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Teen Wolf S03E08: "Visionary"

A lot of people don't know this, but on the same morning the Founding Fathers wrote up the U.S. Constitution, they turned it over and scribbled onto the back of it a whole set of rules for supernatural TV series to follow. (If you're wondering how the Founding Fathers anticipated the existence of television 170 years ahead of time, take it up with a time-traveling witch named Sheila. Sheila is not my problem.) Among the legally mandated rules set forth for supernatural dramas? There must be shirtless hunks. There must be morally questionable metaphors about humanity played out via monster murder. Parental neglect should border on illegal. Characters must occasionally enter creepy locales wondering aloud "What is this place?" Finally, and perhaps most important of all, there MUST be flashback episodes. So now, three seasons into what is amounting to the most perfect television show in recent memory, Teen Wolf unveiled its very own flashback episode, "Visionary"! Somewhere the angel of Benjamin Franklin just got his wings.

Here's the thing. Full disclosure: I don't really like flashback episodes. Sorry. It's for the same basic reason I hate prequels: If the the backstory wasn't compelling enough to be told first, then we don't need to actually see it. Infer, imply, allude: That's enough. Flashback episodes are usually just stakes-free, fan service information dumps that make no logical sense. Like, characters were walking around with these crucial memories or information the entire time and they're only bringing it up NOW? I mean, sure, "Visionary" showed us adorable Muppet Baby versions of characters we love, but for the most part I was antsy for something interesting to happen in the present tense. Also, for an episode designed to answer some major burning questions, it was still so confusing? Several scenes I had to watch multiple times and I still had trouble understanding anything (which you'll see in a second when I struggle to reiterate what I learned). Which would be fine, because as I've said before, confusion is a very underrated and potentially powerful emotion to evoke in an audience. However, I'd rather be confused while thrilled instead of confused while bored. You know? Personal preference! Also: "Visionary" had no Isaac. How dare you, "Visionary"?

All that being said, we're still talking about the same characters, actors, writer, and director of the show we all adore every week, so it would be impossible to not enjoy at least some aspects of this hourlong Teen Wolf bonus feature. Let's talk about it! (And for the love of Zeus, please help me understand this episode in the comments, thanks in advance!)

"Visionary" began with imagery straight out of the pilot: A handsome young teen dashing through some improbably foggy woods to escape armed hunters! But it wasn't Scott doing the dashing it was a teenage DEREK doing the dashing. And dashingly. (P.S. Just a warning we are all going to jail after this episode.)

After another random werewolf teen ran into Young Derek and got momentarily starstruck (the Hales were a famous family apparently, like the Kardashians but less monstrous *rimshot* *sad trombone*), he was immediately murdered by an approaching hunter. But just as another arrow was about to take out Young Derek, Young Peter Hale caught it and led Young Derek away! Cool uncle stuff. (It was pretty neat to see Young Peter Hale again. We hadn't seen him since Season 2 when he was a ghost who made out with Lydia before forcing her to resurrect his dead body that used to transform into a CGI cartoon and tear up Blockbuster Videos.)

It probably won't surprise you that the Argents were at the fore of this pack of hunters. The first confusing thing about this was, didn't Chris Argent and his family not move to Beacon Hills until the pilot episode? Also, this episode bent over backwards to keep the aging process of werewolves a secret, more than once suggesting that werewolves age super slowly and keep their youthful good looks for a long time. So that means that however far back we'd flashed to see the Hales as teenage boys, add tons more years to that. But then why did none of the humans seem to have aged at all since then?

So uh, yeah. Were the Argents supernatural also? They hadn't aged at all! What I'm trying to say is, right off the bat this episode was making my head woozy.

And this was BEFORE we learned the flashbacks would be told by multiple untrustworthy narrators. This first vignette was courtesy of Cora, who was attempting to explain to Stiles why Derek had gone missing suddenly. Because when you're being hunted you should regroup and heal in a truly creepy hiding place of some kind, so that's probably what he was doing at the moment.

But then Peter Hale walked down the spiral staircase and grabbed the storytelling baton. For the rest of the episode his job was to explain, I guess, why Derek was such a sensitive soul.

Meanwhile at the world's most understaffed assisted living facility, Gerard decided to cackle out the story of how THE DEMON WOLF came to be, not to mention shed some light on how druids related to werewolves. 

But in exchange for these crucial deets, he needed a favor from Scott. Yup, you guessed it: Pain suckage.

Uh oh, Scott. Don't be suckin' up everybody's poison now. Very worried about this, you guys.

So anyway, the rest of the episode switched off narrators, but I'll try to go in order of what we learned.

First and most importantly, 15-year-old Derek was SMOOTH AS HELL. Much of his story related to how he fell in love with a cello-playing dreamgirl at school, and how she was able to get past his cocky jock demeanor to reveal his more sensitive side. 

Like, this scene was pretty cute: The girl wouldn't tell Young Derek her name unless he played an instrument, any instrument, properly.

These children were falling instantly in love, pretty much. Next thing we knew they were making out in a creepy old barn. But whoops, they were interrupted by a gathering of the wolf packs!

You see, before there was a pack of Alphas, each of those mean jerks had packs of his or her own. Ennis, Kali, THE DEMON WOLF, they all had packs. Heck, back when he was a normal Alpha, THE DEMON WOLF seemed like a pretty good guy even.

The reason they'd all gathered here was because the kid that the hunters had killed in the cold open was one of Ennis' betas and he wanted all the packs to team up and get revenge. I think? Yeah, I think that's what was happening.

This part broke my heart. We were told that among all the packs in all the world, one Alpha was most respected: Talia Hale, Derek's mother. Her main thing was she was a shapeshifter, a rare ability among a race of shapeshifters, apparently. The reason this part broke my heart was that Teen Wolf did what I'd hoped Teen Wolf would never, ever do: It featured a werewolf that looked like a real, live wolf. So incredibly disappointing. Everybody knows that the werewolves on The Vampire Diaries and True Blood are so terrible and weak and lame, so I'd taken for granted that Teen Wolf knew better since werewolves were its main thing. Live dogs are just NOT fearsome or awe-inspiring in any way. Give me a fake-looking CGI monster or waxed hunk in muttonchops: EITHER is better than a wimpy looking wolf. 

So here I am, informing you with a heavy heart that Talia Hale's big entrance seemed like basically just a tired dog loping across a meadow looking for Kibble. 

Anyway, Derek's mom Talia arrived and seemed super earthy and serene and wise and all that and-- Dang, sorry, I'm still all mad about the live wolf. Why did you do that, Teen Wolf

As much as everyone tried to calm him down, Ennis was like "No way, I want revenge and I also want to scrape a spiral into corrugated metal, watch me go, watch me go." Ennis was in a weird mood, basically.

Here was Sheriff Stilinski in a deputy uniform trying to convince an angry giant that he had no right to see the dead, bifurcated body of his young teenage henchman.

Oh, and look at what Young Derek did to his ladyfriend:

This is why we are all going to jail. These children were being VERY sexy with each other. It's amazing that Young Derek grew up to be so awkward and non-sensual later on because as a teen he was sensual as EFFFFF.

At this point Young Derek started stressing that even though he was 15 (or whatever), he was staring down the barrel of mortality and his girlfriend of a few days would eventually die of old age before him or-- I'm really not sure. Find out that he was a werewolf? Was there anybody in this town that would've been surprised to learn that werewolves exist and are hella sensual? Exactly. But Peter Hale still decided that Young Derek should somehow turn the girl into a werewolf against her will so that she would stay young longer I guess? 

Obviously turning Young Derek's girlfriend into a werewolf against her will was a terrible plan and didn't make tons of sense to me, but who am I to question the logic of teenage monsters? 

So then the episode started trying to explain how druids factor into werewolf lore. First of all, the discovery of this blood-soaked basement tree confirmed that druids were definitely operating in Beacon Hills and that they were total weirdos.

But at this point Gerard decided to bust out his history books:

It turned out the druids and werewolves had been besties ever since Greek mythological times! According to myth (and therefore fact) werewolves happened when a dude named Lycan tried to feed Zeus nachos topped with chunks of human being and Zeus was like, "No thanks, dude."

So Zeus turned Lycan and his family into wolves! Because, as I mentioned earlier, wolves are sucky, unscary creatures. Wolfmen are awesome, but wolves, no me gusta. Zeus and I were in agreement on this. Wolves are the worst.

So then the wolves became besties with some local druids who taught them how to shift back and forth into humans, thus making the druids paranormal wingmen to werewolves. And THAT is what the veterinarian and his sister were: Druidic emissaries to werewolves, or, I guess, assistants who act as liaisons between werewolves and humanity? Don't quote me on that. But the veterinarian's sister Kendra currently serves the Alpha pack, which explains why she was chillin' in the bank that one time. Also the veterinarian is some kind of free agent after having once served Talia Hale, though it was unclear why the current Big Bad druid kidnapped him last week. Druid on druid crime, man. Shameful.

Anyway, back in the day a war was brewing between the Argents and the werewolves, but the veterinarian (OKAY I'll use his name now I guess) Deaton felt that Gerard was not trustworthy and the werewolves shouldn't fall for his tricks. To illustrate his point, he recited that famous fable about the scorpion and the frog:

Unfortunately THE DEMON WOLF and Talia did not listen to Deaton's warnings and the peace summit happened as planned:

But WHOOPS! Gerard had tricked them! 

He gassed the whole room, then he busted out a spiked club and started murdering HIS OWN MEN.

Though they were ostensibly on his side, he did not approve of their peace-seeking ways, thus their heads and faces had to be pulverized. Sorry, that's just how it works, fellas. Meanwhile we then learned how THE DEMON WOLF had come to become blind:

Haha Gerard poked them out with electrified arrowheads! Classic Gerard.

Meanwhile the Hales' planned assault on Young Derek's girlfriend went according to plan; they'd gotten Ennis to bite her.

At the last minute Young Derek changed his mind about taking away his girlfriend's agency and forcing her to change species against her will, but it was too late: Ennis had bitten her and she immediately started dying. Whoops!

Classic Peter Hale!

Poor Young Derek. Just when he thought he'd found love, she became a bleeding, dying mess in his arms.

