What happend to Colts gun?

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    libra113

    [41]Mar 14, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible.

    As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.




    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache


    And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place.

    Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.
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    camperdinisan

    [42]Mar 15, 2011
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    On a side note, Lucifer was probably talking about himself, his brothers and god as the things the colt can't kill.

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    dpebbleson

    [43]Mar 15, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible.

    As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.



    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache

    And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place.

    Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.


    I think Deaths' scythe could be used to kill Lucifer. Another thing is to actually get near Lucifer and chop his head off. I even think that he can be killed with that angel-killing knife, since Gabriel tried to stab him with it, possibly knowing it would kill him. And Gabriel is archangel and it worked on him.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [44]Mar 15, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible.

    As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.



    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache

    And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place.

    Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.




    Then why did he say "ow" and when he got up he angrily hit Dean in to tree so it must hurt a lot to leave a mark on his forhead
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    gatoraderising

    [45]Mar 15, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak


    Killed of all who?


    Anyone who was there trying to kill him with Death's scyth. Besides Sam of course
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    gatoraderising

    [46]Mar 15, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible.

    As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.



    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache

    And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place.

    Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.


    Maybe Death's syth could kill Lucifer. Crowley did say it kills angels,demons and a rumor that it kills Death too. If it did there's no way Lucifer would let someone get close to use it on him. Lucifer probly knows everything that can kill him.

    As for Crowley i wonder how he did bring Sam and Grandpa back. YED said at the end of season 2 that a demon just can't bring people back they need a deal to right.
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    libra113

    [47]Mar 15, 2011
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    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible.

    As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.


    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache

    And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place.

    Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.


    I think Deaths' scythe could be used to kill Lucifer. Another thing is to actually get near Lucifer and chop his head off. I even think that he can be killed with that angel-killing knife, since Gabriel tried to stab him with it, possibly knowing it would kill him. And Gabriel is archangel and it worked on him.
    Maybe but I also get the sense that Lucifer runs by a whole set of rules all his own. Also, I'm not convience Crowley WOULD know since the seemed to think the Colt would work and it didn't.

    If we're relying on Crowley here this is a guy who THOUGHT he Colt would work and it didn't. So if he showed up and said "Hey guys try this instead" personally I would be a bit leery. Add to that the whole getting close enough to use it (if it even stood a chance Lucifer wouldn't let anyone with it get anywhere near him) AND the fact that it was in Crowley's best intrest to get Sam into the cage so he could raise him up later and make him find Alphas for it and it all adds up perfectly.

    As for the angel killing blade (or I guess archangel killing blade in Lucifer's case), it has the same issues. The only one with a percentage in telling Sam and Dean it would work (much less supplying them with one) would be Gabrial and since he didn't that would imply either a level of uncertainty if it would work or not (trying was a suicide mission and he wasn't willing to let anyone else do it) or some other thing (perhaps they only kill archangels if used by an archangel).

    There's also every possibly (totally overlooked by everyone as far as I know) that Lucifer's time in the cage made him something beyong just an archangel (like Hell makes people into demons) meaning he plays by his own set of rules. It's also possible that Lucifer AND Micheal are just so powerful that things that work on other archangels (or angels) don't nessicarily apply to them (in much the same way that Yellow Eyes was so powerful certain demon things, like holy water, didn't effect him).
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [48]Mar 15, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible.

    As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.


    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache

    And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place.

    Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.



    Then why did he say "ow" and when he got up he angrily hit Dean in to tree so it must hurt a lot to leave a mark on his forhead
    It's been awhile since I've seen that scene but I seem to recall his tone was a bit more jokey than someone in any real pain and the wound did heal pretty much instantly.

    I doubt it would have made any diffrence but Crowley did tell them to empty it into Lucifer's head and Dean only fired a single shot.

    The part that's REALLY intresting is that Crowley seemed to think it would work, which implies that Lucifer's true strengths and weaknesses were a bit of mystery to all but a few and they had their own reasons to keep that information to themselves and not help bring him down.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [49]Mar 15, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible.

    As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.


    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache

    And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place.

    Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.


    Maybe Death's syth could kill Lucifer. Crowley did say it kills angels,demons and a rumor that it kills Death too. If it did there's no way Lucifer would let someone get close to use it on him. Lucifer probly knows everything that can kill him.

    As for Crowley i wonder how he did bring Sam and Grandpa back. YED said at the end of season 2 that a demon just can't bring people back they need a deal to right.
    Yes, that's true AND someone had to be behind Crowley's sudden rise to King of Hell.

