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Replacement for Loki

  • Avatar of taxcat11

    taxcat11

    [1]Feb 13, 2011
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    I think it is safe to say that Gabriel is not coming back the way Castiel did. Fair enough, running out on his family then trying to solve the problem of Lucifer by killing him didn't win him any points. Daddy still loves Lucifer I guess and trying to kill him isn't going to get you any favours. But with Gabriel gone that leaves the position of trickster god Loki open to be filled. What about Jesse? Wouldn't that be a productive use for the talents of an antichrist? Kid's got the power. Lots of dicks really need putting in their place. It gives Jesse an outlet for his powers which could be socially redeeming. I can't think that Jesse with nothing to do with his abilities is a good thing. What do you think?

    Edited on 02/16/2011 11:32am
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [2]Feb 13, 2011
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    Maybe if another trickster showed up and guided him in that path but I can't see him doing it on his own.

    Now maybe he COULD start with something personal (someone who ticks him off)then start to get drunk with power and start carrying it too far.
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    yutg25

    [3]Feb 13, 2011
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    Well for me there is a chance Gabriel can come back the way Cas did. Cuz to me Gabriel is like the prodigal son. Actually it would appear that all God's kids went prodigal. Lucifer disobeyed, Michael disobeyed, heck it would appear that all angels disobeyed except for Cas who joined in with the Winchesters to stop the unauthorized Apocalypse. Gab came back and tried to kill Lucy to stop it even though I think he didn't want to and the fact is he knew he couldn't get one up on his little brother.


    I wouldn't be surprise if the Winchesters suddenly find themselves in Burn notice.

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    basenji529

    [4]Feb 14, 2011
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    I was pretty sure God could do anything. But then again, if he's not willing to protect the universe...

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    libra113

    [5]Feb 14, 2011
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    I'd like to see the Trickster come back and not the angel. By that I mean there's still time and room to state that they were NEVER really one in the same but that the angel took his name and form to approch Sam and Dean.

    I mean if he had come to them as just another angel with this 'accept your roles' bit it would have compleatly fallen of death ears (well it did anyway but it would have been worse if he was out in the open about his angelic nature).

    What better way to approch them then to assume a form they knew and use it to try and sway them more directly.

    Now the REAL Trickster could show up to make it clear.
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  • Avatar of taxcat11

    taxcat11

    [6]Feb 16, 2011
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    I have to admit I didn't care for the Trickster is the archangel Gabriel but I can't see going back on that now. As to the return of Gabriel, it would not make sense from a moral perspective. Remember that if God desired He could have destroyed Lucifer. Although Lucifer considers it excessive to be imprisoned, he really only has himself to blame. Lucifer is unrepentant and still seeks to destroy mankind. I don't think it was an accident that Michael ended up imprisoned with Lucifer. Michael is being punished for his role in letting Lucifer escape, and trying to force the apocalypse without permission. Whether Michael makes it out, is yet to be seen but will not doubt depend on some major repentance on Michael's part. As for poor Adam, I am not sure that he has it that rough. I mean Michael owes it to Adam to protect him from Lucifer & Hell. It is not Adam's fault Michael wound up in Hell. Adam certainly does not deserved to share Michael's imprisonment simply because Michael must have used some major & unfair pressure to get Adam's agreement.

    Edited on 02/16/2011 11:34am
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [7]Feb 16, 2011
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    Well yeah he won't have Lucifer and Micheal ganging up on him like Sam did (unless they do it just for kicks), but just being in the cage must be some form of punishment other than just being trapped and it can't be a very plesent place to spend time.

    As for the Gaberial/Loki thing look at it this way: Loki exsisted in mythology before Christianity and the concept of angels so surely there WAS a Loki before there was a Gaberial and there's nothing to say that Loki wasn't real in his first appearance, even if he wasn't later (when he took a personal intrest in Sam and Dean and the whole Heaven/Hell thing)so there's certainly room to have him comeback as the REAL Loki.

