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What happend to Colts gun?

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    Legs02

    [21]Mar 10, 2011
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    Doesnt Bobby use the colt in "Then there were none" I'm sure he does


    plus didnt Meg take the knife from the boys during the whole thing with Crowley and the Alphas?


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    libra113

    [22]Mar 10, 2011
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    oxohydroxo wrote:
    I know its the brothers show, but just for the sake of the argument. You have a very very good friend, you have been to hell and back with him. Your life is in danger, your entire species is in danger, and you don't ask for help? Same goes for Cas, i bet the brothers could help, and for the sake of the plot the writers go against logic and decide that they have to face their challenges on their own. What? Sorry but friends wouldn't behave like that. How could they help him? Summon Raphael for example, just like when robo-Sam wanted to keep his soul out, trap him in a circle of holy fire, burn him to a crisp. As to Castiel's powers, we know that he can instantly move from one place to another. Teleport or bend space whatever. I don't see a problem to drop any freak or monster into a volcano or into space. Takes about 3 seconds of his time. Cas comes every time Dean calls him. I am not convinced by your arguments. Al tho they are good ones.
    Okay two points: (1) That would be WAY too easy and no show or movie is going to undercut their drama with a quick and easy fix (and if they do then they were no good to start with) and (2) they each have respect for each other and know that they're all in the middle of big personal wars and aren't going to call each other away for selfish reasons.

    Are Dean (or Sam now that he has a soul) REALLY going to risk the fall of Heaven just to get Cas to help with the situation on Earth?

    Is Cas going to ask Sam and Dean to turn their backs on the human race to save Heaven for him (nevermind how it would ruin Cas's credibility to have mere humans come and save him, makes him look weak in the eyes of his fellow angels).

    Add into that, I'm sure, is a level of pride and an unwillingness to ASK for help in the first place. I'm sure that Sam and Dean feel as if they're to blame on some level for, as the show keeps saying, breaking the world and they were raised to clean up their own messes.

    There are a lot of issues here and it's pretty complicated when you get down to examining it closely.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [23]Mar 10, 2011
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    oxohydroxo wrote:
    Furthermore the possibilities with time travel. Cas or others under his command (he doesn't have to help every time personally) doesn't have to answer to anybody anymore. So there are no rules. It just seems to me, the writers give the protagonists powers and possibilities to use, but after they serve their purpose for which they were written into the script in the first place, they seem to forget about them, because they storyline wouldn' benefit from them. The weapons, abilities and powers just don't disappear so ignoring them is for me one of the plot holes. That doesn't seem like planing to me, that's why i think its improvisation.
    Well, there may not be a higher power to awnser to exactly but Cas doesn't seem the type to manipulate the timestream and mess with history for his own ends and I doubt he would knowingly consort with any angel who would.

    When you're talking about Heavenily power and weapons there are likely a lot of failsafes and side effects we're not aware of that would make tampering with them willy nilly VERY dangerous.

    Now I COULD see someone like Raph (whoes already shown he's a bit fast and loose with the rules) doing something something like that but then he would have to be stopped like Anna was when she tried to kill John and Mary in the past.
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    gatoraderising

    [24]Mar 11, 2011
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    oxohydroxo wrote:
    I know its the brothers show, but just for the sake of the argument. You have a very very good friend, you have been to hell and back with him. Your life is in danger, your entire species is in danger, and you don't ask for help? Same goes for Cas, i bet the brothers could help, and for the sake of the plot the writers go against logic and decide that they have to face their challenges on their own. What? Sorry but friends wouldn't behave like that. How could they help him? Summon Raphael for example, just like when robo-Sam wanted to keep his soul out, trap him in a circle of holy fire, burn him to a crisp. As to Castiel's powers, we know that he can instantly move from one place to another. Teleport or bend space whatever. I don't see a problem to drop any freak or monster into a volcano or into space. Takes about 3 seconds of his time. Cas comes every time Dean calls him. I am not convinced by your arguments. Al tho they are good ones.


    Well would you ask a friend to risk everything just to help you. If Cas was to help the brothers with Mother who knows how long that would take. Cas is in tough spot, he could help the brothers with mother and lose heaven. If Cas lost heaven Raph would jump start the apocalypse again. Raph would break Lucifer and Micheal out and the out come of their fight would be far worst then mothers plan. Plus severing the connection between heaven and earth would make for alot more plot holes then you think they are now.
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  • Avatar of oxohydroxo

    oxohydroxo

    [25]Mar 11, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Okay two points: (1) That would be WAY too easy and no show or movie is going to undercut their drama with a quick and easy fix (and if they do then they were no good to start with) and (2) they each have respect for each other and know that they're all in the middle of big personal wars and aren't going to call each other away for selfish reasons. Are Dean (or Sam now that he has a soul) REALLY going to risk the fall of Heaven just to get Cas to help with the situation on Earth? Is Cas going to ask Sam and Dean to turn their backs on the human race to save Heaven for him (nevermind how it would ruin Cas's credibility to have mere humans come and save him, makes him look weak in the eyes of his fellow angels). Add into that, I'm sure, is a level of pride and an unwillingness to ASK for help in the first place. I'm sure that Sam and Dean feel as if they're to blame on some level for, as the show keeps saying, breaking the world and they were raised to clean up their own messes. There are a lot of issues here and it's pretty complicated when you get down to examining it closely.