    I always felt there had to be a greater power behind Crowley and perhaps THEY raised Sam and gramps and he just took credit to hide their exsistance.

    The question then is: Who?
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [50]Mar 15, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them. I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible. As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.
    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place. Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.
    Maybe Death's syth could kill Lucifer. Crowley did say it kills angels,demons and a rumor that it kills Death too. If it did there's no way Lucifer would let someone get close to use it on him. Lucifer probly knows everything that can kill him. As for Crowley i wonder how he did bring Sam and Grandpa back. YED said at the end of season 2 that a demon just can't bring people back they need a deal to right.


    Demons in the upper hierarchy can resurrect people ,Azazel was in the middle not the top so that is why he couldn't do it himself.


    I do however agree Crowley was too powerful for someone having died 300 years ago. I was exepecting him to be ancient and primeval to be that potent

    Edited on 03/15/2011 9:55am
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    basenji529

    [51]Mar 15, 2011
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    camperdinisan wrote:


    On a side note, Lucifer was probably talking about himself, his brothers and god as the things the colt can't kill.



    Should the four archangels be a case of Four Is Death then?

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    libra113

    [52]Mar 15, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them. I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible. As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.
    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place. Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.
    Maybe Death's syth could kill Lucifer. Crowley did say it kills angels,demons and a rumor that it kills Death too. If it did there's no way Lucifer would let someone get close to use it on him. Lucifer probly knows everything that can kill him. As for Crowley i wonder how he did bring Sam and Grandpa back. YED said at the end of season 2 that a demon just can't bring people back they need a deal to right.


    Demons in the upper hierarchy can resurrect people ,Azazel was in the middle not the top so that is why he couldn't do it himself.


    I do however agree Crowley was too powerful for someone having died 300 years ago. I was exepecting him to be ancient and primeval to be that potent

    That was becasue he had become king of Hell. Apprently the status comes with power.
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  • Avatar of gatoraderising

    gatoraderising

    [53]Mar 17, 2011
    • member since: 02/23/11
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 431
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them. I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible. As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.
    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place. Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.
    Maybe Death's syth could kill Lucifer. Crowley did say it kills angels,demons and a rumor that it kills Death too. If it did there's no way Lucifer would let someone get close to use it on him. Lucifer probly knows everything that can kill him. As for Crowley i wonder how he did bring Sam and Grandpa back. YED said at the end of season 2 that a demon just can't bring people back they need a deal to right.


    Demons in the upper hierarchy can resurrect people ,Azazel was in the middle not the top so that is why he couldn't do it himself.


    I do however agree Crowley was too powerful for someone having died 300 years ago. I was exepecting him to be ancient and primeval to be that potent



    I'm pretty sure Azazel was the "top dog" in hell when he was alive. If not then he was second to Lilith. Only crossroad demons can resurrect people and they can only do that when someone makes a deal with them, remember the "red tape" Azazel was talking about.
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  • Avatar of gatoraderising

    gatoraderising

    [54]Mar 17, 2011
    • member since: 02/23/11
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 431
    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible.

    As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.


    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache

    And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place.

    Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.


    I think Deaths' scythe could be used to kill Lucifer. Another thing is to actually get near Lucifer and chop his head off. I even think that he can be killed with that angel-killing knife, since Gabriel tried to stab him with it, possibly knowing it would kill him. And Gabriel is archangel and it worked on him.
    Maybe but I also get the sense that Lucifer runs by a whole set of rules all his own. Also, I'm not convience Crowley WOULD know since the seemed to think the Colt would work and it didn't.

    If we're relying on Crowley here this is a guy who THOUGHT he Colt would work and it didn't. So if he showed up and said "Hey guys try this instead" personally I would be a bit leery. Add to that the whole getting close enough to use it (if it even stood a chance Lucifer wouldn't let anyone with it get anywhere near him) AND the fact that it was in Crowley's best intrest to get Sam into the cage so he could raise him up later and make him find Alphas for it and it all adds up perfectly.

    As for the angel killing blade (or I guess archangel killing blade in Lucifer's case), it has the same issues. The only one with a percentage in telling Sam and Dean it would work (much less supplying them with one) would be Gabrial and since he didn't that would imply either a level of uncertainty if it would work or not (trying was a suicide mission and he wasn't willing to let anyone else do it) or some other thing (perhaps they only kill archangels if used by an archangel).

