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what do you think is up with sam

  • Avatar of jack756

    jack756

    [21]Oct 15, 2010
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    thanks

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  • Avatar of Mickis

    Mickis

    [22]Oct 15, 2010
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    Pretty nifty theories.


    It's obvious something about Sam is just not right. But is it supernatural or is the guy just damaged goods? The fact that there was streetlight flickering/blowing out nearby Sam at the end of last season suggests it's something supernatural. But all interviews I've seen and read seem to insist that Sam is still Sam. Maybe they're just trying to lead us in that direction so the audience will be surprised? I dunno.


    As for angels raising Gramps to use him as a vessel. Uh... he's a Campbell. The archangel possession line seem to be something priveledged to John's family line. John, Sam, Dean, Adam. I don't think Samuel would be of much use to them, as far as vessels go.

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    ARealGenius007

    [23]Oct 16, 2010
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    Mickis wrote:

    Pretty nifty theories.


    It's obvious something about Sam is just not right. But is it supernatural or is the guy just damaged goods? The fact that there was streetlight flickering/blowing out nearby Sam at the end of last season suggests it's something supernatural. But all interviews I've seen and read seem to insist that Sam is still Sam. Maybe they're just trying to lead us in that direction so the audience will be surprised? I dunno.


    As for angels raising Gramps to use him as a vessel. Uh... he's a Campbell. The archangel possession line seem to be something priveledged to John's family line. John, Sam, Dean, Adam. I don't think Samuel would be of much use to them, as far as vessels go.



    The episode "Jump the Shark" does prove that what with Adam being John's son and subsequently an alternative vessel for Michael, as does "The Song Remains the Same" when Michael uses young John as his vessel, however in "My Bloody Valentine" when the Cherub tells Sam and Dean that their parents were a top priority match-up, one could assume that it is the combination of Campbell and Winchester blood that created the bloodline needed to be a true vessel to Michael or Lucifer. So having Samuel Campbell be a vessel might not be completely out of the question. While I'm at it my theory on Sam is that in the course of downing gallons of demon blood, he lost a some of his humanity. In season four it was suggested that drinking too much would change him forever, basically creating a monster. On top of that Sam watched himself eviscerate Cas, snap Bobby's neck and nearly kill his own brother. Then he took a day trip to hell and as we witnessed with Dean, hell is a **** so I think Sam's been pushed too far and he's broken and he's possibly become one of the things he hates most in the world a monster. That being said I think Sam getting back on the road with Dean and remembering the good times will re-instill his humanity.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [24]Oct 16, 2010
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    Well, I've begun to wonder if the light thing might have been caused by something else, a bit of a misdirect if highly conveient.

    Also, the Cupid thing MIGHT have been their way of making sure that Lucifer's vessle and Micheal's vessles were brothers, part of the whole destiny brother vs brother thing.

    Maybe the Campbell family are the bloodline that goes with Lucifer and the Winchester bloodline goes with Micheal. Together Sam and Dean could technically take either but their sides were choosen (and likely locked in at this point)by their birth order and all that.

    Of course Micheal COULD be hiding out in Sam right now just waiting to jump to Dean and Lucifer could be hiding out in Gramps somehow. Hell, they could BOTH be in there fighting for control or whatever.
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    englishshewolf

    [25]Oct 23, 2010
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, I've begun to wonder if the light thing might have been caused by something else, a bit of a misdirect if highly conveient. Also, the Cupid thing MIGHT have been their way of making sure that Lucifer's vessle and Micheal's vessles were brothers, part of the whole destiny brother vs brother thing. Maybe the Campbell family are the bloodline that goes with Lucifer and the Winchester bloodline goes with Micheal. Together Sam and Dean could technically take either but their sides were choosen (and likely locked in at this point)by their birth order and all that. Of course Micheal COULD be hiding out in Sam right now just waiting to jump to Dean and Lucifer could be hiding out in Gramps somehow. Hell, they could BOTH be in there fighting for control or whatever.



    I think it's pretty obvious what's up with Sam. He has no compassion/empathy now but he's still Sam. I'm gonna put my guess in white as i'm so confident because once you see it you can't unsee it Only his body came back ,he has no soul it is still in hell. He is still in hell kinda

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  • Avatar of sara_sol

    sara_sol

    [26]Oct 23, 2010
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    Intresting thread...


    I think the flickering lights when Sam shows up on the street could be a sign, or just a tease that will come back later on in the series (someone demonic watching him maybe).


    And about Sam being inhibited by Lucifer in some degree, it could make some sense. They are obviously connected by the demonblood and my opinion is that the whole brother thing is intresting for L.


    After all, he is the "fallen one" and has, according to Crowley, no greater love for the "minions" he's created. (Also, Michael is the one who wants this fight the most (of what we have seen), and wants to punish Lucifer for his crime against heaven.) Lucifer wants an in to heaven again, and no matter what his intentions are when he gets there, the first step to get there is either to fight Michael or Rafael, or make peace.


