Seriously now, what happened to the Anti-christ?

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    dpebbleson

    [41]Nov 4, 2010
    • member since: 11/06/09
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    Thanks! Discussing is always a pleasure, especially when people actually try to write more than a sentence. Regretfully, many left tv.com because of glitches, bugs and whatnot, so it's now a small party of adventurers fighting to keep this place going!

    Yeah, I remember 'agents of fate', I think it was Libs who mentioned it - and later it was implied in that 'Valentine' episode I think.

    Seriously now, what happened to the Anti-christ?
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    basenji529

    [42]Nov 4, 2010
    • member since: 03/12/09
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    libra113 wrote:
    If anything "Reaper" was a rip of "Brimstone".


    The term is "parody", because Brimstone was more serious. I mean, on Brimstone, most of the damned regret their actions. On Reaper, it's "How can the devil mannipulate them this week?" (The promo even had the devil as the puppet master with all of the characters on puppet strings.)


    Both were victims of Executive Meddling, though; Brimstone was canceled after 13 episodes, sadly.


    I wonder where the trope that Lucifer would not bow to God first came from, though. The oldest source I can find on it is in Islam, where Lucifer is referred to as Iblis. Like most Christian denominations, they also say the Satanim (prosecutors) and the Serpent are Iblis. Tropes present in Brimstone include:


    Achilles Heel: Removing the eyes...
    Affably Evil: Satan (of course). Any portrayal of Satan true to the mythology will portray him as this.
    Always Chaotic Evil: Subverted, the damned are genuinely penitent for their actions.
    Big Bad: Surprisingly, for a series canceled after 13 episodes, the show does reveal who is behind the escape: Ash, trying to resurrect her own worshippers. Ash even worries Satan!
    Bottomless Magazines: Handwaved; Zeke's gun is enchanted to never run out of bullets. Except the times it did.
    Boxed Crook
    Confessional
    Dont Tell Mama: Gilbert Jax, the guy who raped Stone's wife, was one of the 113. Stone doesn't have the heart to tell his mother that her son is a Complete Monster, and lets her believe that he sent Gilbert back to heaven.
    Evil Is Petty: Satan likes to loosen the tops to salt shakers and tie shoes together.
    Gods Need Prayer Badly: Presumably the reason Ash is doing all this.
    Gotta Catch Em All: Or, more accurately, gotta kill 'em all.
    Hero Of Another Story: Detective Ash, one of the 113.
    Improbable Aiming Skills
    Its Not You Its My Enemies: Pulled in the last episode
    Knight Templar: Father Salinas
    Magnificent Bastard: Satan, but Ash even more so.
    Monster Of The Week
    Numerological Motif: Go ahead. Look up Ezekiel 36:27.
    Redemption Quest
    Satan: Played by John Glover
    Screwed By The Network: It's FOX, after all.
    Sinister Minister: Father Salinas
    The Firefly Effect: Hence only being 13 episodes. Really, I never knew when it was on.
    The Hunter
    The Legions Of Hell
    Too Good To Last
    Trickster Mentor: Satan
    Walking Wasteland: "Carrier"
    With This Herring: A gun (albeit one with infinite ammo) and $36.27, which is replenished every day, to take down souls that have been damned since the dawn of time.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [43]Nov 4, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
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    mynameisjohnas wrote:

    dpebbleson wrote:
    mynameisjohnas wrote:


    Hahaha. You, my friend, should be a politician. You've got the whole diplomatic thing down to a T. Don't think I've ever had someone make a disagreement known to me in such a euphonistic way.


    Now is my time to laugh: hahahahah I dislike politics, but actually several weeks ago someone called me 'a born diplomat' Now, to continue in that vein: it's not that I disagree with your theories, I just think that you connect things better than writers themselves. The way you connected 'Sam is an Anti-Christ' is really astounding - and this is not boot-licking, I really think so. The problem is that the writers don't connect the dots that well in their own 'text', otherwise you should be right. Ironically, what you suggest is in a paradoxical way more probable than what they do on the show. Maybe they should hire you as a consultant ; ) In a more non-diplomatic way (just to show I can! : ) ): I don't agree with 'Crowley is Death' idea, but then again, even you say it's far-fetched. But possible - everything is possible until definitely proven wrong. But nonetheless it's an interesting theory. Did you write back then about 'ontological paradox' in those time-travel episodes? I found that interesting too, since time-travel makes my mind go haywire.