    There's also every possibly (totally overlooked by everyone as far as I know) that Lucifer's time in the cage made him something beyong just an archangel (like Hell makes people into demons) meaning he plays by his own set of rules. It's also possible that Lucifer AND Micheal are just so powerful that things that work on other archangels (or angels) don't nessicarily apply to them (in much the same way that Yellow Eyes was so powerful certain demon things, like holy water, didn't effect him).


    The cage in Hell could have changed Lucifer in some way. Most likely it had no effect on him. I don't know if Hell its self makes people turn into demons, or if its more of demons in Hell twisting peoples souls turniing them into demons.
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  • Avatar of RachelleMcAdams

    RachelleMcAdams

    [55]Mar 17, 2011
    • member since: 05/11/10
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 549
    gatoraderising wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them. I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible. As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.
    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place. Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.
    Maybe Death's syth could kill Lucifer. Crowley did say it kills angels,demons and a rumor that it kills Death too. If it did there's no way Lucifer would let someone get close to use it on him. Lucifer probly knows everything that can kill him. As for Crowley i wonder how he did bring Sam and Grandpa back. YED said at the end of season 2 that a demon just can't bring people back they need a deal to right.


    Demons in the upper hierarchy can resurrect people ,Azazel was in the middle not the top so that is why he couldn't do it himself.


    I do however agree Crowley was too powerful for someone having died 300 years ago. I was exepecting him to be ancient and primeval to be that potent



    I'm pretty sure Azazel was the "top dog" in hell when he was alive. If not then he was second to Lilith. Only crossroad demons can resurrect people and they can only do that when someone makes a deal with them, remember the "red tape" Azazel was talking about.








    Nope Alastair was the big shot in hell when he was alive, he was the chief torturer and executioner and he was on the same par as Lillith
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  • Avatar of vancenovells

    vancenovells

    [56]Mar 17, 2011
    • member since: 03/09/11
    • level: 1
    • rank: Weatherman
    • posts: 7

    You people are taking all the rules, quotes and whatnot way too serious. Kripke himself said in an interview that he thinks you shouldn't adhere your mythology so strcitly if it gets in the way of a good story (this was on the season 3 DVD I believe). When talking about a show that's been running for over 5 years now you need to keep the writers perspective in mind. Supernatural is pretty consistent compared to X-Files or Doctor Who but it ocassionally bends its own rules.


    So, the Colt. There are about five things in creation it can't kill. Yeah maybe four, or maybe six. Lucifer was making a point, not doing statistics. He's powerful but not all-knowing so while we drive ourselves nuts trying to count the entities it can kill the show can easily adjust its potency to fit the story. This we know: it is a powerful weapon that can kill a lot of things (I hope the coming Western episodes explains exactly how it became so powerful).


    Crowley wanted Lucifer dead cause at the time the alternative was not in his best interests. I thought this was an excellent storyline, Crowley acted out of pure self-interest and used the boys for his purposes. In my opinion it was more credible than Ruby saying she still had a human touch as he remained true to demon nature while still allying him with the good guys. Crowley wanting Sam in the cage so he could resurrect him later is far-fetched, if only for the fact that at the time the Crowley story was written Supernatural was still supposed to end that season. The unexpected outcome of both Michael and Lucifer getting dumped in the cage gave Crowley an opportunity and he seized it.


    I hope you see my point and we can proceed discussing the interesting parts of the story instead of getting bogged down in details

    Edited on 03/17/2011 10:21am
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [57]Mar 17, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    gatoraderising wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:

    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them. I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible. As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.
    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place. Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.
    Maybe Death's syth could kill Lucifer. Crowley did say it kills angels,demons and a rumor that it kills Death too. If it did there's no way Lucifer would let someone get close to use it on him. Lucifer probly knows everything that can kill him. As for Crowley i wonder how he did bring Sam and Grandpa back. YED said at the end of season 2 that a demon just can't bring people back they need a deal to right.


    Demons in the upper hierarchy can resurrect people ,Azazel was in the middle not the top so that is why he couldn't do it himself.


    I do however agree Crowley was too powerful for someone having died 300 years ago. I was exepecting him to be ancient and primeval to be that potent



    I'm pretty sure Azazel was the "top dog" in hell when he was alive. If not then he was second to Lilith. Only crossroad demons can resurrect people and they can only do that when someone makes a deal with them, remember the "red tape" Azazel was talking about.
    Yeah but then Azazel himself possessed a Reaper and stopped Dean from dying. Not exactly bringing him back but close.
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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [58]Mar 17, 2011
    • member since: 10/04/05
    • level: 27
    • rank: Shark Jumper
    • posts: 24,388
    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them.