At that point she decided she wanted to die, so he did what he had to do.

It was sad. That girl got a raw deal to be honest. She hadn't done anything wrong! But that was the point, I guess. As Peter Hale revealed, when a werewolf takes the life of an innocent his eyes turn BLUE:

Also, I guess that explains why Jackson's eyes turned blue after he'd spent Season 2 murdering folks. But anyway, yeah. At least one semi-burning question was answered in this episode! Blue eyes equals murderer.

Come to think of it, this whole episode was very eye-centric, which-- Oh! Now I get it. "Visionary." Haha, well-played, show. Yeah:

So, THE DEMON WOLF's eyeballs healed, but his vision was gone forever. Except, of course, when he wolfed out, in which case his vision was fine. We learned this when one of his betas tried to become the new Alpha:

Also this is when THE DEMON WOLF probably learned that murdering his own betas would give him increased powers and whatnot. So the moral of this episode was, the Argents were basically responsible for creating THE DEMON WOLF and everything that was happening now was the product of a decades-old cycle of vengeance between the two factions.

For his part Gerard seemed to have developed a sudden fondness for Scott, mostly because Scott was able to suck away his pain, like a walking bottle of morphine in the shape of a hunk. But Scott was savvier than to fall for Gerard's tricks.

Scott could tell that Gerard had been fibbing all throughout his storytelling hour. Specifically, he'd claimed that the peace brokering meeting between Gerard and THE DEMON WOLF had been an ambush in which the werewolves slaughtered Gerard's guys. Obviously we saw something different, and Scott had a feeling this lie was at the root of all their troubles. Long story short, Scott put Gerard ON NOTICE Y'ALL.

Then both Cora and Stiles commiserated about how much they were worried about Derek and his troubles because they both LOOOOOOVE HIM. Basically. I mean that's basically what they were both saying right?

Anyway, then we finally got to see what Derek was up to all episode:

He'd been hanging out at that old warehouse, clearly brewing up a fresh batch of vengeance! That spiral symbol meant payback was a'comin' and THE DEMON WOLF seemed to be directly in Derek's crosshairs. Probably? Because suddenly Gerard was back in the mix in a big way also. And hey, whatever happened to Gerard's brother that committed suicide in the motel, was that addressed in this episode? I seriously wouldn't be surprised if I missed that part entirely. Wait, was that why the hunters were chasing the teens at the beginning? Because they were getting revenge for Gerard's brother's death? Wait, was all this going down in the 1970s? Guys, I need to lie down.

So yeah, in conclusion. "Visionary" was like a TeenWolfWiki article brought to life. There were some truly lovely moments between Young Derek and his girlfriend, but for the most part this episode would have only worked if we'd been able to immediately start the next one right after. The extended look at scenes from future episodes was a welcome dessert, but it still just made me wish I could've skipped this episode. Just being honest! Maybe you guys loved it? That would be totally fair. I still truly adore this season and am eager to see if all these plot threads will come together in the end. To the future!

BYEEE


QUESTIONS:

… Did Young Derek have more game than Modern Derek?

… How often do you use YOUR spiked club?

… Was Derek's mother able to only shapeshift into a large dog or did she merely have a limited imagination?

… Did everything in this episode make sense to you be honest.

Previously Aired Episode

AIRED ON 3/8/2016

Season 5 : Episode 20

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I've seen a lot of meta and fic on how Talia's wolf shape and Laura's wolf body in death was because they were less homicidally insane than others. This theory has Derek's shape being because he always expected to be a beta all his life and didn't really want to be one (just to kill the guy who killed his sister). The whole explanation Derek had for the kanima - the shape you take reflects who you are - is interesting if you take Visionary and the Alpha Pack into account. Kali is perpetually partially shifted (even when it might be better for the mission), the twins can do their twin-meld thing... sorry, I didn't pay a lot of attention to Ennis (why is it that Kali killed her pack & started a druid revenge thing for a guy she didn't care about - she didn't care about his dead pack mate, and Cora said a pack member is like a part of you).
Although about the Ennis being boring thing, it was a nice touch when he insisted that the body of the dead kid be given to him - both halves.
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Not gonna lie, murder or no murder, I like the blue eyes better. Derek really needs to improve his luck with the ladies, this is getting ridiculous, especially since it's obvious his new girl is evil.
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Yes, most of the stuff made sense.
PS: That kid was the girl on Supernatural who had a great rapport with Dean.
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I know I LOVE that actress, she was also in the Mentalist she is very good at playing sassy teenagers.
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This episode did not make any sense to me because WTF WAS UP WITH THE CLOTHES??? When did the mid 2000's get to be so late '80's??? I happen to remember those years quite clearly (since it was only like 8 years ago!) and I don't recall girls wearing baggy-ass acid washed jeans, or crop tops, or guys running around with hightop fades. That was the 80's, yo.
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Well, until now I've been a lurker, but I finally decided to make a few comments. The first thing I wanted to say is that, like one of the posters said below, I also don't understand the confusion with the timelines and ages. Derek is supposed to be mid 20's. If the fire happened 6 years before 2011, that makes that year 2005 and he'd have been about 19 or so. Even if he was 16 or 17 in the flashback, that would mean that that year was maybe 2002 or 2003. Since only a few days happened between the end of S1 and the beginning of S2 (Kate dies, and psycho Gramps shows up for the funeral),that adds only one year since the first season. That means that all of that happened only about 10 or 11 years ago. Since Peter and Derek have been the youngest of the adults in the current timeline, that means that they would have changed the most once they had their last growth spurt into adulthood. However, the older adults would not have changed that much in just 10 or 11 years. Take it from someone who's seen over 3 decades since high school. If you keep yourself fit, and the Sheriff and Hunters definitely would have, you don't change that much in just a decade.
As to Price's questions:
1. Did Young Derek have more game than Modern Derek? Definitely!! He's become one damaged puppy since then.
2. How often do you use YOUR spiked club? I don't have one...yet. I'm not sure where I'd be able to fit it between all of my swords, axes, bows and spears.
3. Was Derek's mother able to only shapeshift into a large dog or did she merely have a limited imagination? I love that she was a shape changer in the true sense of the word. But I also bet she had a more menacing shape as well.
4. Did everything in this episode make sense to you be honest. Yes it did, and it really added depth to all of the characters, including Peter and Scott, as well as Derek.
After watching the preview for the next few episodes, I have a feeling I know who the freaky shape changer may be, and that's just wrong on so many levels. But I'm still up in the air over who the Darach may be. My bet right now is either Jennifer or the Alan's sister (the guidance counselor) who's name escapes me at the moment.
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The problem with this timeline though is that flashback Peter Hale wasn't nearly old enough to be Derek's Uncle. Stiles also got confused by Peter refusing to give a date and Cora talking about age "in years". That still leaves the possibility that this could have transpired earlier.
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I have to address this mainly because I need to know if u guys are thinking the same thing. Peter Hale said that he took the body into the woods where he knew it was going to be found. He said that it would just be addressed as an animal attack if sage had slashes all over her body that's a key. And she said that she experienced alphas and they don't know what they are in for. Derek was madly in love with Paige and when he met Jennifer he could.not.heal on.his own. It was the first kiss she gave him.that healed him automatically
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This episode doesn't make any sense... Both Peter & Gerard were lying about the past...Anyways I think Derek's story is still missing a part ... i know that this is not an important point,but when Derek & others joined Allison's Dad to trap Boyd & Cora,Derek didn't say anything about those sound generators...? I mean he already knew about them according to this episode right?
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That episode was worth it just for Derek's backstory. Who *didn't* absolutely love that tragic love story? ANYWAYS, the promo for the next episode hints that the big bad druid is someone close to Allison. I'm going to say this ONE MORE TIME before the episode airs tonight and you heard it here.

It's Mrs. Effing Argent.
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Young Derek had more game than Modern Derek but then pretty much every character has more game than Modern Derek.
My spiked club is just for show these days.
I'm sure that Derek's mother could grow sideburns and a unibrow if she wanted to.
Given how much they emphasized that Creepy Grandpa/Creepy Uncle were lying liars who lie lies I'm chalking inconsistencies up to the likelihood that the stories weren't entirely accurate.

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Too many comment to check them all, but even if I liked the review, this time I am afraid I missed one bit of information.
Gerard's comment about the third murdered doctor, just after the vet, Deaton, was rescued. "As if it was expected to be saved" or something like this.
I think this is a huge hint about the Darach, as the only ones helping Scott to save Deaton The Vet were the DEMON WOLF and his sister.
And as murdering your own brother would be seen as "not candidate" for Darach indentity, and now we are learning that it probably was staged.... I am totaly for Darach = vet's sister,
or else the female character didnt die at the first chapter and this is why we sometimes see the Darach's face as a scary "cirurgy-needing" candidate. IMO.
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All I can say is: I loved it.. Teen wolf suprises me every week..it shouldn´t be this good and addictive!
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Almost 800 comments? Yikes.
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Yeah, though I guess it should kind of be expected. Over 600 comments in the last two reviews and they didn't have anywhere near the amount of questions this episode did. Anywho, 800 comments? As you said: Yikes
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Clearly this episode is causing opinions. :)
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Top notch, as per usual, my dear Price Peterson. I couldn't agree more with this in it's entirety.

-Um, yeah. Baby Derek totally had some mad game. He was more sexual too. The thing is, I actually liked the fact that Derek was sort of this asexual character.
- In a week?
- Based on my limited knowledge of supernatural folklore I'm going to say it was probably easiest for her to shapeshift into a wolf. I'm under the impression that it's always one or two animals that are like a shapeshifter's "spirit animal" and they are most comfortable becoming that animal.
-Nope. Which is why for the most part I felt the episode was meh.