    I always felt that "Changing Channels" SHOULD have ended that way becasue it kind of wasted a really good recurring baddie who a lot of fun and it wouldn't have hurt the main story in any way to have it end that way.
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  • Avatar of taxcat11

    taxcat11

    [8]Feb 17, 2011
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    I am not sure if Loki actually pre dates angels as angels are old testiment and do in fact pre date Christianity. It is odd that the other gods, particularly Odin & Baldur (same mythology) did not realise that Loki wasn't Loki but an archangel posing as him. Angels require vessels but nobody said that these gods had the same requirement. But perhaps Loki was Gabriel's vessel, agreeing to allow the archangel to do the steering because of Gabriel being able to provide more power for Loki's mandate of ironical punishments. That would mean that Loki was destroyed along with Gabriel the same way that Jimmy was destroyed with Castiel. BTW did we ever discover if Jimmy is still along for the ride with Castiel?
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    Beecharm3r2

    [9]Feb 27, 2011
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    I think Gabriel can come back and I'm really hoping he will. I still am not convinced he's dead. He's tricked people before, faking his own death. Just because Lucifer THOUGHT he was stabbing the right Gabriel, doesn't mean its so. Just watching Hammer of the Gods again, it seems like the real Gabriel is in the room rescuing Kali, Dean, and Sam, speaking to Lucifer and a fake one appeared behind Lucifer. At least, watching the episode a couple times, It still looks to me like the Gabriel that got stabbed was the fake one.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [10]Feb 27, 2011
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    taxcat11 wrote:
    I am not sure if Loki actually pre dates angels as angels are old testiment and do in fact pre date Christianity. It is odd that the other gods, particularly Odin & Baldur (same mythology) did not realise that Loki wasn't Loki but an archangel posing as him. Angels require vessels but nobody said that these gods had the same requirement. But perhaps Loki was Gabriel's vessel, agreeing to allow the archangel to do the steering because of Gabriel being able to provide more power for Loki's mandate of ironical punishments. That would mean that Loki was destroyed along with Gabriel the same way that Jimmy was destroyed with Castiel. BTW did we ever discover if Jimmy is still along for the ride with Castiel?
    Well Christian angles (which is what we're talking about) are predated by the polythetic gods of the older times (Greek, Roman, Norse, etc...).

    In fact the Christians fought hard to discredit the old religions or absorb the rituals to smooth the transition from pagon worship to Christianity.

    It's possible that Gab used Loki as a vessel but I THOUGHT being a vessel required certain conditions which are sometimes hinted as being faith and pure soul and I can't see Loki qualifying being a god of another religion in his own right.

    As for his power level I still have to quibble with that point. Trickster gods are all powerful and nothing he did from start to finish was outside his power REALLY don't really know why they said otherwise (except to justify the whole angel thing and get themselves out of a stick situation given their track record with all powerful beings).
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [11]Feb 27, 2011
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    Beecharm3r2 wrote:
    I think Gabriel can come back and I'm really hoping he will. I still am not convinced he's dead. He's tricked people before, faking his own death. Just because Lucifer THOUGHT he was stabbing the right Gabriel, doesn't mean its so. Just watching Hammer of the Gods again, it seems like the real Gabriel is in the room rescuing Kali, Dean, and Sam, speaking to Lucifer and a fake one appeared behind Lucifer. At least, watching the episode a couple times, It still looks to me like the Gabriel that got stabbed was the fake one.
    Great thing about a characater like this is that anything is possible. Still IF he came back I WISH they would clearly state that Gab and Loki are two DIFFRENT entities and that Gab only stole his form for the last couple of appearances and thus the real Loki was never there.
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  • Avatar of taxcat11