    I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible.

    As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.


    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache

    And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place.

    Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.


    I think Deaths' scythe could be used to kill Lucifer. Another thing is to actually get near Lucifer and chop his head off. I even think that he can be killed with that angel-killing knife, since Gabriel tried to stab him with it, possibly knowing it would kill him. And Gabriel is archangel and it worked on him.
    Maybe but I also get the sense that Lucifer runs by a whole set of rules all his own. Also, I'm not convience Crowley WOULD know since the seemed to think the Colt would work and it didn't.

    If we're relying on Crowley here this is a guy who THOUGHT he Colt would work and it didn't. So if he showed up and said "Hey guys try this instead" personally I would be a bit leery. Add to that the whole getting close enough to use it (if it even stood a chance Lucifer wouldn't let anyone with it get anywhere near him) AND the fact that it was in Crowley's best intrest to get Sam into the cage so he could raise him up later and make him find Alphas for it and it all adds up perfectly.

    As for the angel killing blade (or I guess archangel killing blade in Lucifer's case), it has the same issues. The only one with a percentage in telling Sam and Dean it would work (much less supplying them with one) would be Gabrial and since he didn't that would imply either a level of uncertainty if it would work or not (trying was a suicide mission and he wasn't willing to let anyone else do it) or some other thing (perhaps they only kill archangels if used by an archangel).

    There's also every possibly (totally overlooked by everyone as far as I know) that Lucifer's time in the cage made him something beyong just an archangel (like Hell makes people into demons) meaning he plays by his own set of rules. It's also possible that Lucifer AND Micheal are just so powerful that things that work on other archangels (or angels) don't nessicarily apply to them (in much the same way that Yellow Eyes was so powerful certain demon things, like holy water, didn't effect him).


    The cage in Hell could have changed Lucifer in some way. Most likely it had no effect on him. I don't know if Hell its self makes people turn into demons, or if its more of demons in Hell twisting peoples souls turniing them into demons.
    Well Lucifer made Lilith the first demon but surely Lilith, all by herself, couldn't have converted the ENTIRE first generation of demons. I would think just being in Hell would do things that would twist a person's mind and soul.

    I seem to recall (unless it was a diffrent show entirely)it being said that Hell burns away your humanity that would seen to imply that just being there effects thoes who are there above and beyond whatever the inhabitants themselves might do.
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  • Avatar of RachelleMcAdams

    RachelleMcAdams

    [59]Mar 17, 2011
    • member since: 05/11/10
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 549