-Let's start with the timeline. Does it surprise me that werewolves have a wonky aging thing? Not at all. I've seen or read things where werewolves are supposed to age slowly or whatever. Fair enough, I can dig it. "Look Ma, I'm a werewolf!" says the twenty something yr old that looks like a teenager. I'm going to try that sometime. But while the werewolves not aging makes sense, the Argents and everyone else not aging does not make sense. Especially when we also take into account what year all this was supposedly taking place in. Poor Paige was straight up donning some eighties jeans, but one of Derek's friends in the background was totally rocking a nineties Kid and Play high-top fade and those bold colors and patterns that screamed early to mid nineties. Up until now we were mostly operating under the assumption that Derek was like in his early to mid twenties. And the present timeline is like what? two years ago? So 2011. I think we're all justified in scratching are head on this one. Add onto it the fact that now we have this background knowledge that Peter and Derek were besties (according to Peter, though I'm still questioning that too) and Peter now looks mid to late thirties, early forties. A good ten + years older than Derek, but in the flashback they looked about the same age, maybe a four year difference between them tops. That's the type of shizz that will distract the hell out of me when I'm watching something. I can't lie. I'm also the girl that will spend an entire movie trying to figure out what season it is because one dude will have on a tank-top and shorts, some chick will have on a turtleneck and boots, another chick will have on a mini skirt and a halter top, and some dude will have on a hoodie with sandals. These things are just distracting So I spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to figure out what year this flashback was in, how old the Hales were then and now, etc.
-Come wee lads, gather around and let dear old grand-da tell ye a story...Gerard's return is nothing if not entertaining.
-The whole time the narrative did feel awkward, so I was glad that Stiles said as much. I love that about this show. Sometimes they really do address what the audience is thinking. The entire time this episode was going on, I kept feeling like with Peter, especially that it was just odd that he knew so much in such great detail or something...it just felt weird, and off. I don't know. Plus, I still can't envision a tie when Peter and Derek would have been best friends. It didn't even feel that way in the flashbacks. I love Peter though.
-I think my boy Acro is right about this Stiles and Cora romantic tinglies thing and...*sigh* Why?! She was tolerable in this episode Small doses with that Cora. Still not a Cora fan though.
- The Scorpio and the Frog. The Scorpio and the Turtle. I kept cringing because I was told of The Scorpio and the Swan. Same parable different prey but it made my eye twitch a little.
-Demon Wolf was cool before Gerard destroyed his life. Gerard's pattern of creating monsters just to slay them continues. Wretched old man.
-Talia Hale was amazing. I really loved her. She felt like a shapeshifter/werewolf. I hate that she's dead because it would have been cool to see more of her. She had that great earthy vibe. She had this indigenous quality to her. I believed it. I felt it. There was so much grace and elegance with an animalistic edge and this quiet charm and strength...Loved her.
-Yup, the teens were going all hot and heavy. Yeah baby Derek had mad moves. Sure, Paige was a sweet girl who would have loved him for who he was. yada yada yada. The thing is, I didn't care. I was kinda bored. I usually am indifferent about flashbacks myself, but this time I was kinda like "meh". Maybe I liked Derek Hale as a mysterious broken guy. Maybe I didn't really need the back-story on him. Maybe I enjoyed speculating as to why he's so jaded rather than having it laid out in front of me. Honestly, honestly I enjoyed Derek being this non-sexual person. I mean I suspected he probably wasn't always that way, but I actually enjoyed that it was never a focus or a priority. That could have been so easy and expected. I always respected and thoroughly enjoyed his family and pack mentality, and the struggle he had getting to the point where he actually let on that he valued those things. So the moment Peter uttered the words that Derek's story begin like most stories did...a story about a girl, I was disappointed. Why must love, being hurt by it, being fueled by it etc, be limited to just romantic love? Why must love be so one-dimensional with stuff like this? Why can't it be about a strong family bond of some sort or deep friendship, or even those rare but meaningful and with some impact moments you may have with an acquaintance or stranger? But okay. Derek's story was a story about a girl. An innocent girl, and thus we now understand the meaning behind the eye color. The thing is, I wasn't all that interested.
-What I found most interesting in all of this, was nothing about Derek and eye colors at all. I was most interested in the druid emissaries thing. That was pretty much the saving grace to this episode for me. Take note TVD that's "witches" done right, and by "witches" I mean in the literal sense and what or rather whom the witches represent. I love that we finally know what Deaton and Kendra are. I love that it's unexpected and different. I love that it makes sense. I love that in this show, these druid emissaries are respected and admired. They actually have some control over what they do. They serve a greater purpose, but they aren't slaves to those they serve. And then I rolled my eyes and chuckled because just like Deaton, he couldn't just say that's what he was or anything. I mean he could have...eons ago. But at least we now know why he always sounds as though he's reading fortune cookies. Also, his extensive knowledge in lycanthropy and druids...all explained. As well as his connection to both Scott and Derek, lingering fondness and loyalty to Talia. Good times. Bring on the Druid goodness.

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Girl you are DEAD ON with everything you just wrote here! Especially about wondering what season it is. I always get hung up on stupid details like that myself. Also about Derek. I prefer my Derek to be an elusive mystery man. I don't want to know what he was like as a kid. Cool people like him seem to have been born in their 20's and imagining them as innocent kids is really hard and unwanted.
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Glad I'm not the only one.
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me too.
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Peter's age didn't throw me off. I thought he must have aged due to his double death experience (first the fire, then his death in the final episode of season 1).
Concerning the mere mortals, I think that ten years back grown-up people can pretty much look the same (age thirty and up), so Gerard, Chris and Sheriff Stilinski looking the same was okay for me.
But I liked to know when these Events took place exactly. Clearly before the fire, so that would fit with about ten years back. Scott and Allison would be preschoolers and therefore it would make sense that they didn't show up.
God, I wish, we could have seen little Stiles in the flashback! He had to be adorable! :-D
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That's the thing though, I mean, we're only assuming that it took place ten years ago, but that first memory was apparently Cora's which is beyond bizarre because she would have been a kid, but young Derek still looked the same. So ten years ago from 2011 would have been 2001, which matched the technology they were using when they shot the arrows. Fair enough, but then Gerard made a comment about dude in the motel and that took place in the seventies so it was sort of a WTF? So that first memory didn't match with Peter's storytelling right there, that's before we bring in the wonky clothing and hair and everything else. It wasn't adding up at all, which I personally find so distracting. But then, if Peter was retelling the story and it was really Peter's tale rather than Derek's it would at least explain things better. I'm starting to think, and stick to that, because I was already raising a brow at Peter's narrative as it was.

So much cuteness! I'm sure!
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They made a mistake having Cora start the story, but assume they did not want to show Stiles trusting Uncle Peter for any real facts. The only way Cora could have known is if Derek shared that with her, or if Derek shared that with other family members and it was told to her. Either seems implausible, other than the bare facts of the (a) existence of the relationship and (b) what Derek had to do.

The relationship between Cora and D doesn't seem like the type, even not taking into account the age difference, for the kind of direct heart to heart that Cora's knowledge presupposes.
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Ditto. So much of Grandpa Argent narrative felt like Eigties i.e Teen hood of Peter Hale. He is being fishy telling "Derek is brooding kind because his gf died"<- I find it hard to swallow TBH. :|
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Same here.

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Yeah, add then the comments Kate Argent made to Derek when he was strung up. About how people must have come up to him and asked smile Derek, why don't you smile more, and it seems kind of vicious in a I took your innocence and joy away from you and I find it delicious that I ruined your life.
Derek has enough reason to be as he is without a previous sob-y love tale.
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Oh your comment brings some light to the world.

I'm ignoring the age thing, until there is actual confirmation that something is off agewise for werewolves, I'm going to go with unfortunate casting and costume choices rather than oh werewolves live longer, because that would make the story weirder, and too vampire-y.

I'm with you on the retelling of Derek's supposed story, you can never tell with Peter, so unless Derek says it was so, I'm not going to trust it at all. I was bored with it from the beginning, it didn't really need mentioning to me. Like you also pointed out, we didn't really need this crappy love-woe tale for a backstory for Derek, it was nice not to know this aspect of him, besides it didn't give us anything knew character-wise.

I think the point of most of the episode was Druids, and their role, how they interact with a pack. What is slightly less clear is why the other packs don't have an advisor of their own? Budget issues?
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Um thanks! I try! *blushes*

I don't think it's so much that werewolves live longer as it is they age slower. But then to make matters worse Cora made that throwaway line about werewolves and they made that whole joke about her actually being 17.

I felt like Peter was telling HIS story rather than Derek's, plus...yeah, it was just sort of all over for me. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt now and assuming that this was all intentional.

Maybe they did and they killed theirs? Or maybe they did and they just happen to be consulting Talia's druid adviser? I don't know.
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If we could search through these comments (few people probably read them all), the whole time line confuses many people for that exact same reason: the ages of Flashback Peter (especially since he's essentially the same FP portrayed in Season 2, just without the bangs and without being dressed like a current teen, versus what he wears here) and Flashback Derek versus the way - and the obvious age difference in looks - they look NOW.
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Pretty much. I mean it's the clothing, it's the entire feel of the flashbacks. It's FB Derek and FB Peter. It's the technology being used. It's some of the comments that were being made in the FB's. It's the entire Kate/Derek thing on top of it all that. It's the fact that Ennis never aged from then until now.I mean there were many things. Like I said above, at this point, I'm starting to think that Peter was telling HIS story and not Derek's which fit in some ways with the wonky timeline.
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Jeff Davis got a ton on shit on the Tumblr Q&A about the whole timeline/age thing and his response was, 'why is everyone so concerned about their ages?'

Like he cannot fathom why or he simply wants to be both incredibly disingenuous or show that he doesn't give an EF. Best response to him was someone saying IT'S "CONTINUITY!"
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Wow, I can't see why he wouldn't understand that people feel like they need to be able to place these people in time.