    taxcat11

    [12]Feb 28, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    taxcat11 wrote:
    I am not sure if Loki actually pre dates angels as angels are old testament and do in fact pre date Christianity. It is odd that the other gods, particularly Odin & Baldur (same mythology) did not realise that Loki wasn't Loki but an archangel posing as him. Angels require vessels but nobody said that these gods had the same requirement. But perhaps Loki was Gabriel's vessel, agreeing to allow the archangel to do the steering because of Gabriel being able to provide more power for Loki's mandate of ironical punishments. That would mean that Loki was destroyed along with Gabriel the same way that Jimmy was destroyed with Castiel. BTW did we ever discover if Jimmy is still along for the ride with Castiel?
    Well Christian angles (which is what we're talking about) are predated by the polythetic gods of the older times (Greek, Roman, Norse, etc...). In fact the Christians fought hard to discredit the old religions or absorb the rituals to smooth the transition from pagon worship to Christianity. It's possible that Gab used Loki as a vessel but I THOUGHT being a vessel required certain conditions which are sometimes hinted as being faith and pure soul and I can't see Loki qualifying being a god of another religion in his own right. As for his power level I still have to quibble with that point. Trickster gods are all powerful and nothing he did from start to finish was outside his power REALLY don't really know why they said otherwise (except to justify the whole angel thing and get themselves out of a stick situation given their track record with all powerful beings).
    Gabriel & Michael are mentioned in the book of Daniel, while Raphael is mentioned in the book of Enoch (not officially old testament but not a Christian work). Interestly mostly angels were referred to an Angel of the Lord rather than by name in the old testament but it is safe to say we are talking about the same crew. If you remember Castiel made a point of identifying himself as an Angel of the Lord. Lucifer & Satan are also found in the old testament but Lucifer was not an angel & Satan was not cast out but was the angel assigned the role of testing mankind's faith. Gabriel position was unique, as he claimed to be in "witness protection" i.e. not on official Heavenly business therefore the rules about faith & purity may not apply. Also I thought all the pagan gods lost a great deal of their power with the lost of their followers (i.e. A Supernatural Christmas & Fallen Idols) Loki would have been a powerful god but as he is no longer worshiped or even believed in, it is quite possible that he is now greatly limited in what he can do. Unlike Kali who is still worshiped & believed in.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [13]Feb 28, 2011
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    Well, that's a bit of an issue but I'm not sure Trickster gods were really so much worshipped in their day as feared (or as morality lessons).

    In either case an aurgment could be made one way or the other and we're not likely to find out so I guss that one is a push.

    As for Kali I wonder if, in her case, it was a matter of home feild advantage. Maybe if the fight took place in her homeland then things would have been a bit diffrent.

    As a footnote I should mention that I read in one of the books (don't know if this applies or not since it's the RPG Core Rule Book and not the show itself) that a god's power doesn't have anything to do with worshippers or lack thereof. Don't recall where they said it came from but if true it would explain both Kali and Loki.
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    gatoraderising

    [14]Mar 1, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, that's a bit of an issue but I'm not sure Trickster gods were really so much worshipped in their day as feared (or as morality lessons).

    In either case an aurgment could be made one way or the other and we're not likely to find out so I guss that one is a push.

    As for Kali I wonder if, in her case, it was a matter of home feild advantage. Maybe if the fight took place in her homeland then things would have been a bit diffrent.

    As a footnote I should mention that I read in one of the books (don't know if this applies or not since it's the RPG Core Rule Book and not the show itself) that a god's power doesn't have anything to do with worshippers or lack thereof. Don't recall where they said it came from but if true it would explain both Kali and Loki.


    I dont remember them ever saying in the SHOW that any of the Gods power are from how many people worship them. I dont think it has anything to do with how powerful they are. The only time i saw something like that was in the movie Clash of Titans. Who knows maybe Gab killed the real Tricker and stole his place. I dont see how the other pagen gods wouldnt have notice that there was two Trickers running around out there. If you see what i mean it kinda make sense.
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    libra113

    [15]Mar 1, 2011
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    Well, it's kinda implied in that all the pagan gods we've seen have been pretty weak for gods and not only that have been able to die which, tradionally, gods cannot.

    It was also used in "Merlin" when they defeated Queen Mab by turning their backs on her and not beleaving in her anymore, thus forcing her out of exsistance (a metaphor for Christianity eliminating the pagan religions of old).

    It's also kinda hinted a bit in that the gods we've seen on the show gathering sacrfices it was kind of a way to hold on to what power the had left by going through the motions.

    Still, given that no one (at least no one I've heard of) still worships the Norse Gods and they're apprently still around, in some form, that either the number of worshippers doesn't matter or isn't the only thing that matters. It's a bit unclear.

    As for killing the original Trickster and taking his place I like to think, if they insist on doing this whole Tricker is Gab thing (which I hate and wish they would undo) I SUPPOSE you could say that's what happened at the end of "Tall Tales".

    Sam and Dean appear to kill the Trickster then he appears and the dead one dissppears.

    At the time it looked like the dead on was a decoy but what if it was the REAL Trickster and the other one was Gab taking his place.