    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    dpebbleson wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    Didnt Balthazar steal the weapons from heaven after Michael went into the cage with Lucifer and heaven was in disarray? When Cas did show doubt about the intentions of his superiors he did help Dean escape from the waiting room and teleported Dean to Chucks house. After that he got blown apart by Raphael. So i dont think he would have the time to steal the weapons . As far as we know holy oil itself doesnt kill Archangels. Proof of that is when Cas threw a Molotov of holy oil at Michael. If angels step out of the circle of holy fire that kills them. I'm sure if Death wanted has weapon back he could have gotten it at anytime. Just like his ring he waited untill it was returned to him. For them not using it on Lucifer who knows why they didnt. Maybe they didnt use it on him because u have to get really close to the target to use it. If they failed im sure lucifer would have killed all of them besides Sam of course. They tried once to kill Lucy i doubt he would have let it go a second time, so to speak
    Yeah, you have to remember the timeline. Cas was following orders up until a point and by that time he was barred acess to Heaven so his stealing weapons would have been impossible. As for Death's scyth I have my doubts but yeah you would have to get REALLY close and if it had a chance of working Lucifer wouldn't let anyone holding it anywhere near him. The only reason Dean got a shot off with the Colt was (likely) becasue Lucifer KNEW it wouldn't work.
    Actually Sam distracted Lucifer so that Dean could come close and shoot him even if the colt doesn't kill Lucifer it does give him a massive headache And Death scythe should work on Lucifer he is angel an archangel but stil. Death is as powerful or even more powerful than God so a weapon powerful to kill him and demons,horsemen should be able to kill Lucifer
    Well, yeah Sam DID distract him but Dean also make some kind of remark before actually shooting him which SHOULD have given Lucifer plenty of time to react but he didn't. I doubt a bit of pain is much compaired to all that time in the cage AND being in a vessle that was falling apart and given his comedic reaction I'm not sure it hurt all that much in the first place. Again, I'm not sure power has that much to do with it so much as certain creatures have certain weakenssess to certain things. Does level of power explain why the only way to kill a vampire is slice it's head off? In any case, if Crowley brought Sam back without his soul to use him for his plans then he would WANT Sam to jump into the cage in the first place and IF the syth DID work that wouldn't have happened so it would have been foolish for Crowley to suggest it. He was planning ahead.
    I think Deaths' scythe could be used to kill Lucifer. Another thing is to actually get near Lucifer and chop his head off. I even think that he can be killed with that angel-killing knife, since Gabriel tried to stab him with it, possibly knowing it would kill him. And Gabriel is archangel and it worked on him.
    Maybe but I also get the sense that Lucifer runs by a whole set of rules all his own. Also, I'm not convience Crowley WOULD know since the seemed to think the Colt would work and it didn't. If we're relying on Crowley here this is a guy who THOUGHT he Colt would work and it didn't. So if he showed up and said "Hey guys try this instead" personally I would be a bit leery. Add to that the whole getting close enough to use it (if it even stood a chance Lucifer wouldn't let anyone with it get anywhere near him) AND the fact that it was in Crowley's best intrest to get Sam into the cage so he could raise him up later and make him find Alphas for it and it all adds up perfectly. As for the angel killing blade (or I guess archangel killing blade in Lucifer's case), it has the same issues. The only one with a percentage in telling Sam and Dean it would work (much less supplying them with one) would be Gabrial and since he didn't that would imply either a level of uncertainty if it would work or not (trying was a suicide mission and he wasn't willing to let anyone else do it) or some other thing (perhaps they only kill archangels if used by an archangel). There's also every possibly (totally overlooked by everyone as far as I know) that Lucifer's time in the cage made him something beyong just an archangel (like Hell makes people into demons) meaning he plays by his own set of rules. It's also possible that Lucifer AND Micheal are just so powerful that things that work on other archangels (or angels) don't nessicarily apply to them (in much the same way that Yellow Eyes was so powerful certain demon things, like holy water, didn't effect him).
    The cage in Hell could have changed Lucifer in some way. Most likely it had no effect on him. I don't know if Hell its self makes people turn into demons, or if its more of demons in Hell twisting peoples souls turniing them into demons.
    Well Lucifer made Lilith the first demon but surely Lilith, all by herself, couldn't have converted the ENTIRE first generation of demons. I would think just being in Hell would do things that would twist a person's mind and soul. I seem to recall (unless it was a diffrent show entirely)it being said that Hell burns away your humanity that would seen to imply that just being there effects thoes who are there above and beyond whatever the inhabitants themselves might do.
    Yeah which is why Lucifer had to had twisted other humans because Lillith was imprisoned in hell along with Lucifer so she couldn't have made deals with humans

    Edited on 03/17/2011 2:57pm
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  • Avatar of basenji529

    basenji529

    [60]Mar 17, 2011
    • member since: 03/12/09
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well Lucifer made Lilith the first demon but surely Lilith, all by herself, couldn't have converted the ENTIRE first generation of demons. I would think just being in Hell would do things that would twist a person's mind and soul. I seem to recall (unless it was a diffrent show entirely)it being said that Hell burns away your humanity that would seen to imply that just being there effects thoes who are there above and beyond whatever the inhabitants themselves might do.


    As I understand it, Hell is a completely self-sustaining torture device. Everyone in Hell is tortured and (Hell being Hell) compelled to torture others. Of course, souls have free will, but, given a rationale, we can all turn into torturers, and the history of the world (Puritans expelled from England and they start killing Indians; Hutus killing the Tutsis who were privileged under French rule; Holocaust survivors settling Israel and expelling Palestinians; etc.) has shown that victims of oppression can become quite the oppressors themselves. Hell, Japan's idea of a trans-Pacific empire began when the British were in Japan, and Nazi ideology tried to present Jews as "invaders" like whites in the Americas and Australia. On an individual level, the United States also took Japanese people from Latin America and put them in internment camps (on Indian reservations; oh, the anvils are everywhere). One of theseindividuals was a Peruvian boy named Alberto Fujimori.


    Knowing that, we learn something about human nature; we repay evil with evil, but not necessarily the original creditor. And, thanks to Milgram's experiments, we know that we all have a potential for evil, and all we need is some authority figure's blessing. So it really only takes one torturer to begin it.


    Hell's actually the opposite of Purgatory, where people work for something mutually constructive; everything in Hell is inherently internecine.

    Edited on 03/17/2011 3:34pm
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