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Seriously now, what happened to the Anti-christ?

  • Avatar of Xivile

    Xivile

    [1]Oct 22, 2010
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    We've seen the episode where Sam and Dean met a little kid with powers, what ever he believes comes true, and at the end we've seen he's a hubrid Human/demon and was declared as the most powerful weapon Lucifer will own, then the boy teleported himself away from everyone.


    Now the Question: i don't really think i missed something about him cause i waited for him to re-appear at some point during season 5 yet not even a thread about him as if the episode about him is useless, am really confused, was there any discussion about him at any episode from season 5 or not?



    Cheers For your replies in advance


    Have a good Day.

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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [2]Oct 22, 2010
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    I've read some interview on the Internet in which show producers admitted they made him too powerful and didn't know what to do with him, so they sent him away. They admitted that as a mistake, of course.

    I also miss the character, and agree that he was too powerful. Also, I think that's one of the most serious flaws of S5, as the Anti Christ is a very important person in the Apocalypse, and here he was diminished to the monster of the week, practically.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [3]Oct 22, 2010
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    He's SO powerful he's hidden from everyone and erased all trace of himself so he will never appear or mentioned again.

    Probably best to just let sleeping dogs lie on this one since there's not really any practical use for a character that powerful who is a child and has no real reason to show up and do anything.

    I GUESS if they wanted they could do a whole "Twilight Zone" thing where he's holding a town hostage to his power becasue his power corrupted his nature. Other than that I don't see any point in even mentioning him again, best to just pretend it never happened.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [4]Oct 22, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    best to just pretend it never happened.


    Agreed. Of all SPN blunders, for me, this one reigns supreme at the first place
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [5]Oct 22, 2010
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    He's so powerful he retconned himself out of exsistance.
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  • Avatar of Shikady

    Shikady

    [6]Oct 23, 2010
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    In aruba drinking mojitos.

    It would be interesting if he's the big bad of the season. He's just doing this for fun...but now that I think about it...neh. It'll be like Lucifer with the Impala. They'll need something like that to defeat him so, no thanks. Once is enough.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [7]Oct 23, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    He's so powerful he retconned himself out of exsistance.


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  • Avatar of Kudorigami

    Kudorigami

    [8]Oct 23, 2010
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    Maybe Sera Gamble will be kind enough to tie up that loose end too. =)
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [9]Oct 23, 2010
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    Maybe he didn't REALLY go to that island paradise. Maybe he's hiding in the poster itself where no one will ever find him.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [10]Oct 23, 2010
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    Maybe the fans should check their box-sets - maybe he is so powerful he erased the episode from existence
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [11]Oct 23, 2010
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    Wow, I will have to check... hold on.

    Umm, just checked the whole episode has been oddly replaced with two reruns of "Mister Ed". This a factory defect?
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [12]Oct 24, 2010
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    Um, probably ; )

    But what are you talking about anyway? I don't see any posts above, and even the thread name is changed into "Seriously now, what happened to Mister Ed?"... : )
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [13]Oct 24, 2010
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    Wow, what's happening? I don't even remember what I was talking about. This a "Mister Ed" thread? I think I took a wrong turn somewhere. Weird.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [14]Oct 24, 2010
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    Hmmm... I knew I shoulda taken that left turn at Albuquerque.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [15]Oct 24, 2010
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    Always comes down to that doesn't it? My train of thought has totally derailed and I have no idea what's going on.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [16]Oct 25, 2010
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    Likewise
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [17]Oct 25, 2010
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    I have this feeling something happened but I don't recall what and when I try I get a headach and all I can think of are black and white talking horses. It's all very weird.
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [18]Oct 26, 2010
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    For me it's similar, only with flying elephants.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [19]Oct 26, 2010
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    I tried thinking about it really hard last night and got a nose bleed so I thought I should stop.
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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [20]Oct 30, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    Probably best to just let sleeping dogs lie on this one since there's not really any practical use for a character that powerful who is a child and has no real reason to show up and do anything. I GUESS if they wanted they could do a whole "Twilight Zone" thing where he's holding a town hostage to his power becasue his power corrupted his nature. Other than that I don't see any point in even mentioning him again, best to just pretend it never happened.


    I, of course, completely disagree with you but you already know thatLaughing. Anywho, since some did bring bring the subject up...