    As I recall there's nothing to say that Gab had been playing the Trickster any longer than that.
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    basenji529

    [16]Mar 1, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    taxcat11 wrote:
    I am not sure if Loki actually pre dates angels as angels are old testiment and do in fact pre date Christianity. It is odd that the other gods, particularly Odin & Baldur (same mythology) did not realise that Loki wasn't Loki but an archangel posing as him. Angels require vessels but nobody said that these gods had the same requirement. But perhaps Loki was Gabriel's vessel, agreeing to allow the archangel to do the steering because of Gabriel being able to provide more power for Loki's mandate of ironical punishments. That would mean that Loki was destroyed along with Gabriel the same way that Jimmy was destroyed with Castiel. BTW did we ever discover if Jimmy is still along for the ride with Castiel?
    Well Christian angles (which is what we're talking about) are predated by the polythetic gods of the older times (Greek, Roman, Norse, etc...). In fact the Christians fought hard to discredit the old religions or absorb the rituals to smooth the transition from pagon worship to Christianity. It's possible that Gab used Loki as a vessel but I THOUGHT being a vessel required certain conditions which are sometimes hinted as being faith and pure soul and I can't see Loki qualifying being a god of another religion in his own right. As for his power level I still have to quibble with that point. Trickster gods are all powerful and nothing he did from start to finish was outside his power REALLY don't really know why they said otherwise (except to justify the whole angel thing and get themselves out of a stick situation given their track record with all powerful beings).


    Perhaps the Loki guise was another trick. Just a possibility.

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    libra113

    [17]Mar 1, 2011
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    In what way do you mean that exactly?
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    Beecharm3r2

    [18]Mar 2, 2011
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    At first I was thrown by the Gab being Loki thing but now I kind of like the idea of it. Angels carry out God's will, supposedly carrying out 'justice' in some cases. Trickster was saying from Tall Tales that the people 'deserved it' and did so again in Changing Channels... so if the writers use that to expand on this explanation as to who Gabriel/Loki really is then it could work better. Like, in Gabriel's mind he's protecting the 'good' people by casting out the bad? They could easily just explain away some of the victims he killed in Mystery Spot or in Changing Channels by explaining what was so horrible that they did that deserved to have them murdered. (Someone molesting a kid or something and therefore Gab tossed him into the blackhole...) Yeah it would still be a little confusing but it would fit better with the Gabriel character. Random observation - Gabriel/Loki never hurt or killed women or children, just 'dicks'. So there is some sort of value system there even if its twisted.

    As far as saying that Gabriel took over from being Loki after Tall Tales, I don't see it. Only because of some of the things he said in later episodes are similar to what was said in his first episode. Plus, the personality is identical so that would just seem...off.

    Yeah, I think however the writers address this it needs to be done carefully so it doesn't sound awkward or strange. But I do think they need to address it in some way.
    Edited on 03/02/2011 11:54pm
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    gatoraderising

    [19]Mar 3, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, it's kinda implied in that all the pagan gods we've seen have been pretty weak for gods and not only that have been able to die which, tradionally, gods cannot.

    It was also used in "Merlin" when they defeated Queen Mab by turning their backs on her and not beleaving in her anymore, thus forcing her out of exsistance (a metaphor for Christianity eliminating the pagan religions of old).

    It's also kinda hinted a bit in that the gods we've seen on the show gathering sacrfices it was kind of a way to hold on to what power the had left by going through the motions.

    Still, given that no one (at least no one I've heard of) still worships the Norse Gods and they're apprently still around, in some form, that either the number of worshippers doesn't matter or isn't the only thing that matters. It's a bit unclear.

    As for killing the original Trickster and taking his place I like to think, if they insist on doing this whole Tricker is Gab thing (which I hate and wish they would undo) I SUPPOSE you could say that's what happened at the end of "Tall Tales".

    Sam and Dean appear to kill the Trickster then he appears and the dead one dissppears.

    At the time it looked like the dead on was a decoy but what if it was the REAL Trickster and the other one was Gab taking his place.

    As I recall there's nothing to say that Gab had been playing the Trickster any longer than that.


    It could work that way. I like to think Gab would have killed the real trickser a long time ago like when he left heaven and went into witness protection as he called it. I say this because in the ep Hammer of gods it seems like he was acting like Loki for along time. Longer then a couple years.
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    basenji529

    [20]Mar 3, 2011
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    Iktomi (Lakota trickster spider) could play the role. So could a bunch of other trickster animals. With human form, of course.

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