    You even read what i am writing or just glance over it? To not do something just because its easy and would not help the drama level just proves my point, its the very definition of a plot hole. A sign of good writing is just the exact opposite, to do stuff just like it would happen in the real world. Keeps the viewer more plug in, it feels more real and the experience is better. The respect argument is a bunch of crap. Just imagine yourself in their position (your family and friends and everyone you know in danger).


    2nd) why are u still stuck on the one thought that helping one of them would kill any chance of winning the war in heaven or vise versa? Just like i wrote, would take a few seconds of rational thinking. Cas is the perfect poster boy for rule breaking in heaven, so your argument in the latter comment is invalid. Furthermore Anna was stopped by Michael, who is out of the picture. As to the dangers of the weapons i can't seem to remember any problems using the staff of Moses or the crystal thingy used to destroy Raphael's vessel (even if the staff was used without its full power, it was used by a kid for heavens sake...).


    As to gatoraderising > why would it create more plot holes? The angels just came to earth because of the apocalypse. They haven't shown up 2000 years before, so as far we know, that's the natural order of things, angels stay in heaven (many times confirmed in various episodes).



    As to Colt's gun, they didn't even use it when they were hunting Crowley, which just ads to the fact that the writers use the weapons and abilities only when it helps the plot or drama (hint > another plot hole). I have a memory and i am capable of rational thinking, so when i see an opportunity that makes my life easier or helps the cause or others i take it, or at least try. Seems like the series protagonists aren't capable of that (or the writers) > the deal with death to get Sam's soul back, why work with Crowley in the 1st place when u know you got that last card to play? I like the series and the cast, but the plot seems to have more holes like a swiss cheese.

    Edited on 03/11/2011 11:29am
    Edited 2 total times.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [26]Mar 11, 2011
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    oxohydroxo wrote:


    libra113 wrote:
    .


    You ).


    2nd) why are u still stuck on the one thought that helping one of them would kill any chance of winning the war in heaven or vise versa? Just like i wrote, would take a few seconds of rational thinking. Cas is the perfect poster boy for rule breaking in heaven, so your argument in the latter comment is invalid. Furthermore Anna was stopped by Michael, who is out of the picture. As to the dangers of the weapons i can't seem to remember any problems using the staff of Moses or the crystal thingy used to destroy Raphael's vessel (even if the staff was used without its full power, it was used by a kid for heavens sake...).


    As to gatoraderising > why would it create more plot holes? The angels just came to earth because of the apocalypse. They haven't shown up 2000 years before, so as far we know, that's the natural order of things, angels stay in heaven (many times confirmed in various episodes).



    As to Colt's gun, they didn't even use it when they were hunting Crowley, which just ads to the fact that the writers use the weapons and abilities only when it helps the plot or drama (hint > another plot hole). I have a memory and i am capable of rational thinking, so when i see an opportunity that makes my life easier or helps the cause or others i take it, or at least try. Seems like the series protagonists aren't capable of that (or the writers) > the deal with death to get Sam's soul back, why work with Crowley in the 1st place when u know you got that last card to play? I like the series and the cast, but the plot seems to have more holes like a swiss cheese.





    I agree the introduction of God weapons has been a retcon . If God has carelessly left his weapons laying around all this time then why wouldn't Cas think to tell the boys to go find them in Dark side of the moon at least they have more likely chance of finding i tinstead of searching for some deadbeat dad and there lethals weapon so they would surely turn Lucifer in to dust.

    Edited on 03/11/2011 12:16pm
    Edited 4 total times.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [27]Mar 11, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    oxohydroxo wrote:


    libra113 wrote:
    .


    You ).


    2nd) why are u still stuck on the one thought that helping one of them would kill any chance of winning the war in heaven or vise versa? Just like i wrote, would take a few seconds of rational thinking. Cas is the perfect poster boy for rule breaking in heaven, so your argument in the latter comment is invalid. Furthermore Anna was stopped by Michael, who is out of the picture. As to the dangers of the weapons i can't seem to remember any problems using the staff of Moses or the crystal thingy used to destroy Raphael's vessel (even if the staff was used without its full power, it was used by a kid for heavens sake...).