Good on them, I read the Answers and it almost seemed like they have two ages? as though there is a human age and a wolf age or something. Disregarding that. I feel kind of like he's being an idiot when he says he can't understand why people are concerned about their ages. He's a writer as well as a producer so he must know that readers/viewers need to feel like there is logic keeping the world together.
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There is also the problem of the Alpha pack... I mean if it's only a ten year history? why would Derek even know about it?
But we also run into the problem of Deucalion supposedly killing that Argent in the seventies, unless Deucalion is an inherited name for the Alpha of his former pack...
and if this is the 80's (late 80's) and Peter's story then assuming Chris argent isn't much over 50 he'd be in his late 20's maybe early 30's here (and he can't be that much older I think) if he did have Allison old, but then we have the issue of Kate's age, and she's supposed to be younger, but by nearly 20 years?
No this is too difficult for my head at this hour.
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Anyone else scared that after these last 4 episodes, the shows gonna take a change for the worst? going crazily in supernatural stuff?
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It went crazy with the homicidal, can't be killed by a full clip of bullets/werewolves; restrained by anything; living in a memory fugue lizard!
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I guess your right lol
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I was a bit miffed that we got a flashback episode that added all this new information when we already had a tragic backstory for Derek. Kate Argent and the fire at the Hale House could've been a great episode. At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if Season 4 includes a flashback episode where we learn that Derek's first crush in middle school also died a horrible, werewolf-related death. Derek can't seem to catch a break.
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Hah! Seriously! Loved seeing Talia, and the info about the Argents and the birth of the alpha pack was good. But, yeah, why a whole new tragic backstory for Derek?
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THIS SHOW!
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I was surprised we needed a flashback ep at all (also it's so random, the episode could have been at any time...) Peter is all to understand where Derek is you have to know about why his eyes changed colour... (Can we all agree that Blue is way cooler than yellow, just aesthetically?)
Then he launches into a story, which gives us some information but Derek as a character is stagnant, what we get is that, seemingly according to Peter, the unreliable sociopath uncle, is that Dereks life went to shit before he got tricked by Kate Argent and lost near enough his entire family in a fire.

I feel like they should have kept the plot going, and had flashbacks in that plot development, because god this was a boring ep.
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wait wasnt derek a beta in season 1. i am pretty sure his eyes were yellow not blue......... in fact the only werewolf to have blue eyes aside from peter is jackson in the series so far... so was the story about peter?
i liked the fact that both stiles and scott did not believe the stories they were told, it sets about a change of pace- you know like we know you are gonna lie to us still we need to hear the story after all some of it has gotta be based on truth.
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First time you see Derek's werewolf eyes is 103, when they were most definitely blue. Your confusion might be coming from a certain promo photo where they were gold: http://i.imgur.com/L4XtPGw.jpg
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Woah, he looks really weird with the yellow eyes
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Yeah Derek had blue eyes until season 1 episode 12
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Nope, Derek definitely had blue eyes in Season 1. I went back and watched some Season 1 eps recently.
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I just want to add one more thing before I go to bed (as its nearly midnight where I am). My theory is that, both tales told to us are distorted views of the past, and are therefore unreliable sources. We are getting hung up on the where and why-fore, but overlooking the reasons why they would tell us lies. Because that is their own personal viewpoint. As Stiles tell Cora about the narrative in the Heart of Darkness, the narrator cannot be believed, because his viewpoint is distorted.

I believe that Peter and Gerard will continue to lie and distort the truth because they are psychopaths, and looking to manipulate events for their own end.

Just for fun, I am going to list the definition and characteristics as stated by Hervery M. Cleckley in 1941, for a psychopath. See how many you think can be attributed to Peter and Gerard, Have fun.

  • Superficial charm and average intelligence.
  • Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking.
  • Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations.
  • Unreliability.
  • Untruthfulness and insincerity.
  • Lack of remorse or shame.
  • Antisocial behavior without apparent compunction.
  • Poor judgement and failure to learn from experience.
  • Pathological egocentricity and incapacity to love.
  • General poverty in major affective reactions.
  • Specific loss of insight.
  • Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations.
  • Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink, and sometimes without.
  • Suicide threats rarely carried out.
  • Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated
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LOL! Looks like you had fun! Psychology is fun. I'm a total psych nerd. Honestly though, while from a social standpoint as far as what we tend to do in everyday conversation, it's easy to call them both psychos. But from a technical standpoint, I wouldn't personally classify neither of them as a psychopath. Definitely not Peter. He has a few sociopathic tendencies but not an actual sociopath. Which is different than a psychopath. But cray-cray? I'd definitely agree that Gerard is crazy old buggard! :)
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As a psychologist I must disagree with your diagnosis. ^^ You're lacking the second set of factors concerning lifestyle/antisocial, you just mentioned the first interpersonal/affective set (look up Hare Psychopathy Checklist).

Factor 2: Lifestyle/Antisocial.

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsiveness
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release
Criminal versatility

Neither Gerard nor Peter show any signs of poor behavioral control and they surely aren't lacking long-term goals They aren't impulsive nor irresponsible. They may be criminal versatile, but that doesn't make them psychopaths.
Like Komboloi mentioned, this is an overused term that I wouldn't apply to characters from Teen Wolf. I think the creator of this show is able to separate his different work projects.
Neither Gerard nor Peter ran my scientific bells (not even Deucalion), they're all in their right mind, just not in the right place.
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Wow, people are having so many issues with timelines here. I really didn't see the difficulty, that said I had the advantages of not looking hard at two key points.

Fashion, I will admit I have no idea about trends through recent years, if the clothes really heavily indicated late 1990's at latest then yeah ok there is an issue there.

Peter's age, yeah he looks significantly younger here, but people can go through some rapid aging, especially in a fire so who knows.

From my understanding of what they said in first season, the fire happened in 2005. 6 years before season 1. If we assume this is set about a year or two before that then almost everything else falls into place, no significant plot holes a I can trace (biggest probably being where was argent keeping Allison during this visit to beacon hills? We know Kate was there and having the other argents doesn't cause any continuity issues, but I'm pretty sure Allison had never been in beacon hills before season 1 but that's a minor plot point).

it does make for a rather rapid creation of the alpha pack, and no idea how Deucalion could have bitten the 1970 guy (I'm calling Gerard lying on that one) but Derek's age is fine, fire timeline is fine, as I said Peter aged a bit quickly but I think you could just say that the younger version has one of those young faces, who knows how old he is. It also explains the lack of de-aging on the humans, 6 years younger for these guys doesn't necessarily mean much at that age, and at least the sheriff looked a little younger.

If you guys seen an issue with this tell me lol, I am bound to be missing something, but it didn't seem that confusing to me. They were purposely vague about dates and ages in the episode cause they didn't want to upset there timeline, this actually Annoys me, they shouldn't hedge there bets and just admit to the dates. Especially since from my perspective they didn't need to. I think what has confused people is the vagueness has led people to think this was like 15+ years ago, which is rediculous but I see how the show led them to believe that.
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In the photo in the trophy case (Season 2), Flashback Peter is shown as being in high school in the '80s; they decided to use the same actor with Flashback Peter, but changed his hair and clothes.

Derek TODAY (Season 1 through 3) definitely looks a certain number of years older than Flashback Derek; the difference between FD and Flashback Peter should be far greater than the difference between the two actors TODAY.

We only know the dates of the current time frame from other props. The show can't decide some props are mistakes but others are not, or to use some actors and try to pass it off by claiming that werewolves age differently than humans.
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It's not bad to enjoy the scenes of young Peter and Paige, they are both 18 in real life so it's ok! Also, the oversexualization didn't start there... Remember last episode when Scott was in the closet with Allison and asked him what he was doing and he said nothing just standing there against her and she said "well part of you is doing something"...he apologized and said he could not contain it, so she decided it would help if she turned around... then he was pressed against her back side and said that was worse o.O yeah... and the ep before that where he walked into the bathroom while she was showering and commented that he'd seen her naked before.
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Could Paige be somehow related to Lydia?!

Paige is often seen in the music-room...in which Lydia ends up after one of her fugue states.
Paige also "died" next to a (druidic) Oak tree...which Lydia keeps drawing (without knowing why she does so).

Also: Peter knew that the bite wouldn't turn Lydia. How did he know that? Maybe immunity runs in the family...like some genetic disorders do?

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Where does it come forth that Peter knew the bite wouldn't take?
In the scene where he appears to Lydia as a newly burned victim, he's genuinely amazed that she didn't turn.
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Season 2, EP7 "Restraint".
Peter tells Lydia that he learned to always have a backup-plan and that Lydia was just this, because her immunity and other traits make her perfect for that role.

So he definitely must have known about her immunity beforehand...
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There is definitely a scene in which he comments on the immunity and he is astonished she's immune.
I don't recall which ep it is at the top of my head though.
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I forgot that bit about Peter and the bite! I just really hope some of these questions get answered by mid-season.
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This is one of the best theory's I've heard, you are probably right, cause Lydia does always end up in e music room and she is always drawing tress
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This is one of the best theory's I've heard, you are probably right, cause Lydia does always end up in e music room and she is always drawing tress
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Ooh, I hadn't made the tree connection. Interesting.
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I agree Price, I was fairly confused when watching the episode and I thank you for clearing up and basically recapping what was vital and important in the episode. Flashback episodes can be a pain and I guess you need like special skills to master them and man, I wish Isaac was there but nope he was not there at all. Ah poor Peter, nothing works out for the Hale family. Did it answer a question I was dying to know? Not really. Will this be an episode that I will remember? No. Was it a terrible flashback episode? It was okay, flashback episodes are difficult to make though.
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When I reply to a comment on this website, sometimes it works and most times it just doesn't show then replies to like 4 comments ?
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I can't stop thinking about Stiles' remark concerning Peter's narrative. It was totally off. He told Cora and Stiles things he couldn't know. I have a feeling he was reliving self-experience. I don't see Young Derek turning a girl for whom he deeply cares. He knew it could go wrong, why risk Paige's life? I'm sure Derek would have asked the girl if she wanted to be part of his world. He even did that with Isaac, Boyd and Erica.
Peter, on the other hand, is a self-serving SOB. Plainly to recognize in the way he turned Scott. So what if Paige was actually his girlfriend? Or he simply didn't like to watch his nephew's happiness and let the girl be bitten so that the other pack would take her away?
Ms. Blake could be related to Paige. Her reactions to Derek's otherworldliness was way too relaxed. But then again, how should anyone know how poor Paige died?
Is it Monday, yet? What the hell is Lydia? If I was Kali, I assure you, I wouldn't be in need of a Pedicure anymore! ^^
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Yes I like this theory. I'm not sure yet if it's actually the case, but at the very least we know we're not getting the whole story from Peter. One thing though- assuming it was Derek not Peter- maybe this story is why he took such care to ask his betas before turning them? He made that mistake before & it went horribly wrong so now he gives them a choice. Also, are we sure he knew it could go wrong? I would've thought so coming from a born werewolf family, but his reaction when he was holding her as she was dying made me wonder...he seemed a little confused and asked Peter what was happening. Perhaps he didn't know yet because being so young he probably hadn't turned anyone and Peter made it seem like something that is somewhat rare. But at the same time that seems like something he would've been told at some point.