    Personally I think they created Jesse's character to hint to us that Sam is actually an Ant-Christ. I know it sounds weird but I do have a lot of evidence to back that up.



    First of all, in "I Believe the Children are Our Future", Castiel notes that the anti-Christ is not Lucifer's child as is normally assumed, but simply a demon spawn- meaning any child derived from a the consummation of a demon and a human. This brings us back to earlier episodes in seasons two and three where Sam is commonly referred to by Gordon, Ruby, demons, and even his brother jokingly, as the Anti-Christ. I would postulate that perhaps Gordon got it wrong. Sam isn't "the Anti-Christ" but simply "an Anti-Christ" and Mary, as crazy as it might sound, was possessed when Sam was conceived.


    After all, we know Azazel, on Lucifer's orders (see the season 4 finale), was looking for a specific and special child in 1972. We also know that in 1973 Azazel expressed interest in Mary during the season 4 episode "In the Beginning" and that when talking to Dean he notes that he's there "to choose the perfect parents, like your mommy....cause they're strong, they're pure, they eat their wheaties, my own little master race, they're 'ideal breeders'...(Dean looks at him). Oh get your mind out of the gutter. No one's breeding with me. Though Mary...man, I'd like to make an exception cause so far she's my favorite". To me that's a huge hint. What if Azazel possessed Mary or John in order to conceive Sam? As episode 6 of season 5 showed us, John wouldn't have even been needed since all a demon would have had to do was posses Mary and recreate inside of her. Further more reflect on the fact that the Supernatural Wiki webpage notes "in the Book of Enoch, Azazel was described as one of the leaders of the Grigori who were fallen angels who married and had children with human women".


    This brings me back to "Dark side of the Moon" and some of the memory scenes portrayed in that episode. Normally in TV shows memory moments are used for two things. The first is for tear jerker moments and the second is to reveal something to the audience they previously wouldn't have known. This episode has a bit of both, but specifically falls into the latter category due to two of the memory scenes- both of which include Mary Winchester. The first is the one where Mary is making Dean a sandwich when she gets a call from John that causes an argument between the two. Dean reveals to Sam that John and Mary had been fighting and that John had moved out for a few days. During the phone call we hear Mary tell John they're not discussing something again which obviously means Mary and John had been arguing about a specific subject for a little bit. John tells Mary he needs a little bit of time to think about something (obviously about whatever they were arguing about) and at the end of the conversation Mary tells John not to bother doing something, of which we would assume is simply referring to him coming home since Mary previously reminded him he had two children who needed their father around. This begs the question- what on earth would have made John Winchester leave his wife and children, even if it only was for a couple days? Now, one would at first assume John was simply on a hunting mission until they remembered that John didn't become a hunter until after Mary died. While Dean claims John and Mary didn't have actually have a great marriage and that John's claims otherwise were simply someone trying to green the grass on the other side, I don't buy it. The fact of the matter is that Dean couldn't have been older than three or four when the John moved out for the couple of days that he did because Dean is only four when his mother dies. This relates to the fact that most children below the ages of 5 or 6 really don't have great memory retention which makes me think Dean is simply making assumptions based on a few fragmented memories he has of his childhood at that age. This is just a guess but I think John realized something was strange about Sam after he was born (such as Sam showing abilities). For me this explains the detachment John always had towards Sam. I'm certainly not saying John didn't love Sam- there's no question given his overall actions throughout the years to protect Dean and Sam that he did- however, it can't be denied there was always a rift between the two and that John always seemed at arms length. If Mary and John witnessed Sam showing abilities when he was still one or two years old, it's possible John could have panicked and decided to run. Maybe after a few days he convinced himself he was just being foolish but after Mary's death, and his inquires into the nature of demons in the world, he once again began to believe that there was something strange about his son.


