Official Discussion Thread - Last Voyage of the Jimmy Carter (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of lowriderz95s10

    lowriderz95s10

    [1]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 02/09/06
    • level: 67
    • rank: Johnny Fever
    • posts: 850
    Please direct all discussion for "Last Voyage of the Jimmy Carter (2)" here.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of mi4si

    mi4si

    [2]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 09/11/05
    • level: 9
    • rank: Door Number 2
    • posts: 160
    so we found out what was in the box and the answer was "no"
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of RoverGuy

    RoverGuy

    [3]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 04/29/05
    • level: 9
    • rank: Door Number 2
    • posts: 251

    Best episode of the season, to me.

    It looks like John is starting to a) Become the leader everyone is expecting him to be, and b) showing a more human, emotional side. Crying? There's no crying on Judgment Day!

    My theory is this: In the future, where we see Cameron questioning Jesse after the escape from the sub, John Connor is actually dead. Just those closest to him know it, all others thinks he is still alive, leading the resistance. That is why Jesse and most everybody never see him, never get to report to him. I am not sure if Derek knows or not. Just like the Dread Pirate Roberts, it is the idea of John Connor, not the actual man that saves humanity. Just my thoughts.

    So they captured a liquid metal terminator and tried to bring them over the their side. Cool. Unfortunately they won't be coming, too bad. That idiot that opened the box deserved what he got. They wouldn't be in that situation if it wasn't for him.

    Looks like Weaver has plans for disposing of her 'problems' in the future. I wonder if John henry turns on her? (based on the previews for next week).

    Still wondering if Derek killed Jesse. My guess is no, since you would not go back into the hotel and be seen if you just gunned down some one in the hotel parking deck. But then you did hear the trigger being pulled, but no gunshot...hmm...

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of sNaKeBiTe688

    sNaKeBiTe688

    [4]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 02/19/09
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 86
    ok, I'm gonna say 2nd best episode, because nothing can beat Samson & Delilah (Cameron telling John 'I Love You', Come on... only a kiss between the two can beat that!).

    oh yeah, I'm a Jameron, but I still really liked this episode from the very beginning where John and Dereck talked in the car. The next thing I really liked was the scene where John apologizes to Cameron that he doubted her. That was long overdue after all the crap they gave her. I also liked the look on Sarah's face when she realizes that John is moving away from her and closer to Cameron, who is kinda her nemesis. Because of this, Sarah tries to mess with Cameron's head a couple of scenes later. She tells Cameron that she should think about why Future-John sent her back / doesn't want her around anymore. It's clearly nonesense, but it shows how she disapproves of the trust John puts in Cameron. She tries to make Cameron doubt herself and her mission, but it also shows how human(-like) Cameron got. There would be no point in making a programmed maschine doubt itself. But Cameron is not just simply programmed to fulfill her mission goals. There is more to her than that and Sarah knows that.
    Another great scene that really suprised me was the one between John and Jesse. I would have never guessed that John knew about the whole Riley thing. Absolutely stunning! Sorry, for being a Jameron, but I once again have to point out a certain line: "Would I have sent her away? Would I have killed her? No.". It shows how close Cameron and John are. I mean what if Dereck had killed Riley? Would John have killed/sent him away? Probably. What about Sarah? Probably not. So you see how important she is to him. Of course there is also the possibility that he sees her as "just" a maschine that has to follow her programming and therefore didn't have the choice to let Riley live (It all comes down to the free will ). However, I don't think that is the case. Also, note that he said "kill" and not "destroy"...
    The final scene was very moving. John sits closer to Cameron and looks at her first, but I think he then realizes that she just isn't a substitue for Sarah. I understand why John leaned towards his mother, but I whished that Cameron had at least placed a hand on his shoulder or made a small subtle gesture rather than just looking at him.

    So, enough about that. This episode really helped to develop the John-Character some more. We now know that he's much smarter than expected and that he will be a good leader. It showed that he thinks about stuff and works on his own. In addition to that it gave him a human side. In the episodes before, he mostly kept his feelings to himself, but him bursting into tears and sparing Jesse's life really made him just.... more human, more like John Connor.

    About Jesse... What do you think? Is she dead? Personally, I think Dereck didn't shoot her. His gun "clicked" but it didn't fire. I don't know much about guns, but to me this sounds as if it wasn't loaded or the safety was on or something else. In addition, he wouldn't have had enough time to get rid of the body.

