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The Origins of The Colt and the Allegiance of Samuel Colt (possible spoilers)

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    mynameisjohnas

    [1]Jan 24, 2011
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    So, given that we've an "Old West" episode coming up (which I'm assuming will be this season's time travel episode) I thought I'd start a some what related thread with regards to the nature and origins of the Colt.

    Like Ruby's knife and Death's Scythe, little is known about the Colt and why it was created. I've heard some people muse that they thought that the gun might have been created by angels given it's power; personally I was of the mind that it might have been created by demons because both Ruby and Crowly had the knowledge to create more bullets for the gun after the brothers originally used them up. However, another idea occurred to me after hearing that they were going to be doing a wild wild west episode.

    What if the Colt was created by both angels and demons? I know it sounds weird, but it's not entirely illogical. Consider that the one of the gun's functions, other than killing just about anything in existence, was to open the Devil's Gate. Both Azazel and the angels would have wanted the gun in existence because had it not been created, Jake never could have opened the Devil's Gate and released Lillith, who Sam could then kill and release Lucifer setting the stage for the final battle between Lucifer and Michael.Angels would have probably been able to design it with the ability to kill just about anything (other than other angels since we know it didn't kill Lucifer and because Uriel notes that the only thing that can kill an angel is another angel with...what ever their blades are called). Azazel would have probably been able to design it with the ability to kill other demons(since who knew the nature and essence of demons better than him?). Like I said, I know it sounds weird but I'll explain in more detail why I think this is possible.

    This, of course, however, still leaves the question of why Samuel would have ever designed the gun with the key function for the Devil's Gate or why he then created a massive Devil's Trap out of train tracks to keep demons out. The first act suggests that Samuel was actually working for Azazel's side and the second suggests that he was working against Azazel. I have 3 theories to explain this.

    1- Samuel Colt was at first on Azazel's side but had a change of heart when he realized what he had done (kind of like Einstein after he helped invent the hydrogen bomb)- hence why he created the Devil's Trap around the Devil's Gate.

    2- Samuel was possessed by a demon (maybe Azazel?) when he created the gun and afterwards he realized something wasn't right and decided it best to hedge his bets and makes sure demons couldn't access the Devil's Gate by creating the Devil's Trap around it. Afterwards maybe an angel contacts him and shows him how to restructure the gun to kill everything that it is currently able to kill.

    3- Samuel Colt is actually Sam Winchester. Sam and Dean go back in time in the upcoming Wild West episode (maybe sent unwillingly by Raphael) and end up having to construct the Colt to make sure history plays out the way it did.

    This is of course just one of my crazy weekly ideas but hear me out. Given that Supernatural is no stranger to ontological paradox's, and given that we have a Wild West episode coming up, it is possible that angels send the brother's back in time to have the gun created, just in the same way Castiel unknowingly sent Dean back into time to introduce his mother to Azazel. As I said earlier, the upper management in Heaven would have wanted the gun created just as much as Azazel's side and since Raphael is still aiming to put the apocalypse on track he would have reason to see the brothers sent back in time for such a reason. If Sam does help create the Colt it would explain why the gun was created with the functions and limits it currently has- because if it hadn't been history wouldn't have played out the way it did. Perhaps both angels and demons help the brothers design the gun for that very reason and they name the gun the Colt as a homage to Sam because, more so than any other person in history, he was quintessential to their plans.

    ....However, I do have to admit that since Azazel didn't recognize Dean in 1973 it doesn't make sense that Dean would have time traveled back to 1835 and met Azazel influencing the creation of the gun. I don't know...maybe Sam goes on his own the way Dean went on his own in season 4.

    Either way I'm not saying I like the idea of Sam being Samuel Colt (a little too "Heroes" season 2 for me) but it could fit given the above reasoning if we're going to have a time travel episode to the Wild West.