    Hence to the other connection. How many centuries haven't Lucifer and Michael been at each others throats? Isn't there some possibility that Lucifer is intrigued by the human turn on the brother-agains-brother deal. After all, Sam did what Lucifer and Michael didn't, he chose brotherhood first. And the last thing Lucifer saw of D and S was them sticking together and Sam breaking through Lucifers mind because of his love for his brother. So maybe Lucifer is dormant in Sam and Sam knows but doesn't dare tell anyone. And L is watching from the back of Sams mind waiting for an opportunity to manipulate S to break him out of the cage.


    What we also know is that being a vessel is supposed to destroy your sanity, and Sam is obviously not destroyed completely. And it's definetely Sam that's back, because noone we know of so far has the ability to break out Lucifer from the cage without the rings.



    As for grandpa, his presentation in the series so far hasn't really been the most flattering one. The first thing that comes to mind is him (although possessed) kissing his daughter. Ugh! I don't think we're ment to sympathize with him. He's bad news.


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    Prugaroes

    [27]Oct 23, 2010
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    Im just going to say it to stop these theories, Sam is the setup for the new shape-shifter villain (which is what he is). The writers wanted to move away from the angels / demons storyline in the monster direction and Samuels family is the group that follows Dopple-Sam which you will find out two episodes from now. The only reason the heaven plot was even mentioned was to bring Castiel back into the storyline and to potentially give the writers something to work with; however, it will not be a major focus this season.



    Cheers, Stephen

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  • Avatar of sara_sol

    sara_sol

    [28]Oct 23, 2010
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    Prugaroes wrote:

    Im just going to say it to stop these theories, Sam is the setup for the new shape-shifter villain (which is what he is). The writers wanted to move away from the angels / demons storyline in the monster direction and Samuels family is the group that follows Dopple-Sam which you will find out two episodes from now. The only reason the heaven plot was even mentioned was to bring Castiel back into the storyline and to potentially give the writers something to work with; however, it will not be a major focus this season.



    Cheers, Stephen



    WTF?

    Is this something you know or is it just what you think? Because I watch the episodes, hence I don't read the storyline first.. So if this is something you know because you've read it somewhere or something, post SPOLIER on the message. And stop reading these theories if it's that annoying for you...
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [29]Oct 23, 2010
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    I wouldn't worry about it, ages ago we had someone on here to said they worked on the show in some minor postion and they confiendly declared some massive spoiler or another (forget what it was exactly but it was some major question at the time) and it turned out they were WAY off.

    It's HIGHLY unlike that Sam isn't (at least physcially) Sam and we already saw the shifter Alpha AND Sam in the same episode so they're NOT one in the same.

    If anything I would say it's mental trauma or much more likely that he's not alone inside his own skin.
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  • Avatar of JoeWashington8

    JoeWashington8

    [30]Oct 23, 2010
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    Here's my theory:


    Sam left his soul behind in Hell either by force or as a part of some deal he made with a demon (probably Crowley) to survive in Hell because, let's not forget, he went into Hell a living human being, not a dearly departed soul like Dean after he got killed by the Hellhounds. Maybe to survive the torment of Hell without losing his mind, he had to lose his soul. Him losing his soul would explain his emotionally detached behavior. He has his memories and his personality but when it comes to human expressions, they function more on instinctional responses and out of habit than on actual emotions. Either next episode or a little after that, we're going to findt his out and at some point, Sam and Dean would have to journey into Hell to get his soul back or be forced to deal with Crowley, the new King of Hell, to get it back. But that all depends on Sam's cooperation because in his mind, being without a soul makes him a better hunter. Thinking this way would make him blind to the drawbacks of losing a soul which is his lack of concern for Dean and others like the boy from Episode 3. Sooner or later, Sam will either realize that he needs to get his soul back to become complete or be forced go along with the plan to get back his soul somehow.


    When Sam does get his soul back, I wouldn't be surprised if he goes through one hell of a guilt trip over the things he's done without a soul. Maybe it'll ruins his taste in the hunting life. Dean would find himself back to being Sam's rock again and maybe then we'll see their brotherly bond go through a process of rebuilding trust in each other.

    Edited on 10/23/2010 1:01pm
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [31]Oct 23, 2010
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    Well, it's a sound idea but since he was already in Hell body and soul I'm not sure what he COULD offer a demon to get out and let's not forget he was in Lucifer's cage which is another level of security and since no demons had seen Lucifer (hence his being a myth)I don't know if demons even have acess to that part of hell.

    Further, would that technically make him a zombie? Could be since "Supernatural" zombies can be just like people but then again plantlife also witheres around them, they tend to be pretty killcrazy, etc... He COULD be considered killcrazy (about what you would expect for a hunter), don't recall if he's even been around flowers.