    I also liked the John Henry scenes. He is really making some progress. The line "Does this make us friends?" really surprised me. I also think that Weaver, telling him that humans will disappoint him in the future, is directly connected to the future-jesse-plot. I think the liquid metal Terminator on the sub was in fact Weaver (not sure what timeline though). I also think that if the crew wouldn't have opened the box that the answer would have been different. Because they opened the box and disobeyed orders given by a maschine they have proven that humans are not reliable allies (will disappoint).

    A few questions though:
    -What's up with the frickin' lamp?!
    -Is Cameron's glitch gone since she was able to hold that bird (maybe a psycological problem that was solved by John apologizing to her and therefore trusting her?)
    -What's the name of that song that played during the Dereck/Jesse scene?

    We really need a 3rd season....
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of jjrrffkk

    jjrrffkk

    [5]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 11/22/08
    • level: 2
    • rank: Sweat Hog
    • posts: 22

    I agree, this is one of the best episodes of the season. Here are some things, based on what I noticed, that I think I think.....

    This part deals with the liquid metal Terminator. (How about we call them the "Liquids"?)

    They were going to bring this box back to John Connor. Could it have been an attempt to assassinate him by Skynet? The Liquid had the means to kill him, just like it did to the crew member...and then take over his guise. So perhaps Jesse and her crew prevented that...

    BUT....also an alternative view..

    What happens though, if the Liquids had not yet made a decision, and they were going to make it in the presence of John Connor. The premature opening of the box on board the submarine, and the threatening move to use the high-powered rifle by the crew member may have tipped the tables in the decision making process. Human beings could not be depended upon to provide the liquid metal creatures safe passage (maybe this box is how they can get transported straight out of the matrix material they originate in--a theory). And this may tie in with Weaver's comments in response to John Henry noticing she had the "termination papers" ready for Ellison (to paraphrase): "Humans tend to dissapoint."

    The submarine was scuttled in an attempt to destroy the Liquid Terminator I think, but as we all saw, that damn thing can swim, and swim fast... and a question: how serious a blow to the Resistance was the loss of the submarine?

    Derek may have killed Jesse (see a thread below where the show runner person said that three loved ones would be killed prior to the end of this season. Jesse would be the first one). When John Connor asked him, Derek answered strangely--in the same mode when he responded to Jesse--"John Connor says to let you go...but I am not John Connor." The other thing that intrigues me is that Derek is saying that because Jesse is perhaps from a different slice of the multiverse time continuum "potential future," then he knew she wasn't the girl that he knew from his "future" (now his past). But I still don't know if Jesse's murdering of John's girlfriend would get her the death penalty. The clicking of the gun was a dramatic touch--you fully expect in your mind the loud report of the gun discharging.

    Even though I disliked Jesse immensely, I felt sad for her. After seeing what her experiences were in dealing with cyborgs, then her actions are completely understandable. But what was surprising to me in her last conversation with John Connor was that John told her even if she could have falsely convinced him that Cameron killed his girlfriend, he would not abandon Cameron, or terminate her. (My question to you guys is, why? Why would he make such a decision? Something else may have happened between him and Cameron "off camera" that we yet don't know about. But I don't know what it could be.)

    But John weeping at the end tells us a lot. Every time he attempts to avoid making a lethal decision, the decision still has to happen. And that he realized a lot of people were going to get killed because of him. Protecting him, or stopping others from harming him.

    I like this concept that perhaps John Connor died in the future, where Cameron and Jesse are discussing the answer (and Jesse's pregnancy loss). I would like to add something here.

    There is probably no basis for it (and it probably won't happen), but I fully expect a cameo appearance by a main character from Terminator: Salvation to appear on the TV show. Maybe perhaps Christian Bale himself! (Just a hunch, based on nothing. But I remember just last week on ER they had George Clooney come on in an unannounced cameo. Yes, I am talking about comparing concrete blocks and apples.)

    In some ways, I think John Henry has already evolved awareness-wise and emotionally wise over the liquid Weaver. He told her that humans are "sacred." Weaver did not say she agreed.

    Was Derek saying he had a brother (an actual blood relation brother--not "brother in arms" or "brother in humankind" or something) who concocted the software for Skynet, and one of the main purposes/missions of him coming back through time was to kill him? And that he did kill him? Did we meet his brother in the show already? Now I am confused on this.

    So there may be a fight between Cameron and Derek? Oh Good Lord..... Maybe she can refrain from killing him. On John's orders.

