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Would Sam have to say yes again????

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    libra113

    [21]Feb 27, 2011
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    taxcat11 wrote:

    It might explain why Raphael used his vessel so hard, so the poor guy couldn't refuse consent. Of course that implies that consent is required each time. And if you remember Castiel did not jump at the chance to change from Claire back to Jimmy when logically Jimmy would be the more useful than Claire. A child would constantly be questioned & challenged where an adult would not be. Jimmy had to beg almost for Castiel to leave Claire for him. Castiel seemed to think that Jimmy had suffered enough and it would be better for Jimmy if he were freed. I think this is how it was meant to be between angels & their vessels. The angel is suppose to care for the well being of their vessel. When an angel does not it indicates the angel bears a resemblance to Lucifer, who does treat his vessels like they were condoms.

    Yeah, it's kind of like the G'ould and the Tokra on "Stargate SG-1". The G'ould dominate and control their hosts, never letting their minds free and using them as they see fit. Meanwhile, the Tokra blend with their hosts, share the body, only take the bodies of people who are dying (becasue they can extend their lives) and treat their hosts with respect and equaility.

    Angels are likely supposed to get permission so that they're not taking unwilling hosts and are supposed to limit the wear and tear on the bodies (unlike the demons who take whoever they want and, as they say many times on the show, 'ride their hosts hard').

    However, a lot of angels have become courrpt and bend the rules by forcing a yes from potiential hosts and doing what they please with no regard to the people they're using.
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    RachelleMcAdams

    [22]Feb 28, 2011
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    I think if Raphael were to free Micheal and Lucifer from the cage or somehow just Lucifer then I don't think Lucifer would be nice to Sam anymore and instead he use harsher methods coercion to force Sam in to consent
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    gatoraderising

    [23]Feb 28, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    taxcat11 wrote:

    It might explain why Raphael used his vessel so hard, so the poor guy couldn't refuse consent. Of course that implies that consent is required each time. And if you remember Castiel did not jump at the chance to change from Claire back to Jimmy when logically Jimmy would be the more useful than Claire. A child would constantly be questioned & challenged where an adult would not be. Jimmy had to beg almost for Castiel to leave Claire for him. Castiel seemed to think that Jimmy had suffered enough and it would be better for Jimmy if he were freed. I think this is how it was meant to be between angels & their vessels. The angel is suppose to care for the well being of their vessel. When an angel does not it indicates the angel bears a resemblance to Lucifer, who does treat his vessels like they were condoms.

    Yeah, it's kind of like the G'ould and the Tokra on "Stargate SG-1". The G'ould dominate and control their hosts, never letting their minds free and using them as they see fit. Meanwhile, the Tokra blend with their hosts, share the body, only take the bodies of people who are dying (becasue they can extend their lives) and treat their hosts with respect and equaility. Angels are likely supposed to get permission so that they're not taking unwilling hosts and are supposed to limit the wear and tear on the bodies (unlike the demons who take whoever they want and, as they say many times on the show, 'ride their hosts hard').

    However, a lot of angels have become courrpt and bend the rules by forcing a yes from potiential hosts and doing what they please with no regard to the people they're using.
    Stargate SG-1 love that show lol. Anyway the only time we ever saw an Angel trying to force a yes was when Zach was trying to get Dean to say yes to Michael. Other then that i guess we dont know how all angels get their vessels to say yes. I think they would try to be kind to them seeing how all angels dont have a endless supply of vessels.
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    libra113

    [24]Feb 28, 2011
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    Well, that's right we've only seen it once and it's likely that the others all said yes for one reason or another.

    As a "Stargate" fan I'm sure you remember cases where the Tokra took on hosts becasue they were dying or sick and there was no other way to survive (Samantha's father being a case in point), so it's possible the angels are doing the same.

    There are also still religous people in the world who would say yes to any angel they meet on principle. They could also lie to them, tell them half truths, make empty promises, etc...

    Perhaps they only resort to physical persuasion when the need is dire and they feel they're all out of options.

    I mean I can see from Zac's point of view how getting Dean to say yes was more important that adhearing to the rules or playing nice.
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    gatoraderising

    [25]Mar 1, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, that's right we've only seen it once and it's likely that the others all said yes for one reason or another.

    As a "Stargate" fan I'm sure you remember cases where the Tokra took on hosts becasue they were dying or sick and there was no other way to survive (Samantha's father being a case in point), so it's possible the angels are doing the same.

    There are also still religous people in the world who would say yes to any angel they meet on principle. They could also lie to them, tell them half truths, make empty promises, etc...

    Perhaps they only resort to physical persuasion when the need is dire and they feel they're all out of options.