    Lol, well either way I do appreciate the sentiment. And not to boot lick either but, likewise, I appreciate your ideas too (and Libras for that matter although I'm sure he at timeswould doubt that) because you seem to be able to look at, and present theories/opinions, with well thought out feedback and evidence. For example, I did write about the whole ontological paradox thing but it was you who brought up the idea of angels being the "agents of fate"with regards to that whole subject which is something I hadn't considered before and isn't something many people would have bothered to dig that deep to reference and explain.

    I brought up the angels as agents of fate to explain how Dean couldn't change the past but Anna apprently COULD (or at least had enough of a chance to make Cas concerned). Cas said it himself in "On The Head of Pin" didn't know it had come up again lately. Did I miss something?
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [44]Nov 4, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    Thanks! Discussing is always a pleasure, especially when people actually try to write more than a sentence. Regretfully, many left tv.com because of glitches, bugs and whatnot, so it's now a small party of adventurers fighting to keep this place going!

    Yeah, I remember 'agents of fate', I think it was Libs who mentioned it - and later it was implied in that 'Valentine' episode I think.

    Seriously now, what happened to the Anti-christ?
    Wish I had read this post before I posted mine.

    Yeah I guess a cupid would also count as an angelic agent of fate but according to Cas all angels are agents of fate in one way or another and while "Supernatural" doesn't do the touchy feely "Touched by An Angel" thing the whole agents of fate thing does fit in with stories you hear where people are near death and are saved by what they classify as angels.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [45]Nov 4, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
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    basenji529 wrote:

    libra113 wrote:
    If anything "Reaper" was a rip of "Brimstone".


    The term is "parody", because Brimstone was more serious. I mean, on Brimstone, most of the damned regret their actions. On Reaper, it's "How can the devil mannipulate them this week?" (The promo even had the devil as the puppet master with all of the characters on puppet strings.)


    Both were victims of Executive Meddling, though; Brimstone was canceled after 13 episodes, sadly.


    I wonder where the trope that Lucifer would not bow to God first came from, though. The oldest source I can find on it is in Islam, where Lucifer is referred to as Iblis. Like most Christian denominations, they also say the Satanim (prosecutors) and the Serpent are Iblis. Tropes present in Brimstone include:


    Achilles Heel: Removing the eyes...
    Affably Evil: Satan (of course). Any portrayal of Satan true to the mythology will portray him as this.
    Always Chaotic Evil: Subverted, the damned are genuinely penitent for their actions.
    Big Bad: Surprisingly, for a series canceled after 13 episodes, the show does reveal who is behind the escape: Ash, trying to resurrect her own worshippers. Ash even worries Satan!
    Bottomless Magazines: Handwaved; Zeke's gun is enchanted to never run out of bullets. Except the times it did.
    Boxed Crook
    Confessional
    Dont Tell Mama: Gilbert Jax, the guy who raped Stone's wife, was one of the 113. Stone doesn't have the heart to tell his mother that her son is a Complete Monster, and lets her believe that he sent Gilbert back to heaven.
    Evil Is Petty: Satan likes to loosen the tops to salt shakers and tie shoes together.
    Gods Need Prayer Badly: Presumably the reason Ash is doing all this.
    Gotta Catch Em All: Or, more accurately, gotta kill 'em all.
    Hero Of Another Story: Detective Ash, one of the 113.
    Improbable Aiming Skills
    Its Not You Its My Enemies: Pulled in the last episode
    Knight Templar: Father Salinas
    Magnificent Bastard: Satan, but Ash even more so.
    Monster Of The Week
    Numerological Motif: Go ahead. Look up Ezekiel 36:27.
    Redemption Quest
    Satan: Played by John Glover
    Screwed By The Network: It's FOX, after all.
    Sinister Minister: Father Salinas
    The Firefly Effect: Hence only being 13 episodes. Really, I never knew when it was on.
    The Hunter
    The Legions Of Hell
    Too Good To Last
    Trickster Mentor: Satan
    Walking Wasteland: "Carrier"
    With This Herring: A gun (albeit one with infinite ammo) and $36.27, which is replenished every day, to take down souls that have been damned since the dawn of time.

