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Red John's identity

  • Avatar of Dunkenstein


    [182]Apr 2, 2013
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    At the end of "Behind the Red Curtain" Robert Kirkland (played by Kevin Corrigan) kills Jason Lennon, who might have been able to identify Red John. Could Kirkland be Red John?
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  • Avatar of Beecharm3r2


    [183]Apr 4, 2013
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    That's what my mom thought but I say no for one reason. Jane knew - had met and shook Red John's hand and they way they talked about him it was awhile ago. Plus I got the feeling that Jane liked whomever Red John is. Lorelai said something along the lines as 'I was surprised you weren't best friends' or something like that... so I think in the least, Jane and Red John are 'friendly' or at least interact on a semi-regular basis.
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  • Avatar of GreenRichard


    [184]Apr 5, 2013
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    It's Van Pelt

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  • Avatar of Abo_Malek


    [185]May 6, 2013
    • member since: 09/15/12
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    Gale Bertram, Raymond Haffner, Thomas McAllister: one of this three is red john probably Raymond

    - Bret Stiles: is probably an old friend

    - Reede Smith: i don't think he is connected to red john

    - Bob Kirkland: i don't think he is red john but his right hand man

    - Sheriff Thomas McAllister: i don't think that he related to RJ at all, he only appeared in the first episode and wasn't that special(but who knows, there is no evidence that he isn't RJ, but if he was it will really be a bad decision from the writer)

    - Brett Partridge: i don't think he is red john but maybe a one of his minions, besides he is to young to be in the red john(The Red Barn 1980 Incident ), and Bruno Heller stats in an interview that red john isn't a basement kind of serial killer(which Brett seems to be, as remarked by Jane in S01E01) and he also doesn't seem to have the money red john seems to have, he also isn't that high in the society or work as Red John seems to be

    - Gale Bertram: i just don't think he is red john, for a lot of tiny details that don't add up

    - Raymond Haffner: He fits all the criteria so fa, he is high ranking member of the CBI,a Visualize member, and after the evidence from "The Red Barn" it seems possible he was at the farm in 1988 when one of the first Red John smiley faces was drawn. He fits the age, description, seems to have money, and mental intelligence, he is also interested in Lisbon and tries to befriend her (if he was red john that is probably what he would do), and most of all he is called ray, and we know that red john nickname is Roy !!

    - None of the above (His father, someone else): i don't think that he is none of the above because if he wasn't i think he would probably mocked Jane about it in the video at the end (also he said, that because of what Lorelei said to Jane, the game rules is going to change, so if what she said was wrong he wouldn't really bother), and it isn't Jane's father because he was a fraud and didn't have a problem with it, unlike red john who seems to be a man of honor in a way (S01E01, the note he leave's to Jane about killing his family) but i think that his father may be one of red john's minions

    - JANE HIMSELF !!:that''s not possible for a thousand reason:

    1- he isn't a Visualize member

    2- he doesn't have the fucking time(he was awake for a whole weak during this episode he couldn't have killed the victim

    3- he can't possibly handshake himself

    4- Lorelei wouldn't lie to him (about handshaking RJ) and in the same time plan to kill his alter ego "RJ" for killing his sister

    5- 6- 7- 8- 9- (i am just tired of writing)

    And about how he did know about the "Happy Memory", i think at some point red john hypnotized Jane(He was with alone for some time in one of the episodes) into telling him god knows what, Or Jane's father Alex maybe one of RJ's minions or at least his related to him somehow and he spoke with RJ about that "Happy Moment" in Jane's life

    but what is really wired how did he know the list, there is a few explanation:

    1- he is watching him all the time or making someone watch him and he deducted the 7 names from what he learned

    2- the video is edited and is made/edited after Bob Kirkland(who is related or is RJ) saw what Jane was working on in his secret hideout, and deducted the names from what he gathered and edited the video that he made of Lorelei and put the names in it

    3- something else (But certainly Not PSYCHIC related)

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  • Avatar of Beecharm3r2


    [186]May 7, 2013
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    I need to watch old episodes to get a refresher on a couple of the potential Red Johns... I still have more opinions on the subject though:

    Jane's father - I still think he has some involvement. But he's not Red John. As mentioned above, he's probably a minion.