    I mean I can see from Zac's point of view how getting Dean to say yes was more important that adhearing to the rules or playing nice.
    They all most likly try to get their vessels to say yes like the way Cas did. They could also bend the truth to them or make empty promises too. Then again i doubt to many people would say no if a angel asked them in the first place. I'm guessing Michael told Zac to get Dean to say yes by any means. I get the feeling that if the Angels wouldnt have gone about they way they did like jump starting the end of world or telling Dean that they did he would have said yes to Michael.
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    libra113

    [26]Mar 1, 2011
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    Well, yeah I doubt what Zac was doing is standard operating proceedger.

    They allowed the seals to be broken and Lucifer to freed counting on Dean to say yes so they could take out Lucifer and bring Heaven on Earth and when Dean wouldn't play ball they were in trouble becasue they put everything at risk and had to get a yes before it was too late.

    Most angels likely approch their vessles, as you said, the way Cas does. Of course someone who doesn't beleave in angels might be a hard sell but doubt people like that would even be able to be vessels.

    It's also possible that the less above board angels would lie or twist the truth or maybe even find finatical religous types and prey upon their extream belifs to get what they want.
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    gatoraderising

    [27]Mar 3, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, yeah I doubt what Zac was doing is standard operating proceedger.

    They allowed the seals to be broken and Lucifer to freed counting on Dean to say yes so they could take out Lucifer and bring Heaven on Earth and when Dean wouldn't play ball they were in trouble becasue they put everything at risk and had to get a yes before it was too late.

    Most angels likely approch their vessles, as you said, the way Cas does. Of course someone who doesn't beleave in angels might be a hard sell but doubt people like that would even be able to be vessels.

    It's also possible that the less above board angels would lie or twist the truth or maybe even find finatical religous types and prey upon their extream belifs to get what they want.


    Well really Dean did say yes to Michael. Michael just never got a chance to take him up on the offer. This is what made me wonder about Sam and if he would have to say yes to Lucifer again or could lucifer just hop right back in him.
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    libra113

    [28]Mar 3, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Well, yeah I doubt what Zac was doing is standard operating proceedger.

    They allowed the seals to be broken and Lucifer to freed counting on Dean to say yes so they could take out Lucifer and bring Heaven on Earth and when Dean wouldn't play ball they were in trouble becasue they put everything at risk and had to get a yes before it was too late.

    Most angels likely approch their vessles, as you said, the way Cas does. Of course someone who doesn't beleave in angels might be a hard sell but doubt people like that would even be able to be vessels.

    It's also possible that the less above board angels would lie or twist the truth or maybe even find finatical religous types and prey upon their extream belifs to get what they want.


    Well really Dean did say yes to Michael. Michael just never got a chance to take him up on the offer. This is what made me wonder about Sam and if he would have to say yes to Lucifer again or could lucifer just hop right back in him.
    Well, presumably this is some sort of protection God confured on humans and an extention of free will. Therefore I'm guessing they would have to say it every time otherwise it wouldn't be much of a safe guard against abuse.

    I also wonder if maybe it has to be a legit yes, meaning they have to mean it which calls into question if forcing a yes would count or if it would be considered a loophole of some sort.
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    dpebbleson

    [29]Mar 4, 2011
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    I'm not sure if host has to say yes again... Jimmy was running away as if he didn't have to. Then again, when he offered himself instead of his daughter, it was probably counted as yes.

    Raphael's host is also shady. He's obviously mentally incapacitated, and yet Raphael used him time and time again. I don't know if that guy could utter yes, he seems to be frozen on that chair...
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    gatoraderising

    [30]Mar 4, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Well, yeah I doubt what Zac was doing is standard operating proceedger.

    They allowed the seals to be broken and Lucifer to freed counting on Dean to say yes so they could take out Lucifer and bring Heaven on Earth and when Dean wouldn't play ball they were in trouble becasue they put everything at risk and had to get a yes before it was too late.

    Most angels likely approch their vessles, as you said, the way Cas does. Of course someone who doesn't beleave in angels might be a hard sell but doubt people like that would even be able to be vessels.

    It's also possible that the less above board angels would lie or twist the truth or maybe even find finatical religous types and prey upon their extream belifs to get what they want.


    Well really Dean did say yes to Michael. Michael just never got a chance to take him up on the offer. This is what made me wonder about Sam and if he would have to say yes to Lucifer again or could lucifer just hop right back in him.
    Well, presumably this is some sort of protection God confured on humans and an extention of free will. Therefore I'm guessing they would have to say it every time otherwise it wouldn't be much of a safe guard against abuse.

    I also wonder if maybe it has to be a legit yes, meaning they have to mean it which calls into question if forcing a yes would count or if it would be considered a loophole of some sort.