    As I recall it was on Fridays back in the day.

    Ash was a nice touch.

    13 souls down and ended with a 100 to go.

    It's not accident that my screen name includes 113
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  • Avatar of basenji529

    basenji529

    [46]Nov 7, 2010
    • member since: 03/12/09
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    Tropes in Supernatural include


    A Date With Rosie Palms: Confirmed in "I Believe theChildren areOur Future"
    A Day In The Limelight: "Weekend at Bobby's"
    A Death In The Limelight: "Abandon All Hope", "Hammer Of The Gods"
    A Fete Worse Than Death: "Scarecrow"
    Abandoned Hospital: "The Asylum"
    Absurdly Spacious Sewer: "Skin"
    Abusive Parents: It may have been necessary, but John was neglectful and emotionally abusive.
    Acting For Two: "Skin", "Two And A Half Men"
    Actor Allusion: Pea soup
    Adaptation Dye Job: Anime Dean has black hair.
    Affably Evil: Casey in "Sin City"
    Affectionate Parody: "Hollywood Babylon", "Ghostfacers"
    Aliens In Cadriff
    All Myths Are True: Except Bigfoot
    Almighty Janitor: "Tall Tales"
    Alternate Character Interpretation: John: Loving father, or abusive? Sam: Saintly or self-righteous? Dean: Martyr or unhealthily attached to Sam? Did Ruby care about Sam at all?
    Always A Bigger Fish: You think the Monster Of The Week's bad enough. Wait until you see the demons. Bad enough for you? Well, then there are the angels. And Satan. And Death.
    Always Save The Girl: Notably averted.
    Anal Probing: "Tall Tales"
    And I Must Scream: Poor, poor Dr. Benton.
    Anti Anti Christ: Sam
    Anti Hero: Sam has OCD, Dean's a womanizer, they're codependent, they're too much like their father, oh, and if you didn't know, they support themselves through all sorts of crime.
    Anticlimax Boss: Death
    Anvilicious: "It's a Terrible Life": Working in an office is ZOMG EVIL!
    Anyone Can Die: Whether they stay dead is another matter.
    Apocalypse Maiden: Sam
    Arbitrary Skepticism: Demons exist, but angels don't. And God certainly doesn't.
    Archangel Gabriel: Trickster
    Archangel Michael
    Arson Murder And Jaywalking: Lucifer is wearing Sam like a cheap suit, Cas is a sex addict, the angels have all left, the Croatoan virus is worldwide, and SARAH PALIN IS PRESIDENT!
    Ass Shove: Sam gets one in "Changing Channels"
    At The Crossroads: Every Deal With The Devil is done at a literal crossroads.
    Audio Erotica: Castiel
    Author Appeal: I am convinced the writers are sadomasochists.
    Back From The Dead: Sam, Dean, everybody...
    Backstory: Constantly
    Bad Future
    Bad Guy Bar: "The Magnificent Seven"
    Badass Decay: Cas's power is somewhat nerfed in season 5. Then there's Dean in season 6.
    Badass Longcoat: Castiel
    Badass Normal: Dean doesn't have Sam's demon powers or Cas's angel powers, but he still beats up the Monster Of The Week with a shotgun, some Latin, some salt and holy water.
    Ballistic Discount: A mind-controlled man pulls this off, ending by shooting himself.
    Barrier Maiden: Lilith
    Bavarian Fire Drill: The boys regularly pose as FBI, police, even priests.
    Be Careful What You Wish For: "Wishful Thinking"
    Beauty Equals Goodness: Lucifer. Oddly, in Sam's body, he just makes Sam more bishonen.
    Because Destiny Says So
    Because I Said So
    Being Good Sucks: Sam and Dean are criminals, their parents and many other people close to them are dead, and both heaven and hell are after them because they don't want to submit to demonic or angelic possession.
    Being Tortured Makes You Evil
    Berserk Button: Do not call Sam Winchester a freak.
    Beware Of Hitchhiking Ghosts: "Roadkill"
    Beware The Nice Ones: Do not mess with Dean. Unless you want to get your ass kicked by Sam.
    Beyond The Impossible: "The way I see it, it's not really jumping the shark if you never come back down."
    Big Bad: Azazel in seasons 1 and 2, Lilith in seasons 3 and 4, Lucifer in season 5.
