Official Discussion Thread - Ourselves Alone (possible spoilers)

  • Avatar of tylersmom65

    tylersmom65

    [21]Mar 7, 2009
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    Loved this episode. Did anyone else wish that Jesse and Riley had killed each other simultaneously?
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  • Avatar of shuvcat2

    shuvcat2

    [22]Mar 7, 2009
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    I missed it last night. Was Catherine featured at all?
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  • Avatar of Sahlinrob

    Sahlinrob

    [23]Mar 7, 2009
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    jjrrffkk wrote:

    Here, Let me propose a super outrageous theory....

    This is the theory...

    Cameron gave John this "blow up switch" device that is allegedly to something she claims she has put into her skull.... (this should set off alarm bells--how can she see inside her own head to place the mini-explosive? She can't... And two: How do we know that it won't accidentally set itself off under the right conditions--such as a huge fight with another terminator, when Cameron sustains blows to her head? Hmmmm....)

    But what if that isn't true? What if Cameron has given him a bogus "kill switch" for herself? Have you EVER heard in the Terminator canon a Terminator saying it couldn't self terminate? Ahnold did that in T2....he rode the chains down into the vat of molten steel....voluntarily. No Terminator up to this point ever willingly let anyone else destroy them, where they just gave up and said, "OK, you have control over my ability to exist"...."go ahead, blow me up"....."shred me"...."beat me beat me...make me write bad checks"..... (homage to an old rock-and-roll song from the 1980s....I heard it sometime last month on the radio)...LOL

    But seriously.....

    I don't think so.

    Termionators are ALL programmed to kill, and to avoid being killed. But if the fulfillment of the "mission" is achieved, they go on to secondary objectives....or if they fail in the prime mission, they go on to secondary objectives....that's consistent in the Terminator canon. (Mission is ALL: in the first Terminator film, the cyborg kept coming, despite being severely damaged....it kept coming after Sarah. Only the squishing it in the press stopped it.)

    And I think that Cameron is no different. Her "primary objective" (as far as we know) is to preserve, protect and defend John Connor. And that includes John from himself. She would not--according to my theory--allow anyone (including John) to prevent her from her mission.

    It didn't ring true... and I think that Cameron may have offered this "kill switch" to give John a basis to believe her from now on when she tells him things... the use of psychological manipulation.....very brilliantly done, I might add (from my perspective).

    Well if I remember correctly, Arnold said the exact same words as Cameron, only in a monotone Austrian accent, "I can not self terminate" and told a younger John Connor that he must lower him into the vat of steel. As far as placing an explosive charge in her own head, well with mirrors and a bit of skill I don't see how she would not be able to do this, especially when you consider how people on the "silver screen", television land or whatever can dive through a plate glass window, dust themselves off and keep on running, with a few minor cuts and scratches. Try that in real life....guarantee the result will be a little different. I saw someone fall through a window once.....it was NOT pretty.

    As far as Cameron having to be "programed" like all other Terminators in the past or present for that matter, and having to operate within a strict "Terminator Canon" also dosn't make a lot of sense. In the very first ep. John told her she seemed "different some how"..she said "I am" as she walked away munching away on potato chip. I can't remember one ep where she didn't do something that would indicate that she does things on a regular basis that have no bearing on a strict mission to protect John Connor. If she was simply "programed" to guard John, why worry about what he might think of her, or what others may think? She could just follow him around like a zombie and be just as effective. It wouldn't' matter if he totally hated her..what could he do about it? Why bother gaining her trust? she could still do her job. Her vocal tones and facial expressions are always showing things like surprise, fear, sadness, rejection and even on a few occasions joy. Her cold and insensitive remarks seem to be more like what you might expect from the mouth of a 5 year old child with an adult vocabulary than a non caring machine. There has not been one time that when someone said something negative about him behind his back that she didn't jump to his defense, why bother with that? All through the series she has been doing subtle and sometimes not so subtle things to gain his approval (usually back fire due to her total lack of socialization). Cameron is light years away from the "normal" Terminator. When you can fully except this as fact, all her strange behavior seems to fall into place. I think it was Sherlock Holmes that once said.... "when you start an investigation, start by assuming the obvious"

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  • Avatar of BAGTbird

    BAGTbird

    [24]Mar 7, 2009
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    The characters need WWFJD? (What Would Future John Do?) bracelets.