    As to gatoraderising > why would it create more plot holes? The angels just came to earth because of the apocalypse. They haven't shown up 2000 years before, so as far we know, that's the natural order of things, angels stay in heaven (many times confirmed in various episodes).



    As to Colt's gun, they didn't even use it when they were hunting Crowley, which just ads to the fact that the writers use the weapons and abilities only when it helps the plot or drama (hint > another plot hole). I have a memory and i am capable of rational thinking, so when i see an opportunity that makes my life easier or helps the cause or others i take it, or at least try. Seems like the series protagonists aren't capable of that (or the writers) > the deal with death to get Sam's soul back, why work with Crowley in the 1st place when u know you got that last card to play? I like the series and the cast, but the plot seems to have more holes like a swiss cheese.





    I agree the introduction of God weapons has been a retcon . If God has carelessly left his weapons laying around all this time then why wouldn't Cas think to tell the boys to go find them in Dark side of the moon at least they have more likely chance of finding i tinstead of searching for some deadbeat dad and there lethals weapon so they would surely turn Lucifer in to dust.

    Because they weren't just laying around all this time Balthazar stole them from Heaven and brought them to Earth at somepoint before the current season and everyone thought he was dead until recently.
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  • Avatar of oxohydroxo

    oxohydroxo

    [28]Mar 12, 2011
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    @ Libra113 but still they had them in heaven, so why the Armageddon style throw down with Michael. Cas had access to heaven most of the time, during the 5th season, he could have stolen them just like Balthazar did, kill Lucy, put them back. More and more plot holes emerging.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [29]Mar 12, 2011
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    oxohydroxo wrote:
    @ Libra113 but still they had them in heaven, so why the Armageddon style throw down with Michael. Cas had access to heaven most of the time, during the 5th season, he could have stolen them just like Balthazar did, kill Lucy, put them back. More and more plot holes emerging.
    Because the angels WANTED it and it was Micheal's destiny. There's no way that Cas' supriors would have allowed anything that deviated from their plan and since, by all accounts, the weapons were kept locked up it's not like Cas could have flown up to Heaven, picked out a holy howezer and blown Lucifer away single handedly.

    Which brings me to another point about the current season. What makes ANYONE think Cas is powerful enough to take on and defeat the Mother of All all on his own and in quick order? I tend to doubt he COULD kill her by himself or that easily.

    Also what makes anyone think that he could come down here, wave his hand and take out all the threats that Sam, Dean and Bobby are dealing with so quickly and easily and that even five minutes of distraction wouldn't end up costing Cas a war he's already dangerously close to losing?

    I think a lot of these 'plotholes' people are trying to point out assume things that we just don't know. We have no idea that Cas is THAT powerful and if he is then WHY is he losing the war so badly.

    God may having given him a Heavenly power up to make him more eqaul to Raph (perhaps forseeing the war) but I doubt the powerup puts him anywhere near the same weight class as Eve herself who can spawn new and old monsters at will and, likely, has powers we haven't even seen yet.
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    gatoraderising

    [31]Mar 13, 2011
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    oxohydroxo wrote:
    @ Libra113 but still they had them in heaven, so why the Armageddon style throw down with Michael. Cas had access to heaven most of the time, during the 5th season, he could have stolen them just like Balthazar did, kill Lucy, put them back. More and more plot holes emerging.


    Once Cas rebelled aganist heaven he was cut off from there. Cas said it himself in "Dark side of the moon" that he couldnt return to heaven. Thats why Sam and Dean had to find Joshua in heaven and Cas didnt just do it himself. So I dont see how you think Cas could have stolen the weapons from heaven in the first place.

    Maybe its me but im not seeing all of the plot holes emerging like you are saying.
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    libra113

    [32]Mar 13, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    oxohydroxo wrote:
    @ Libra113 but still they had them in heaven, so why the Armageddon style throw down with Michael. Cas had access to heaven most of the time, during the 5th season, he could have stolen them just like Balthazar did, kill Lucy, put them back. More and more plot holes emerging.


    Once Cas rebelled aganist heaven he was cut off from there. Cas said it himself in "Dark side of the moon" that he couldnt return to heaven. Thats why Sam and Dean had to find Joshua in heaven and Cas didnt just do it himself. So I dont see how you think Cas could have stolen the weapons from heaven in the first place.

    Maybe its me but im not seeing all of the plot holes emerging like you are saying.
    I agree. Seems people are forgetting their chronology OR are supposing that Cas is WAY more powerful than we've seen.

    The idea that he could (now) just fly down and take Eve out in five seconds is just silly and based on nothing we've seen thusfar.

