Supernatural Forums

Tuesday 9:00 PM on The CWIn Season

Question about souls and Castiel becoming God

  • Avatar of pinkclij_hardy

    pinkclij_hardy

    [1]Sep 7, 2011
    • member since: 11/22/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 69

    Hello I've been following the show since from the start, and something has been gnawing at me for a while about the plot at the end of the last season, when Castiel became God by absorbing the souls from Purgatory.


    My question is why haven't anyone else done it? It seems such a straightforward way to becoming powerful, that I find it hard to believe that no one else has attempted it.


    Crowley estimated there are 30-40 million souls in Purgatory. That number seems like a minuscule amount when you consider that there are 5-6 billion souls on Earth alone and souls have been going to heaven and hell since forever.


    So why haven't someone just taken Heaven or Hell's soul and be "God" too? I'm just wondering if anyone have had similar thoughts about this.

    Edited on 09/07/2011 10:58pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [2]Sep 8, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385
    I'm sure anything powerful enough to take BOTH Heaven and Hell would already be nearly god-like anyway. It's one thing for a demon (like Crowley) to work his way up the infernal ladder and become King of Hell and use those souls to become more powerful. It's another to then, as a demon, take over Heaven and tap into thoes souls as well. Also, given how the Purgatory souls corrupted Cas I would think a demon taking on Heaven souls would run the risk of being 'tainted' by goodness and an angel taking on Hell souls would run the risk of being tainted by evil.

    As for Purgatory. It was lost for a long time and VERY hard to find (it took an angel and a demon working together to get there and when was the last time a demon and angel were able to work together on anything) and there's the whole corruption thing again.

    In short the difficulty and the risks are just too high for anyone who wasn't as desperate as Cas to even try.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of saicr

    saicr

    [3]Sep 8, 2011
    • member since: 01/24/06
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 97
    I agree with Libra113 that finding purgatory and tapping into the souls it contains would be a very difficult thing todo. The one thing that I don't agree with is the notion that Cas was tainted with evil. Cas was tainted with power in it's purest form, neither good nor evil. By taking in so much power, he was left forever craving more, and the feeling that he had transcended any other being in existence.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [4]Sep 8, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385
    saicr wrote:
    I agree with Libra113 that finding purgatory and tapping into the souls it contains would be a very difficult thing todo. The one thing that I don't agree with is the notion that Cas was tainted with evil. Cas was tainted with power in it's purest form, neither good nor evil. By taking in so much power, he was left forever craving more, and the feeling that he had transcended any other being in existence.
    Well, either way he was changed and if someone desires to become the new God but in control of themselves and not go power nuts then they're not going to want to go that way. Also, there is also hinted the possiblity that Cas can't contain that power for too long and could end up exploding (so far it hasn't happened) so there's also a risk of that.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of pinkclij_hardy

    pinkclij_hardy

    [5]Sep 8, 2011
    • member since: 11/22/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 69

    I guess I didn't articulate my confusion correctly. Purgatory is hard to find, and that's kind of my point. Why go through all that trouble for a measly 30-40 million souls when Heaven and Hell's own cache of souls are readily accessible? Surely Heaven or Hell must have multitudes more than that. So why haven't anyone else just grabbed Heaven or Hell's souls? Why haven't Raphael? There's no indication that you can't tap those souls in Heaven (or else unsinking the Titanic makes little sense). Or maybe the idea of taking in so many souls is dangerous and only a desperate fool would try it? But then again Raphael wasn't perturbed at all when he was about to take in Purgatory's souls himself.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [6]Sep 8, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385
    Well, I would guess in order to fully tap into Heaven's souls you would have to have control of Heaven and that's what Raph and Cas were fighting about. As for Hell's souls Crowley had thoes as King of Hell and it's doubtful he was going to get directly invovled in Heaven's power struggle, just use it to try and get into Cas' head and use him to help find the Purgatory souls to add to his own power (good thing Cas double crossed him first).
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of pinkclij_hardy

    pinkclij_hardy

    [7]Sep 8, 2011
    • member since: 11/22/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 69

    Could be an explanation although an all or nothing scenario seems kind of weak. What's the point of creating 25k more souls by unsinking the Titanic if it's all going to Heaven's bank and you're just going to be able to use it till you won the war?

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [8]Sep 9, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385
    Thoes souls weren't supposed to exsist so there's no assuring where they would go. I would think if they went to all that trouble that there was also a way to intercept thoes souls (so to speak) so Cas could use them. Either that or since Heaven had no real, defined leader (some were following Cas some were following Raph) that he COULD get them if he got to them first but then so could Raph so it was a calculated risk.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of pinkclij_hardy

    pinkclij_hardy

    [9]Sep 9, 2011
    • member since: 11/22/06
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 69

    Well I won't beat on a dead horse, I was hoping that perhaps there was something I missed or someone have some insight that make this plot twist seem less weak to me.


    I had just assumed it was straightforward: you're able to tap the souls you control. So Raphael would have his souls from the portion of heaven he control and Castiel his portion. I mean Crowley just lent Castiel 50k souls like it was nothing, and Castiel absorbed all the souls just by going to Purgatory, so why wouldn't Heaven's souls be just free game to whoever can grab the most. I just find it hard to believe that 30-40 million souls was all it took for Castiel to be God (or powerful enough to proclaim himself to be). Someone must have had more souls than that on their side in Heaven or Hell at one point right?

