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Would Sam have to say yes again????

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    gatoraderising

    [1]Feb 23, 2011
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    If lucifer gets out of hell again some how could he just take over sam again. Its something i've been thinking about. I know angels need the vessel to say yes but do they need it everytime? Ralph went in and out of his? And Sam did say yes.

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    smegmag

    [2]Feb 23, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:


    If lucifer gets out of hell again some how could he just take over sam again. Its something i've been thinking about. I know angels need the vessel to say yes but do they need it everytime? Ralph went in and out of his? And Sam did say yes.


    Good question, I kinda think yes is yes. The experience is apparently quite traumatizing (except for Michael who had quite the gentle touch with John). So nobody having experienced it, would sign up for a second tour. In Rhaph's case it didn't appear his vessel had the ability to say yay or nay after the first go around, and poor Jimmy only agreed to save his child. I'm hoping they dont let him out, that Cas somehow wins the war. Sam has enough problems. On the otherhand, if the wall comes down Sam could be a babbling idiot ( like Rhaph's vessel Donnie) and no further acquiesence would be required. So many ways for bad things to happen, so many ways,

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    gatoraderising

    [3]Feb 23, 2011
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    I only thought about this because Dean did say yes to Michael but Michael never did or never could take Dean up on the offer. I think all Archangels can have a gentle touch like Michael but they dont really care about the vessel after they take them for a ride lol.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [4]Feb 23, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    I only thought about this because Dean did say yes to Michael but Michael never did or never could take Dean up on the offer. I think all Archangels can have a gentle touch like Michael but they dont really care about the vessel after they take them for a ride lol.


    The first thing Lucifer would do if he got out of hell would jump in Sam body so once a vessel says yes there is no going back
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    taxcat11

    [5]Feb 23, 2011
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    There is no point in asking, if one cannot refuse. I think you are supposed to ask for every different occasion you make use of the vessel. Also I imagine the vessel can request you vacate and expect you to honour their wish. Otherwise you are no better than demons who just take as they please and stay as long as they like. So if Raphael didn't ask, he is breaking the rules and showing his contempt for the rights of his vessel. Also using the vessel in such a way as to needlessly damage it, is also breaking the rules. Michael proved it was possible for an archangel to do no harm, Raphael just didn't care to go to the effort required. Using unfair coercion also would violate the rules, such as threatening family members for not cooperating. This is the only way that distinguishes demon possession from angelic, the respect show to the vessel.

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    taxcat11

    [6]Feb 23, 2011
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    To answer your question - I think Lucifer would ask, not because he ever needed too - just because it keeps his fiction that he is not the same thing as a demon alive. Angels ask, therefore Lucifer insisting on his status as an angel will ask.
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    gatoraderising

    [7]Feb 24, 2011
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    I don't think at this point Lucifer would ask again. Sam did say yes already and i dont see Lucifer asking just to ask again. I say this for two reason. 1) When he gets out he is going to be pissed at Sam and i dont think he cares about trying to be nice to Sam anymore. 2) He's going to want to get into his vessel as fast as he can if lets say some how he gets out of the cage and Michael does not. Then there would be no other angel that can stop him.
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    basenji529

    [8]Feb 24, 2011
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    taxcat11 wrote:
    To answer your question - I think Lucifer would ask, not because he ever needed too - just because it keeps his fiction that he is not the same thing as a demon alive. Angels ask, therefore Lucifer insisting on his status as an angel will ask.


    Perhaps, but angels are also single-minded about getting what they want, and, as we saw, even the "good" (i.e., non-Lucifer) angels are willing to do whatever to get what they want. The whole point of Sam and Dean's actions was to keep the two sides from destroying the planet.

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    libra113

    [9]Feb 24, 2011
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    Well, I suspected at one point that the whole reason Sam came back without a soul was to keep the lock open (so to speak) so that, later, Lucifer could make a move.

    Other than that I suspect he would have to say yes again, but that if he was a drooling mess then it's like a empty vessle and the door is open.

    I also suspect that the only reason Micheal was so gentel with John was becasue if he wasn't he would have wrecked the entire course of events and risked the whole plan.
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    taxcat11

    [10]Feb 25, 2011
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    Well, Michael did promise Dean he wouldn't be left a vegetable like Raphael's vessel. But even if Michael was just being very careful, it shows it can be done. An angel does not have to be destructive when using a vessel and he can repair any damage done if he wishes too.
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    libra113

    [11]Feb 25, 2011
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    taxcat11 wrote:
    Well, Michael did promise Dean he wouldn't be left a vegetable like Raphael's vessel. But even if Michael was just being very careful, it shows it can be done. An angel does not have to be destructive when using a vessel and he can repair any damage done if he wishes too.
    Well yeah they CAN clearly go easily but often don't bother. Still, there seems to be another element, sure they can heal physical damage but remember Jimmy said it was like being chained to a comet and remember that Raph's original vessle wasn't PHYSICALLY harmed so much as mentally (or perhaps spiritually) harmed.

    Also, consider this as a possibilty: What if to go easy on a vessel means they have to limit the use of their power? Meaning that IF they do go easy then their power is severally limited after all I don't recall seeing Micheal (a very powerful archangel) using much power while he was inside John and John was fine.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [13]Feb 26, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, I suspected at one point that the whole reason Sam came back without a soul was to keep the lock open (so to speak) so that, later, Lucifer could make a move.