    Also, did Derek just ditch his mission or are we going to see the conclusion next week? He's gonna have trouble if he's counting on Jesse to be there.

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    Thee_Dragon

    [25]Mar 7, 2009
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    In what seems to me like an odd bit of symmetry the first good episode (that I can remember) since Riley was brought into was the one where she dies. Sure the one's in between had their moments, but hopefully the show can finally get back on track for the last few episodes of the season and probably the series.

    As a side note, the Riley and Jesse fight was one of the few times where I actually didn't know who was going to win. Nice to see Jesse bit it though, and hopefully with it that awful side plot. Of course, the fact Jesse killed Riley is essentially a death knell. In all likelyhood John will probably be one the one who does it too. I wonder if the experience will embitter him towards the resitance fighters drawing him closer to Cameron to the point where was in Jesse's future?

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    DuoMaxwell007

    [26]Mar 7, 2009
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    i liked the episode too except for the riley dying part at the very least i was hoping theyd find out about her being from the future and maybe about jesee too before they got rid of her. I was sooo expecting Sarah or John to ask her "Well your father mentioned the world ending and bleach skulls, so if you didnt hear that from me (or in sarahs's case John) then how do you know about it?" No way she coulda possibly avoided that question without telling it all
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  • Avatar of coyotemoon722

    coyotemoon722

    [27]Mar 8, 2009
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    This episode is a pivotal plot point in the series. Now the Child Services Agency will be asking more questions, and really starting to investigate Sarah and John. Which in my prediction, will force them to move again. Of course Sarah and John only think that maybe Riley ran away, but still the house will become unsafe.

    One other thing I wanted to mention is I hate where they took Ellis's character. How the hell could he keep working for Weaver after all of the hate towards the machines leading up to series 2? He basically saw a machine destroy his entire SWAT dept, yet he's still working for Weaver who wants to study the robot completely without permission of the government. Not to mention she's obviously off, and in the FBI they train you to know when something's not right, there's no way he could think she's totally legit the way she acts with him. None of that plot area makes sense to me, and is very annoying

    Also him digging up John Henry to begin with was lame. Idk, I honestly can't stand that part of the story. /rant.

    Here's to hoping things start coming together for a good season 2 finale, looks like it's already started to somewhat.

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    DuoMaxwell007

    [28]Mar 8, 2009
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    i actually like the whole ellison plot. Im hoping he find out about Weaver (im dying to see what he does when he finds out shes a machine too) or at the very least we find out what Weaver's actually trying to accomplish, by the end of this season
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    coyotemoon722

    [29]Mar 8, 2009
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    Lol sorry Elison* I couldn't for the life of me come up with his name and Ellis was as close as I got.

    I'm just saying in the FBI they teach you to KNOW when something's not right, and she's been extremely freaky, and acting exactly in a way that he should've picked up that she's not right, if anything he should've reported the incident (with proof) to the FBI. The only thing I can see is that he doesn't trust the FBI now because she impersonated his investigating officer, but still, he's got seriously proof now in this robot that is extremely dangerous. As inquisitive and bible-fearing as he was before the robot killed off the 15 or so agents, he's the exact opposite now.

    Edited on 03/08/2009 11:08am
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  • Avatar of m00nshadow

    m00nshadow

    [30]Mar 8, 2009
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    This episode was another amazing entry. Most notable moment that no one has mentioned yet: John tells Cameron, "You weren't built to fight other machines." If not, then her main purpose is not, in fact, physical security. That's just an added benefit. Also interesting is the "new" Sarah, following her "rebirth" as a "bad dream" and a bad [censored last word of previous episode]". She no longer trusts/believes John. If she did, she would have figured out in a flash the truth about Riley's outburst.

    It has never been clear which side Jesse was fighting on. What is clear is that she has been doing nothing but manipulate Derrick from the first moment he "happened" to see her out jogging, and that she was behind the break-in at the Connors' home. What has not been clear until now was whether she might be a terminator herself. Now we know she's not.

    Also wonderful, the throwaway line about wasting apples. Apples have been a recurring reference throughout the show, as a shorthand for the privations of the future. (See my first blog entry for previous apple references.)

    Bravo to the show's creator and writers.