    Big Brother Instinct: Dean
    Big Brother Is Your Friend: I love how everyone trusts the FBI.
    Big Damn Heroes: Anna in "On the Head of a Pin".
    Big Eater: Dean
    Big Lipped Alligator Moment: The Ghostfacers in "Hammer of the Gods"
    Biggus Dickus; Crowley apparently sold his soul for one.
    Bishonen Line
    Biting The Hand Humor: In "I Believe the Children Are Our Future", the owner of a magic shop makes a reference to "kissy vampire stories". On the show after The Vampire Diaries.
    Blessed With Suck: Sam's visions of doom.
    Blind Seer: Silas in the comics, Pamela in the main series.
    Blood From The Mouth: Constantly.
    Blood Magic: The angel-banishing sigil.
    Bloody Bowels Of Hell: How Meg describes hell.
    Bluff The Impostor: Subverted: Shapeshifters have all the original's memories.
    Body Surf: Ruby tends to do this.
    Bound And Gagged: Again, know your audience.
    Bowel Existence Failure: Averted in the Groundhog Day Loopepisode.
    Break The Cutie: Sam, Dean, Cas...
    Breather Episode: Usually used to indicate the angst will be turned Up To Eleven in the next one.
    Brick Joke: Castiel complains that the demons are causing all sorts of death and destruction and ate his tailor. Later, we learn Crowley was a tailor.
    Bro Yay: Invoked constantly.
    Broken Angel: Castiel
    Broken Base: Psychology, action, or Hardy Boys with Hotties? Sam girls and Dean girls and slash fans. Wincest vs. Dean/Cas. Monster Of The Week vs. Myth Arc.
    Broken Hero: Both Sam and Dean.
    Cain And Abel: Subverted withSam and Dean, played straight with Michael and Lucifer. Wait, wasn't Noah's family Seth's descendants? Wait, Abel had children?
    Came Back Wrong: Constantly.
    Cartwright Curse: Poor Sam
    Cassandra Truth: Gordon was right about Sam. Surprise.
    Catch Phrase: "Idjit!"
    Cerebus Syndrome: Granted, it wasn't that light to begin with...
    Chekhovs Gun: The rings
    Chekhovs Gunman: Hey, remember how theangels want Dean to be Michael's vessel for keeps? Remember how Dean rejected the angels? Remember howthe ability to survive demonic or angelic possession ishereditary?Remember how the angels can raise the dead? Remember how Sam and Dean have a half-brother?
    Chekhovs Skill: Using pipes to get out of demon/angel traps.
    Christianity Is Catholic: Subverted: The anti-demon militia is Lutheran.
    Christmas Episode
    Clap Your Hands If You Believe: Mordechai the meme ghost
    Classical Movie Vampire: Subverted in "Monster Movie"
    Cleans Up Nicely: They're hardly ugly even when being torn apart by hellhounds, but in tuxedos?
    Cold Turkeys Are Everywhere: Sam may be clean, but hunting demons does nothing for his demon blood habit.
    Comatose Canary: Dean at the beginning of season 2
    Continuity Drift: Compare vampires' dietary requirements in season 1 to those in later appearances.
    Continuity Nod: The tattoos.
    Cool Car: The Impala
    Cosmopolitan Council: The gods in "Hammer of the Gods" include Odin, Mercury, and Kali.
    Council Of Angels: Heaven is apparently somewhat of a bureaucracy, as God has gone AWOL.
    Crapsack World
    Creator Provincialism: It's amazingthat the Apocalypse takes place entirely within the United States. Not even a reference to Israel or Italy.
    Creepy Child: Lilith in season 3.
    Creepy Doll: "Playthings"
    Criminal Doppleganger
    Crossover Cosmology: Just like All Myths Are True, all gods are real, though apparently not all equal, since Lucifer takes down ten of them.
    Crowning Moment Of Awesome
    Crowning Moment Of Funny
    Crowning Moment Of Heartwarming
    Crowning Music Of Awesome: "Carry On My Wayward Son", "Back In Black"
    Cuckoo Nest: "Sam, Interrupted"
    Cue The Sun: "Bugs"
    Dagwood Sandwich: Dean is fond of these.
    Dark And Troubled Past
    Dark Messiah: Deconstructed with Sam in season 4. Sam thinks he is this. (He's really The Antichrist.)
    Darker And Edgier: Two brothers are searching for their missing father and fighting demons. Then...