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [10]Sep 9, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385
    Well, the Heaven souls WOULD be split between Raph and Cas depending on what they're holdings in Heaven were, but remember that Cas was losing the war and thus losing his control and that Raph was more powerful to start with so Cas would need WAY more souls just to keep even with Raph and it's likely Raph controlled more of Heaven and more souls than Cas could ever get alone.

    He took the souls that Crowley lent him and used thoes to put Raph off his ass for awhile but I'm betting the power that souls give passess as it's used (like a battery). The Titanic thing was likely Cas' attempt to get enough souls to keep up his levels until they could reach Purgatory.

    As for the Hell souls, again, Raph has a head start so even assuming that Hell and Heaven had the exact same number of souls and assuming Cas could take them all (without harming himself becasue the souls are evil) he would still be less powerful that Raph.

    As for Purgatory souls, you have to remember they're not human and since they're monsters and have power of their own their souls may be more powerful that human souls and in any case Purgatory has been lost for ages so there's a huge untapped well right there.

    In any case it all makes perfect sense I guess we're just not seeing it from the same point of view or are not explaining our views to each other properly.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of yutg25

    yutg25

    [11]Sep 13, 2011
    • member since: 01/18/11
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 205

    Well, do you thing any other angel or demon is gonna be able get through the vaults and its guards? Until recentlyall the repositories were guarded by some very leathal forces


    Heaven/Michael


    Hell/Lucifer


    Purgatory/Eve


    After M/L got taken out the vault was emptied by the factions and probably got a little used up.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [12]Sep 13, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385
    Well, assuming by vaults you mean where the souls are kept I would guess (as I said before) that it's more a matter of whoever rules Heaven gets the power of all the souls in Heaven (and likewise with Hell). With Heaven divided between Raph and Cas then the power would also be divided (with Raph having a major edge as an arcangle AND being in ever greater control of Heaven).

    Once Crowley took over Hell his power grew greatly (for the same reason) and that kinda left Cas out in the cold. He had only a limited number of Heaven souls (and was likely losing thoes every day), Crowley had the Hell souls and wasn't going to just hand all that power over so all he could do was something reckless and insaine like changing history and finding Purgatory.

    Cas' actions where the last desperate actions of someone who was watching everything fall apart and had no other way out and now he's paying the price. I just hope he makes it through alive and can learn and grow and move forward.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of gatoraderising

    gatoraderising

    [13]Sep 14, 2011
    • member since: 02/23/11
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 431
    pinkclij_hardy wrote:

    Hello I've been following the show since from the start, and something has been gnawing at me for a while about the plot at the end of the last season, when Castiel became God by absorbing the souls from Purgatory.


    My question is why haven't anyone else done it? It seems such a straightforward way to becoming powerful, that I find it hard to believe that no one else has attempted it.


    Crowley estimated there are 30-40 million souls in Purgatory. That number seems like a minuscule amount when you consider that there are 5-6 billion souls on Earth alone and souls have been going to heaven and hell since forever.


    So why haven't someone just taken Heaven or Hell's soul and be "God" too? I'm just wondering if anyone have had similar thoughts about this.



    Like who? Taking on Hell for its souls is one thing but taking on Heaven before the end of season 5 would have been a whole other story. If something could have beaten two Archangel's and all of the angel's behind them, it would already have God like power's and wouldn't need the extra souls.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [14]Sep 14, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385
    Good point as well. Anyway, Purgatory was hidden and the only creatures with the power to find it and make use of it wouldn't need it.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of gatoraderising

    gatoraderising

    [15]Sep 15, 2011
    • member since: 02/23/11
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 431
    Another reason why someone hasn't tried to find Purgatory or try to take Heaven or Hell's souls could be because like we've heard a number of times in season 6, taking in that many soul's is most likly going to end with you blowing up and taking half the earht with you.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [16]Sep 15, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Another reason why someone hasn't tried to find Purgatory or try to take Heaven or Hell's souls could be because like we've heard a number of times in season 6, taking in that many soul's is most likly going to end with you blowing up and taking half the earht with you.
    Yeah, there is that too. It's a very risky move that only someone who is very desperate would even attempt. Further more one of the recurring themes last season was that the old rules no longer applied so there may have been rules (or checks) in place that prevented such a bold and risky move until now.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of gatoraderising

    gatoraderising

    [17]Sep 15, 2011
    • member since: 02/23/11
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 431
    Well wasnt mostly the angel's or things that worked for God like Fate and her sister's the one's talking about the old rules not meaning anything anymore.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [18]Sep 15, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Well wasnt mostly the angel's or things that worked for God like Fate and her sister's the one's talking about the old rules not meaning anything anymore.
    Yeah, but it goes deeper than that. Djinn were no longer solitary and living in ruins. Werewolves no longer needed a full moon to change. The whole world order is destroyed and all bets are off.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of gatoraderising

    gatoraderising

    [19]Sep 15, 2011
    • member since: 02/23/11
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 431
    True. I wonder if the old rules could ever come back into play.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [20]Sep 15, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,385
    gatoraderising wrote:
    True. I wonder if the old rules could ever come back into play.
    I guess that depends on why they're out in the first place. Is whoever (or whatever) enforced them just gone or are they more like forces of nature and there's something wrong with the very universe itself to make that so. What suddenly makes a monster change it's very nature or makes another able to overcome it's natural limitations and do things they normally couldn't?
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.