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  • Avatar of sNaKeBiTe688

    sNaKeBiTe688

    [31]Mar 8, 2009
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    Well, Cameron actually isn't built to fight other machines. She was built by Skynet as an infiltrator (said in "Allison From Palmdale" I think...). So she was built to fight humans. She was then reprogrammed and it became her mission to fight other robots. However, I also doubt that physical security is her only purpose. She obviously plays an important role in John's development and even has some kind of "schedule" for him.
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  • Avatar of Sahlinrob

    Sahlinrob

    [32]Mar 8, 2009
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    sNaKeBiTe688 wrote:
    Well, Cameron actually isn't built to fight other machines. She was built by Skynet as an infiltrator (said in "Allison From Palmdale" I think...). So she was built to fight humans. She was then reprogrammed and it became her mission to fight other robots. However, I also doubt that physical security is her only purpose. She obviously plays an important role in John's development and even has some kind of "schedule" for him.

    I was writing a series of posts about Cameron and was leading up to this point among other things(physical protection not being her only mission) until they all got deleted somehow. This is something I noticed after reviewing just the first season a few times. Any way, I'm just going to "throw it out" as to what I think the deal is with her. The statement that she was "not built to fight other machines"" just reinforces my belief.

    1. She was built as a prototype by skynet as an infiltrator, so advanced that she has the capacity to learn and fully understand every human condition there is and not only learn it, but live as a human as well, all the emotions, feelings, passions, etc. The most important feature..total free will, the ability to "override" her basic programing if she should choose to do so. In the ep. where John removed her chip to sabotage the traffic lights he said "her chip is the most sophisticated learning computer on earth". I believe her full potential is unknown, even to her.

    2. A very Strong possibility that she was never "reprogrammed" or her chip altered in any way. She in time "defected" to the resistance (John) of her own free choice.

    3. Because of her "defection", Skynet never built another like her, but rather more "watered down" versions like Vick and Cromarti, she is also on Skynets "hit list" right along with John. Notice in the 1st ep.(pilot) that when Cromarti opened fire in the classroom, he was shooting at her only. After she went down he was going straight for her to perhaps "finish her off" permanently? Only when John dashed for the window and possible escape did he go after him. In the Mexico ep, while driving with Sarah as his prisoner he specifically asked if she(Cameron) had been damaged in the Jeep explosion. In the ep where Cromarti teamed up with Jodi (Cam's friend from the Palmdale ep.) he was actually looking for Cam and after Jodi said she new her brother (John) he acted like that was just an added bonus. She is far to valuable, with too much information to let live serving the enemy and must be "Terminated".

    4. It was through her "defection" that the resistance learned of the "time portal" and the original plot to assinate Sarah Connor.

    5. It was through her "defection" that John learned how to capture and reprogram other cyborgs by studying her chip. Again in the ep. where they were to sabotage the traffic lights, just before he removed her chip he got nervous and she said "It's OK John..it's not the first time WE'VE done this", in ref. to the future. The use of the word we've as oppose to you've, suggests she submitted to him..she was not a prisoner but acting of her free will.

    6. In the ep where Derick and company had been captured by Skynet and were being taken down to a room where music was playing, it was her that was down there. She was posing as an "interrogator" but working for John to effect their escape. This would be before her "defection" was discovered by Skynet". Remember the ax that appeared the next morning that Derick used to break the chains? How do you think it got there? How did he recognize her when he got back to base as a cyborg? The same music playing as the time he caught her practicing ballet in her room.

    7. She volunteered to go back in time to look after John in ALL ways, even on a personal and emotional level, to teach and prepare in ways his mother never could (remember, that while probally not on the series, she will die of cancer before J-day comes). Also to fully develop her human side in a better enviroment than the post J-day world. She needs him as much as he needs her.

    8. She and John will enter into a verry close, deep personal relationship with each other, not necassasarly sexual, but I don't totally rule that out.