    Other than that I suspect he would have to say yes again, but that if he was a drooling mess then it's like a empty vessle and the door is open.

    I also suspect that the only reason Micheal was so gentel with John was becasue if he wasn't he would have wrecked the entire course of events and risked the whole plan.


    I don't think Sam would be dumb enough to say yes to the angel who made him in to a drooling mess and torment him in hell
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    libra113

    [14]Feb 26, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Well, I suspected at one point that the whole reason Sam came back without a soul was to keep the lock open (so to speak) so that, later, Lucifer could make a move.

    Other than that I suspect he would have to say yes again, but that if he was a drooling mess then it's like a empty vessle and the door is open.

    I also suspect that the only reason Micheal was so gentel with John was becasue if he wasn't he would have wrecked the entire course of events and risked the whole plan.


    I don't think Sam would be dumb enough to say yes to the angel who made him in to a drooling mess and torment him in hell
    Yeah that's what people said before and we know how that went down...
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [15]Feb 27, 2011
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    But I do think yes would forever consent an angel your body
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    Beecharm3r2

    [16]Feb 27, 2011
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    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    But I do think yes would forever consent an angel your body


    Agreed. That's the impression I got as well.

    What I think would be a cool twist is that if there's a big cosmic change so the angels could start possessing vessels without consent. Already they don't REALLY need consent, they just need to torture someone into saying 'yes'. Coercion isn't really giving consent. Its survival.

    I dunno, I think it'd be interesting to see angels hopping around in people and seeing how evil they can get and how some would be conflicted and some would just want to have fun... but also I'd find it a good excuse to have Gabriel come back to the show and clean house. (Sorry but I love Gabriel, any excuse to bring him back).
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [17]Feb 27, 2011
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    Beecharm3r2 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    But I do think yes would forever consent an angel your body


    Agreed. That's the impression I got as well.

    What I think would be a cool twist is that if there's a big cosmic change so the angels could start possessing vessels without consent. Already they don't REALLY need consent, they just need to torture someone into saying 'yes'. Coercion isn't really giving consent. Its survival.

    I dunno, I think it'd be interesting to see angels hopping around in people and seeing how evil they can get and how some would be conflicted and some would just want to have fun... but also I'd find it a good excuse to have Gabriel come back to the show and clean house. (Sorry but I love Gabriel, any excuse to bring him back).


    Actually Lucifer didn't force Sam in to anything he just manipulated him in simple words saying it's okay I'm not mind and be happy to involve in wrestling merch inside your noggin or something like that when Sam was willing back down
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    taxcat11

    [18]Feb 27, 2011
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    It might explain why Raphael used his vessel so hard, so the poor guy couldn't refuse consent. Of course that implies that consent is required each time. And if you remember Castiel did not jump at the chance to change from Claire back to Jimmy when logically Jimmy would be the more useful than Claire. A child would constantly be questioned & challenged where an adult would not be. Jimmy had to beg almost for Castiel to leave Claire for him. Castiel seemed to think that Jimmy had suffered enough and it would be better for Jimmy if he were freed. I think this is how it was meant to be between angels & their vessels. The angel is suppose to care for the well being of their vessel. When an angel does not it indicates the angel bears a resemblance to Lucifer, who does treat his vessels like they were condoms.

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    RachelleMcAdams

    [19]Feb 27, 2011
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    taxcat11 wrote:

    It might explain why Raphael used his vessel so hard, so the poor guy couldn't refuse consent. Of course that implies that consent is required each time. And if you remember Castiel did not jump at the chance to change from Claire back to Jimmy when logically Jimmy would be the more useful than Claire. A child would constantly be questioned & challenged where an adult would not be. Jimmy had to beg almost for Castiel to leave Claire for him. Castiel seemed to think that Jimmy had suffered enough and it would be better for Jimmy if he were freed. I think this is how it was meant to be between angels & their vessels. The angel is suppose to care for the well being of their vessel. When an angel does not it indicates the angel bears a resemblance to Lucifer, who does treat his vessels like they were condoms.



    That is because Lucifer hated humans and could care less for their well being though he did pep talk with Sam when Sam vesseled him which strange for a angel much less archangel
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    libra113

    [20]Feb 27, 2011
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    Beecharm3r2 wrote:
    RachelleMcAdams wrote:
    But I do think yes would forever consent an angel your body


    Agreed. That's the impression I got as well.

    What I think would be a cool twist is that if there's a big cosmic change so the angels could start possessing vessels without consent. Already they don't REALLY need consent, they just need to torture someone into saying 'yes'. Coercion isn't really giving consent. Its survival.

    I dunno, I think it'd be interesting to see angels hopping around in people and seeing how evil they can get and how some would be conflicted and some would just want to have fun... but also I'd find it a good excuse to have Gabriel come back to the show and clean house. (Sorry but I love Gabriel, any excuse to bring him back).
    Well, I suspect that the rule was enacted by God to keep angels under control which is why it ALSO makes sense that they would have to say get consent over again otherwise once they worked someone over and got a yes they could come and go as they please in and out of that one person and that would defeat the purpose.
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