    Dawson Casting: Powerfully averted: The brothers are exactly the same age as the actors.
    Dead Ex Machina: John in "All Hell Breaks Loose"
    Dead Little Sister: Gordon's sister. Subverted since he killed her himself.
    Deadly Prank: "Hell House"
    Deal With The Devil: Of course.
    Death By Gluttony: "My Bloody Valentine"
    Death By Pragmatism: Subverted by Ruby
    Death Faked For You
    Death In The Clouds: "Phantom Traveler"
    Death Is Cheap
    Deconstruction: "Live Free or Twi-hard"
    Demon Slaying
    Demonic Possession
    Depending On The Writer: Sam's **** and Dean's ditziness go up and down like a yo-yo.
    Depleted Phlebotinum Shells: The gun
    Depth Of Field: This show loves placing Dean and Castiel in the background of each other's scenes.
    Despair Event Horizon: Dean in "On the Head of a Pin"
    Devil But No God: Basically assumed until season 5.
    Did Not Do The Research: Nowhere does the Bible say the Antichrist is Lucifer's son. "Samhain" isn't pronounced right.
    Die For Our Ship: Any female character
    Directed By Cast Member: "Weekend At Bobby's"
    Does This Remind You Of Anything: The MonsterOf The Weekin "Something Wicked" reminded me of a child molester. The vampire in "Fresh Blood" is played like a sexual predator, and Sam's need for demon blood is played like a drug addiction.
    Doppleganger
    Downer Ending: Too many to count.
    Dysfunction Junction
    Even Evil Has Standards: Meta: Ask Wincest fans their feelings about Daddycest.
    Fandom Nod: "The Monster At The End Of This Book"
    Fantastic Aesop: "After School Special"
    Flatline Plotline: "Death Takes A Holiday"
    For Want Of A Nail: "In The Beginning"
    Fore Shadowing: "Agent Ford and Agent Hamill".
    Freaky Friday Flip: "Swap Meat"
    Funny Aneurysm Moment: In episode 106, Dean says Sam's alright for lying. That never bit him in the ass later on.
    Gainax Ending: The season 5 finale
    Groin Attack: "Changing Channels"
    Hunting The Most Dangerous Game: "The Benders"
    Ironic Hell: Dean on a meat hook.
    Journey To The Center Of The Mind: "Dream A Little Dream Of Me"
    Lotus Eater Machine: "What Is And WhatShould Never Be"
    Make A Wish: "Wishful Thinking"
    Mind Control: "Simon Said"
    Mind Screw: "What Is And What Should Never Be"
    Monster Clown: "Everyone Loves A Clown"
    Monster Of The Week
    Mundanger: "The Benders"
    Nice Job Breaking It Hero: The season 4 finale
    Noir Episode: "Monster Movie"
    Oubliette: The cage.
    Our Angels Are Different: Angelic possession.
    Parents For A Day: "Two And A Half Men"
    Satan
    Screw Destiny
    Sealed Evil In A Can
    Seeking Sanctuary: "Salvation" and "I Know What You Did Last Summer"
    Shapeshifter Guilt Trip: "Skin"
    Show Within A Show: "Ghostfacers"
    Stable Time Loop: "In the Beginning"
    Take That Scrappy: Ruby really is helping Lilith
    Ten Little Murder Victims: "Nightshifter"
    The Atoner: Sam in season 5, mostly because he was such a jerkass in season 4.
    The Big Guy: Dean
    The Chew Toy: Dean, quite literally.
    The Corruption: Castiel tells Dean that Sam consuming enough demon blood to take down Lilith will turn him into a monster. Of course, in season 5, it's their only hope.
    The Cutie: Dean
    The Dark Side
    The Dark Side Will Make You Forget: Sam pretty much runs out of excuses by the end of season 4.
    The Documentary: "Ghostfacers"
    The Lancer: Sam
    The Scrappy: Lisa, Ruby
    The Rashomon: "Tall Tales"
    Through The Eyes Of Madness: "Sam, Interrupted"
    Time Travel: "In the Beginning", "Song Remains the Same"
    Trapped In TV Land: "Changing Channels"
    Trickster Archetype: Gabriel
    Wham Episode: Any finale
    What Cliffhanger: "Croatoan"
    Xanatos Roulette: Azazel pulls one off.
    Xanatos Sucker: Both brothers manage to break the seals this way.
    Your Worst Nightmare: "Yellow Fever"
    Zombie Apocalypse: Lucifer's endgame