But I agree, something in Peter's narrative did feel off. I had originally attributed that to the fact that Peter, being Peter, was spinning it to either hide something or to make himself look better, or both.
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YES! Oh yes, I was thinking the exact same thing while I was watching it and couldn't thin of how to phrase it properly. It really was as though he was telling a self-narrative which made the entire thing feel off.
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I agree.. I feel Peter was Telling a story about himself and added bits and parts to it to make Himself to look good, like catching the arrow at the very beginning and saving Derek
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Yeah, we were discussing that idea further down. I really think it works better with most things, although it does raise some questions about the continuity of the episode.

I agree that it seems to work better with Peter's character as well, and it gets rid of that pesky question about why Peter even cared enough to manipulate Derek into having her bitten.
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I wonder why Peter had such a vested interest in getting Paige turned. He never does anything without some ulterior motive.
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I've been trying to figure this out, too. While the theory that Paige was actually Peter's girlfriend works on a lot of levels (and Peter trying underhandedly to trick his girlfriend into staying with him would definitely be one), I think it really was Derek, as seen. I think there was some reason Peter was trying to curry favor with an outside pack. If he was always so devious, he may have already lost Talia's trust. With Ennis so angry and vulnerable from losing a beta, Ennis would have been just the type Peter would like to manipulate. Not taking into account Bite mortality rates was a big misstep, though.
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My first immediate question is... Are Reece's Peanut Buttercups different in America than in England? They look more cakey and less melted. Second question is... Why didn't they give baldylocks a wig in the flashbacks?

At least it wasn't just me with the confusion but personally, I feel like this whole season is less coherent than the first two. Don't get me wrong, I'm still lovin' it but I keep needing to rewind! I'm going to trial not having my usual beer or bong before episodes so my mind is operating at 100% although I didn't have a problem last year. If that doesn't help then I will move on to other theories such as whether it's the extended episode count or the distinct lack of Jackson's abs that is causing my mind to drift...
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Well, we have had some (just not enough) shirtless scenes. Maybe what you are actually missing is towel scenes?
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I can tell you that they are different. I worked for a British firm in the States...and they are always asking for Reese's when we come visit.
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First off, I've been a silent observer until now, but this has been my favorite online community, I actually don't cringe when I scroll to the comments section, and I wanted to be apart of it :) anyway I'm pretty much in agreement with everyone, the episode was confusing but I'm sure it'll make sense eventually. What got me excited was what's coming up, I'm hoping they make sense of Deaton and the guidance counselor/his sister, I'm starting to like their dynamic when they're together, and if they were to ever expand on their story I think they should cast this girl http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4920978/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1 Selina Kaye, I know she hasn't been in much but I think she looks a lot like Bianca Lawson and could be another element in this whole Druid thing. Just sayin
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I kind of forgot about the dynamic between Deaton and his sister (the little bit that we saw last season) until you mentioned it. This season so far they've been working separately, and I too really want to see them working together again (>.<)
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We didn't see them working together, just learned that she had (at least some of) the same insider knowledge that he did.
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Yeah, but they were together when they were tracking Gerard last season (granted the scene was only about 2 seconds), so I was hoping that they'd be working closely together this season.
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Not be be annoying , however it has been burning my eyes a bit , the greek from the tale is Lycaon not Lycan .
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Poor Derek. I just wanted to give him a big long extended hug. Also, I can not believe that I actually felt sorry for Deucalion, but of course I had to be because I hate Gerard. I feel sorry for anyone Gerard kills or damages. I love this flashback episode. I needed a breather from the constant action that was going on. Not that I mind it :D
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Am i the only person who thinks the cellar with the root that had Druid markings will become significant?
Druids lair/ place for last sacrifice / the point of resurrection of Blockbuster video?
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No you are not...I am kind of wondering how close it is to the place Derek was being kept back in Season 1 (and curious why the Hale property has so many underground caverns) which I guess was linked to the house and has been supposed as the way Peter managed to escape. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Cora takes Stile to the tree place figuring its as good of place as any to start looking for Derek, I'm just thinking since she was telling that part of the story it is likely from either her own memory or from something related to her by Derek at some point.
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I have to disagree about flashback episodes, and here's why: I was really interested in this whole Derek/high school girlfriend story, and I don't think I would have cared if they had told that story in the very beginning. I think I only care because I am slightly invested in Derek as a character.
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But did it deserve a 40 minute episode?
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Yes, because you needed Deucalion's background too for us to be all confused and conflicted over him. Seriously, all of the past three seasons is apparently all Gerard's fault (except Matt/Kanima, that seemed totally independent of him - though maybe Derek wouldn't have bitten Jackson if his family hadn't died...)
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while Gerard was poking THE DEEEEMONNNNN WOLF's eyes out, I couldn't help but sing BABYYYY YOU'RE A FIIIIIREWOOOORKKKK
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I love flashbacks and prequel because you know how its going to end but you love to see the story unfold and learn new things about the characters that will maybe help you understand them in the future.Now having said that I thought the all blue eyes explanation is kind of lame.Derek did technically kill Page but she was already dying All he did was to gave her a quick death.He did her a act of kindness and love.I don't think he deserve to have blue eyes by this logic.I was looking forward for something better and stranger than the killing of innocents equals blue eyes.I thought blue eyes ment you are a lone wolf without a pack like Derek was in the beginning that would have made more sense.What I don't get from this episode is what are the Druids good or bad.Are they here to protect humanity or to harm it ??? I thought Deaton was more a counselor for the hunters and the humans not the werewolfs.I sure hope they wont make him since I like is all Obi One connection to Scott
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I thought Jackson turned into the Kanima because something went wrong with his transformation. (Stemming from that whole I'm adopted thing)
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I just spent forever typing out a comment, then hit the wrong key and lost it all. I'll see if I can remember what I put.

Regarding the timeline and the theory that Peter is telling his own story, not Derek's.

Everything in this timeline is based on the idea that the scenes in the school and the fashion etc. seem to put the flashback at the early 90s late 80s. This assumption could be completely wrong, but I'm going to run with it.

So, let's say it happens in 1988, which is coincidentally the year that I was born
. Let's say that whoever the main romantic lead was, Derek or Peter, they were 15 at the time. 15 in 1988 makes them 40-ish now. That is entirely believable for Peter. For Derek it's pushing it and we'll have to work on the 'werewolves age more slowly' idea.

Now what canonical evidence do we have regarding the characters' ages?

In 1x11 we see Derek's driving licence. It has his real name on it, so we can assume that he didn't change his identity to hide when he and Laura left. It also has a date of birth: 11/07/88 which is (...it's an American date, so it's back to front from what I expect...) 7th November 1988. Which makes him younger than me! HA!

Of course, this could still be a fake ID (though why he would need one I don't know - he wasn't a fugitive or a suspect in a murder investigation then. He was in New York which is full of people, and as far as he knew the Argents were on the other side of the country) or he could have lied about his age (why? Because people would ask questions about him looking so young? He could probably pass for - it was issued in 2009 so going by earlier estimate of date - 36 based on the photo it has on it).

We don't have anything like as clear evidence about Peter's age. I even cracked my DVDs open and checked S2 (yes, I am putting too much effort into this) but sadly the trophy and the photo are annoyingly dateless. There is, however, a trophy between them which has the date 1987-88 on. It's not a great leap of logic to assume that they group trophies by year - although it is a little jump.

So, based on what we know of their ages and the assumption of the flashback date it makes more sense for this to be Peter, rather than Derek. I mean, if we widen the range of possible dates from 85-99 then Derek would still, according to his driving licence, be somewhere between -3 and 11 years old when all this was going on. In order for this to be Derek's story (again, based on the DOB we've been provided with) it would have to take place in 2004 or so. That's not impossible.

Now, the timeline of the Hale fire.

The evidence we have regarding the date of the Hale fire comes from a few sources. The police report, the Teen Wolf Wiki reliably informs me, gives the time of it starting as 07:15, but it doesn't mention a date. Foiled again! But no. Peter's conversation with Cora, no one else around, no one for them to mess around with or play games with, states that he knew her for 11 years and there are 6 years unaccounted for. If we assume that these are normal human, standard, globally recognised, years then we can put the Hale fire in 2007. (Although I'm not entirely sure what year the show is supposed to be in now. But somewhere between 2005 and 2007 definitely, 2005 probably fits better with Derek's age according to the DOB). That means that if this flashback was set in the 90s then there's at least a 5 year gap between the events we saw and the arson. That's... again, not completely beyond the bounds of possibility, but it seems highly unlikely based on Kate and Derek's conversations regarding how old he was. If we go back to my original date estimate of 1988 then that puts the Hale fire almost 20 years after the events of the flashback.

Of course, Cora says 'in our years'. I have no idea what that means. That might scupper everything. Foiled again!

Stiles. Stiles. Stiles. Good old reliable Stiles. Season 1 episode 1: "Dude, that was Derek Hale. You remember, right? He's only like a few years older than us."
I doubt Stiles would say that if he thought of Derek as an adult at the time. A few years older than us.

Derek's own mouth in season 1: "Six years ago, my sister and I were at school, and our house caught fire. 11 people were trapped inside. He was the only survivor."

There are numerous other mentions of six years ago in the first season. We can safely assume that the first season was set in 2011, I think, so that puts the Hale fire in 2005 from several different sources.

Derek states that he and his sister were at school at the time. I have always assumed that he meant high school, not college, but yeah, again an assumption

But we can safely assume from season 1 that the Hale fire was in 2005 and
Derek was probably in his mid to late teens at the time. In 2005, that is.