    Anyways, this is complete speculation and as usual I could be wrong (lol), but I am curious as to what others think so I thought I'd get the ball rolling.
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    libra113

    [2]Jan 24, 2011
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    Well, firstly since Colt is a real life person with a history before and after the point he, in the "Supernatural" universe created the Colt he can't be someone from the present. For that to work Sam would have to either replace the dead Colt and be him for the rest of his life (unlikely) or just somehow stand in for that point in time and yet no one around would notice the diffrence.

    I've often suspected that angels talked to Colt, perhaps in his dreams, and inspired him to create the colt, the tracks, etc... as a way to lock down a naturally exsisting portal from Hell and keep demons from using it.

    It's also been hinted (at least I seem to remember it being hinted) Colt himself may have been a hunter and may have come across knowledge that lead him to create all that to plug the hole himself.

    It's also possible that either Sam or Dean (or both) are the hunter that John said Colt made the gun for in the first place. Perhaps they DO influence him to make the colt and everything else (or at least put the idea in his head). Of course unless they bring the Colt with them (as a guide) or lear HOW to create one and pass the information on to him themselves then there still has to be a greater power invovled.
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    basenji529

    [3]Jan 25, 2011
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    I don't know. Fullmetal Alchemist used Fritz Lang, who is also F├╝hrer King Bradley's alter ego in our timeline. They were going to use Rudolf Steiner instead, but this worked out pretty well. Oh, and it's implied the Holocaust was just so Hohenheim could get enough souls together to form a philosopher's stone so he and his son Ed could go back to their own universe.

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    libra113

    [4]Jan 25, 2011
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    Yeah but this isn't Japanimation, this is live action American tv and it wouldn't make any sense for Sam to be Sam Colt as well. What about the time before Sam traveled into the past? What about the time after he leaves? That can't be Sam too. It wouldn't make any sense.

    However, it WOULD work for Sam and/or Dean to be the hunter(s) that Colt make the gun for assuming they can bring the present one with them to reverse engeneer or they can get ahold of some kind of notes on HOW it's made or Cas is there and can instruct him in some way.
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    basenji529

    [5]Jan 26, 2011
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    Gannon-BANNED for saying "Japanimation"!


    There are many other examples. I mean, technically, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is a crossover of all sorts of 19th-century figures, real and fictional; and a Venture Bros episode had a parody of them with the early 20th century, such as Aleister Crowley and Eugen Sandow.


    Shows aren't always true to history. I mean, when I was a kid, all the kids were into Power Rangers; as near as I can tell, Angel Grove started as a British colony in the vicinity of Los Angeles witha reservation nearby which is home to a group of plains Indians with a magic arrowhead that is divided in two and if the two ever come together, it would unleash cosmic horrors. Oh, and sabertooth tigers, pterodactyls, and mammoths are dinosaurs now. (Don't forget dragons!) And Tommy and Kim are distant cousins. Ew.

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    libra113

    [6]Jan 26, 2011
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    Well yeah but League is much more fictional characters than real people and Venture Brothers (as much as I love it) is hardly a serious show. I don't think "Supernatural" would pull that.

    Thing is Colt was a real person whoes birth is well documented as was his life and death. So unless Sam gets changed into a baby and lives his whole life it wouldn't make sense and would just be silly.

    Now, as I said he and or Dean COULD be the hunter who puts him up to maker the Colt that WOULD make sense since nothing is ever said about this mysterious hunter.

    Also, it occured to me eariler today that Mary may have named him Sam not becasue of her father but becasue he used to tell her the story of the Colt as a child (as mention in "In the Begining") and she did it out of a fond childhood memory of both her father and the story.
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    _Dargor_

    [7]Jan 26, 2011
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    All that is known about Samuel colt in the supernaturalverse so far is that he created the Colt.



    That Colt was a real person and is documented in REAL life doesn't mean the writters won't use it.



    The Samuel Colt that creates the Colt could very well be a different Samuel Colt than the one depicted in history books. It's easy to play around with whatever you want when you're writting the show just like they made the anti-christ a nice guy or how they made pagan gods weaklings. We won't know for sure until the episode hits.