    Edited on 11/08/2010 8:30am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [47]Nov 8, 2010
    • member since: 05/02/08
    • level: 6
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    • posts: 121

    dpebbleson wrote:
    Thanks! Discussing is always a pleasure, especially when people actually try to write more than a sentence. Regretfully, many left tv.com because of glitches, bugs and whatnot, so it's now a small party of adventurers fighting to keep this place going! Yeah, I remember 'agents of fate', I think it was Libs who mentioned it - and later it was implied in that 'Valentine' episode I think. Seriously now, what happened to the Anti-christ?



    Well, Libra was the first one to use the term (aside from Cas in OTHOAP) but you were the first one in that thread to suggest the implication:


    dpebbleson wrote:


    that there is free will, everything is a matter of free will, but there are some agents that influence others so much that they can guide their destinies. For example, our parents have so much control over our early years of development, that we become specific persons largely to them influencing us in this period. It doesn't have to mean we don't have free will, though - even if Heracl.itus says 'Character is destiny'. We still are our own persons, and will continue to develop and have our say. Even if our choices are limited to two, we can still choose. This way, I think angels are powerful agents that can obviously manipulate time, space and people and guide their destiny therefore. This still doesn't mean Sam and Dean didn't have free will, it's just they were knowingly or unknowingly forced into some decisions.



    So yeah, it was the angels as agents of fate mixed with the limited free will idea that I appreciated. I just couldn't remember the entire thread. Either way though my point was that I find you, and Libra for matter, are just fun to talk to and debate things with because you actually have something mindful to contribute to different subjects, whetheror not we agree or disagree,as evidenced by the thread I just brought back up. Not that other users don't as well, but you two are usually two of the few who actually reply to my posts, lol.

    Edited on 11/08/2010 11:21am
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  • Avatar of dpebbleson

    dpebbleson

    [48]Nov 8, 2010
    • member since: 11/06/09
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    mynameisjohnas wrote:
    Either way though my point was that I find you, and Libra for matter, are just fun to talk to and debate things with because you actually have something mindful to contribute to different subjects, whetheror not we agree or disagree,as evidenced by the thread I just brought back up. Not that other users don't as well, but you two are usually two of the few who actually reply to my posts, lol.




    Much appreciated and reciprocated! : )


    And wow, I totally forgot I wrote that thing above! I still can't believe tv.com doesn't let me write the name of an Old Greek philosopher! I tend to write long posts myself, so probably that's why I like reading long, long posts with lots of theory, speculations and whatnot. Especially when they bring some outside references to philosophy, myth and whatnot.


    So what do you think about Crowley? His Deus ex Machina powers bother me. Do you think he's lying about or overestimating his powers? And to be honest, if he really brought Sam from Hell and Samuel from Heaven, then you scored an extra point in your 'Crowley is Death' theory, since in my opinion, only God or Death would be able to do such things with such ease.


    I can sense thunderous Libra's reply so I'm getting away!

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [49]Nov 8, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
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    Maybe. I STILL think Crowley is fronting for something else that doesn't want it's invovlment known.

    Perhaps, Belthazar (or even Raph)or Death wanted to install Crowley as the king of Hell (for whatever reason, stability, getting their plans back on track, etc...) so intead of openly being seen as being in leauge with Hell they help push him in taking over himself.

    Now, his agenda and that of Raph (who wanted Lucifer free and to ends the world) are not compatable so unless one (or both) of them is working a con on the other that's not a likely match.