    - I think I've officially ruled out Jane's father. It seems like the latest RJ events are too contradictory to with how Jane's father was. - Brett Partridge - Um...not him. For one, Jane never liked him. Thinks he's a 'ghoul'. Never would be 'best friends'... Plus, after the last confrontation at a crime scene, Jane's comments apparently struck a cord with him. Brett was trying to -in the latest episode - show Jane that yes, while he's fascinated with the case, he's not fit to be talking about Red John. He basically was showing that he respected Jane and that he wasn't going to get in his way. Jane obviously still doesn't like him but come on, don't most medical examiners look at crime scenes or bodies along the same lines as Brett does? With fascination... my opinion. I personally like the way they wrote Brett and considering how the show does things, I can see Jane ruling him out as RJ then we find his dead body... Then of course there is the fact that Brett ALWAYS thinks the RJ crime scenes are fake when the real RJ would be (in his position) be like "I'm sure this is Red John because of the way the body is cut up..." (Or something like that).

    - Kirkland - my mother still thinks it's him but he only met Jane recently. That doesn't make sense. I do however, agree with Abo_Malek, that he's probably RJ's right hand man.

    - Bertram - I'm starting to think that he ISN'T involved. Due to the fact that they're making him more 'friendly' this season and because it's an incredibly obvious guess. Most people who watch this show seem to suspect him at one point or another. I thin, where Bertram is concerned, maybe he's just a character that is either easily bribed or ignores signs that RJ is around. It doesn't necessarily mean he's RJ or evil. At one point I suspected Laroche but after last week, I ruled him out. - Brett Stiles - RJ's friend/minion

    - Haffner - RJ's minion

    "Red John is Mar" - looking back at this quote, the only names (which isn't on the list) that sounds like any of the characters on the show are: 1) Lorelai Martins. The first three letters of her last name MAR. But now that she's dead, that obviously isn't right. 2) Judge MANchester (could be 'RJ is MAN... not 'mar'). Was only in 3 episodes but I think the most recent one was this year where he was playing poker with Lisbon and Bertram. 3) Agent MARtinez - um...I don't remember him at all but I looked up the list of characters on imdb so...that's where I got his name. Don't even know if his character is still alive. 4) Agent Gabe MANcini - (played by Ivan sergei). I personally don't think this is him at all. Jane annoyed him too easily and it would seem out of character.

    Of these four, I'd be more inclined to choose Judge Manchester as a suspect because he's powerful. But we don't even know IF the quote above is referring to name or just a description.

    Red John is... MAR-shal? A US Marshal? Do we know any?
    Red John is... MAR-red? Marred as in disfigured? Any disfigurement on the show? I don't think so... Don't know what else 'MAR' or 'MAN' could stand for and it's giving me a headache so I'm not going to think about that anymore.

    I do however, think that the list of suspects RJ revealed to be the ones that Jane had, becaues of Kirkland. He did snoop around Jane's room & had all Jane's info so it's easy enough for him to arrive at the same conclusion and pass it along to Red John. We don't KNOW for sure that Red John is on the list of 7 people. It seems to me that Jane is just thinking about RJ and him meeting up after his wife and daughter were killed. What if RJ knew Jane from before? As for RJ being psychic? No way, that's just a way to screw with Jane. did he know about Jane's happy memory if he didn't tell anyone? It's simple:

    1) Jane's Diary - it hasn't been seen in awhile but if Kirkland was snooping around, taking pictures of the trail Jane was following, what's not to say he didn't find Jane's diary and snapped pictures of the pages as well? What if Jane wrote in there somewhere, on the 'happy memories' he tries to think about when he's depressed? or,
    2) Jane's father (or anyone from his travelling days) could be a possible minion - could have remembered that time in Jane's life and told Red John all about it. RJ could have used that to his advantage.

    I personally think it's more likely, in this case, to be #1 - Jane's Diary. It's his thoughts and now RJ's in Jane's head even more. Perfect way to mess with him.
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  • Avatar of Abo_Malek


    [187]May 8, 2013
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    RJ is one of the 7 names according to show creator "Bruno Heller", he also said that the next season there will be no more games, and jane is going to start the chase for RJ for real

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  • Avatar of michalisthiou


    [188]May 13, 2013
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    the episode 'the red barn' helps us exclude some characters as being red john

    if we trust the theory that says that red john was at that barn 25 years ago then partridge is too young to be red john, and janes dad is too old, not to mention that he probably was with patrick at the time or at the very least traveling with the circus

    obviously also not brett styles, he was already the powerful man at visualize at the time while the person that drew the smiley face on the side of the barn was just some kid that was working there briefly

    its obvious that brett styles knows who red john is, probably because red john is/was a member of visualize