    Consider episode 2 of season 3, "The Kids are Alright", where Ruby explains to Sam that all of his mother's old contacts and friends are dead because Azazel, or other demons killed them (just like Meg started doing to John's friends at the end of the first season). Additionally, and just as importantly, it's worth referencing "In the Beginning" again where Azazel tells Dean that "I'm going to cover my tracks good" with reference to his overall end game. Some people, like Libra, believe this was done simply because Azazel knew Dean had angels on his side and thus wanted to get rid of any evidence of what he was doing (which was of course finding the prefect vessel for Lucifer apparently). I, However, have my own theory that if there was something strange about Sam and his birth, or after his birth for that matter (like Sam showing abilities), it isn't impossible that some of Mary and John's friends, hunters or non-hunters, would have also known something about it. Consider the second memory scene from DSOTM, which I referred to earlier, where Zachariah confronts Dean and Sam with his version of Mary Winchester and gives her yellow eyes just like Azazel's. If the hypothesis is true (that Azazel is Sam's father) the angels certainly would know of it as well and I certainly would not put it past Zachariah to wanted to have flaunted that fact in front of the boys in hopes that they might catch on. In Swan Song Lucifer even makes mention to Sam of a Luke Skywalker reference to Sam when he has possessed him noting that Dean and John were simply a foster family for most of Sam's life. One would assume this was a taunt that demons were around Sam just as much as his real family was but it could also be a hint by Lucifer to Sam's true heritage.


    From here it's worth noting that Sam has shown, albeit nothing to the same degree, some of the same abilities as Jesse does in "I Believe the Children are our Future". In episode 14 of season one, for example, he moves a cabinet without even touching it to save Dean. In the season 1 finale Azazel, when torturing the Winchesters at the cabin, mocks Sam and suggests that he use his telekinesis to grab the Colt to free himself and his brother. It was almost like Azazel wanted to see if Sam had developed any more abilities which where potentially stored within but not yet accessible. In season 2, despite being infected with the Crotoan Virus Sam is somehow immune and at the end of the episode a demon confirms to another demon (presumably Lillith or Azazel, or perhaps even Lucifer himself) that Sam was unaffected by the virus as they expected. During the season 3 finale Ruby tells Sam that if he wanted to he could wipe Lilith of the map with a though if he wanted to. Sound familiar at all? Kind of similiar to the way Jesse could cause things to happen just by thinking them. At the end of the episode we find out that Sam is immune to (some of) Lillith's powers (specifically her ability to fry people alive with white light). From there it's also worth noting that in "When the Levee Breaks" Sam unintentionally starts throwing himself around the panic room with his powers just the way he does to other demons. Now one might excuse this by claiming it was because Sam had demon blood in him but the fact of the matter was that Sam was in the middle of detox- he was tripping out because he didn't have enough demon blood in him which should have prevented him from throwing himself around. Hence, the only reason he should have been able to do what he did was if he already was part demon the way Jesse is.


    Next, many fans have already asked why the demons hadn't already tried to create more beings like Jesse but I would postulate that maybe they already had- maybe all of the special physic kids were "Anti-Christs'". After all, each of the special kids showed individual powers of which Jesse possessed in full, and some of them, like Ava and Jake, began to develop more powers as they began to increase there usage of them (see the 2 part finale of season 2 where Ava learns to control other demons and Jake learns to control other humans). It could be that that the demon blood fed to all of them by Azazel was simply the equivalent of breast feeding. Remember again that during the episode, "In the Beginning" Azazel notes that "demon blood is better than oval, team vitamins and minerals. It makes you big and strong!".


    Lastly, consider that in the pilot episode of Supernatural when there is a close up of Sam in his crib, and when Azazel is about to enter the room, the decoration toys hanging above Sam begin to move without Sam touching them. One would assume this was due to Azazel's presence in the house but what if it was actually Sam moving the toys? Now, the first response one would have is that Azazel hadn't infected Sam with demon blood yet so the idea that he would have had powers before that point is flawed. However, it could be that that the demon blood fed to all the special children by Azazel was, as I already mentioned, simply the equivalent of breast feeding, rather than an infection, which gave Sam and all the other special children powers. This would also explain the question that has been plaguing those of us who hate inconsistencies about why Mary did not catch onto the warning signs that there was a demon in the house (lights flickering, etc) when Azazel came to visit during the pilot episode- because she was so used to Sam causing the same occurrences.


    All in all I'm still not sure how this might play into this current season if I'm right but everything that has occured up until now still suggests that Sam isn't fully human and I still believe creating Jesse's character was an intentional act of forshadowing on the part of the writers.


    Anyways, just thought I share that since Xivile asked Tongue out.


    Oh and Pebbleson, do you think you could find me a link where some folks from SPN admitted creating Jesse's character was a mistake? I'm not saying I don't believe you but I'm curious if it was the writers or the producers that said it.

    Edited on 10/31/2010 11:19am
    Edited 2 total times.
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