    Could be that his soul is being held in exchange for the Alphas. Possible. I can't say that it's likely that we will SEE Sam and Dean traveling to Hell anytime soon (too expensive).
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    Beecharm3r2

    [32]Oct 25, 2010
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    Well, after seeing Life Free or TwiHard, I'm beginning to think Sam's Sam only now he's part demon. More so. I know it might seem as though its been done on this show but think about it. When he was human, in the finale last year, he had to injest Gallons of demon blood, plus he had been drinking a lot the year before and with blood and Supernatural it all becomes part of you. So the way I see it its like this: Dean was forced some blood, just a little and it started to turn him completely into a vampire.
    Sam drank a ton of blood and he was just...fine? Nope. He was pumped full of it then Lucifer took over. I think Lucifer did get Sam in touch with a part of him that liked to hurt people and then Sam was in Hell...so I think when he got back its like Sam's still full the demon blood and has that bloodlust but is focussing it on demons. Still obviously, his moral compass is skewed but he's trying to focus it in a 'healthy' manner at killing powerful demons.

    I don't know if that makes sense, but that's my theory.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [33]Oct 25, 2010
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    Well, it would be in character. The way he ended up messing up before was trying to make lemonaid out of lemmons and failing horribly so it's possible he hasn't learned from his past mistakes and is doing it all over again.

    It would be a shame to go through all that and not learn anything but, I've said it before and I will say it again: Winchesters are slow learners.
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    mynameisjohnas

    [34]Oct 29, 2010
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    JoeWashington8 wrote:


    Here's my theory:


    Sam left his soul behind in Hell either by force or as a part of some deal he made with a demon (probably Crowley) to survive in Hell because, let's not forget, he went into Hell a living human being, not a dearly departed soul like Dean after he got killed by the Hellhounds. Maybe to survive the torment of Hell without losing his mind, he had to lose his soul. Him losing his soul would explain his emotionally detached behavior. He has his memories and his personality but when it comes to human expressions, they function more on instinctional responses and out of habit than on actual emotions. Either next episode or a little after that, we're going to findt his out and at some point, Sam and Dean would have to journey into Hell to get his soul back or be forced to deal with Crowley, the new King of Hell, to get it back.



    That would also help explain why Sam stopped Dean from burning Crowley's bones. If Sam made a deal with Crowley which got him out of hell, even at the cost of his soul, Sam might feel a perverse and yet logical kind of gratitude towards Crowley, even without a soul. Not to mention that Sam might be worried that if Crowley died while in possession of his soul some other demon might get a hold of it.


    And Libra, you're assuming Sam would have had to have made the deal in hell. However, if Sam was ready to send himself to hell to stop Lucifer there's no reason he couldn't have made the deal before he and Dean left to go after him at the beginning of Swan Song.


    After all, it's not like it would have been a bad deal for Sam. He was going to hell regardless of what he did so why wouldn't he make a deal that got him 10 extra years on earth as opposed to simply condemming himself to Lucifer's cage for eternity within a couple of days?

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    Sektos

    [35]Oct 29, 2010
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    Sam could very well still retain his soul but having gone to the pit where time travels faster (Even than Hell) he started to have his humanity removed; the process that creates demons.

    This however could be very anticlimatic as oppose to procession or transformation into monster (though demon process can count as this). Depends on how they play it
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [36]Oct 29, 2010
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    The more I think about it the more I think it's purely psychological trauma.

    Seems to me that if it's just that he's possessed or something the fix would be WAY too easy whereas if he's just mentally damaged and messed up it could take a VERY long time for him to recover (assuming he even accepts that he's damaged and ends up WANTING to change).

    Seems the more dramtic and juicy storyline that way.
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    JoeWashington8

    [37]Oct 29, 2010
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    I just saw tonight's episode and next episode's preview. It proves that I was right. Sam did come back without a soul which is why he has been acting why he has been.

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    libra113

    [38]Oct 29, 2010
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    Yeah too bad they had to spoil the suprise by putting it in the ad. My question is this: he a zombie now?
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    sunnykimmy

    [39]Oct 30, 2010
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    sunnykimmy wrote:


    Maybe Sam made some kind of deal in hell to get himself out of there because he thought that Dean wouldn't since he told him not to try and it cost him his humanity,his ability to empathize,to feel. Maybe the awkward emotionless moments between Sam and Dean in the premiere episode were intentional and not bad writing as everyone thought.



    I was right. Sam has no soul. Althoughhe genuinely doesn't seem to know how he ended up without it.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [40]Oct 30, 2010
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    sunnykimmy wrote:

    sunnykimmy wrote:


    Maybe Sam made some kind of deal in hell to get himself out of there because he thought that Dean wouldn't since he told him not to try and it cost him his humanity,his ability to empathize,to feel. Maybe the awkward emotionless moments between Sam and Dean in the premiere episode were intentional and not bad writing as everyone thought.



    I was right. Sam has no soul. Althoughhe genuinely doesn't seem to know how he ended up without it.

    I'm still saying Death did it. He wanted Sam in the pit and made sure Dean went along so he could bring him back without a soul and do whatever he's doing now.

    Now, the question is: did Death ALSO raise up gramps (and maybe the mysterious cousins)for the same reason or was it someone else and both Sams think they're fooling and using the other for THEIR own ends?
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