So, there are several possibilities:
1. The writers have screwed up the timeline and are retconning like crazy for no apparent reason.
2. The humans were mistaken and Derek wasn't as young as they thought he was at the time of the fire and his driving licence is a fake/has a fake date on it.
3. The flashback was a lot more recent than it appeared.
4. It's Peter's story.

Of the possibilities above the bottom two seem the most likely to me.

There are two pieces of information I cannot get to gel with this timeline and the story being Peter's not Derek's, just two:

1. The lack of de-aging in the human population of Beacon Hills.
2. The fact that Derek was at the distillery at the end of the episode.

And I can pretty much reconcile myself to the first one by saying that they wanted to use the same actors and/or Peter was deliberately setting the story in the same time frame as the story that Cora told at the beginning of the episode in order to keep it in line with her own private timeline of Hale family life.

The second one... I don't know. Did the older werewolves take the cubs up there to teach them lessons and say 'this is what happens when we start vendettas - people die and Deucalion gets his eyes burned out of his skull', 'This is why hunters are never to be trusted'? Or is it one of those places that all werewolves know about?
Or is the story actually his?

Maybe I've been thinking about this too much.

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No, you have NOT been thinking about this too much. It's one of the most discussed topics on line in TW blogs when they talk about this particular episode. The only thing you have done is pretty much put it in concrete terms.

The one detail you miss is that we do have a way to calculate Peter's age (similar to the driver's license). Hallucinations Peter (same actor as Flashback Peter) is shown in the Beach Hills High School trophy case as being a student in BHHS in the 1980s, which makes sense is he's Derek's uncle (versus say older brother/cousin). The only changes they made was a slight hair style and clothes to the actor. And current Uncle Peter certainly has a wider gap in age look versus current Derek.
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Heh. I tend to get too tied up in things from time to time, I don't really have an off switch. Glad to know I'm not alone, though.

I noticed the trophy, but neither of the Peter things have a definite date on them, just the trophy in the middle. I was assuming that implied that he was there in the 80s... but I didn't know if that was certain. I should have linked the actor though... but I wasn't sure whether they were just using him to show 'look, this is the past' like shows sometimes do.

But if we work off the basis that that was what he looked like in the 80s, then it doesn't make very much sense for him to look like that in the 2000s, because Derek definitely changed in appearance in that time and even if werewolves do age more slowly, that's a pretty long time to keep looking like a teenager.

If we work on the basis that Peter's that age because that is the age he was at the time of the events he's narrating, and therefore Derek is the anachronism (he's either not been born yet, or just been born), then it works. If it is Derek's story then the writers just used the actor because... he was hanging around the studio door making puppy dog eyes at them?

It wouldn't have been difficult to use adult Peter and make him look a little younger somehow. Although I suppose being 90% crispy and then 100% dead might change a person's looks, even a werewolf's.

I'm liking the idea of Peter casting himself as the little voice in his head telling him to kill things (based on his hindsight of what he goes on to become) and casting Derek as the ideal - what he wanted to be. And using the little bit about Derek trying to save Paige as both a wishful rewriting of his own actions and a justification - 'Even if I had tried to save her, I would have been too late. And what would I have done? Ennis was bigger and I was only 15. I couldn't save her.'

I really wish I'd paid more attention when we did Heart of Darkness at university, because I'd like to analyse the unreliable narrator in that and see if it gives me any clues... but I have a feeling that would be going too far.

I'm rambling again, but I also feel that the story is a little superfluous to Derek's backstory. Other people have mentioned it in the comments: Derek already had Kate and the fire, Derek has terrible luck with women. Whereas we don't know much about Peter. It makes more sense from a writing POV to embellish Peter rather than Derek. Also, if it is Peter then the episode is more rounded as a whole because we get extra backstory on 3 villains: Deucalion, Gerard and Peter, and see a tipping point in two of their lives. Also, it resonates more with the 'like mine' line.

Although, you have to wonder why Peter felt that he should tell Stiles and Cora his story. They were discussing Derek, Peter didn't have to tell them a thing. Maybe he was trying to help, by explaining why werewolf eyes turn blue, but he doesn't know why Derek's eyes turned, so he used his own story instead. Or maybe he just couldn't keep it bottled up anymore, not with Ennis dead, who was the only other person alive who knew what had happened.
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I think you've thought about this way too much, but at the same time I do believe the episode portrayed the date as much later than it really was. Everything that I've seen and everything that I've heard had me projecting Derek at his early to mid twenties, 25 in my mind just for a round number. Going by the license, I wouldn't be too far off since he would be, what, about 23, going on 24 right now? I tend to think that this season is the start of the new school year thus only a year has passed since the first episode. Since the first season at the very least ended in 2011, we are now in 2012 and right around that 23-24 age for Derek. Just wanted to explain my reasoning for that. Okay, now the good stuff.

We have been told how long since the Hale Fire when Peter asks Cora where she's been for six years. So if we take six years off Derek's age that gets us to 18 or his senior year of high school since most kids turn 18 during the school year. Take another two years off for the time that he dated Kate and we get to 16 for Derek. Take that last year off for mourning purposes/just going to school/being a werewolf and we get to Derek being 15 years old or the age when he was with Paige. I think the pieces fit fairly well with Derek, whether the look of the episode agrees or not (for the record, I really think it disagrees, but wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened). The only thing that really puts this off is that Kate Argent was apparently born in 1983 so she would've been five years younger than Derek yet they were in high school together. That kind of throws a wrench into the time-line, but one that I think could be straightened out if they need to. I mean, I'm too lazy to check, but was it said that she was in high school with Derek or was it that they were simply going out? I don't know, but I do think they did a perfectly fine job with the time-line for this episode unless of course this is Peter's story (which I doubt but it's still a very viable possibility) which then pretty much throws everything for a loop.
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Kate would be five years older, not younger... and I think it was always implied that she was cradle snatching with Derek. It's never stated that she was at school with him, only that he was at school when the fire happened and they were in a relationship. She becomes so much creepier when you look at it like that.

And I'm not sure about the timeline. I'm not sure that the two stories really did happen at the same time, although there were some overlaps. It's possible that we were being shown two different pasts.

Or it's possible that they did both happen at the same time (further in the past) and it was Cora's flashback at the beginning that was the one that was out of place (ultrasonic sticks, anyone).

Or all three happened in 2003 and I'm talking nonsense.
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Jeff Davis has been saying Derek is older than we think he is, but I think he was doing the red herring thing again. After going through pretty much the same thought process as you, I've decided that Derek's drivers license was accurate, the fire was in 2005, and Kate/the fire happened 1-2 years after the Paige incident.

Either that or the "Peter is projecting" theory, which I love for a lot of reasons, but the last scene with Talia doesn't quite fit and I'm not sure a TV series would get that opaque on its audience.
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I think we're just going to have to wait and see. I didn't manage to actually work out anything, apart from possibly that I need to get a life.

If Talia is his sister then that could be worked out... or maybe he was substituting her for his own mother. I imagine he must have had one.

Or it's all wrong and it is Derek's story and he just has had a horrible time with girls.
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Do you think that is the reason Peter didn't tell stiles his age? That's by opinion, cause he knew stiles would figure that shit out quick
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I'm not sure he said anything that would help Stiles place this story date-wise, so I'm not sure what he'd gain by not telling his age.
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You have been thinking way too much
imple explaination is -
Werewolves = magic beings, different rules
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Yes, but I had fun! :) And that's the important bit. I fully expect the Peter theory to be jossed within the next few episodes. But theorising is fun.
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Best response to my silliness in a while. Keep theorizing - it makes for interesting reading
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*bows* Happy to be of service.
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but stiles' dad isn't magical and he looked the same age imo
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Nivea for men
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that's a good product placement ad they missed out on...could of given them the $ for better special effects
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the writers screwed up the timeline--it's the only explanation that works with the information given by the show and extrapolated from the show by the viewers
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Never mind my question to you and carly-hope below - this is a very thorough overview about the age thing. Thank you! Small question, you talk about 'Kate and Derek's conversations regarding how old he was'. How old exactly is that? And is it Kate or Derek stating his age? (I haven't read all the comments yet, sorry if it's already been posted somewhere)
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I don't think they ever give any specifics, but I vaguely remember her saying something about how he grew up well, which implies that he was younger looking at the time they knew each other. I think it's when she's torturing him... though I can't find it when I'm looking back on my DVDs. Maybe I made it up in my head because it seemed like the kind of thing she would say.
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You're not wrong. I believe her exact words were "This one grew up in ALL the right places." I can't remember what episode it's in, but it was definitely said. I like to think that the "Derek and Kate" thing happened only a few years after Paige, which may seem like a short amount of time to get over someone, but I could have sworn they never said they were in love. I had always assumed it was just a fling, though of course I could be wrong. Haven't seen Season 1 in a while. This, of course, would mean that this flashback isn't actually that many years ago, only a few more than the 6 between the Hale fire and now.
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Oh and looking back at the torture scene, Kate makes it sound very sexual, although she does say that Derek was in love, but she's being all Kate at the time, so it's difficult to take her 100% seriously.
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Ah, thank you! It very difficult to find an exact line when you're skipping through eps on a DVD and you don't quite know where to look. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who remembered it. It's been about a year since I actually watched the end of season 1.
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I can't wait for the next 4 episodes! So much is gonna happen! But first, we have 3 confirmed major character deaths left to happen, for sure one will be Cora, maybe an alpha.. Hopefully Kari, fuck her.. And I swear if momma McCall dies.. I..will..RAGE! Haha. In this next episode called "The girl who knew too much" and we find out what Lydia is! These last 4 are gonna be intense, cant wait to see if Scott become a full alpha, and did anyone see the kanima looking Creature at the end of the preview? Wtf is that!?
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I think Lydia is a Druid lol
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That preview revealed far too much, so I switched it off before it was finished. Those who didn't see it at all are better off, and probably don't want to be told what we saw.
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thank you
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It was only 30 seconds of footage out of 4 hours, they'll be plenty more surprises
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This episode made perfect sense. By the way, the shapeshifter Talia was never meant to be badass. It's more of an awe-inspiring form since it's both A) the most natural looking animal shifter, henceforth she is better suited to hiding and fooling hunters that she is an animal. B) Easily marked by the packs as the only "pure wolf" shifter.