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    libra113

    [8]Jan 27, 2011
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    But how could you possibly sell the idea that Sam could go back and take his place?

    Unless they look exactly alike or, as I said, Sam is turned into a baby the switch is made there, then the people who know him are going to notice. It wouldn't make any sense.
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    kdtfiles

    [9]Jan 27, 2011
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    You know I'm a fan of the time-paradox stuff...the whole idea that it's the boys who while trying to change things in the past to prevent their past and future are the ones who screw things up and are the ones who untimatly set things into motion, the very things they are trying to prevent in their present...so, hopefully this is what the ep will be, and the whole Samuel Colt thing will only be a side-bar...

    That being said...

    Why not throw in a theory on how they could have Samy be Samuel Colt...

    Okay, so if they do travel back into time and one thing leads to another. Sam may strike a resemblance to Colt ( there hasn't been anything to say he plays to roles in the ep, so maybe they will use a body double who looks like Jared, or they go with not showing Colt's face during the ep ) anyway... and he could just be using his name as a way of completing whatever task it is they are there to do...if the people in the area they are in don't know Colt personally, may have heard the name and only seen sketches of Colt in the papers, he could get away with it...thus Sam, for their time in the past, IS "Samuel Colt", but it wouldn't affect anything in Colt's past prior to them being there nor would it affect his life after they are gone.

    Going off the thing about what John told the boys... They team up with Colt and for some reason he asks Sam to take his place on a hunt - or something - he needs... Kinda like they get him started on making "The Colt" and because it will take him longer than he thought he sends the boys to hunt something killing people in a nearby town...or he gets the gun done and tells them before they can have it they have to do a hunt for him...thus keeping in line with John telling the boys the story of Colt making the gun for a mysterious hunter...the hunter being the boys.

    Than again...Who said it HAS to be Sam, maybe it is DEAN who could pretend to be Colt!

    Okay so, far less detailed than I'd normally but serious need of caffeine, so brain not in full theory making mode right now...Feel free to tare my theory apart.
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    libra113

    [10]Jan 27, 2011
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    Well, still think it would be better and much cleaner if Sam, Dean or Sam and Dean are the hunter(s) that Colt makes THE Colt for (John did say that he made the Colt for a hunter), rather than either of them standing in for him.

    Standing in for him isn't really required for the story and it would be a neat nod to the original story of the Colt for Sam and Dean to be the ones to get him to make the gun.

    Also, since Sam and Dean don't have a clue HOW to make the Colt Cas could give them the ritual/blueprints and they could pass it on to Colt so it's like I had said devine intervention.

    Also, it could be explained that Ruby knew how to make the bullets becasue maybe SHE is there (the 1800's version) possessing someone nearby to carry out some task or other and gets ahold of the bullet part of the plans while trying to steal them and the Colt itself.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [11]Jan 28, 2011
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    I would very much prefer they didn't go the route of having Sam being Samuel Colt because even though I'm midly excited about this episode if they make it another confusing and illogical time travel episode it will ruin it for me what would be interesting if they found Samuel Colt was Sam and Dean ancestor so they be watching history in the making with the legend made by their great grandfather
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    libra113

    [12]Jan 28, 2011
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    Could be, could be. I'm still hung up on that mysterious hunter he made the Colt for in the firs place.

    To me the only illogical thing they did with the whole time travel thing was in "The End" when future Dean didn't remember traveling to the future when he was present Dean.

    I know they said in the commentary that it made sense but, when you REALLY think about it, it REALLY doesn't.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [13]Jan 28, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Could be, could be. I'm still hung up on that mysterious hunter he made the Colt for in the firs place.

    To me the only illogical thing they did with the whole time travel thing was in "The End" when future Dean didn't remember traveling to the future when he was present Dean.

    I know they said in the commentary that it made sense but, when you REALLY think about it, it REALLY doesn't.