    I actually find merit in the theory that red john is more than one person, there have been too many characters that have been cast in a suspicious light

    bertram quoting william blake, styles knowing where fry was, kirkland killing a person that knew red john

    its seems unlikely that they would provide so many clear red john suspects. maybe they are building up to the fact that red john is like a secret society/fraternity of sociopaths that have infiltrated powerful positions in society and enjoy murdering people and messing with their minds

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  • Avatar of Tibor_Hu


    [189]May 14, 2013
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    Hi, I think Abo_Malek made some good points. I actually don't remember who Thomas McAllister, this FBI Reed guy were, till I didn't look it up now.

    Still, I think the writers and producers managed to make this season 5 very exciting, and they have confused the audience. I think I have figured a few things out, but I have no idea who Red John is. This is how it goes. How the hell does Red John know the 7 people on Jane's list? well, this is - in my opinion quite simple. Kirkland organized the break in in to Jane's CBI "base".

    He put everything together Jane had - then it was quite simple to deduce everything Jane has deduced. This is where all becomes quite interesting. Jane had a toothpick put up on the door when he left - Jane knew that Lisbon will have coffee with Kirkland, since he asked Lisbon afterwards, what did Kirkland want?- and when he came back after the new case they had, he saw that the toothpick was moved, so he knew there was a break in. He wasn't surprised, he didn't freak out, he smiled. He did not alert Lisbon, that oh my god somebody broke in ... That makes me believe that he expected the break in, and he was happy about it. After that he worked even harder on his "list" or whatever he was working on, we don't know that anymore. he did have his 1 week radio silence, and when he was done he burned everything. What was the reason for burning everything down, if Kirkland has already stolen his information. If he did burn down everything, that means that he he had something new there, and THAT he did not want anybody to see.

    That with killing a memory from Jane's head, that's weird. I can't explain that. So what Abo_Malek is saying about Jane's father knowing Red John, seems a possibility, but this was rather a private memory, so the hypnosis is also a theory, but I'm not sure about that, seems somehow wrong, after Heller and co. is putting everything so beautifully down for us, they wouldn't have (shouldn't have) kept that from us. On the other hand, what I can deduce from this whole thing is, Jane showed on purpose to Red John what he had. That was faked, so Red John thinks he has given yet another huge blow to Jane. Jane on the other hand is for the first time really the man with the upper hand, because he faked the information. Lisbon is not in the loop, she also thinks Jane was tricked/fooled by Red John. So, that means Jane is planning something unknown for us so far, and this is what's going to make the next season ever more exciting.

    Guys, what do you think how far off am I ?

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  • Avatar of elviswife


    [190]May 18, 2013
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    I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to lay out their theories for us fans to mull over. Frankly, it's nice to get a break from all the RJ haters, out there. I can't wait for next season. I think we can expect a lot of twists, turns, cat-and-mouse plotlines, intense surprises, and mysteries finally revealed! The heart and soul of this show has always been for me, Jane's tortured soul. This is what gives his character depth, and keeps him someone that we never come to dislike, despite his insensitive treatment of Lisbon, the CBI team, and others, week after week. We keep in mind that he's dealing with a fractured psyche, a broken heart, and an absolutely obsessive need to seek justice for his murdered family. At the heart of it all is an evil genius with an equally obsessive hatred for Jane. We don't know exactly why or how it began, but it grows, season to season, and we can feel the confrontation between these two, growing more and more iminent. For me, this is what brings me back, each week. Apparently, I'm in the minority, here on the forums, but I look forward to the episodes that reveal another piece of the RJ puzzle, and wish that the writers would be more consistent in that regard. If they had just done a better job of mixing the "crime of the week" with the bigger RJ backstory, in each episode, then I think viewers wouldn't find it so intrusive and jarring when an episode chose to deal with RJ. I think most folks here would agree with me that next season is probably going to be the last, and we're really going to see some of the best episodes the show has ever produced. For those complaining and claiming that they're not going to watch the show anymore, they're NUTS, with all due respect. They're going to miss seeing everyone at the top their game, from the writers to the cast members. They're going to miss the payoff to what we've been working towards for 6 years, and I just can't see how they could bail out, now. Oh well...