    While, I'm not a fan of the idea that Death and Crowley would be the same entity that doesn't prevent them from perhaps working together to a common end.
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  • Avatar of mynameisjohnas

    mynameisjohnas

    [50]Nov 11, 2010
    • member since: 05/02/08
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 121

    dpebbleson wrote:


    mynameisjohnas wrote:
    Either way though my point was that I find you, and Libra for matter, are just fun to talk to and debate things with because you actually have something mindful to contribute to different subjects, whetheror not we agree or disagree,as evidenced by the thread I just brought back up. Not that other users don't as well, but you two are usually two of the few who actually reply to my posts, lol.




    Much appreciated and reciprocated! : )


    And wow, I totally forgot I wrote that thing above! I still can't believe tv.com doesn't let me write the name of an Old Greek philosopher! I tend to write long posts myself, so probably that's why I like reading long, long posts with lots of theory, speculations and whatnot. Especially when they bring some outside references to philosophy, myth and whatnot.


    So what do you think about Crowley? His Deus ex Machina powers bother me. Do you think he's lying about or overestimating his powers? And to be honest, if he really brought Sam from Hell and Samuel from Heaven, then you scored an extra point in your 'Crowley is Death' theory, since in my opinion, only God or Death would be able to do such things with such ease.


    I can sense thunderous Libra's reply so I'm getting away!



    Crap, I really should be working right now, haha.


    Like mostly everyone I think he's lying, at least to an extent. I could concieve of him myabe pulling Sam's body out of the cage sinceSam was still alive when he went in and, as others have noted, one would assume the cage is meant for spiritual entities, not physical ones. However, I can't concieve of him having enough to juice to get Sam's soul out or for that matter getting Grandpa Campbell out of Heaven despite whatever extra power he may have as the supposed King of Hell. With regards to his claim of having Sam's soul and raising Samuel, I think he just said that so he, and Sam for that matter, can manipulate Dean into helping hunt for alphas. If anyone has Sam's soul and raised Samuel, like you and Librasaid, the only entity I can concieve of would be Death. Either, as I've argued before, Crowley is Death, or the two are working together which works just aseasy for ananswer.


    Then again, there is another explanation which works if we consider Crowley was lying outright about being able to give Sam's soul back because it's still in the cage- Crowley and Castiel are working together (I talked about this in far more detail in the Family Matters thread) I say this becauyse if Cas can get a soul out of Hell, as a simple solder angel, I don't really have a problem with him, as the sheriff of Heaven (or whatever it was he was called in Swan Song) being able to get someone out of Heaven. Thus theoretically, I think it's possible that Crowley may have convinced Castiel to get Samuel out of Heaven, because the two know he's a great hunter and that Samuel may just not remember Castiel (remember that Dean didn't remember Castiel when they first met on earth either despite Castiel pulling him out).


    Hence, in completley none homoerotic way, I'm now actually hoping we get to see Samuel without a shirt to see if he has any hand prints on him, lol.

    Edited on 11/11/2010 3:55pm
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [51]Nov 11, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
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    I've finally nailed down why I don't like the Death is Crowley idea. It's the Trickster is Gaberial all over again. It's not really required for the story and ruins TWO perfectly good characters in the process.

    All we really have is gramps word that he was in Heaven. While it's seems possible (unless he's done something we don't know), he could just as easily been in Hell. In any case Crossroad Demons bring people back from the dead all the time, surely SOMEONE has tried to deal for a soul that's in Heaven so there MUST be some way to pull it off (as it wouldn't exactly be good for business to turn a customer away or give them shotty goods ).

    It's possible that Crowley withhead Sam's soul not by choice or as an insurance policy but becasue he COULDN'T get it out. Maybe he's counting on his plan to work to be able to pull the soul return off or maybe he's just gonna double cross Sam in the end.
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    dpebbleson

    [52]Nov 12, 2010
    • member since: 11/06/09
    • level: 24
    • rank: Golden Girl
    • posts: 5,659
    mynameisjohnas wrote:

    dpebbleson wrote:


    mynameisjohnas wrote:
    Either way though my point was that I find you, and Libra for matter, are just fun to talk to and debate things with because you actually have something mindful to contribute to different subjects, whetheror not we agree or disagree,as evidenced by the thread I just brought back up. Not that other users don't as well, but you two are usually two of the few who actually reply to my posts, lol.