    Yeah time travel episodes are usually illogical loopholes because the past is part of the future but a western episodes fun and interesting
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    libra113

    [14]Jan 29, 2011
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    Well, it's really just a matter of thinking it through and "Supernatural" did a bang up job of that. Like I said the only issue I had was the whole future Dean not remembering thing but apprently they wrote it that way the first time but thought it would confuse people (really? not this crowd I'm Sure) or it messed up their script. Still would have been nice if he remembered though.

    The best move they did was have Micheal scrub John and Mary's memory otherwise it would have been a major mess.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [15]Jan 29, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, it's really just a matter of thinking it through and "Supernatural" did a bang up job of that. Like I said the only issue I had was the whole future Dean not remembering thing but apprently they wrote it that way the first time but thought it would confuse people (really? not this crowd I'm Sure) or it messed up their script. Still would have been nice if he remembered though.

    The best move they did was have Micheal scrub John and Mary's memory otherwise it would have been a major mess.



    I'll make a exeception to the western episode because it be interesting to see how the hunters were 150 years ago in SPN universe and the demons will be nervous so it can be awesome and epic episode that is even better than the meta episode
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [16]Jan 29, 2011
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    I actually started one about the Colt set in the old west but it was about the time they showed that suddenly it was the key to a gateway to Hell and I had to go back and rethink then there was something else I didn't plan on so I stopped and never got back to it.

    Basically, an ancester of Elkins was hunting vampires and eventually would have uncovered demons as well, met Colt and yadda, yadda.

    The whole thing was actually a long flashback as Sam and Dean were reading his journel of the events including notes on how to make the Colt. Of course, in the end, the notes would have been lost again...
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    mynameisjohnas

    [17]Jan 30, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, still think it would be better and much cleaner if Sam, Dean or Sam and Dean are the hunter(s) that Colt makes THE Colt for (John did say that he made the Colt for a hunter), rather than either of them standing in for him. Standing in for him isn't really required for the story and it would be a neat nod to the original story of the Colt for Sam and Dean to be the ones to get him to make the gun.


    Agreed.


    libra113 wrote:
    To me the only illogical thing they did with the whole time travel thing was in "The End" when future Dean didn't remember traveling to the future when he was present Dean.


    Provided that was actually Dean's own future. From my understanding of the episode (even though I haven't watched the commentary yet)there always somewhat of a question regarding whether what Dean saw was actually the real future or just a fake version (or dream of some sort) that Zacharia created to try and manipulate Dean into saying yes to Michael. Provided it was a fake version future Dean's lack of memory of having made the trip himself could simply be passed off as something Zach forgot to incorporate.


    kdtfiles wrote:
    You know I'm a fan of the time-paradox stuff...the whole idea that it's the boys who while trying to change things in the past to prevent their past and future are the ones who screw things up and are the ones who untimatly set things into motion, the very things they are trying to prevent in their present...so, hopefully this is what the ep will be, and the whole Samuel Colt thing will only be a side-bar...


    I'm with you on being a fan of time-paradox's. While not entirely original it's incorporation into the overall story line was very well done (not to mention I'm a sucker for time travel plots) and Dean and Sam's struggle against it has been quite Shakespearian if I may invent a word for lack of a better one. That being said it will be interesting to see how the brothers procede if they are sent back in time given last episode's renewal of the debate about free-will and given their previous failures to actually change the past.

    Edited on 01/30/2011 8:32pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [18]Jan 30, 2011
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    Well, I've heard some fans speculating that the future was faked but nothing offical and it seems more likely that had Dean not seen that future he wouldn't have stood for Sam's plan and the end of the last season would have gone VERY diffrently.

    Personally, I would have kind of liked to see that future unfold and see this season be about the early days of Sam/Lucifer taking control and destroying the world as we saw, then again I'm twisted like that.
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    kdtfiles

    [19]Jan 31, 2011
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    It would have been nice to see more of Sam/Lucifer, if only for one or two more eps...Jared made a good badguy
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    libra113

    [20]Jan 31, 2011
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    Yeah, I would have loved to see the show go in the direction of "The End" but realistically I understand why that wouldn't be possible. Oh well.
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