    Keep all the great RJ theories coming, guys. This is going to be my Mentalist fix, during the next few long months, while I wait for the 6th and best season to begin!
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  • Avatar of abrase


    [191]May 29, 2013
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    If Red John is one of the seven on the list (prior to the list I thought it was CBI Ron), he is likely Gale Bertram. Here's why:

    Physical Features:
    -The shadow on the barn in Red John's Footsteps appears to be of a somewhat tall, bulky, bald (or short-haired) man.
    -Check out Bertram's hand and Roy's Hands (when he visits Rosalind); they are similar, perhaps identical (hard to tell).
    -The cop car at the end of 'the crimson hat' that speeds off is thought to be driven by Red John. The figure is bulky-looking.

    -Red John and Patrick are supposed to be similar. Patrick even says in one episode that Bertram can read people, but he chooses to catch his flies with vinegar instead of honey anyway.
    -Bertram admires when others can 'best' him (Lisbon using the media to gain an advantage, Jane tricking Haffner to get Lisbon back, Jane 'getting away with murder' in court).
    -RJ is supposed to be like Moriarty to Sherlock Holmes. Bertram is cold, well-spoken, serious-minded, in a position of authority, rarely plays the fool, and has a lot of interesting dialogue with Jane. When they play poker together, notice that although Jane discovers why Bertram was losing, Bertram actually beats Jane. Their dialogue is fascinating too. Bertram says that you don't play the cards, you play the person. And Jane comments about how Bertram is a fan of the bluff within a bluff (something RJ seems to do a lot).
    -Red John appears to like poetry. So does Bertram. Bertram quotes a poem by Blake at one point. In his poker game he says, "goodnight moon, goodnight stars, goodnight judge".
    -When Bertram beats the judge he says, "gutted him" to Lisbon. Earlier in the episode, Jane tells the team that the hidden sides of people come out when you talk to them about their passions.
    -In a few scenes, it appears as though Bertram can 'read' people and situations, similar to the way Patrick does, but it's not as blatant or obvious. He's also a good manipulator himself (like the way he handles things with Alexa).

    -Red John is known to work with an accomplice at times. He did this early in his career and has used moles in various occasions. Bertram seems to be partnered with Robert Kirkland. In one scene Kirkland asks about Lisbon, "can WE trust her?" and Bertram says, "hah, can WE trust anyone?" I think Kirkland is his partner in this.
    -In Strawberries and Cream, when Patrick first suspects Bertram as the mole in the CBI he asks Bertram to go with him to the mall in order to set Bertram up. Bertram says ok, then almost immediately changes his mind. Then, as if thinking about it for a second, changes his mind back again and says, "ok" again. He then proceeds to make a phone call. Could he have been calling Timothy Carter? (How else would Carter know to be at the mall?)
    -When Bertram and Patrick first meet, Bertram knows who Patrick is already and mocks him somewhat by calling him 'the boy wonder', in a kind of dismissive way. Then when Patrick screws with the security guard, Bertram has a slight grin on his face, as though he thinks it's amusing.
    -In Strawberries and Cream, when Jane tells Bertram that he thinks Red John has a mole in the CBI, Bertram says, "good lord, this man's a prodigy". I think that's an interesting/funny thing to say if he is indeed Red John. He's making Patrick appear dumb for thinking there's a mole, while simultaneously giving himself props.
    -Listen to Bertram's voice. Imagine it higher pitched. There are times when he inadvertently speaks slightly higher when pronouncing some words. I feel like he could pull off the RJ voice that we heard in the limo in "the crimson hat". But because his voice is normally not this soft, it's a very good cover for him.

    The Poem:
    -The poem the Tyger that he quotes is about the duality of the lion and the lamb, and how god could make two creatures so vastly different (polar opposites) from one another. Many people have always thought this poem to represent Jane (as he turned from con-man to detective due to the darkness of his family being murdered, thus creating light), but it could just as well refer to Bertram himself. Bertram is a man of the Law (of good) and simultaneously a murderer (evil). Further, at the end of the poem, the poem itself asks the question, "did he who made the lamb, make thee?" (also, "What IMMORTAL HAND OR EYE COULD FRAME THY FEARFUL SYMMETRY). So in a way it is referencing God. Bertram/Red John could see himself as the God who not only IS both good and evil (allows good and evil to happen) but also CREATES good and evil. In this way, Red John sees himself as a god-figure, which ties in with his Ego and his 'sense of justice' for 'turning him down' or 'being blasphemous' towards him. (Remember he said he does not like to be 'slandered' , and in Red Sky in the Morning, he said that he can't tolerate 'cheap imitations of his WORK'. "Did he smile his work to see? Did he who made the lamb make thee?")