    Maybe it does has to be a legit yes by this they have to say yes and really mean it. When Dean said yes to Michael Zac looked alittle shocked and asked if he really meant it. So it looks like up until the point an angel does take u as a vessel u can change ur mind. After that who really knows. We have seen two cases where u can make a case for both points. When Cas was taken back up to heaven and Jimmy was running around trying not to get killed. When Cas did come back he didnt just hop right back in Jimmy. Then there's Raph vessel who after Raph was done wearing him the first time and was a drooling mess could probly not say yes if he wanted too.
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    libra113

    [31]Mar 4, 2011
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    Well, perhaps someone in Raph's vessle's postion (i.e. having already bee a vessel and being incapble of saying yes or no to a second hitch) is a loophole whereby they can get back inside without asking again.
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    basenji529

    [34]Mar 5, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    It's also possible that the less above board angels would lie or twist the truth or maybe even find finatical religous types and prey upon their extream belifs to get what they want.


    Satan: The feeding tube has been pulled! If the child dies and his soul returns to heaven, God will have his Keanu Reeves!
    Palpatine expy: Perhaps the child won't die in time.
    Satan: Forget it! I'm calling the attack off!
    Palpatine expy: No! Keep your army marching, my Lord. I will get that feeding tube put back in.
    Satan: How?
    Palpatine expy: I will do what we always do: Use the Republicans.

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  • Avatar of libra113

    libra113

    [35]Mar 5, 2011
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    Yes I remember that "South Park" episode fondly.
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    gatoraderising

    [36]Mar 7, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    Well, perhaps someone in Raph's vessle's postion (i.e. having already bee a vessel and being incapble of saying yes or no to a second hitch) is a loophole whereby they can get back inside without asking again.


    That makes sense. I can see why Raph would leave his vessel if he knew he could just hop back in because he's vessel is incapble of giving a answer. I always found that odd that he would leave his vessel in the first place. So far he's the only angel that has done that.
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    libra113

    [37]Mar 7, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Well, perhaps someone in Raph's vessle's postion (i.e. having already bee a vessel and being incapble of saying yes or no to a second hitch) is a loophole whereby they can get back inside without asking again.


    That makes sense. I can see why Raph would leave his vessel if he knew he could just hop back in because he's vessel is incapble of giving a answer. I always found that odd that he would leave his vessel in the first place. So far he's the only angel that has done that.
    Yeah that was a bit odd. The only thing I can figure was that he had moved on, then got wind of Cas and Dean so he went back and since he already had a convient vessle he just used it. Either that or the whole thing was a trap and he was just laying low or something.

    Then again Cas DID do that thing to call Raph back so maybe that's why he went back to the same vessle.
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    gatoraderising

    [38]Mar 8, 2011
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    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Well, perhaps someone in Raph's vessle's postion (i.e. having already bee a vessel and being incapble of saying yes or no to a second hitch) is a loophole whereby they can get back inside without asking again.


    That makes sense. I can see why Raph would leave his vessel if he knew he could just hop back in because he's vessel is incapble of giving a answer. I always found that odd that he would leave his vessel in the first place. So far he's the only angel that has done that.
    Yeah that was a bit odd. The only thing I can figure was that he had moved on, then got wind of Cas and Dean so he went back and since he already had a convient vessle he just used it. Either that or the whole thing was a trap and he was just laying low or something.

    Then again Cas DID do that thing to call Raph back so maybe that's why he went back to the same vessle.


    I wonder if that guy was Raph true vessel or if that woman he's in now is. I tell dont know why he would move on from him in the first place. Really theres no reason to leave a vessel after they say yes.
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    basenji529

    [39]Mar 8, 2011
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    I'm not sure if the "true vessel" thing applies to everyone or just Michael and Lucifer (and presumably Cas). Supposedly being a true vessel is a Winchester family trait.

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    libra113

    [40]Mar 8, 2011
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    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    gatoraderising wrote:
    libra113 wrote:
    Well, perhaps someone in Raph's vessle's postion (i.e. having already bee a vessel and being incapble of saying yes or no to a second hitch) is a loophole whereby they can get back inside without asking again.


    That makes sense. I can see why Raph would leave his vessel if he knew he could just hop back in because he's vessel is incapble of giving a answer. I always found that odd that he would leave his vessel in the first place. So far he's the only angel that has done that.
    Yeah that was a bit odd. The only thing I can figure was that he had moved on, then got wind of Cas and Dean so he went back and since he already had a convient vessle he just used it. Either that or the whole thing was a trap and he was just laying low or something.

    Then again Cas DID do that thing to call Raph back so maybe that's why he went back to the same vessle.


    I wonder if that guy was Raph true vessel or if that woman he's in now is. I tell dont know why he would move on from him in the first place. Really theres no reason to leave a vessel after they say yes.
    Well, I saw that episode today on DVD and there's no real reason for him to have left that first vessle (unless he was trying to lure Cas into a trap of some sort and got trapped himself).

    Of course now he had to change because Balthazar destroyed his original vessle (turned it to salt and shattered it).
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