    Eve is the major baddie this time around and it's going to take WAY more than Cas to stop her even if he didn't have a major war (that he's badly losing BTW) to distract him.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [33]Mar 13, 2011
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    If Death scythe can possibly kill Death himself couldn't it kill Lucifer?
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    oxohydroxo

    [34]Mar 14, 2011
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    @ libra113 About the weapons: I was talking about the time Cas had still access to heaven but already shown doubt about the intentions of his superiors. If Balthasar could steal the weapons so could Cas. (or u think Balthasar did it with the knowledge of his superiors? please...) About power levels, please this is not pokemon, just because someones power level is not high enough doesn't mean he can't win. As far we know Eve can only travel by natural means (on foot or using vehicles etc..). Just teleport her to the far side of the moon and she won't be able to return to earth... As to the time frame, we know it wouldn't cost him the victory because he did it sever times even for an entire night while helping the brothers defeat Crowley.



    @libra113 i think u aren't capable of rational thinking because all your arguments are based is pokemon style logic: if someone is sooo strong he can't have other limitations... lol. Raphael was so strong but Dean and Cas managed to trap him, they could have killed him right then and there (fry his wings extra crispy). Stick your head out of your butt and try to think critically for a second. No matter how powerful Eve is if she can't travel like the angels "beaming" her out of reach would be almost the same as defeat.



    @RachellleMcAdams the death scythe thing is another good question, Crowley knew where to find it, took him like few minutes (btw Crowley can find it but Death itself cant? lol...) and they didn't even try it on Lucy.

    Edited on 03/14/2011 6:09am
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    gatoraderising

    [35]Mar 14, 2011
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    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [36]Mar 14, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak



    Killed of all who?
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    libra113

    [37]Mar 14, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    If Death scythe can possibly kill Death himself couldn't it kill Lucifer?
    Doubtful. Not sure it's all about power levels so much as certain things are made to kill certain things.

    There are probably very few things, if any, that can actually kill Lucifer himself and I doubt any of them would be just laying around on Earth.

    In fact, given what we saw, Micheal and his 'sword' are probably the only game in town and even if they weren't anyone who would actually know would keep it to themselves for one reason or another (either becasue they were on Lucifer's side OR becasue they were a higher angel who wanted the Micheal/Lucifer dust up).
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [38]Mar 14, 2011
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    oxohydroxo wrote:

    @ libra113 About the weapons: I was talking about the time Cas had still access to heaven but already shown doubt about the intentions of his superiors. If Balthasar could steal the weapons so could Cas. (or u think Balthasar did it with the knowledge of his superiors? please...) About power levels, please this is not pokemon, just because someones power level is not high enough doesn't mean he can't win. As far we know Eve can only travel by natural means (on foot or using vehicles etc..). Just teleport her to the far side of the moon and she won't be able to return to earth... As to the time frame, we know it wouldn't cost him the victory because he did it sever times even for an entire night while helping the brothers defeat Crowley.



    @libra113 i think u aren't capable of rational thinking because all your arguments are based is pokemon style logic: if someone is sooo strong he can't have other limitations... lol. Raphael was so strong but Dean and Cas managed to trap him, they could have killed him right then and there (fry his wings extra crispy). Stick your head out of your butt and try to think critically for a second. No matter how powerful Eve is if she can't travel like the angels "beaming" her out of reach would be almost the same as defeat.



    @RachellleMcAdams the death scythe thing is another good question, Crowley knew where to find it, took him like few minutes (btw Crowley can find it but Death itself cant? lol...) and they didn't even try it on Lucy.

    I doubt a lesser angel COULD get acess to the armory (espcially one that they already knew was questioning, remember he got demoted at one point), the only way Balthazar did it was he took adavantage of the choas of angel on angel warfare (as I recall it was near the start of the war), faked his death and probably didn't let on to anyone that he was doubting the powers that be.

    Exactly, HOW do you know what Eve can and can't do? How do you know she can't teleport, or that she can't just wave her hands and turn to Cas to ash? We haven't seen her DO much of anything yet and already you feel like you know all her strengths and weakeness. THAT seems like it's YOU who needs to pull your head out of your backside and stop assuming things you don't know just to try and find plotholes.

    Yes she COULD be a thousand time more powerful than God himself and still have weaknesses but just having weaknesses doesn't mean that Cas can exploit them, NOR that he KNOWS how to exploit them or that he would even have a chance.

    As for Death's Scyth. If that was an option (which is unlikely) sure they Crowley would have said so. By definiation his not mention it means it wouldn't work.
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    libra113

    [39]Mar 14, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible.

    As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [40]Mar 14, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible.

    As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.





    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache



    And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
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