    -Lastly, I would imagine that the producers are going to want people to buy the seasons on DVD. I think it would be more interesting to viewers if Red John was someone who interacted with Jane throughout the series. Bertram interacts with Jane THE MOST out of any of the others on the list of seven. Bertram also appears in the beginning of season 3, shakes Patrick's hand on-screen, and plays an antagonistic role with him even in their 'normal' lives. Remember what Lorelei said, that she was surprised they weren't better friends and that the two of them were similar. Jane and Bertram aren't great friends, but they very well could be. And I think they are quite similar in that they are both strong, manipulative personalities.
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  • Avatar of interxavier01


    [192]May 31, 2013
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    What about Red John always being ahead of Jane? The last episode noted that Red John is always one step ahead of Jane because he has 'powers'. This could mean that Red John has an accomplice in Lisbon's team. It's a possibility because it's the only logical reason why he can predict what Jane has been doing all this time.
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  • Avatar of Mysterv


    [193]Jun 12, 2013
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    Random thoughts.

    Just because Patrick and Red John have the same list of seven names does not mean that the list is correct. Red John could still be a step ahead and planted false clues that led Patrick to those suspects. That could help explain how Red John came up with his list.

    Knowledge about Patrick means that either Red John knew Patrick way back when or has done a lot of investigating about Patrick's past. I lean toward his having known him from his Carney days.

    Motivation of Red John suggests some strong personal ties to Patrick, either directly or ties to someone close to Patrick. Why is Patrick so important to Red John?

    Any ideas?

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  • Avatar of llismar


    [194]Aug 19, 2013
    • member since: 08/19/13
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    If you look at the wall in this scene at the end of Red Johns Friends, the cross of the H is not blood but the joint in the tile. It actually says ll is mar and then appears to trail off. I think it is two L's and not an H. I wonder if we will know all the right answers to clues at the end of this series. There is also the guy that scuttles across in back of the guard that gets killed in Strawberries and Cream part two. He is seen walking all over the mall, talking to the coffee girl and the fake red john looks right at him before he is shot. I believe that is RJ. I also noticed that the person who recited Tiger,Tiger has very small hands when (s)he taps Jane on the shoulder, possibly Lisbon. He left her a message that he was at that location. She is definitely involved with RJ.

    Here is a link to the pic

    Edited on 08/19/2013 4:37pm
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  • Avatar of pennycline1


    [195]Sep 30, 2013
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    I think Gale Bertram is RJ, because that is how he stays one step ahead of Jane and Lisbon. Jane always makes a point of saying Lisbon is a bad liar. She is reporting everything they do to Bertram, thinking it is the right thing to do, since he is her boss. Now in the last episode, RJ kidnaps her. Jane has tipped her off that Bertram is one of the suspects, which changes the game between them. She is nervous around him now and doesn't reveal things to him, now she is just in the way. (Or that could be just what Bruno wants us to think before the twist??)

    If McCalister is RJ, that would seem silly to me, since he is not a regular on the show. But Haffner could be RJ's right hand man, although by now I am sure he would love to give that job up; although he knows the only way out is death. Brett Stiles may even know Bertram is RJ, but is in the same boat as Haffner and knows if he told anyone he would die before Bertram could be stopped. He is also in a position to need favors from Bertram to keep quiet.

    I can hardly wait for the next episode! This show is the best.

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  • Avatar of BidomoOrigina


    [196]Oct 3, 2013
    • member since: 12/26/11
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    GreenRichard wrote:

    It's Van Pelt

    That's obvious!

    Now, more seriously, I still believe is Brett Partridge, he is now conveniently dead, so, it could play in his favor...

    Bertram, I don't know, Kirkland asked for full cooperation, so he might be asking if they're to be trusted, but Kirkland is involved with RJ, and that's a fact, Homeland security with big FBI influences...

    Styles knows for sure

    RJ being many people or a society, well, they always use the same artist to paint the signature face... it's possible.

    Van Pelt, she makes a lot more sense, but I don't know why....

    As for the father, maybe is not him, maybe is someone who was taught by his father after he left, that's why RJ knows a lot about Jane, and the father's hatred could have been passed down to the apprentice...
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