been presented with monster children before and he's never been for killing them. He was opposed to killing Jessie and he was pretty much all powerful and had (albeit accidently) caused people to die. He certainly wasn't gung ho for killing the shape shifter baby and I don't recall him being for killing any children who were monsters (ghosts don't count as they're already dead). He even exspressed distaste at the child bones in the teacher's desk in the Halloween episode and those where over a hundred years old. He clearly has a soft spot in his heart for kids no matter what and would be hard pressed to kill them even without other choices.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [100]Oct 10, 2011
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    Ajclannachan wrote:

    I hate to say it but Dean killing the mother and not the son. Not that he should have killed either for me is the fist sign of Supernatural "jumping the Shark"

    Its out of character. Made no sense to me at all and made out the supposed hero of the story to be a dick with double standards.

    Plus if you have Dean kill the mom he has to kill the kid to otherwise killing the mother is pointless. I mean shouldn't dean now follow the kid find out who is looking after him. I mean it could be another monster.


    You kill the mother you kill the kid simple after all in deans eyes they are just monsters. Even though in the past he has let go vampires, worked with a demon for 2 seasons. Im sure there are more examples but Im just so pissed off right now.



    It was just stupid and I just though wow whoever wrote this episode has never watched supernatural before or doesn't get it at all.

    Well, if you have been watching the show from the start and have been aware of Dean's tendencies it really isn't out of character at all.

    He's always choosen humans over monsters (espcially monsters who are actively killing) so his killing the mother was a no brainer and I knew he would do it (one way or another) all along.

    As for the child, if you look at his history you will see he has always had issues with killing children regardless of the situation so that wasn't a suprise either.

    It's not about logical or facts or any of that, Dean reacts from a place of emotion and his emotion and his own set of morals make any other action impossilbe to him.

    Again, it may not make senes and it may be a double standrad but that's the code he lives by and he can't do anything else.
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