Derek back then is definitely smoother. He even had *gasp* friends! Flash forward and we see Derek as still very hot, but not nearly as smooth anymore. More like rough around the edges kind of hot.

I liked this episode because: Smexy Derek and Smexy Uncle Peter. Oh and Deuchaion still had his eyes sorrybutIhadtosaythat. Also, we see that the packs were once at peace, until something apparently brought it all to hell.

My only question is did Talia die from the Hale Fire? Or was she killed in another way? Obviously Derek and Cora are the only survivors.

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But I have to admit, that Paige werewolf idea by Peter was really, really stupid. (But I still love Uncle Hale >.<)
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I love Gerard's voice! The timbre and the timing is so deliciously villainous. So I'm glad he got to tell a story.

He's swinging his spiked club around (which is just the funniest weapon I've seen on tv for a long time) killing his own people, sticking arrows in people's eyes while delivering puns, oozing black goo into Scott... He is on a roll and I say: keep it coming!
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The actor has really inhabited this role. I no longer think of him as Colonel Tigh at all!
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Who is Colonel Tigh?
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I think that's his name on Battlestar Galactica, right guys?
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Haha, um, ok. I never saw the original version, and the female Starbuck is super badass. :) Is this "when men were men" line from somewhere, too? I'm confused as to whether you're quoting something. . . or being kinda sexist?
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Jerry Carter was Col. Tigh in the 1974 original and best series.
I have never and will never watch the "Re-imagining".
I prefer the original BSG, where men were men, and so was Starbuck!



I have actually seen the new BSG and i know he played Tigh, but I really wanted to use the "when men were men..." line for a while and this gave me the opening
Thank you Madelynn1984, you made my day
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This episode does make me wonder how scott will hanlde the whole slow aging thing. How will he handle the fact that while he will live thousands of years stiles, lydia (maybe), and alison will all grow old and die around him. He'll out live them all..maybe thats something decaulion will use to try and pull him away? i feel like that will be addressed at some point.

I also had this somewhat idea ..maybe decaulion being scott's dad but ..i dont know
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Not positive here, but I think Scott knows what his Dad looks like, so I don't think the Duke is his Dad.
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Then technically, Scott would've been born as a wolf. He wouldn't have needed Peter to bite him in Season 1.
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Not necessarily. Derek said he had family in the Hale house who were human that were burned to death along with werewolf relatives in season 1. It might be possible for werewolf to produce a non-wolf offspring.
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Okay, well, I have a co-worker asking a friend who will be visiting from Wales next week, but I feel like the expression "catch a sit" that Paige said was something Derek said is a weird important clue. I can figure what it means, but not who uses it or when. I actually suspect it is either English or a direct translation of an expression used somewhere else (like when you are stating an item belongs to someone in French, its like la main de Simone, or Simone's hand but maybe someone who is learning English or translating directly says the hand of Simone). Jeff Davis is from Milford, CT, I went to school in CT and grew up in Massachusetts, I know we have some weird colloquial expressions but that isn't one of them. Any thoughts?
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Totally off topic, but your first sentence of -
"Okay, well, I have a co-worker asking a friend who will be visiting from Wales next week"
made me think of the spam that keeps popping up on the site.
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lol...but the grammar would of been atrocious and that first sentence would of had every other word spelled wrong...but yeah, it does sound like the beginning of the usual spam:-)
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He said "Catch a scent" didn't he? As in he smelled something. Which is a werewolf thing to do. And he said it when they were in the distillery, just before they ran and the alphas arrived.
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Maybe, I will have to double check (okay, this is randomly going to be a problem in death scenes in this show, there is something that just isn't clear - like how many times did everyone have to rewatch Boyd? I still apparently have to rewatch that because someone said while Erica was talking about lunar eclipses, Boyd was talking about solar eclipses).
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She said "catch a scent"

but I couldn't understand Boyd when he was dying--only found out from this site what Boyd actually said
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As the poor girl had black goo coming out of her mouth, we might have to forgive her, but I get where you're coming from. Boyd was almost impossible to understand.
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He definitely said "catch a scent". He smelled the blood from the wolf from Ennis' pack when he was killed in the distillery by the hunters. He literally could smell the scent of the blood in there.
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I knew he said that earlier in the episode (and duh, knew what he was talking about), I thought maybe she was talking about something different because it wasn't clear. The sound on this show sometimes...
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Another cool episode of Teen Wolf... Loved how well the story fits.
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Still bummed about the episode, really confused. Among many doubts, the one that really bothers me is how Laura came to be the Alpha. Maybe in a pack that's also a real family the Alpha status passes naturally from a generation to the other?
Anyway I'm really happy to see the two storylines finally beginning to connect!
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I always assumed Laura became Alpha when Talia died in the fire. that were the 2 ways of becoming an Alpha before they introduced One True Wolf. You kill another Alpha and become one or the Alpha of a Pack dies of natural causes/not by werewolf hand and the Alphahood passes to the next in line like the British crown. I'm just wondering whether it is the oldest offspring of the alpha or if it can be willed on the most appropriate candidate.
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Thank you, that works XD
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I think it is an inherited thing and I have just been presuming Talia died in the fire.
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or she was a "true" Alpha, like Deaton suggests Scott is.
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I have no clue why, but somehow most people somehow believe Paige and Jennifer is linked, maybe Paige is the Darach and Ms Blake and revived through unnaural means because of the druidic tree.

I don't know why people think this, I would say Cello-Girl is dead (some times most times actually on TW people have stayed dead) Jennifer Blake could totally be the Darach, and the Darach has some kind of mind power, so the reason Blake looks like Paige is because the Darach used her as a template from Derek's mind, this makes more sense than a dead-girl being an undead druid.
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I actually thought the same thing as KateSullivan. I have a feeling Ms Blake is related to Paige, but she's definitely not Paige. Like I said in my previous comment, they could've came from a druid family, hence the lack of surprise/fear at the sight of werewolves. But who knows, maybe they are both *that* hard to surprise.
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I don't see why she should be, like I said, if as I highly suspect she's the Darach then it's no wonder she appears to look like what is supposedly Derek's first love, we have no reason to really trust that its true.
I have a feeling that druid families are like werewolves, rare and kind of stationary.
Yeah But there was no indication that Paige was anything other than human who had noticed young Derek mention weird things that don't quite fit.
The teacher's lack of surprise and true horror is suspicious, especially since she's new.
We know she's new because in first season it was man who taught english lit.
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I think it might be like Paige said, unlike say Mystic Falls, the residents of Beacon Hills do notice the weird things that go on in the town.
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Until we have any indication about that from another source than a flashback to a dying girl, I'm gonna go with people have no fucking clue.
Like Sheriff Stilinski and Melissa McCall, they have so far been highly suspicious, but Melissa was genuinely blown away by the revelation.

I'm just saying that if the Sheriff who we have clear indication is a very observant and insightful man, hasn't connected the werewolf dots, others probably haven't.
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It's that no one trusts Ms. Blake and then apparently, Derek has a type...I actually started thinking last night, why couldn't Jennifer actually be Paige's younger sister or something.
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No one should trust her, she's probably the most creepy character this season.
Younger sister? Seems unlikely Since she's most definitely older than Derek.
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Why is she definitely older than Derek? The actors look the same age. . .
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She's a qualified teacher, there is no indication this is her first position either, he was most probably in high school 6 years ago... it's at least implied in season one.
So if we allow for her to become a qualified teacher and having had a teaching position somewhere else before, she's at least two years older I'd say.
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I'm with you. Flashbacks are not cool. Plus, no Isaac = :(
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We NEED moar Isaac :ccc
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There's a theory going on that the story Peter told was not actually about Derek.

A lot of details were off and Peter was lying his ass off. So some thing that the whole Paige thing was actually Peter's story.

This is something that happened to Peter when he was a teen. Back when Young!Peter was haunting Lydia in season two we saw the school trophy thing with a basketball trophy and a picture of young!Peter as the best offence player.

So we know that Peter was the big star basketball player in the high school. Also, Derek should've remembered Ennis from back then, but he didn't seem to have more hatred for him. I mean, shouldn't have Derek hated that guy from the Alpha pack the most? If he bit Paige? Even if Derek-Peter set it up. Yet, Derek didn't seem to have any special dislike for a guy, just the normal amount.

There is a different theory, that Peter wanted the girl to die at the druid tree for some reason (that's why he manipulated Derek into changing her via Ennis). That after she died he did something with the body and that's how the Darach storyline comes from.

Something bad happened at the druid tree and that's the reason so much shit happens in the area aka to Derek. It's a curse or something.

Anyway, we'll see.
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"Also, Derek should've remembered Ennis from back then, but he didn't seem to have more hatred for him. I mean, shouldn't have Derek hated that guy from the Alpha pack the most? If he bit Paige? Even if Derek-Peter set it up. Yet, Derek didn't seem to have any special dislike for a guy, just the normal amount."

Because the writers have no sense of continuity? And when they wrote the first episodes with Ennis & Co they didn't know they will use him in a flashback episode! Clearly the absence of reaction of Derek to Ennis when he first met him make no sense!

Yet, I really liked the flashback with the Derek/Paige storyline. Too bad there weren't some hints of it prior to this episode.
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THIS: "Because the writers have no sense of continuity? And when they wrote the first episodes with Ennis & Co they didn't know they will use him in a flashback episode! Clearly the absence of reaction of Derek to Ennis when he first met him make no sense!"
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I'd be more inclined to believe that if Ennis had been introduced a season ago or so, but because it was only a few episodes I think that they would have made more of it. I don't think they're that sloppy and I don't think they write episodes of a season 1 after the other, they probably write them parallel to each other, so it's less likely that they'd overlook something like that in so short a time frame. Plus having Ennis and Derek hate each other on a more personal level would have raised more questions for the viewers and Teen Wolf does like to raise questions.
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Agreed. There has to be an explanation. The writers know this. After the Ennis thing Stiles actually says 'He doesn't remember it was Ennis, does he?' So hopefully it's going to be addressed (and not let Derek forgetting the alpha in this traumatic event be an actual reason)

If the episode's actually about Peter, then this isn't an issue and Stiles actually asks a good question with Peter answering feebly 'If he does he keeps it to himself'
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As I've mentioned further down, the more I think about the theory that Peter was telling his own story and pretending it was about Derek, the more I think it's true. It solves all my problems with the episode and it means that Derek and Stiles' conversation won't be nearly as awkward.