    9. Her role in the final victory over Skynet will on the same level of importance as John himself.

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  • Avatar of Jaywork334

    Jaywork334

    [33]Mar 8, 2009
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    Sahlinrob, I know you said you were just throwing stuff out there. I was skeptical but after point 6 I think I have to agree with you. I always wondered how Derek escaped. I never had an explantion but Cameron saving him would make perfect sense. I also always assumed she was lying when she told Alison she admired John Connor. If shes a machine, how can she admire anyone? In retrospect, if Cameron has free will as you suggest, I can see her "deciding" to follow John.
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  • Avatar of tylersmom65

    tylersmom65

    [34]Mar 9, 2009
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    Thank you sahlinrob - that definitely cleared some things up for me!
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  • Avatar of sNaKeBiTe688

    sNaKeBiTe688

    [35]Mar 9, 2009
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    @Sahlinrob:

    That is quite an interesting theory, but I somehow disagree with you. I don't know... For me it wouldn't make any sense if Skynet gave Cameron a free will. Don't get me wrong, she definitely has one NOW, but I think that is the result of the explosion and the damage to her chip or her programming. I'm also uncertain about her emotions. I mean it's quite possible (and logical) that Skynet would equip an infiltrator with (at least an understanding about) human emotions, but I don't see any evidence for all that prior to the car crash. All this came slowly during season 2.

    regarding point 5: I've always thought that Cameron meant with "It's not the first time WE'VE done this", the scene in episode five where John assisted Cameron in dismantling that Terminator that went after Derick. But I could be wrong... Who knows^^ I can't wait for the next couple of episodes where everything will be explained.

    Oh, btw.: I also noticed that some posts were deleted (especially yours, which is kinda sad, because I really liked them ). Yesterday I posted something in your thread "Just a thought on Cameron" that got deleted too. Maybe a failure in the database? Because tv.com did have problems yesterday.

    Edited on 03/09/2009 8:41am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of Kai-X

    Kai-X

    [36]Mar 9, 2009
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    That was a fantastic episode. Makes a change from the last few. I'm kinda glad that Riley is gone. She was starting to annoy me, although I do feel sorry for her after that episode, seeing as how Jesse used her. That woman, I do not like at all.

    Sahlinrob, good post. Not saying i agree, but its a very well thought out theory, and i like it.

    Edited on 03/09/2009 8:56am
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    haldrey

    [37]Mar 9, 2009
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    tylersmom65 wrote:
    Loved this episode. Did anyone else wish that Jesse and Riley had killed each other simultaneously?


    I did. I hate both characters, but at least one is gone. Bring the Terminator back in.
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  • Avatar of Sahlinrob

    Sahlinrob

    [38]Mar 9, 2009
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    sNaKeBiTe688 wrote:

    @Sahlinrob:

    That is quite an interesting theory, but I somehow disagree with you. I don't know... For me it wouldn't make any sense if Skynet gave Cameron a free will. Don't get me wrong, she definitely has one NOW, but I think that is the result of the explosion and the damage to her chip or her programming. I'm also uncertain about her emotions. I mean it's quite possible (and logical) that Skynet would equip an infiltrator with (at least an understanding about) human emotions, but I don't see any evidence for all that prior to the car crash. All this came slowly during season 2.

    regarding point 5: I've always thought that Cameron meant with "It's not the first time WE'VE done this", the scene in episode five where John assisted Cameron in dismantling that Terminator that went after Derick. But I could be wrong... Who knows^^ I can't wait for the next couple of episodes where everything will be explained.

    Oh, btw.: I also noticed that some posts were deleted (especially yours, which is kinda sad, because I really liked them ). Yesterday I posted something in your thread "Just a thought on Cameron" that got deleted too. Maybe a failure in the database? Because tv.com did have problems yesterday.

    This is a very valid point (Why Skynet would give her a free will) so I will try to clear this up.

    I never stated that they created her with these things (total free will, all human feelings and emotions etc.) but rather the CAPABILITY to have them, even if they did intentionally give her a form of free will this could explained as a way to make her more "flexible" to better be able to deal with unforeseen factors that might arise as opposed to straight "blind unquestioned programing". However I like you don't think that was the original plan, but rather that she was an "experiment that went wrong" (from Skynets point of view). This is what I think happened.