    Much appreciated and reciprocated! : )


    And wow, I totally forgot I wrote that thing above! I still can't believe tv.com doesn't let me write the name of an Old Greek philosopher! I tend to write long posts myself, so probably that's why I like reading long, long posts with lots of theory, speculations and whatnot. Especially when they bring some outside references to philosophy, myth and whatnot.


    So what do you think about Crowley? His Deus ex Machina powers bother me. Do you think he's lying about or overestimating his powers? And to be honest, if he really brought Sam from Hell and Samuel from Heaven, then you scored an extra point in your 'Crowley is Death' theory, since in my opinion, only God or Death would be able to do such things with such ease.


    I can sense thunderous Libra's reply so I'm getting away!



    Crap, I really should be working right now, haha.


    Like mostly everyone I think he's lying, at least to an extent. I could concieve of him myabe pulling Sam's body out of the cage sinceSam was still alive when he went in and, as others have noted, one would assume the cage is meant for spiritual entities, not physical ones. However, I can't concieve of him having enough to juice to get Sam's soul out or for that matter getting Grandpa Campbell out of Heaven despite whatever extra power he may have as the supposed King of Hell. With regards to his claim of having Sam's soul and raising Samuel, I think he just said that so he, and Sam for that matter, can manipulate Dean into helping hunt for alphas. If anyone has Sam's soul and raised Samuel, like you and Librasaid, the only entity I can concieve of would be Death. Either, as I've argued before, Crowley is Death, or the two are working together which works just aseasy for ananswer.


    Then again, there is another explanation which works if we consider Crowley was lying outright about being able to give Sam's soul back because it's still in the cage- Crowley and Castiel are working together (I talked about this in far more detail in the Family Matters thread) I say this becauyse if Cas can get a soul out of Hell, as a simple solder angel, I don't really have a problem with him, as the sheriff of Heaven (or whatever it was he was called in Swan Song) being able to get someone out of Heaven. Thus theoretically, I think it's possible that Crowley may have convinced Castiel to get Samuel out of Heaven, because the two know he's a great hunter and that Samuel may just not remember Castiel (remember that Dean didn't remember Castiel when they first met on earth either despite Castiel pulling him out).


    Hence, in completley none homoerotic way, I'm now actually hoping we get to see Samuel without a shirt to see if he has any hand prints on him, lol.



    Indeed, Samuel should have prints on him if an angel released him. I think Crowley is lying, because he is a lying liar who lies See, a circular definition can solve everything! : ) Maybe he is working with Castiel, who knows, though my guess is Balthazar. They both seem to be extra keen on souls.

    Or he could be working with Death for some reason - or, as you say, be Death himself - or itself... : ) Anyways, I agree with Libra that it would be too much Trickster-->Gabriel like, which was not received so well I think.
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    libra113

    [53]Nov 12, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
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    I know I haven't talked to many people who liked the idea (espcially since it seemed so pointless as the story would have worked just fine without that little twist).

    Yeah, my top two suspects for Crowley's silent partner are either Belthazar or Death.
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    basenji529

    [54]Nov 13, 2010
    • member since: 03/12/09
    • level: 15
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    I'm pretty sure Death is not Crowley. Death is eternal. Crowley was human; I distinctly remember thinking Of all the Faustian bargains ever, his is the lamest.

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    libra113

    [55]Nov 13, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
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    basenji529 wrote:


    I'm pretty sure Death is not Crowley. Death is eternal. Crowley was human; I distinctly remember thinking Of all the Faustian bargains ever, his is the lamest.


    Well, male enhancement is a billion dollar a year industry for a reason.

    Edited on 11/13/2010 2:20pm
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    basenji529

    [56]Nov 14, 2010
    • member since: 03/12/09
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    Maybe it's just because I'm on the other end of the spectrum: The guy being envied, not the guy envying.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [57]Nov 14, 2010
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
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    basenji529 wrote:

    Maybe it's just because I'm on the other end of the spectrum: The guy being envied, not the guy envying.

    It seems awfully foolish to me as well but then again who knows if that's the REAL reason or if it was just paragraph one of the contract.
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