I expect Peter was thinking that neither Cora nor Stiles would dare to bring it up. But Derek can be all 'What? Paige? Who's Paige?' And Stiles will have a moment of dawning clarity and we'll have one of those scenes where it starts out in the flashback with Young Derek kissing Page and then when they pull away it's Young Peter and EVERYTHING IS EXPLAINED. Plus then we won't need to have another flashback ep to explain what this flashback ep was lying about, just that one little mini flashback.
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But then the real question becomes 1. if this is not Derek, then who did Derek kill, or is it like with all other werewolf things somatoformic? and because he blames himself for his family's death, the eyes turned blue?
or 2. are blue eyes something completely different?

I have to say I can't believe this is earlier than 2004, the Hunters look like themselves, the technology they use are not 1990 stuff.

Also I can't buy into slower ageing, it just doesn't fit, because in the first season Derek is completely personally involved in Scotts young age and the fact that it isn't love that he's in, which implies that he was young and quite naïve when Kate took advantage of him, which lead to the arson. If the guy was a 30-year-old in a 16-year-olds body, he would mentally be 30, and would have enough knowledge to grasp Kate's seduction.
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Oh, and as for the blue eyes, Cora's not the only one who has 6 years missing from our knowledge of their life. We know next to nothing about Derek and Laura's life between the fire and season 1, apart from the fact that they were apparently in Brooklyn in 2009.

I really want to know what happened to Derek in those 6 years.
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I agree that the werewolves age longer thing seems to really mess with things. And I also agree that the hunter tech looks too modern. Although that bit was actually Cora's flashback, not Peter's... and most of the hunter stuff was Gerard. I'm willing to believe that the two stories were actually in different times, but Peter fudged the timing to make it seem like it was Derek.

But then I might be adjusting the facts to fit the theory rather than adjusting the theory to fit the facts.
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It just seems wrong for that to be the case.
also it could be as simple as werewolves counting in Moons and not in years.

Yeah. I could see the theory of it being peters story being true.
What I doubt is that Stiles will ever actually speak to Derek about it.

And true, we have no idea what went on with Derek. Did he finish highschool? does he have a bachelor? Did he have to drop out?
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Episode was confusing mainly because I was under the impression that young Dereks girlfriend was the teacher lady that hump healed Derek... Guess not. Also I didn't know who Deaton was, thanks for clearing that up for me.
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Hehehe wimpy doggywolves.. Man you made me laugh again.. Love this review! I didn't hate the episode, it was alright. I am tho confused about the timeline and consistencies in this show..
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I have a feeling that maybe ... just maybe ... young victim Paige might still come back into play. I mean, who says she's dead? Some druid might have found her and brought her back to live and taught her the ways of evil druidity. Or maybe she healed all on her own. I mean, Grandpa Argent sure as heck doesn't want to die. Yes, I know, different circumstances. But still... possibility is there.
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So lets get the questions out of the way first.

1. Apparently he did, but then he wasn't a damaged broken man as a teenager.

2. Oh If I had one I'd have taken it to this episode

3. Hopefully she could do other stuff too, and she had a beta shape.

4. We'll get into that now.

I know we're supposed to love this episode, but I don't, I hate the flashback episode because it was so random! Why did we have it here? if we need flashbacks make them during scenes when the story is going forward.

Also the timeline is completely fucked. Because well first off, if you have people that age more slowly than others it'd be noticed, so that's an impossibility yes? and the Argents and deaton are roughly the same as they were before? (Peter Hale isn't?)
So we know this can't be the seventies, also the Hunter tech is definitely 2005.

My problem with this episode is how much crap and how little needed information was given. we are left more confused and feel like there are more holes in the story than we had going in. Basically I feel this flashback ep was incongruent with events that's been alluded to in the previous seasons.

One thing I especially found weird, was Derek and Paige, because if he's 15, then a year or two later he'll run into an older woman named Kate who he'll be manipulated by in some way sexually so she could murder his family (Wasn't this enough trauma for derek? Why are the Blue eyes not sign of Psychological trauma? That fits for all three blue eyed wolves we've seen)
If Derek had to perform a mercy killing on his first love, you'd think the guy would be jadded and untrusting enough that a Kate situation wouldn't happen?
Also it feel
s like they forgot things that Derek has said in season one, which doesn't imply he had this kind of experience. It feels like a oops we didn't think it through on the blue eyed thing, so now we'll need to change it. Also does it really work with Jackson? because can you say he killed anyone? if you're basically an automaton? And Scott did basically kill Gerard Argent, he's just slow to die.

So I kind of hated the Derek/Paige romance because it made the situation with Kate Argent so much more unlikely, and in season 1 Derek is clearly talking about her when he says to Scott: You're 16, you're a child, you're not in love!

Also the parallels between Scott and Derek have constantly been Allison is a hunter like Kate, and Kate destroyed Derek's life.

This seemed like a quick, lets make a tragic story to explain how he took an innocent life (which arguably he didn't, she was already dying)

Demon wolf as a Scott guy? Are we going to see everyone be like Scott? Also Anyone feel like Young Derek was more like the Love child of Scott and Jackson?
So We g
et shown, but not told that Deucalion was a nice peace-seeking guy, until he was horribly ambushed and mutilated, which allowed the dissent in his pack to burst forth and he was betrayed by marco polo.

I thought this was a nice idea.

I do wonder even more now why Derek hasn't killed his uncle again, because clearly they didn't take this opportunity to show he was a good person before he was disfigured in the fire, so his uncle being a murdering sociopath is not his fault, which is where my mind has always been. That he can't bear to kill the dude because he feels responsible for the guys madness.

Also the whole age thing with the werewolves, I feel like they should stop fucking around with it, it's not interesting anymore, it's just annoying.
Clearly if they had longer life spans they wouldn't be able to stay in one place for too long.

Also why the fuck are there FOUR packs suddenly in a small town like beacon hills?!

Also does anyone else feel like Chris Argents knowledge of Druidic symbols was used as a tool to make him more suspicious in a blatantly obvious way?
Cause I'm still convinced it's the Teacher (who somehow looks like an older version of Dead First Love? Yeah try again mind-fucker druid!)

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Agreed about the age thing. It's annoying.

The four packs are in town because of Talia being a wolf an all and they seek her counsel or something like that

The blue eyes are in an a sense about traumatic scarring. It's the guilt that makes them blue I think (not quite sure yet). Jackson can still feel guilty about the murders even if he was controlled by someone else.

Assuming this episode's about Derek: I don't follow why it isn't possible for Derek to have and the Paige and the Kate thing. People tend to repeat their mistakes. Plus he may have isolated himself after Paige's death, but untrusting? Why, Paige didn't betray him? It was his uncle and assorted werewolf stuff. So yeah Kate probably had to work hard to get him to open up and trust her, but once she managed that... Derek would've repeated this apparent pattern of his of falling in love way too hard and way too fast, consequences be damned. And, he must've figured, at least this girl already knows about werewolves (poor babyface Derek)
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On the Talia stuff, maybe but you'd think the werewolves would be more territorial.

Could be yes. But then there is Peter the sociopath.

Could you really believe a guy who'd had to mercy kill his first love would be open to falling in love with someone else just two years later? I do believe it is implied Derek didn't know she was a hunter. he would have known hunters are killers, seen as he was on the run from them here.
I think the theory of it being peters story seems more likely.

Also because this was pointless for development of Derek as a character, this story makes things more convoluted and just gives no real development to Derek, his eyes could have turned blue from his family's death rather than this.
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I get now where you're coming from. Someone in the newer comments suggested that the Kate-Derek thing might've just been a fling, not love love. That could explain it also
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Not really, the vehemence of Derek's reaction to Scott and Allison is too intense in my opinion for it to have been a fling between him and Kate.
Then there are the interactions between Kate and Derek and her realization that Scott is the second beta because he's in love with Allison, which Jackson isn't, mirroring history so to speak.
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We actually really liked the episode - it provided a breadth of background info that's not only relevant to the Alpha pack now (ie: the Deucalion stuff), but also helpfully clarified info on the druids, including emissaries like Deaton and Morrell

Do take some people's points that this seemingly effs up Derek's backstory with Kate, though perhaps that will still factor in. There's still sixteen eps to go this season
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As filler episodes go, Visionary wasn't that bad. My only gripe is that it slowed the forward momentum of the Killer Druid story to a slugs pace. I mean that is the arc plotline right? Part one is about the Druid killer while part two will conclude the Alpha Pack story. Couldn't "Visionary" have served better as a part 2 filler episode, other than the throw away line about the Druid Sacred tree this episode could've fit in anywhere.

I can't wait for the next episode when we finally get answers, and Teen Wolf....in the immortal words of Whitesnake "Don't you Break my Heart Again!"
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Also was I the only one to notice the total chemistry between Stiles and Cora? Looks like I was right, they'll totally become an item. A kind of obverse of Scott and Alison.
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yeah I saw it to...actually when I realize there maybe something didn't consider it because Stiles belongs with Lydia, but she's oblivious to him, and he deserves a girl who appreciates him...so yeah I liked it in the end..but if they age slowly who older is she from stiles? a couple years? or ten years?
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I would totally love that!!
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Most of this episode made no sense at all. But it was fun/creepy (that ear thing? I felt gross looking at it, urgh, TMI, show).

Also: wasn't Kate Argent, like, the one that broke Derek? tbh I was expecting that eerie kid version of Ginnifer Goodwin to say that she was Kate and I was like "star-crossed so cute" and then... No. Paige. So sad.

What was the point of having flashbacks if none of them are reliable? No idea. I missed the dumb teens from the present :(
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She does look like Ginnifer Goodwin!!! lol I also noticed
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