    Skynet is a machine (computer) in the classic sense, cold, calculating, no feelings or emotions of any sort. While they probably were aware of these things on a intellectual level in the human make up, there is no possible way they could have even the remotest idea of how these things could effect behavior having never experienced them. To produce a very convincing "infiltrator" class of terminator it would be a logical assumption on their part to be able to make an accurate as possible "copy" of the human brain. With the help of Charles Fisher (the human turncoat) I believe this is what they did. They managed to 100% "map out" the human brain and reproduce it in a smaller more compact form (Camerons chip). She was created not so much with these things already "in place" but rather with the ability to develop them. A new born baby has very little emotion, no sense of right and wrong, no appreciation of of much of anything and very little free choice as it has no life experience to give it things to choose from. These are for the most part learned experiences. It's like Cameron was a new born baby in the body of a 17 year old girl. Skynet created in her a perfect "copy" of the human brain not fully realizing what that might imply. They had created a "monster" (from their point of view) that would ultimately turn against them. The first season is loaded with examples of her experiencing human feelings. Their usually very subtle but their there. The Jeep explosion explosion created problems at the time, but I don't think it has had anything at all to do with the way she has acted since then or the problems she has been having. I think their just a case of her developing more and stronger emotions, a greater ability of free choice etc. too quickly, and she simply dosen't know how to interpret these new feelings. Like when you put too much info too quickly into your pc and get the message "the program xxxx has encountered a problem and needs to close". She is having internal conflicts and is becoming confused...growing pains..which in her case could prove to have very serious results.

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    intheb0x

    [39]Mar 9, 2009
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    "6. In the ep where Derick and company had been captured by Skynet and were being taken down to a room where music was playing, it was her that was down there. She was posing as an "interrogator" but working for John to effect their escape. This would be before her "defection" was discovered by Skynet". Remember the ax that appeared the next morning that Derick used to break the chains? How do you think it got there? How did he recognize her when he got back to base as a cyborg? The same music playing as the time he caught her practicing ballet in her room."

    what episode is this that you are talking about in point 6?? where derrick and crew was captured and camron was there?? thanks

    Edited on 03/09/2009 2:27pm
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  • Avatar of Sahlinrob

    Sahlinrob

    [40]Mar 9, 2009
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    This episode, I think, will prove to be a major "pivotal point" in the development in Cameron's character and possibly to an even greater degree in John's. The ep. was clearly centered around Cam. The part about Jessie killing Riley is just "setting the stage" for events to come for Cameron and John (in the next ep. Jessie will attempt to frame Cameron with Riley's murder). It's plain to see that Cam is starting to be able to see things in other than "black and white". When Sarah was questioning her in regards to Riley one of her(Cameron's) answers was "it's hard to say", totally out of character. Her previous to this episode replies would almost always be yes, no, or I don't know. At the beginning when she's talking to the bird, I'm sure she knew that the bird couldn't understand her, but isn't this something "normal" people do on a regular basis? not normal for her however. When she accidental crushed it, what she had done clearly had an emotional effect on her. During her "face off" with Riley it clearly showed her, perhaps for the first time in her life, exercising "self control". It was obvious she wanted to kill her but something was stoping her. How many times have you had "blood in your eyes" for someone that may have wronged you? You stare at them with "daggers in your eyes", your mind races 100 mph while you consider the possible consequences of your proposed act, basic right and wrong etc. your hands and face twitch as your more basic primitive passions urge you on to choke the life out of him. Could this be what she was going through? and if so not having a clue as to why she couldn't go through with her intent to kill her? or what to do about the situation? "what am I going to do with you?". John.."were you going to kill her?"....Cam.."I don't know what I was going to do"....John.."since when do you not know what you'r going to do?"......Cam.." I don't know".....John.."what's happening with you"..Cam.."I don't know". I think that she is experiencing new feelings and emotions, possibly even a sense of basic right and wrong awakening with in her and simply can't explain it to herself or anybody else.

    She has always been totally devoted to John, no question there, but has looked at him as if he was not really capable of making his own choices yet and her role more like another "Mother" type to look after him. When she said "your ahead of schedule" it became clear that view is rapidly changing. When she revealed her "parts stash" it indicated that she no longer felt it would be necessary to keep secrets from him and that she could start trusting him with her secrets. Her last statement in the ep. "Future John dosn't live here....you do" was more significant than her "locket gift". It was as if she were saying "you are future John..so you decide" when he asked her "what would future John do now?" and also indicating to him that instead of looking at him as a "baby brother" she now admired and looked up to him as a leader. As a result of all this I think John has become fully aware of his responsibility and we will start seeing him act in a much more assertive and self confident fashion as opposed to a snot nosed, whining teenager.

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