    I still expect Savannah to be harmed. (Not that I want the munchkin to have that happen to her.)

    Perhaps a virus will invade John Henry's software to cause his problems--he has been travelling in cyberspace all over the world. He has been visiting zillions of databases....

    This should give everyone a lot of time to "chew the gum" on this.... LOL

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Ranlier

    Ranlier

    [6]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 10/05/05
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 4
    I agree with this post- I also think that the top-secret T-1000 was being "recruited" as a full-time John Connor impersonator for the resistance.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of jjrrffkk

    jjrrffkk

    [7]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 11/22/08
    • level: 2
    • rank: Sweat Hog
    • posts: 22
    I like this idea too--recruiting of only a single Liquid Terminator? Don't you think there might be more than one Liquid? Here's another question: Did Jesse lose Derek's kid? It seems to me that might be what was partly behind her final conversation with Derek--"You don't know what I went through...." (paraphrased)
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of sNaKeBiTe688

    sNaKeBiTe688

    [8]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 02/19/09
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 86
    I just found out what song that was during the Dereck/Jesse scene. It's "New Messiah" from Dead Heart Bloom.
    In case anybody else wondered =)
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of DuoMaxwell007

    DuoMaxwell007

    [9]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 01/31/04
    • level: 12
    • rank: Evil Bert
    • posts: 461
    i honestly think the liquid metal terminator on the ship is catherine weaver, why else would they show us it escaping the sub explosion if it really had no signifigant purpose in the series as a whole? if they dont give us a 3rd season i at least hope the next 3 episodes ties up the catherine weaver and ellison story, thats the main reason im watchin this show, or at the very least let us find out what shes trying to accomplish
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of antilifecu

    antilifecu

    [10]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 07/31/06
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 410
    It is very interesting the theory about John Connor death by the time Jesse and Cameron are having the conversation in the future. If that would be true I think that in certain point before John's dead, he programmed Cameron to continue his legacy, I would like to say that John downloaded into Cameron- That might explain why Cameron told Jesse that telling her anything it is the same thing that telling John Connor.
    Also, that would answers the question Sarah asked Cameron about the reason John sent her back. Instead of assuming John did not want Cameron around, the answer would be John is not around anymore because he is dead so Cameron took the decision to travel back on time to protect him, and because she misses him, if we want reinforce Cameron's humanity.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of jjrrffkk

    jjrrffkk

    [11]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 11/22/08
    • level: 2
    • rank: Sweat Hog
    • posts: 22

    DuoMax, The Catherine Weaver story will be told before the end of the season. Why she is here, how she got here, and what her mission is.

    See the thread below about allusions to potential spoilers... It takes straight from the show runner person's own writings what will take place by the end of season 2.

    Now taking the idea that a Liquid taking over the persona of John Connor one outrageous step further....what happens if Ms. Weaver is the persona of John Connor from the future? Perhaps he thought that if he had as many potential "seeders" among the cyborgs that there would be a better chance that the Resistance would succeed, and that Humankind would survive....

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of jjrrffkk

    jjrrffkk

    [12]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 11/22/08
    • level: 2
    • rank: Sweat Hog
    • posts: 22

    DuoMax, The Catherine Weaver story will be told before the end of the season. Why she is here, how she got here, and what her mission is.

    See the thread below about allusions to potential spoilers... It takes straight from the show runner person's own writings what will take place by the end of season 2.

    Now taking the idea that a Liquid taking over the persona of John Connor one outrageous step further....what happens if Ms. Weaver is the persona of John Connor from the future? Perhaps he thought that if he had as many potential "seeders" among the cyborgs that there would be a better chance that the Resistance would succeed, and that Humankind would survive....

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of imjessietr30

    imjessietr30

    [13]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 11/04/07
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 58
    Well, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who started to think that there is no Future John, at least not by Jesse's POV (and if she's an AU Jesse, what's the point of caring? HER Future John could be dead while OURS isn't.).

    Also, I think the Liquid is Weaver, but a couple of nagging thoughts bother me: 1. Why stand up in the box, looking like you're wearing a motorcycle helmet? 2. Has Weaver ever used the "tsk-tsk" finger movement? 3. The musical cues and the speech pattern ...

    Long story short, that had more in common with T2's Liquid than Weaver does. True, it'd be a LONG shot ... but given how many homages to that one we see ... it may still be a possibility.

    Jesse wants to kill the Liquid by taking the sub to crush depth? I take it she never saw Abyss... Deep water is only a problem if you contain air or something. It's LIQUID. What is water going to do to it? I understand her group had never seen something like that before ... but even just realizing it's LIQUID should give off some common sense.

    There better be a DANG good reason for John Henry to frighten Savannah....

    Weaver is becoming more and more John Hammond. Let me get this straight: you want your "baby" to be super-awesome and everything, and you look so pissed when it's not doing everything you say? What is the point of evolving it so it's better than you if you're just going to act like an embittered human about it achieving YOUR goal?

    Why is Sarah being such a horrible witch to Cameron? This is the SAME woman who theorized a Terminator would make a good father! What the hell is your PROBLEM, Sarah? It's like a reverse-Oedipal thing! Why should a mother be jealous of a girlfriend? I don't CARE whether or not Cameron actually is capable of love (I don't believe in free will ... so I don't see why she can't). Even if he wants to screw a toaster ... why is Sarah so eaten up with jealousy? Christ, Sarah ... he's JOHN, not KYLE!
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of greenjellies

    greenjellies

    [14]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 10/18/07
    • level: 1
    • rank: Weatherman
    • posts: 3
    So... did Derek know that Jesse was pregnant with his child?
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of BiniBeans

    BiniBeans

    [15]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 09/15/05
    • level: 21
    • rank: Snagglepuss
    • posts: 519
    The finger "tsking" also had me thinking this Liquid was the same as from the second movie.
    I don't think future John is dead or was supposed to be replaced by the Liquid. The episode made clear though that there will be different factions of terminators in the future and I can't help but think that John Henry and Weaver won't be within the same faction then.
    I was glad to see John only played being totally gullible. Still get annoyed by all the secrets everybody keeps from each other. Makes you wonder whether humanity doesn't pose its own worst enemy.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of super_ps2player

    super_ps2player

    [16]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 04/12/05
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 877
    ......wasn't it future john that sent cameron back? so how can future john be dead???????also, jesse's future mission was to bring the box with the liquid terminator to serrano point (spelling !), not to john himself kuz cameron went in his place just in case the liquid tried to kill him, thats my take on it......don't know why ppl think future john is dead at this time........kuz its a long ways until T3 and it was only in T3 where arnold said he killed john in the future......by the way, ppl can go check now to see.......
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Sahlinrob

    Sahlinrob

    [17]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 02/25/09
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 49

    super_ps2player wrote:
    ......wasn't it future john that sent cameron back? so how can future john be dead???????also, jesse's future mission was to bring the box with the liquid terminator to serrano point (spelling !), not to john himself kuz cameron went in his place just in case the liquid tried to kill him, thats my take on it......don't know why ppl think future john is dead at this time........kuz its a long ways until T3 and it was only in T3 where arnold said he killed john in the future......by the way, ppl can go check now to see.......

    If future John is dead then that means he didn't send her back, she came back on her own....obviously. A lot of people think he may be dead because there is evidence pointing to it and it would explain a lot of mysteries, mainly, why nobody actually sees him anymore.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of super_ps2player

    super_ps2player

    [18]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 04/12/05
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 877
    ....well the episode only goes as far as 2027 in the future......thats before john connor got killed, so he still alive......assuming not much time has passed from where jesse was at the present episode and her memories in 2027......I think that was the date in the episode.....
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Sahlinrob

    Sahlinrob

    [19]Mar 21, 2009
    • member since: 02/25/09
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 49

    super_ps2player wrote:
    ....well the episode only goes as far as 2027 in the future......thats before john connor got killed, so he still alive......assuming not much time has passed from where jesse was at the present episode and her memories in 2027......I think that was the date in the episode.....

    If your referring to the movie T3 as to when John got killed, JH the producer of this series, has stated himself that this series does not follow the same time-line. As for this series, it never states that he died, let alone when. So IF in-fact he is dead in the future, there is no way to say exactly when this may have happened.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of CjTl2005

    CjTl2005

    [20]Mar 22, 2009
    • member since: 10/29/06
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 604
    Here's a thought. While I think the submarine crew needed more information than they got, they should have been able to put 2 and 2 together and decide that the liquid metal was not a threat since they were all still alive. It could have killed them all easily and then piloted the sub back to Serrano point on its own. I was thinking that "Future John" is dead and Cameron is carrying out his wishes. Someone else mentioned that earlier in this thread. I had the same thought watching this episode. It wasn't until Cameron was debriefing Jesse that it became clear to me that it was a possibility.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.